←2017-08-21 2017-08-22 2017-08-23→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:00:48 <wob_jonas> https://icfpcontest2017.github.io/post/lightning-one/ -- status update about judging the ICFP contest 2017, somewhat disappointing because they're still very early in the process
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01:58:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[(0)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52887 * B jonas * (+6867) Created page with "'''(0)''' is a family of programming languages by [[David Madore]] defined in the 2017-08 blog entry [http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2017-08-18.2460.html Un peu de prog..."
02:00:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52888&oldid=52886 * B jonas * (+10) Add (0), also fix some of the asciibetisation
02:01:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52889&oldid=52878 * B jonas * (-73)
02:02:00 <alercah> this is a super nomicy act: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/06l21?search=leap#BK0
02:02:16 <alercah> " If a provision conferring power on a person or entity to make a regulation is amended, or repealed and replaced, so as to confer the power or substantially the same power on a different person or entity, the second person or entity has power to revoke, amend or replace the regulation made by the first one. "
02:03:56 <LKoen> was this enacted after an ex-president complaining to the new one "dude, stop undoing what I did"
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02:05:55 <wob_jonas> I hope this time I didn't accidentally create an esolang that's substantially different from the one David described. That was an embarrassing although interesting error.
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02:08:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
02:08:55 <oerjan> the ICFP contest is, like, over.
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02:46:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * UtilityHotbar * New user account
02:51:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52890&oldid=52837 * UtilityHotbar * (+181) /* Introductions */
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02:54:09 <shachaf> oerjan: How come no olist today?
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03:00:29 <oerjan> shachaf: the olist has been eclipsed hth
03:02:23 <oerjan> another totally human new user, i see
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03:15:21 <oerjan> `? rdocco
03:15:23 <HackEgo> Rdocco Coffee is a well-known brand of coffee in Universe M-7, and does not contain a highly lethal substance engineered to cause bullet time and addiction.
03:15:34 <oerjan> `forget rdocco
03:15:35 <HackEgo> Forget what?
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03:23:02 <oerjan> @tell TieSoul <TieSoul> how does that restriction make any semblance of sense <-- random guess: they want to make sure people don't use their email as password.
03:23:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:28:53 <shachaf> `hurl
03:28:53 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
04:25:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52891 * UtilityHotbar * (+4263) Created page with "==B1NARY== *No Hello world program available* B1nary is a language developed while UtilityHotbar was attempting to create a tally/prediction machine for use as an example intr..."
04:26:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52892&oldid=52891 * UtilityHotbar * (+40)
04:28:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52893&oldid=52892 * UtilityHotbar * (+48)
04:28:01 <Warrigal_> `? kerbal
04:28:02 <HackEgo> kerbal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:28:15 <Warrigal_> `? space
04:28:16 <HackEgo> Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
04:29:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52894&oldid=52893 * UtilityHotbar * (+86)
04:31:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52895&oldid=52894 * UtilityHotbar * (+35)
04:31:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52896&oldid=52895 * UtilityHotbar * (+9) /* Introduction */
04:32:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52897&oldid=52896 * UtilityHotbar * (-34) /* B1NARY */
04:32:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52898&oldid=52897 * UtilityHotbar * (+1) /* Introduction */
04:33:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52899&oldid=52898 * UtilityHotbar * (+2) /* Output */
04:33:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52900&oldid=52888 * UtilityHotbar * (+13) /* B */
04:35:05 <oerjan> `? program
04:35:06 <HackEgo> A program is an image created by means of prography.
04:35:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52901&oldid=52899 * UtilityHotbar * (+2) /* B1NARY */
04:35:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52902&oldid=52901 * UtilityHotbar * (+9) /* Introduction */
04:36:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52903&oldid=52902 * UtilityHotbar * (+48) /* B1NARY */
04:37:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52904&oldid=52903 * UtilityHotbar * (+16) /* Output */
04:39:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52905&oldid=52904 * UtilityHotbar * (+254) /* Counter manipulation and the trash function */
04:39:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52906&oldid=52905 * UtilityHotbar * (+3) /* Counter manipulation and the trash function */
04:43:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52907&oldid=52906 * UtilityHotbar * (+10) /* == */
04:43:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52908&oldid=52907 * UtilityHotbar * (+44) /* Basic commands: */
04:44:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52909&oldid=52908 * UtilityHotbar * (+4) /* Conditions */
04:45:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52910&oldid=52909 * UtilityHotbar * (+17) /* Syntax and Commands */
04:55:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52911&oldid=52910 * UtilityHotbar * (+9631)
04:56:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52912&oldid=52911 * UtilityHotbar * (-32) /* Interpreters: */
04:58:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52913&oldid=52912 * UtilityHotbar * (-75) /* Interpreters: */
05:01:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52914&oldid=52913 * UtilityHotbar * (+0) /* Interpreters: */
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05:06:43 <shachaf> `? oerjan
05:06:44 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
05:06:48 <shachaf> oerjan: What was the third pun?
05:06:59 <shachaf> `? password
05:07:00 <oerjan> ask boily
05:07:00 <HackEgo> The password of the word is unacceptably delayed
05:07:07 <oerjan> wat
05:07:15 <oerjan> `dowg password
05:07:22 <HackEgo> 11155:2017-08-16 <oerjän> learn The password of the word is unacceptably delayed \ 11081:2017-07-11 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is blowin\' in the wind. \ 10981:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10980:2017-06-02 <shachäf> revert \ 10979:2017-06-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is out of date tdnh \ 10898:2017-05-14 <boi
05:07:37 <oerjan> `slwd password//s, word, month,
05:07:40 <HackEgo> password//The password of the month is unacceptably delayed
05:08:13 <oerjan> was that a pun? if so i didn't notice it.
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05:08:29 <oerjan> (i think he meant something else though)
05:09:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:UtilityHotbar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52915 * UtilityHotbar * (+102) Created page with "Random guy, came through to add my experimental half-baked esolang to the mix. See here --> [[B1nary]]"
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05:34:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[B1nary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52916&oldid=52914 * UtilityHotbar * (+17) /* Counter manipulation and the trash function */
05:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52917&oldid=52890 * UtilityHotbar * (+218) /* Introductions */
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09:56:42 <mertyildiran> Hi, I have created this program (https://github.com/DragonComputer/Swarm/blob/master/swarm.py) which is an interpreter for an esoteric language that I designed to be able to support random program generation.
09:58:16 <mertyildiran> Language's state is currently draft and it consists of 360 (which can be change in the future) atomic instructions.
09:59:26 <mertyildiran> This file contains a self-replicating program (https://github.com/DragonComputer/Swarm/blob/master/replicate.code)
10:02:10 <mertyildiran> My purpose was designing a logic to provide evolutionary improvements over the generated programs. But I'm failing to get a successful result. There are two main problems here;
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10:03:25 <mertyildiran> 1 - Generated random programs are too random and useless that it seems like they will never be able to reach to a useful state.
10:06:35 <mertyildiran> 2 - I was planing the use threading to provide a competitive ecosystem for the programs that the goal is the program with the most system resource consumption is the program that be able to replicate itself most.
10:08:00 <mertyildiran> But seems like operating system's max thread limit is an issue and the logic of my program for generating a competitive environment is failing.
10:10:00 <mertyildiran> Could someone desire to collaborate in such an idea like combining automatic program generation and evolutionary algorithms? Because I desperately need help :/
10:12:43 <mroman> http://codepad.org/nrx1ufya
10:12:44 <mroman> muahahah!
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10:14:18 <mertyildiran> you can try to use it by `python swarm.py` command it will generate random programs on the same directory.
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10:17:59 <mroman> http://codepad.org/p96yiH4x
10:18:04 <mroman> now nobody can out bfderivative me
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10:24:41 <mroman> http://codepad.org/Fd2NsMyX
10:28:12 <mroman> oh there's a bug
10:43:44 <mroman> http://codepad.org/kANZH82k
10:43:50 <mroman> ok now cellptr ops in it
10:53:26 <mroman> mertyildiran: I tried to do what you're doing
10:53:28 <mroman> but the problem is
10:53:40 <mroman> "local optima"
10:53:58 <mroman> for example let's say you want to write a program that can NOT a binary digit 1 -> 0, 0 -> 1
10:54:08 <mroman> a program that produces 0 for all inputs will be "fairly" good
10:54:13 <mertyildiran> mroman: it's not even optimizing a little bit. Its state is far from machine learning.
10:54:36 <mroman> and every change to the const 0 program will temporarily make it worse
10:54:44 <mroman> so you'll never end up with a better program through random mutations alone
10:54:51 <mertyildiran> mroman: did you run the swarm.py file?
10:54:56 <mroman> no
10:55:12 <mroman> thus proving that creationists were correct in saying the eye is too complex to have evolved .
10:55:14 <mroman> :D
10:55:17 <mertyildiran> OK try to run then you will see the result on your terminal.
10:56:20 <mroman> what does it even do?
10:56:45 <mertyildiran> mroman: creates random programs and run them.
10:56:54 <mroman> and what's the point in that?
10:57:03 <mertyildiran> mroman: you have a linux based system right?
10:57:06 <mroman> yes
10:57:14 <mertyildiran> mroman: OK then you can try.
10:57:37 <mertyildiran> mroman: the point is creating a general purpose program generation.
10:58:06 <mroman> for what?
10:58:18 <mertyildiran> mroman: there is no practical purpose
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10:59:27 <mertyildiran> mroman: look there are 2 main problems. I have a solution for the first one.
11:01:03 <mertyildiran> mroman: I will create a statistical data from top 10 best Python projects to find out the frequency distribution of the Python keywords and standard libraries.
11:02:04 <mertyildiran> mroman: and generate instructions according to that distribution data. For example print 0.08, if 0.05, while 0.03 etc.
11:02:30 <mertyildiran> mroman: so that the program will not be too random.
11:02:42 <mertyildiran> mroman: but for second problem I have no solution.
11:02:56 <mertyildiran> mroman: I'm simply unable to create a competitive environment.
11:03:17 <mertyildiran> mroman: operating system and some low level implementations are blocking my way.
11:03:57 <mertyildiran> mroman: also the overall logic is not certain in my mind.
11:06:15 <mertyildiran> mroman: I mean how we can define success and failure for a computer program? I tried to use "if there is an error in the program then it's a failure and don't replicate itself" but the error rate is too high that no program is able to survive.
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11:27:28 <rdococ> hello, fellow members of homo sapiens! I have not been abducted and replaced with an exact replica of myself whose job is to act, look, and even think like me while being under the control of evil aliens!......wait.
11:28:11 <int-e> rdococ: as long as you act and think the same, nobody's gonna care.
11:28:59 <rdococ> good, because that means the non-existent aliens will not be unable to carry out their plan of enslaving humanity! not mw not ha not ha!
11:31:27 <mertyildiran> rdococ: hi, my name is John Titor and I'm not a time traveller just an ordinary person. Nice meet with a non-alien person.
11:31:45 <mertyildiran> *Nice to meet...
11:32:27 <rdococ> heh
11:33:37 <rdococ> Concept: a goto system that supports implicit longjmp without having to declare that you want to jump longly
11:33:46 <rdococ> so sort of like continuations, I guess?
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11:34:30 <rdococ> hi boily.
11:34:57 <rdococ> really, the way I could see something like that working is a construct that declares a global variable set to the continuation of a block, and then executes that block
11:35:15 <rdococ> e.g. { stuffBeforeLabel } label abc; stuffAfterLabel;
11:35:26 <rdococ> abc would be defined as the continuation as stuffBeforeLabel.
11:36:05 <rdococ> which would, coincidentally, transfer control flow to the beginning of stuffAfterLabel.
11:41:12 <mroman> Somebody has Capgras?
11:45:36 <mroman> hm.
11:46:40 <boily> rdochelloc, mrelloman.
11:51:40 <rdococ> hello.
11:51:43 <APic> Heya
11:51:47 <rdococ> boily detected.
11:52:43 <rdococ> concept: functions which have access to not only their continuations, but... well... it's hard to explain, but it's the opposite of a continuation :P
11:53:13 <rdococ> so they have access to their continuation (continues execution) and their, well, history...?
11:55:04 <mroman> i DID IT
11:55:05 <mroman> I think.
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11:55:33 <mroman> http://codepad.org/Vxk0UKmP <- this oughta work to emulate a 4bit flip flop
11:55:36 <mroman> well
11:55:43 <mroman> 4x 1 bit flip flops
11:55:51 <mroman> that are addressable
11:57:23 <mroman> ah fuck
11:57:23 <mroman> no
11:57:31 <mroman> nah forget it
11:57:39 <mroman> this just allows you to store cell[adr] = adr
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12:23:23 <mertyildiran> Did anyone write an answer to my questions?
12:28:55 <zseri> which one?
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12:31:30 <mroman> success or failure of a program
12:31:36 <mroman> do you have an expected output?
12:31:44 <mroman> then you calculate the derivation from the output
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12:33:18 <mroman_> for random programs...
12:33:19 <mroman_> well
12:33:24 <mroman_> some of them might not even terminate
12:33:24 <mroman_> so
12:33:33 <mroman_> and you never know whether they will terminate or run forever
12:33:43 <mroman_> so that depends on what you consider success
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12:41:09 <mroman_> and yes, forking a lot of threads will fuck up the OS scheduling
12:41:10 <mroman_> and resources
12:41:49 <mroman_> also python internal threads are only useful for I/O heavy things afaik
12:42:00 <mroman_> because executing python byte code takes a global lock
12:42:20 <mroman_> so unless you have threads waiting for I/O there's pretty much no benifit in having multiple threads afaik
12:43:48 <mertyildiran> mroman_: in nature lack of resources cause the elimination. Organism with better DNA survives. Computers have also limited resources. How do we implement the same logic with nature's?
12:45:22 <mroman_> uhm...
12:45:26 <mertyildiran> I think the rules of operating system is the main problem here.
12:45:37 <mroman_> if you want to "create" "animals"
12:45:44 <mroman_> then you need to have some environment
12:45:48 <mroman_> that you put programs in
12:45:52 <mroman_> in which they can move around and gather food
12:45:54 <mroman_> otherwise
12:45:57 <mroman_> what's the point?
12:46:27 <mroman_> organism with better DNA survives because they are fitter for a purpose
12:46:33 <mroman_> but what is YOUR purpose?
12:46:38 <mertyildiran> Sure CPython is not a good choice for parallelism but I was looking a completely error free language.
12:46:53 <mroman_> A program that runs long? Then while 1: is the best program anyway
12:47:11 <mroman_> ---> very boring
12:47:44 <mroman_> you might be interested in CoreWars
12:47:46 <mroman_> or BF Joust
12:47:54 <mroman_> programs compete against each other
12:48:14 <mroman_> this way you can evolve programs by letting them fight against each other and take the winner
12:48:23 <mroman_> mutate the winner into 10 new programs and then see if one of thes performs even better
12:48:42 <mroman_> but you need a heuristic function to determine which program is better than another
12:48:56 <mroman_> (which in core wars is how many other programs it can beat)
12:49:19 <mroman_> i.e. if you want to find the fastest brainfuck program to compute 100
12:49:57 <mroman_> then your heuristic function will depend on the amount of cycles it used and how far it is of off producing the number 100
12:50:18 <mroman_> then you create 10 random initial programs, mutate each into 10, run them each and then pick the top 10 of those and repeat
12:50:30 <mroman_> or you use a more genetic approach where you "combine" programs into each other
12:51:28 <mroman_> i.e. instead of creating 100 random version of the top 10 you "breed" these top 10 among each other and then run those
12:52:13 <mroman_> trivially something like while j < len(...): new_dna = dna_parent_a[j] if rand(0,1) == 0 else dna_parent_b[j]
12:52:36 <mroman_> so the new dna is a mix of the two parents dna
12:52:46 <mroman_> not very sufficient
12:52:52 <mroman_> *clever
12:53:05 <mroman_> in practice i think they slice whole regions and also cut/add/extend dna
12:53:17 <mroman_> !bftxt_gen
12:53:20 <mroman_> !help
12:53:20 <zemhill> mroman_: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
12:53:23 <mroman_> hm
12:53:27 <mroman_> ^help
12:53:27 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
12:53:35 <mroman_> `help
12:53:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:53:38 <mroman_> we have too many bots
12:53:48 <mroman_> `run ls /
12:53:52 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
12:53:55 <mroman_> `run ls /bin
12:53:56 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chacl \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ getfacl \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ jo
12:54:08 <mroman_> `run ls opt
12:54:08 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access opt: No such file or directory
12:54:13 <mroman_> `run ls /opt /usr/bin
12:54:18 <HackEgo> ​/opt: \ \ /usr/bin: \ [ \ 2to3 \ 2to3-2.6 \ 2to3-2.7 \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ aot-compile \ appletviewer \ apropos \ apt \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ ar \ ar
12:54:30 <mroman_> hm
12:55:08 <mroman_> `genbf moo
12:55:09 <HackEgo> fold: invalid number of columns: ‘moo’
12:55:13 <mroman_> `genbf 10
12:55:14 <HackEgo> ​,<+,.,>-+>
12:55:23 <mroman_> hm
12:56:20 <mroman_> `döts brainfuck
12:56:21 <HackEgo> bräïnfück
12:56:27 <mroman_> right.
12:56:39 <mertyildiran> mroman_: yeah that's also a good question, an endless loop is the most resource heavy thing. Isn't a window driven program's root level code an endless loop?
12:57:18 <mroman_> depends on the architecture.
12:57:28 <mroman_> if you poll events then yes
12:57:50 <mroman_> if you use some kind of ipc signaling
12:57:52 <mroman_> then not necessarily
12:58:22 <mroman_> an endless busy loop is
12:58:39 <mroman_> but an endless while 1: sleep(100101001980901010191801) is not that resource heavy
12:58:56 <mertyildiran> mroman_: there is no clear goal in biological evolution so we should define a rule that governs all kind of programs.
12:59:09 <mroman_> there is a clear rule
12:59:14 <mroman_> reproducing and surviving
12:59:20 <mroman_> well "clear"
12:59:39 <mroman_> you want to create programs that replicate themselves?
13:00:14 <mroman_> but gotta catch the train
13:00:15 <mroman_> cya
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13:01:02 <mertyildiran> mroman_: reproducing and surviving is not defining the DNA's goal. Environment decides who will survive.
13:01:28 <mertyildiran> mroman_: yes I'm talking about self-replicating programs. The script I show is also self replicating.
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13:09:41 <mertyildiran> mroman_: what I mean an endless loop with a break in some point is the best kind of program possible so that's not a problem. We can implement max execution time for a program like 1 hour to prevent any true endless loop. The problem is what would be the logic of watchful eye for the evolution...
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14:23:07 <zseri> `unidecode ü
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14:38:14 <zseri> `genbf 50
14:38:16 <HackEgo> ​[,.-,-[>-[<.-,<-[>,-]-],.]<-.[.-.+.,]>]-.--<-<>+,-
14:39:18 <izabera> that's stupid code
14:40:11 <izabera> at the very least it shouldn't do -,
14:40:22 <izabera> or end in -
14:40:25 <izabera> or <>
14:40:57 <izabera> can we have a better generator plz?
14:47:11 <zseri> what does genbf do?
14:49:45 <izabera> it cooks pizzas
14:51:00 <TieSoul> `genbf 100
14:51:02 <HackEgo> ​>.<>[+><[+>-.,<,<-<+++]--,<,>[,.,,<<+.[>++,+,.,..[].[]->]-+<>-,[<>><]+,][<+>,--<>+>-,,.-->,+,.<>+]+]
14:51:23 <izabera> come on, [].[]
14:52:26 <izabera> -+<> and -<>+
14:52:31 * izabera is not impressed
14:53:54 <TieSoul> best part is that the program will just output one null character
14:54:20 <TieSoul> and then stop
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15:12:59 <rdococ> heh
15:13:16 <rdococ> idea for `genbf: make it detect and remove redundancies like that
15:14:33 <zseri> e.g. replace <> and +- with nothing.
15:14:47 <rdococ> yeah
15:15:10 <rdococ> and replace -<>+ with nothing too, along with other redundancies like <-+>
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15:15:57 <rdococ> or, better yet, simulate each piece of potentially redundant code to see how redundant it is
15:16:14 <rdococ> , and . are definitely not redundant, but <+-+--+>+-+--+<> is
15:16:41 <rdococ> although that might not work with while loops
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15:24:35 <izabera> `` type genbf
15:24:37 <HackEgo> genbf is /hackenv/bin/genbf
15:24:40 <izabera> `` pwd
15:24:41 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv
15:24:48 <izabera> `` file bin/genbf
15:24:50 <HackEgo> bin/genbf: ASCII text
15:24:57 <izabera> `` paste bin/genbf
15:24:58 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/genbf
15:25:10 <izabera> ew
15:27:59 <izabera> sed -n '.... /foo/b;p;q' -> sed '.... /foo/d;q'
15:28:10 <izabera> anyway
15:28:24 <izabera> what are the odds that a random 50 char string is valid brainfuck?
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16:21:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52918&oldid=37987 * AJF * (+43) /* External resources */
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16:39:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[(0)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52919&oldid=52887 * B jonas * (+133)
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16:44:29 <rdococ> (0_0)
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16:54:52 <Sgeoweb> https://twitter.com/hikari_no_yume/status/900013177026609152
17:12:42 <FireFly> Haha
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17:13:50 <rdococ> Moony!
17:13:54 <int-e> well, there *are* interpreters
17:13:54 <rdococ> How is the universe doing today?
17:14:22 <int-e> . o O ( still bathing in ~4K background radiation )
17:14:47 <int-e> uh, no, it's 2.7K
17:15:50 <moony> rdococ, depends on what part.
17:16:07 <rdococ> is the Andromeda Galaxy okay?
17:16:39 <moony> Well, some of the... Damn i cant even give a prononciation of the species name, are having a all-out war.
17:16:50 <rdococ> Ah.
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17:38:49 <zzo38> izabera: I think to be valid, just the brackets have to match? Other than that, any unrecognized character is OK but ignored.
17:39:21 <\oren\> I cam up with some numbers that work but I don't know why...
17:40:07 <\oren\> I hope the people who make self-driving cars work in a less haphazerd way
17:40:57 <Taneb> They don't
17:42:07 <\oren\> also boost jam can eat a bag of dicks
17:42:33 <izabera> zzo38: sure, i was asking about the odds of balanced brackets
17:42:51 <\oren\> it isn't better than our build system, it just has different problems
17:54:03 <rdococ> moony: I think you're talking about the K'thlh'an and the Þ'eßđ'tħŋen species?
18:02:25 <moony> rdococ, no... maybe.
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18:16:17 <rdococ> hm. how are the P'þan'eæß ðø's getting along?
18:16:29 <rdococ> [ Insert Sudden Microwave Ping! ]
18:16:29 <j-bot> rdococ: Insert (Sudden Microwave Ping ! ])
18:16:50 <rdococ> Oop! Looks like my universe has compiled! I'll see you soon.
18:17:14 * rdococ runs the universe.......and immediately runs into runtime errors. "...Shit."
18:23:26 <shachaf> `olist 1093
18:23:26 <HackEgo> olist 1093: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:27:16 * rdococ recompiles the universe, but then runs into compile-time errors.
18:27:39 * rdococ attempts to fix the errors, but then gets pre-compiletime-errors.
18:28:00 <shachaf> can you recompile yourself into another channel or something
18:30:26 <\oren\> shachaf: what do u think of neural networks
18:30:49 <shachaf> \oren\: Neurons are pretty neat. I don't really know much about them.
18:30:56 <shachaf> Brains are very complicated.
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18:42:08 <kurolox> Uh, hello
18:42:15 <moony> `relcome kurolox
18:42:16 <HackEgo> kurolox: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:42:58 <kurolox> I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but someone else pointed me here. I have a python bot that runs arbitrary code, and I was looking into a way to sandboxing it to make it relatively safe to use. I've been pointed to UMLBox, but I'm having some issues trying to set it up.
18:44:26 <int-e> `welcome kurolox
18:44:27 <HackEgo> kurolox: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:44:36 <int-e> `version
18:44:36 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: version: not found
18:44:44 <int-e> `` uname -a
18:44:45 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
18:45:39 <int-e> kurolox: unfortunately I have no first-hand experience with this. Gregor is the author of umlbox but usually busy with professing and family. fizzie may be your best bet.
18:47:41 <kurolox> I understand. I'll throw him a private chat and see if he can help me. Unfortunately there's not a lot of documentation out there about UMLBox setup. Thanks!
18:48:04 <Phantom_Hoover> gregor has a family?
18:50:11 <int-e> TBH I don't know :P
18:50:21 <int-e> But what else would he spend all this time on?
18:50:36 <shachaf> Most people have families.
18:50:44 <shachaf> I think it's required in order to be born.
18:50:45 <moony> not updating UMLBox, thats for certain
18:58:57 <kurolox> Well, fizzie doesn't seem to be around so I'll leave my specific question here. I'm trying to use linux 3.16.46, so besides extracting that kernel in a folder with the same name inside umlbox files, and editing the makefile to match the version, do I need to do anything else before doing make and install?
18:59:18 <kurolox> it seems like I'm doing something wrong because after that UMLBox complains about the lack of a UML kernel
19:08:35 <moony> Hurray! i made linux 4.12.8 work as UMLBox-kernel
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20:33:02 <\oren\> I use the untitled.js framework. it's 0 bytes minified
20:45:15 <zseri> cool
20:51:04 <rdococ> well, my sj.deltitnu framework is -11 bytes minimized.
20:51:18 <rdococ> s/minimized/minified
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20:56:24 <zzo38> How is that?
21:05:51 <fizzie> kurolox: It's been a while since I set it up. The "umlbox" script is just Python, so it's relatively easy to figure out which paths it checks for the kernel. I think the umlbox Makefile might not have worked out for me, I think I did it semi-manually (make ARCH=um in the kernel directory, and then copied the result to "umlbox-linux"), though on paper just "make && make install" in the umlbox directory
21:05:57 <fizzie> *should* do the trick.
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21:27:11 <kurolox> Hey Fizzle
21:27:14 <kurolox> Thanks for the answer
21:28:05 <kurolox> unfortunately doing make and make install give me some errors due to umlbox-mudem
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21:29:25 <kurolox> Sorry, hexchat crashed
21:29:34 <kurolox> however, here's the output of make, with the errors I get
21:29:36 <kurolox> https://ghostbin.com/paste/992wk
21:31:01 <kurolox> however I'll do it like you said
21:31:16 <fizzie> kurolox: In the file mudem/tcp4.c, add the line #define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 201112L /* for getaddrinfo */ after the existing line #define _POSIX_SOURCE /* for strtok_r */
21:31:33 <fizzie> (At least that's what "hg diff" says I've changed in my local copy.)
21:32:45 <fizzie> That might fix the error Make barfs on. You'll probably also need to install cpio for the command on line 34 of the output to work.
21:33:01 <kurolox> yes, now it builds
21:33:14 <kurolox> well, sort of
21:33:37 <kurolox> it did more than the last time, that's for sure, but now there's another error with the kernel it seems
21:34:01 <kurolox> https://ghostbin.com/paste/xfhap
21:35:14 <kurolox> maybe it's because of the version of the kernel I'm trying to use?
21:35:44 <fizzie> I have a vague notion I might have had to use an older version of GCC to build a 3.x kernel (again, hg diff says I've changed the Makefile to pass "CC=gcc-4.9" to the kernel build step. But I've no idea if the errors you're seeing could be that.
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21:36:21 <kurolox> Hm, should I just use a 4.x kernel?
21:36:52 <kurolox> Honestly I was using 3.16.46 because moony told me that nobody got 4.x to work, but it seems like he did it a few hours ago
21:37:12 <fizzie> I ran into some *other* problems with a modern kernel, but based on his report it's doable.
21:37:18 <kurolox> also, thanks for the help. I haven't thanked you for it.
21:37:27 <fizzie> FWIW the errors you're seeing are probably https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=778157
21:37:36 <fizzie> "Found in version user-mode-linux/3.16-1um-0.1" "Fixed in version user-mode-linux/4.0-1um-0.1"
21:37:47 <fizzie> So, yeah, maybe try 4.x.
21:37:55 <fizzie> If it's painless, maybe I could even update HackEgo one of these days.
21:38:23 <kurolox> Just wondering, which kind of issues have you found in 4.x?
21:39:04 <kurolox> I'll try with 4.12.8, which is the one that moony is using
21:39:09 <moony> fizzie, 4.12.8 worked painlessly for me
21:39:33 <kurolox> well, make also worked painlessly for you
21:39:58 <moony> MoonyTheDwarf
21:39:58 <moony> #3778
21:39:58 <moony> botnet
21:39:58 <moony> Search
21:39:58 <moony> LOAD MORE MESSAGES
21:39:59 <moony> [6:13 PM] Kurolox: hm
21:40:02 <moony> [6:13 PM] MoonyTheDwarf: thats a issue for a kernel hacker(edited)
21:40:05 <moony> err
21:40:06 <moony> wtf
21:40:08 <moony> discord
21:40:10 <moony> y u
21:40:12 <moony> sorry
21:40:21 <kurolox> that was amusing
21:40:26 <moony> i wanted to copy *one* line
21:40:32 <moony> instead it cpies the entire chat history
21:40:42 <moony> <moony> [8:38 PM] BOTlinbut: @MoonyTheDwarf,
21:40:42 <moony> <moony> Linux umlbox 4.12.8-umlbox #1 Tue Aug 22 14:03:49 EDT 2017 x86_64 GNU/Linux
21:41:14 <kurolox> now it's building with 4.12.8
21:41:18 <kurolox> or at least it went further than before
21:41:27 <fizzie> I don't remember what problems I have with a 4.x kernel, but it was also a year ago. Maybe the current version just happened to be a bad one for UML.
21:41:33 <fizzie> s/have/had/
21:41:48 <fizzie> It's a bit of a niche thing.
21:42:03 <moony> yea, UML is
21:42:05 <kurolox> Well, if I find anything I'll try to report it here
21:42:34 <kurolox> but yeah, more than 10 seconds passed and it haven't stopped yet so I'm calling it a sucess for now
21:43:01 <kurolox> I'll bug moony regarding umlbox usage though, so don't worry about me asking stupid questions here
21:43:07 <moony> mk
21:43:43 <moony> kurolox, as its going to be a lang sandbox, you wont need a writeable dir. just do 'umlbox -B <COMMAND>'
21:44:25 <moony> tmp will function as a temporary writable dir inside the sandbox
21:44:31 <moony> by default
21:44:39 <kurolox> hm, but the script I want to sandbox creates files in a specific path
21:44:52 <kurolox> I could change it so it writes them to the writable dir though
21:45:25 <moony> kurolox, dont put the script inside the sandbox, instead, have it call the sandbox
21:45:37 <moony> -B will mount all base mounts, so python will be avaliable
21:49:26 <kurolox> Hey fizzle
21:49:37 <kurolox> remember that thing I told you about not asking you stupid questions because I had moony?
21:49:41 <kurolox> I didn't last even 5 minutes
21:49:48 <moony> lol
21:49:58 <moony> kernel panic i dont understand. :P
21:49:59 <kurolox> Running anything with UMLBox gives me a kernel panic
21:50:03 <kurolox> https://ghostbin.com/paste/kneej
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21:55:40 <wob_jonas> `olist 1093
21:55:41 <HackEgo> olist 1093: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
21:55:54 <shachaf> wob_jonas: already listed hth
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21:57:26 <wob_jonas> is it? I thought I checked the logs. sorry.
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22:08:51 <kurolox> fizzie how does UMLBox calls the kernel? It seems like there might be a problem with "ubda" or something like that with me
22:09:15 <kurolox> at least according to http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/problems.html
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22:17:23 <zzo38> I thought of to make a new kind of XLFD (for use with making up X version 12). You can still use uld XLFD on the same system, and fonts can have multiple names that refer to the same font.
22:20:00 <zzo38> The new format is ":foundry:name:style:spacing:width:height:charset:subsets"
22:20:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like NeWS?
22:20:09 <zzo38> No, I think X is better
22:20:54 <shachaf> Why?
22:22:31 <zzo38> (Actually we can omit the "spacing" field, I think)
22:24:01 <zzo38> The foundry is optional and can be blank. The style is two characters, the first 0 to 3 indicating bold (1 for normal, 2 for bold, 3 for extra-bold), second is "r" or "i" or "o" for slanting, and either or both of them can be "-" instead if unspecified. The width and height are the character cell width/height, and can be blank if they are variable. The charset is a character set name, such as "ascii", "iso8859-1", "iso10646", etc.
22:25:05 <zzo38> The subsets is a list of subsets of the character set that is implemented, which must be in alphabetical order; each one consists of a dot followed by the name followed by another dot (so there are two dots between each pair), and is a single dot by itself if this field is unused.
22:25:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what does X even have to do with this? aren't we all using user-space fonts rendered as graphics in user space to memory buffers which may or may not be direct mappings of video card memory and the rendering may involve graphics card help?
22:26:15 <wob_jonas> fonts are resolved by user-space libraries like the combination of pango, fontconfig, freetype, or other user-space libraries like those
22:26:32 <zzo38> It doesn't need X, and is actually independent of it, although it can still be used with the font loading mechanism of X.
22:27:02 <wob_jonas> and those libraries can even transparently use the same bdf fonts that X used to use
22:27:41 <wob_jonas> or pcf fonts. whichever is the compiled version.
22:28:40 <zzo38> Furthermore, another feature which actually would be part of my version of X 12, that when loading a font you can optionally specify two flags: EnableLigatures, which permits the server to ignore the requirement that a string of multiple characters is the same as all of those character put together, and EnableAntialiasing, which permits the server to ignore the requirement that the character only consists of on/off pixels in the bounding box.
22:29:38 <zzo38> (The EnableLigatures flag is also needed in order to render astral Unicode characters, since they don't fit in 16-bits.)
22:35:35 <zzo38> However, the protocol request to set the font path is now gone (although some implementations may support a ExtensionControl request to control them), and there is no requirement as to how exactly the server loads and implements the fonts; it is not required to implement EnableLigatures and EnableAntialiasing (and if it doesn't, those flags are just ignored). There is no requirement of storing font names either, so an implementation could make up f
22:42:29 <zzo38> (It is still recommended that at least .pcf is supported, although it is not strictly a requirement anymore.)
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22:42:44 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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23:44:56 <fizzie> kurolox: I don't think there's really a one-line answer to that. But it does use an "ubda=..." argument to pass in a "configuration" file (what setup to do and what commands to run) as a virtual block device. The init binary reads the config from there and does what it's told to do.
23:46:53 <zzo38> Has the people other than myself try to think of how to make a (large) computer program that can work even if the cards that the program is punched on are shuffled, for a loading mechanism such as the MIX "Go button" loading mechanism?
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23:59:48 <moony> fizzie, did some tests. 4.12.8 works without issues for me. I'll be waiting for hackego to get upgraded.
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