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00:11:02 <\oren\> the swedish chef goes bork bork bork
00:11:22 <\oren\> the stupid program that eats all memory goes brk brk brk
00:12:46 <rdococ> and the rdococ eats both
00:24:39 <alercah> rdococ: I'm not aware of any languages, but a naive tree data structure will get you that
00:34:46 <rdococ> a pair is kinda like a binary tree if you think hard enough
00:46:00 <rdococ> alercah: is there a program which enables overstrike?
00:50:57 <alercah> rdococ: I don't know if any font rendering really does it these days
00:54:14 <alercah> that said, I'm far from certain there isn't
00:54:21 <alercah> \oren\: does your font do combining characters?
00:54:32 <alercah> rdococ: I mean, you can do a lot with combining characters
00:54:44 <alercah> you can even make regex parse html!
00:59:28 <rdococ> anyway, how about an esolang with string formatting like that? e.g. "b\Bbo\Bol\Bld\Bd, u\B_n\B_d\B_e\B_r\B_l\B_i\B_n\B_e\B_, s\B-t\B-r\B-i\B-k\B-e\B-t\B-h\B-r\B-o\B-u\B-g\B-h\B-"
00:59:28 <rdococ> "\B" could be replaced with something like "^H".
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01:01:22 <rdococ> that formatting system is kinda unwieldy :P
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01:02:32 <rdococ> hm. how about \b for the special backspace, \r for carriage return, and \f for line feed?
01:03:13 <p-> its good bro
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01:06:03 <rdococ> hm. what if \CR was carriage return and \LF was line feed? then the overstriking backspace character would be \BS.
01:06:41 <rdococ> I was also considering ^M for carriage return
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01:09:00 <rdococ> The other idea I had was having reserved variables for BS, CR and LF, and you would use a concatenation operator on them.
01:09:25 <rdococ> e.g. "abc" + CR + "___" would be an easy underlining method.
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01:49:37 <rdococ> Still no italic, though.
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03:33:15 <imode> damnit. I wish redis supported empty keys.
03:33:22 <imode> or rather, empty lists and hashes.
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03:45:32 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> int-e: Did you *have* to post that link? I'm on vacation, I can't afford to get stuck by a flash game for the rest of it. <int-e> fizzie: you can save it for later, when you're back at work
03:45:36 <HackEgo> 1314) <fizzie> int-e: Did you *have* to post that link? I'm on vacation, I can't afford to get stuck by a flash game for the rest of it. <int-e> fizzie: you can save it for later, when you're back at work
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03:56:54 <HackEgo> Bad-tempered people can be recognized by just intonation.
04:19:37 <deltab> rdococ: printf 'h\bh_\bi\n' | less
04:20:39 <deltab> that style of formatting was used sometimes in fortune files
05:03:38 <Sgeo> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d7ywqz/create-a-game-within-a-game-using-shenzhen-io
05:12:09 <oerjan> <rdococ> is there a language where inserting lists into lists is equivalent to inserting each element at the corresponding position? <-- perl
05:12:57 <oerjan> `perl-e print 1,2,((3,4),5)
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05:28:51 <izabera> is there a language where the keys in associative arrays can be any type, including other arrays, functions and whatnot?
05:30:34 <rdococ> I think lua can do that
05:30:56 <rdococ> although it wouldn't really work out because lua tables and stuff are kinda weird
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05:55:00 * oerjan wishes scott aaronson would stop mixing math and politics in the same post.
05:56:22 <oerjan> because the politics ruins the comment sections which are usually so good when there's just math
05:56:45 <Taneb> oerjan, what was the maths about
05:57:10 <oerjan> the latest P vs NP proof attempt by Blum
06:00:43 <oerjan> btw if you haven't spotted the latest astronomy rumor http://www.nature.com/news/rumours-swell-over-new-kind-of-gravitational-wave-sighting-1.22482
06:06:15 <oerjan> relatedly, it may be that without neutron stars, we'd have neither gold nor nuclear bombs...
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06:33:34 <\oren\> FUCK YOU GOOGLE YOU SHIT COMPANY WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS FUCKING UP YOUTUBE
06:33:50 <\oren\> shachaf: fix youtube, it is fucked up
06:35:07 <\oren\> suddenly there are only 4 youtube videos per row, next to abunch of empty space
06:35:23 <\oren\> wtf is that empty space for?
06:38:43 <\oren\> oerjan: you haven't been selected for a "trial" of their new, fucked, layout
06:40:07 <\oren\> apparently they included a "restore old youtube" button
06:40:16 <\oren\> pressing that shit so fast
06:40:34 <rdococ> I just feel like screaming. To everybody.
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06:45:46 <\oren\> shachaf: is google's new motto "we must secure the existence of out ad revenue stream and a future of huge empty white spaces in graphic design"
06:47:31 <\oren\> google is literally hitler
06:49:02 <rdococ> well, to be fair, \oren\, that's an insult to hitler
06:49:07 <shachaf> \oren\: Huh? I haven't worked at Google since 2014.
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06:49:24 <shachaf> And I thankfully never worked on YouTube.
06:49:42 <\oren\> I need to complain to somone!
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06:50:13 <\oren\> this new design was like satan barfed on my screen
06:50:30 <shachaf> Anyway you should see the -- you know, never mind.
06:51:43 <\oren\> shachaf: niconicodouga doesn't fuck up their layout every year
06:52:46 <shachaf> \oren\: Solution: Go work at Google, and then you can complain internally.
06:53:30 <\oren\> shachaf: I thought complaining at google leads to being branded a nazi and fired?
06:54:42 <shachaf> I don't think that happened to anyone I know.
06:54:46 <Hoolootwo> as much as google is bad, I wouldn't quite compare them to hitler and the nazis
06:54:59 <shachaf> And I knew lots of people at Google whose favorite activity was complaining.
06:55:02 <\oren\> Hoolootwo: have you seen the new colors on youtube?
06:55:09 <shachaf> Also you can probably make a lot more money.
06:55:27 <\oren\> Hoolootwo: well they should be tried in the Hague
06:55:37 <Hoolootwo> my roommate's chromecast has an ad 00:01 permanantly stuck in the corner though
06:56:51 <Hoolootwo> it's a personal goal of mine to get tried in the hague, but hopefully not for that
06:57:53 <\oren\> you know I only recently learned that the hague is a city, and not a building
06:58:25 <shachaf> I hear entry level engineer total compensation at Google is ~$180k/year nowadays.
06:59:15 <shachaf> I wonder whether SV wages will keep going up or stay constant or pop.
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07:00:32 <\oren\> shachaf: what is total yearly rent and car in silicon valley?
07:01:22 <shachaf> Car costs aren't all that variable by location in the US, I think.
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07:02:49 <shachaf> Rent is pretty expensive, especially if you want to live by yourself, but I'm not up to date on the numbers.
07:06:28 <Hoolootwo> so is food, and last I was in california, I paid double for gas
07:06:42 <shachaf> Petrol is so cheap in the US that even if you pay double it's fine.
07:07:59 <\oren\> it isn't fine if you're used to getting to work for 3$ on public transit
07:10:05 <shachaf> If you work at one of the big silly valley companies you can get to work for free on the shuttle.
07:11:24 <Hoolootwo> same with basically everything else
07:11:35 <Hoolootwo> if I want to go home, it's $50 round trip at most
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07:12:13 <shachaf> I currently walk to work, 5 minute walk.
07:14:25 <\oren\> I walk home every day. I should walk to work too, but I'm too lazy to walk both ways
07:23:13 <Hoolootwo> yeah, over the past summer, it was 7 minutes from my apartment to the 4th floor office
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08:42:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Härdfïsh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52974&oldid=52960 * Mroman2 * (+48)
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11:39:51 <b_jonas> The fucking links only work if you click on them. They're not actual links you can select with keyboard. Not even with caret browsing.
11:51:42 <int-e> how else do you ensure that your google analytics code is used properly :P
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13:11:54 <b_jonas> wtf, is https://unicode.org down?
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13:12:39 <b_jonas> int-e: hehe. that page doesn't use google analytics though. it does use some facebook thing.
13:20:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I suspect zzo38, he wants to finally establish his own character encoding
13:21:03 <b_jonas> Also, http://www.unicode.org/ is down. I had to check archive.org's copy of the HTML-rendered unicode line break rules.
13:21:27 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, what's that a reply to?
13:21:50 <b_jonas> oh, you mean he's the reason why unicode.org is down?
13:21:51 <int-e> b_jonas: unicode.org being down
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13:22:04 <b_jonas> I don't think that's a reason
13:22:12 <b_jonas> although zzo38 is a good idea, for a different reason.
13:22:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: any reaction to MaRo's spoilers of Unstable (the future un-set)?
13:24:27 <int-e> . o O (Un-icode? )
14:17:40 <moony> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/464ba89ac19cab8fd573ab62c21bbb6b << I hate C. (this is my own code)
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15:22:32 <b_jonas> What the heck is the "role" HTML attribute? I can't find it in https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html or http://w3c.github.io/html/fullindex.html#attributes-table or https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference
15:23:01 <b_jonas> (HTML4 standard, HTML5 draft, Mozilla developer docs HTML respectively)
15:23:34 <b_jonas> ah found: https://www.w3.org/TR/role-attribute/
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17:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Avian * New user account
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17:49:21 <b_jonas> I was looking for translation icon images (used as an icon on webpages to show where you can change the interface or content to a different language) that have a letter A and an あ kana next to each other. Apparently there's another variant of these, which has a 文 hanzi and a letter A.
17:49:48 <b_jonas> I haven't seen that variant yet. I think I prefer Aあ because that's more recognizable to me, but I'm not sure which one is better.
17:50:41 <b_jonas> 文A might work better because that hanzi is common (and so recognizable) in both Chinese and Japanese apparently
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18:10:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52975&oldid=52955 * Avian * (+158) /* Introductions */
18:13:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52976&oldid=47240 * Avian * (+106)
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18:26:54 <b_jonas> I wish bash had some quoting style that lets you easily quote any URL. But alas, apostrophes doesn't work because the URL can contain apostrophe, and double quotes don't work because the URL can contain a dollar sign which is special inside double quotes.
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18:43:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52977&oldid=52266 * JWinslow23 * (+235) Added a Whitespace implementation (heavily golfed; pushing 0 with SSL instead of SSSSL, and a blank label name)
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19:29:29 <shachaf> what an unexpected pattern of behavior
19:31:55 <\oren\> I bet black holes don't really exist
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20:55:28 <moony> rdococ, i assure you, they also blow.
20:55:52 <moony> ...i just realised how that sounds
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21:04:50 <\oren\> "Robert Mugabe denies he cast an ‘evil spell’ on the vice president of Zimbabwe" like, why would he need to deny that
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21:43:50 <wob_jonas> So some of Autstralia has DST, but they use summer time only for approximately five months, not for approximately seven months like much of Europe and the U.S. does. Strange.
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22:10:30 <int-e> wob_jonas: do you mean six months instead of five?
22:11:00 <int-e> (Australia seems to switch on the first Sunday in April and October)
22:11:13 <wob_jonas> no, I mean five months instead of seven
22:12:15 <wob_jonas> from the first Sunday in October to the first Sunday of April is five months of summer time in Australia
22:12:39 <wob_jonas> (and that's just some of Australia, some parts don't use DST at all, which makes sense because they're closer to the equator)
22:12:58 <int-e> it's as close to 6 as you can get
22:13:07 <int-e> (while switching on Sundays)
22:14:21 <wob_jonas> ok, then those parts of Australia have six months. and much of Europe and America have seven.
22:14:28 <wob_jonas> so it's six months instead of seven.
22:14:37 <wob_jonas> that's much less of a difference, I can understand that.
22:14:38 <int-e> (well that last claim of mine wasn't accurate, but close enough for this discussion)
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22:34:49 <\oren\> Daylight savings time is crap anyway. they should jsut change work schedules based on season if light matters
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22:35:27 <\oren\> then it doesn't have to bother office workers like me for whom the sun is largely irrelevant
22:36:53 <wob_jonas> \oren\: but it would be much harder to convince people to change work schedules based on season. For one, it would be more confusing because most clock faces wouldn't show the difference, so you wouldn't be able to tell which schedule you're supposed to follow. A lot of timetables and opening hours labels would have to be reprinted, including ones
22:36:53 <wob_jonas> stickered in very big letters on a supermarket saying "OPEN EVERY SUNDAY 7-15" or something
22:37:33 <wob_jonas> \oren\: and it's supposed to be relevant for office workers too, because the advantages mostly present when you're NOT in the office during normal office hours, but at home or traveling
22:38:38 <wob_jonas> There's still other good arguments for saying DST is crap of course, but I don't think "change work schedules based on season" makes sense.
22:39:25 <wob_jonas> I think I've convinced myself that DST is a good thing at least twice and that DST is a bad thing (in Hungary that is) at least twice at different times, so I'm not sure what to think anymore.
22:40:09 <int-e> I agree; the 1 hour time shift in working schedule *is* the problem I associate with DST.
22:41:26 <int-e> well, the idea that if changing the work schedules instead of doing the DST switch is awful
22:41:56 <wob_jonas> ok, it just wasn't clear if you said you agree with \oren\ or agree with me
22:43:07 <wob_jonas> of course, it still makes sense to use UTC for times that aren't tied to a geographical location or shouldn't be tied to DST, but most human schedules are tied
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22:48:32 <int-e> I do think that DST isn't worth the biannual hassle (and confusion about which countries switch when, if at all).
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22:54:16 <wob_jonas> the "which countries switch when" is not too much of a hassle usually, because different countries often use different time zones anyway, so you have to check timezones already, and most of Europe has DST switch at the same time (Iceland and Russia and Belarus and Turkey don't use DST)
22:54:40 <shachaf> wob_jonas: It's a big hassle because the difference in time zones between countries isn't constant.
22:55:02 <shachaf> Which means that you can't schedule something to happen at a given time in one time zone and have it happen at the same time in another.
22:56:43 <wob_jonas> (and you also can't do that when a region randomly decides to change the timezone from now on, which also happens sometimes, often because of political changes)
23:00:33 <int-e> or tourism, near the date line
23:01:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: tourism near the date line already haves the problem that the timezones are different
23:02:57 <int-e> what problem, it's by design; people get to do things like celebrate New Year's Eve twice.
23:04:18 <\oren\> Then it would be neat to pass a bylaw that in my district, the time zone is officially Italy Time
23:04:56 <\oren\> and therefore you would be able to drink after legal close time
23:05:19 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I was thinking of passing a law that makes the timezone something like six hundred years before UTC for a medieval theme park
23:05:41 <wob_jonas> "drink after legal close time" there are other workarounds for that, but ok
23:06:19 <int-e> that would really mess with AoE deadlines.
23:06:44 <wob_jonas> in most places we don't have rules that limit when you can drink, but rather possibly rules that limit when shops can sell alcoholic drinks
23:06:47 <int-e> (the medieval variant)
23:06:53 <wob_jonas> so the timezone at the store matters
23:07:06 <\oren\> int-e: age of empires?
23:07:29 <int-e> @googe aoe time zone
23:07:31 <lambdabot> https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/aoe
23:08:32 <wob_jonas> hmm, that reminds me, could you get around a legal statute of limitations by getting a region to use a timezone decades into the past, or around a copyright limitation by getting a region to use a timezone a decades into the future?
23:09:59 <wob_jonas> or various exploits related to how old a person is, like opening a bar in a timezone that's a decade into the future so that younger people can drink because they're suddenly over the legal drinking age?
23:10:10 <int-e> just be your own sovereign country outside of the Geneva copyright convention...
23:10:16 <int-e> no need to mess with time zones
23:10:53 <\oren\> int-e: yeah but often individual cities can mess with time zones so it's easier
23:11:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: there are practically no such countries
23:11:30 <wob_jonas> \oren\: can they? I don't think states usually allow that to indidvidual cities
23:13:26 <wob_jonas> the easiest might be to get some small pacific island nation that is already in a not too common timezone to switch to such a crazy timezone, but that doesn't help you with bars or shops where the point is not to travel far, or legal exploits that are tied to an existing country
23:21:39 <int-e> wob_jonas: I think the solution to the original question about statute of limitation is that how you measure absolute times doesn't affect relative times like age (time since birth etc.)
23:22:16 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah, but does any law actually do that? especially laws about drinking age?
23:22:27 <int-e> if you have a local calendar (and that's essentially what you get if you pick a cracy time zone offset), you'll have to convert external dates to local ones or vice versa before doing the comparison.
23:22:45 <int-e> wob_jonas: I expect the laws to talk about age, not dates of birth.
23:23:09 <shachaf> int-e: Don't people wait until midnight to drink or something?
23:23:38 <wob_jonas> yeah, but they check age by checking the date of birth in your id documents and compare it with the current date. this actually matters because many people go to a bar to drink on their birthday when they reach legal age.
23:23:39 <shachaf> Wait, you're not talking about drinking age.
23:24:22 <wob_jonas> yes, drinking age, and similar age restrictions, like when you can buy alcohol and tobacco and lottery tickets and go into casinos
23:25:28 <wob_jonas> The exploit doesn't easily work for driving though, at least in Europe, because the rules say even if you have a valid drivers' license from another country, the age restriction of the local country for the relevant category of vehicles limits you,
23:25:52 <wob_jonas> so you could only drive in the territory with strange timezone, which is useless.
23:26:00 <int-e> wob_jonas: well, but the reason that this is the case is that nobody gives a damn about a few hours difference. in this matter.
23:26:09 <wob_jonas> But putting a bar or shop into a strange timezone is more practical.
23:26:36 <int-e> I think it simply won't work.
23:26:49 <wob_jonas> int-e: a few hours, probably no, sure. but if there's at least months of difference, that might matter
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23:27:01 <int-e> And if it does work, it won't be due to the timezone trickery.
23:27:38 <int-e> Rather it'll be because your local law enforcement doesn't care about the legal drinking age.
23:27:53 <wob_jonas> sure, for drinking and tobacco, there are already lots of workarounds like that
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23:28:47 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Maybe I can withdraw money from my retirement accounts if you arrange for a time zone a few decades ahead.
23:29:03 <shachaf> I don't understand why the US laws with regard to those are so complicated.
23:29:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, that might work too
23:30:31 <wob_jonas> Maybe I could avoid repaying loans and paying some bills by moving into a timezone where they're not due yet.
23:31:12 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, maybe you can write a clever financial contract based on the current date.
23:31:19 <shachaf> That's a much more interesting use.
23:31:33 <shachaf> Today I was reading Matt Levine, https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-12-05/blackstone-made-money-on-credit-default-swaps-with-this-one-weird-trick
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23:33:36 <int-e> A lawyer died suddenly in his sleep and was very upset when he entered the Pearly Gates. "I am too young to die, that way," he protested. "Not at all, you are 87 years old." "There must be a mistake, I am only 35 years old." "Well, we checked the number of hours you have billed to your clients, you must be 87 years old.”
23:33:59 <int-e> (I think this is similar territory as the time zone trick)
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23:34:17 <shachaf> What's the problem with billing multiple people for the same hour?
23:36:33 <int-e> Apparently there isn't one until you die unexpectedly of old age.
23:37:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: isn't that fine only if they share the bill, eg. two people pay half and half of it because the lawyer did a job that benefits both of them?
23:38:26 <shachaf> You mean, billing someone for an hour indicates that you spent the full hour only in service of them, unless you specify otherwise?
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23:39:30 <alercah> the problem is billing a whole hour for a fraction of it
23:39:49 <alercah> 6 10-minute phone calls with 6 clients, each pay for one hour = jackpot
23:40:20 <alercah> disclaimer: I don't actually know if lawyers do that
23:41:14 <wob_jonas> alercah: hmm, something like that might work, although it is probably hard to do it in a way that is actually profitable (i.e. you don't pay for it with lots of downtime when you can't bill anyone)
23:43:58 <wob_jonas> one thing that might work better in practice is being applied as a high-ranking professor in a university or even two and at the same time working in a research institute that isn't part of the university. It's hard to get more than 24 hours a day that way, but a nominal 16 hours a way is definitely possible, and 20 might perhaps be possible.
23:44:42 <alercah> why would it be hard to do in a profitable way?
23:44:44 <wob_jonas> I know a professor who works in two universities and one research institute, but it's hard to tell which one of those jobs is half time and which is full time.
23:44:53 <alercah> 2 hours pays for more than a day
23:45:43 <wob_jonas> alercah: dunno. maybe it isn't, I'm not a lawyer and don't know much about how lawyers work. I have a difficulty switching between projects when I have more than two simultanous projects in my job, and even switching between two rapidly.
23:46:02 <wob_jonas> Other people have trouble too swapping that way, although the amount of trouble differs a lot.
23:46:38 <wob_jonas> (two projects and switching only a few times a week is somewhat managable for me usually.)
23:46:54 <wob_jonas> (depends on the actual tasks of course)
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23:49:24 <wob_jonas> I think such double work is possible for doctors two, when they work for a public hospital and private institute or private patients at the same times, sometimes even in a questionably legal way (when they handle private patients in the public hospital, within the public hospital job's work hours or using some cheaper resources of the hospital).
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23:50:50 <shachaf> alercah: Lawyers usually bill in 6 minute increments, I believe.