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03:40:26 <zzo38> I think punching only the top position is a ampersand, and the MIX character set does not have a ampersand, which makes it difficult to use with MIX if you are using a single hole in one column to represent a month. Specifying amount of money in pence will still be possible though since it only goes from 0 to 11.
03:40:46 <zzo38> (No, wait, I am wrong.)
03:40:55 <zzo38> (Since, it uses top position to mean 10 instead of 12)
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05:12:57 <zzo38> There is the "spider and fly" puzzle involving the shorest distance along the faces of a cube. How to do with the cells of a tesseract?
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06:39:15 <zseri> esolangs.org seems down again.
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06:43:50 <oerjan> yeah HackEgo croaked too
06:44:19 <oerjan> fungot: you'll have to steer the ship alone now
06:44:19 <fungot> oerjan: the t-rex chases, of all places, t-rex, but t-rex explained how the bank that only i was a mutant with a fully-formed extra hand growing out of the base of my spine! if i had an " e", an " x", and so on, to infinity people in it showed a ghostly words written on a slip of paper!
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07:39:23 <\oren\> I should probably stop using the heaviside step function as a response curve.
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08:31:57 <zzo38> As the response curve of what?
08:33:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like Edwards curves?
08:34:45 <zzo38> I don't know what is Edwards curves?
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08:57:29 <shachaf> zzo38: A type of elliptic curve.
08:57:33 <shachaf> Do you like elliptic curves?
09:03:30 <int-e> . o O ( /ignore -channels #esoteric -pattern 'Do you like' )
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09:06:40 <int-e> shachaf: also, is that a roundabout way of asking whether we like djb?
09:07:31 <shachaf> He's certainly overrepresented in what I've read about elliptic curve cryptography, which isn't much.
09:07:52 <shachaf> But his arguments for Edwards curves seem reasonable. Are there other arguments I should know about?
09:09:40 <int-e> I don't know, I thought the arguments he made were persuasive, too.
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09:40:03 <shachaf> int-e: I did like https://cr.yp.to/patents/tarzian.html
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09:59:55 <int-e> From AutoCAD? Not I.
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10:22:56 <Taneb> So, I've just ordered Hardy and Wright's An Introduction to the Theory of Numbers because apparently I like spending money on textbooks now that I've graduated
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10:32:16 <int-e> addicted to learning :P
10:43:32 <Taneb> It totally isn't because one of my friends is catching me up on Project Euler
10:48:57 <Taneb> It's time for me to unoxford
10:49:06 <int-e> oh I'm home already
10:49:18 <Taneb> Meeting a friend for lunch in London
10:50:19 <int-e> (hmm: it seems unlikely that I'll catch up on PE, ever. Now missing almost 370 problems)
10:57:19 <int-e> and I may have forgotten my password as well, yay
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12:04:53 <wob_jonas> oh I just got the most horrible troll of an idea for an esolang
12:08:59 <int-e> . o O ( brainfuck with all commands represented by the same symbol, chosen at random during runtime? )
12:13:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: no. this is one about that parody I want to make about a newbie esolanger trying to make a language and an interpreter
12:20:51 <wob_jonas> Basically I was trying to think of how to write an interpreter that differs from the specification in an interesting way that is also realistic from a newbie. The interpreter can't just be completely useless or missing most of the language, because while that's realistic, it's not interesting. But the differences also have to cripple the language,
12:21:13 <wob_jonas> And now I realized exactly how I could do this. This is tricky to write, but it will be worth.
12:21:25 <int-e> so it's an underhanded esolang
12:23:37 <int-e> liars. "We use cookies so that Dropbox works for you."
12:23:53 <wob_jonas> It has to look like a stupid esolang from the specs, and has to be a completely differently stupid esolang if you actually try to run the interpreter
12:25:09 <int-e> . o O ( Of course you could also try the opposite, a non-TC esolang that due to a programming error becomes a TC strange machine (ideally in a machine independent way; otherwise you'd just need a buffer overflow or other vulnerability somewhere)
12:26:10 <wob_jonas> int-e: the implemented esolang might still be TC, it will just be restricted way more than the specs intends to restrict it
12:26:27 <wob_jonas> so it's much less convenient to program it than it seems from the spec and the examples
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12:38:59 <wob_jonas> Oh! I could even make it work on windows only, as a bonus
12:39:14 <wob_jonas> or work differently on windows and linux
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12:52:47 <wob_jonas> Multiplatform differences would make testing a bit trickier for me, I might have to ask help from other people.
12:59:48 <wob_jonas> I will also make the interpreter horribly inefficient for real computations, and get away with it because today's computers are fast enough that I can run toy examples quickly
13:00:12 <wob_jonas> And I mean so inefficient that I will scream inside as I read my own source code
13:00:30 <wob_jonas> Although I think that bothers most people much less
13:02:04 <wob_jonas> Oh, and I'll have to put the code on github
13:02:11 <wob_jonas> because that's what a newbie would do
13:02:19 <wob_jonas> then I can put jokes in the version control history too
13:10:01 <int-e> . o O ( you could unroll a loop too, to improve efficiency )
13:17:14 <wob_jonas> I've no idea how github works, but hopefully I'll figure it out
13:17:38 <wob_jonas> using github is something a newbie would do, right? they teach that in schools these days or something
13:17:55 <wob_jonas> best practices version control and github is the most popular version control system or something
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13:18:19 <FireFly> git is a VCS, github is just a place that hosts repositories
13:18:25 <int-e> probably, or perhaps bitbucket
13:18:45 <FireFly> it's a bit annoying it's become defacto standard
13:18:47 <wob_jonas> put your homework on github so all the other students in the class can copy it easily
13:18:49 <FireFly> though gitlab exists I guess
13:19:24 <wob_jonas> I wonder if I should try that in fact, making the language an obvious fork from another student's homework
13:19:59 <int-e> . o O ( you may be reaching the point where you're trying to do too many things at once )
13:20:03 <wob_jonas> with the name in a comment at top changed
13:20:17 <wob_jonas> this probably works better if it's not a homework actually
13:20:56 <wob_jonas> because then the teacher would hopefully at least teach something useful about interpreters and maybe look at the students' code and give them advice or something (yeah, I know it doesn't always work like that)
13:21:03 <wob_jonas> a hobby project by a single person is better
13:21:31 <wob_jonas> and if it's homework, they wouldn't come to esolangs.org and talk about anyway
13:22:00 <wob_jonas> so I will use github, but in a home way
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17:12:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I've started to figure out how I can do the interpreter part of this esolang parody thing
17:13:22 <wob_jonas> I have had trouble with it because I didn't have any memories of trying to write a bad parser before I knew how to write at least a working parser
17:13:36 <wob_jonas> but I think now I successfully got in the mindset, and know some core ideas,
17:13:57 <wob_jonas> so I'll be able to write a parser that hurts when you read the source code,
17:14:25 <wob_jonas> and more importantly, I know how to write a parser that results in a language that is interstingly more broken than the specified language but not so broken that it's boring
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17:15:08 <wob_jonas> I might still need some feedback from some of you later
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17:46:55 <zzo38> ais523: What programming language are you going to use to implement the card game that you have invented?
17:47:47 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not sure if I'm going to implement it at all
17:48:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I guess this is one of the things you have to see before you can give feedback on it
17:48:51 <zzo38> Maybe I would try to implement it some day then; I don't know. And then you can complain in case I have done it wrong.
17:49:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: the breakthrough was when I realized I could simply match parenthisized subexpressions with /\((.*)\)/, to support nested parenthesis
17:50:16 <wob_jonas> but that made me see how I can make the rest of the parser ad-hoc and work only for specific example programs, without handling syntax errors gracefully
17:50:30 <wob_jonas> not just syntax errors, but things like unusual whitespace
17:50:48 <wob_jonas> the imaginary person simply didn't try most of the deliberate syntax errors that a person rarely commits
17:51:34 <ais523> ooh, parsing with regex
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17:52:47 <wob_jonas> so he would handle finding a statement keyword that doesn't exist yet, but not a missing expression after a comma in an argument list or something
17:53:03 <wob_jonas> yeah, I have to be careful with regex, because a newbie might not know of them at all
17:53:39 <wob_jonas> unless they're programming perl or something, and I don't just want to write the program in perl, because then I'd be too prone to write the perl I wrote when I was young
17:54:06 <wob_jonas> still I hope I can get away with naive uses of simple regexen
17:56:02 <wob_jonas> I mean, they're not that unknown these days unless I make the character program DOS Turbo Pascal
17:57:00 <wob_jonas> Ideally I should probably use Java or C# or something, but I'm not ready for that
17:58:36 <wob_jonas> well, I might still try. I can probably learn as much Java as the character
17:58:48 <wob_jonas> I'll just have to find some old and bad enough Java tutorial
18:00:01 <ais523> Java supports PCRE-style regexes, perhaps surprisingly
18:00:06 <ais523> I know it surprised me
18:00:39 <wob_jonas> the main criteria for the regex here is that the dot should automatically match newlines
18:05:30 <ais523> oh, it doesn't in most regex syntaxes
18:05:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: I already had matlab as a candidate, because it already allows for (1) doing unnecessary file IO in the interpreter to look which source files exist and also having code that could break in interesting ways when you run it on a case-sensitive fs,
18:06:27 <zzo38> I just used [^] to match any character including newlines
18:06:48 <wob_jonas> and (2) easily lets the program call matlab functions, which makes the interpreter easier to implement and have the newbie-esoteric trait that it doesn't have arithmetic operator syntax and you have to call matlab's minus and times functions, which easily brings in the parenthesis limitation
18:06:57 <ais523> zzo38: that won't work in all regex syntaxes, some of them parse the ] as a literal closing square bracket, not as the end of the character class
18:07:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, that doesn't work in posix regex, only in perl regex
18:07:17 <wob_jonas> maybe not even in perl regex, I don't remember
18:07:21 <ais523> wob_jonas: IIRC it doesn't work in perl regex either
18:07:26 <ais523> there's probably a syntax where it works, though
18:07:31 <zzo38> Well, [^] works in JavaScript at least.
18:07:33 <wob_jonas> anyway, the octave regex has dot matching newlines by default
18:07:42 <zzo38> (My implementation of /// in JavaScript does this)
18:08:11 <wob_jonas> matlab is also realistic as a language a student learns in a university class,
18:08:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/slashes.js
18:08:59 <wob_jonas> and has a reasonable enough syntax that the character could base his syntax on it and because of the builtin function thing, accidentally give .m as the extension for one of his supposed functions written in the program, although I'm not yet sure that works out
18:09:22 <wob_jonas> I probably won't do that, I'll probably make the syntax too different for that
18:09:50 <fizzie> FYI, wiki is down. As usual, no answer over SSH so... wait and see, I guess.
18:10:38 <wob_jonas> also, I no longer thing I'll call the character User:Fungot, because sadly there's a mainspace Fungot article which would make people find that before User:Fungot
18:12:07 <fizzie> I got an email alert, but of course I didn't notice until now. Should probably have it do something more visible, but OTOH so far there's never really been anything I could do about it.
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19:57:02 <zseri> Why has the Wiki crashed so frequently lately?
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20:17:02 <fizzie> Because of it's hosting provider, I'm pretty sure.
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21:05:00 <zzo38> GURPS has 100 core spells, which is too much to be selecting at random by use of a deck of cards, even if tarot cards are in use. Even if the Enchantment spells and Recover Energy are omitted, there is still too much.
21:06:14 <zzo38> (Enchantment spells are used to permanently enchant magical items and work differently than other spells, while Recover Energy cannot be cast at all.)
21:06:53 <wob_jonas> cannot be cast at all? you can only splice it?
21:08:49 <zzo38> Actually no (although I like that idea too, but none of the core spells can be spliced). Simply having it at a high enough skill level allows FP spent on energy costs of spells to be recovered faster by a mage who knows the spell.
21:12:31 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure it'd be a good idea if it could be spliced, it's hard to balance that thing.
21:12:47 <wob_jonas> But that depends on the rest of the mechanics and stuff
21:14:09 <wob_jonas> I just thought you meant that you want a random choice of spell for misfiring a wand that a non-caster is trying to zap, in which case recover energy would make no sense
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21:30:48 <zseri> fizzie: admin of esolangs.org (according to whois) is Alan Dipert. Domain Registrar: godaddy; server location: Canada; Nameserver domains@: zem.fi , rollernet.us
21:32:41 <zseri> ISP = KW Datacenter
21:33:54 <zzo38> I mean a wand with a random effect, even if it is not misfired, but still it has to be a spell that can be cast. (Splicing also won't be used in this case, presumably, though.)
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21:35:26 <fizzie> zseri: That WHOIS info isn't quite right, possibly because I have WHOIS privacy turned on for the domain.
21:38:20 <fizzie> But yeah, it's hosted (with HackEgo) on a cloudatcost.com "one time fee" VPS, of which stories have been told.
21:38:53 <fizzie> https://www.trustpilot.com/review/cloudatcost.com
21:42:39 <Gregor> fizzie: Just gave it a kick on the panel.
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21:43:03 <Gregor> If you have anywhere to move it to, I'd recommend moving it X-D
21:43:14 <Gregor> CaC seems to have gone from bad to worse.
21:45:03 <izabera> can we just stop using/talking about c@c at all?
21:45:43 <zseri> fizzie: but why is it then nevertheless hosted there?
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22:39:46 <fizzie> Gregor: Thanks. I looked at Google Cloud Platform (we at least used to get some free credit for it), but it can be used only "for business" in the EU. Maybe after Brexit.
22:39:50 <fizzie> (I'm too stingy to pay specifically for it more than the yearly domain renewal.)
22:49:41 <fizzie> There's a few very cheap offerings around, though -- should maybe seriously consider those. They might not be great, but it's not a high bar to be better than the status quo.
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