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02:45:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53061&oldid=52781 * HereToAnnoy * (+158) formatted page better
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03:15:32 <zzo38> I partially am making up the calendar printing program for MIX. It needs a data deck with at first the starter card (specifying the year and cell height), and then zero or more date cards, and then a blank card at the end. The same data deck can be used every year except that the starter card will need to be replaced with a fresh one.
03:16:26 <zzo38> But, the starter card has many unused character positions, so we could use them to allow the same starter card to be used for several years, if you can punch an additional hole into one of the unused columns every year until it is full.
03:18:55 <zzo38> It is also using a disk, with one record per week, for temporary storage, since the RAM is not enough.
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03:47:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WCDA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53062 * HereToAnnoy * (+3852) Created page for WCDA, the ultimate golfing language
03:51:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53063&oldid=53062 * HereToAnnoy * (+4) minor - added link to Hello, World!
03:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53064&oldid=53034 * HereToAnnoy * (+69) /* W */ - added WCDA to the language list
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10:18:01 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> But, the starter card has many unused character positions" => how many characters of it do you use to encode moon phase?
10:18:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: a calendar program is nice, and I have thought of writing my own one day, although not in MMIX
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12:15:23 <b_jonas> I'm stupid, I've even seen that
12:43:38 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1886/ <-- well you can take solace in the fact that I was blissfully unaware that "typing notifications" are a thing
12:43:57 <int-e> (let's just hope that IRC client don't jump on this particular train)
12:46:53 <b_jonas> int-e: IRC clients won't, because luckily the kind of people who think IRC should be extended with modern multimedia capabilities are developing a dozen different chat protocols with modern multimedia capabilities and decentralized cryptography schemes and video chat built in
12:47:40 <b_jonas> and if anyone tried to add client-to-client typing notifications in IRC, which is totally technically not that hard, freenode would kick them in the ass for the useless extra traffic
12:48:15 <b_jonas> skype has typing notifications by default, and I think you can't disable them now with the latest dumbed-down client which doesn't even have an options dialog or a way to quit or anything
12:48:32 <b_jonas> basically MS has successfully turned skype into malware
12:48:41 <b_jonas> it was already close, but they made it worse
12:48:52 <b_jonas> and I don't think skype is the only chat that does that
12:57:15 <int-e> yeah that seems unlikely
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12:59:27 <fizzie> int-e: ITYM <CTCP>TYPING<CTCP>
13:01:45 <fizzie> I think Hangouts' typing notifications are also un-disableable.
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13:13:24 <b_jonas> The same is true for adding multimedia inserts or fancy HTML formatting information or extra-long lines or picture avatars or name colors or deletable or editable messages,
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13:19:19 <fizzie> I wrote an irssi plugin for one-time-pad encrypted messages once.
13:19:36 <fizzie> Then swapped a CD-full of random bytes with a friend.
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13:20:10 <fizzie> I think I wanted to say "CD full" or "CD-ful", but somehow ended up with both there.
13:23:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: hehe, lol. there are cheaper protocols than a CD full of random bits, but ok.
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15:37:02 <int-e> . o O ( how does one remember C-x 5 2 )
15:38:26 <shachaf> int-e: You don't use any chat program with typing notifications?
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15:39:39 <shachaf> fizzie: I use (non-multiuser) Hangouts with XMPP, and I assume I can disable typing notifications in my client.
15:39:55 <shachaf> But this is becoming less and less supported, I suppose.
15:51:52 <int-e> shachaf: that's right.
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15:53:10 <int-e> shachaf: Also, my mobile phone has about 15 keys and 3 games on it, no camera, and the flashlight is an actual lamp rather than the display backlight.
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15:53:39 <shachaf> 3 games? Is one of them Snake?
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16:11:09 <b_jonas> good, so HackEgo and wiki probably came up
16:12:01 <b_jonas> int-e: 15 keys? that seems either too few (if it has a numeric keypad and no touchscreen or a touchscreen and full alphabetic keypad), or too many (if it has a touchscreen and no keypad).
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16:15:55 <Cale> b_jonas: 12 for the numeric keypad, # and *, and then you have 3 more... perhaps pick up, hang up, and something to do with caller id?
16:18:35 <b_jonas> Cale: most phones have at least 16, typically around 22 to 25 these days. a phone that has games most certainly has at least 16.
16:19:13 <b_jonas> I only know of one very old phone that has 16 keys, and that kind of interface is too limited and rare these days
16:19:31 <b_jonas> everyone is copying the interfaces from each other, and since the previous one has more buttons, the new ones have more buttons too
16:23:46 <zzo38> b_jonas: The moon phase isn't encoded on the card, currently; I should think it would calculate the phase of moon by themself if they needed to do, rather than taking it as input.
16:24:59 <fizzie> I imagine you could use the numeric keypad to control those games. The N-Gage had 5 and 7 as the A and B gamepad buttons, slightly raised. Though it also had a d-pad.
16:25:14 <fizzie> I seem to recall 12 (keypad) + 3 (up, "action" and down) + 2 ("soft buttons" on left and right bottom corners of screen) = 17 being pretty standard setup.
16:28:56 <zzo38> I would think in addition to the 0-9 * # you will also need send, end, high volume, low volume, and delete.
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16:33:38 <int-e> b_jonas: Note the "about". I'm not sure how to count the cursor cross, since it's a single button with four active directions. I think it's actually 17 or 20, depending on how you count.
16:34:01 <zzo38> int-e: Count it as four buttons, I should think
16:34:24 <b_jonas> int-e: if it has four directions, then it's four buttons. if it has four directions plus can also be pressed in the middle for a different effect, it's five buttons. if you can only press it up and down, it's two buttons. if up and down and middle, it's three buttons.
16:34:54 <int-e> as I said, it depends on how you count; I gave two ways that I consider reasonable.
16:35:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: these days phones also have a power key and often volume keys and sometimes other extra keys (lock, lamp, message, alarm clock) on the sides or the back.
16:36:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: and many phones have two soft buttons and an additional pick up and put down buttons, with red and green icons, between the soft button and the numeric keys
16:37:28 <zzo38> I am counting everything in my own count of 17
16:38:14 <b_jonas> these conventions are useful because on non-touchphone telephones, if you want to call emergency services, you can always just type 1 1 2 followed by the button above the 1; and if a colleage leaves his phone in the room and it rings loudly, you can almost always mute it by pressing volume buttons on the side or back and/or turning the phone display down.
16:39:13 <b_jonas> It seems like the people who make the laws actually care about being able to call emergency services from all phones easily,
16:39:36 <b_jonas> and as for the loud ringing, it's getting more and more important with so many phones with no removable battery,
16:40:14 <zzo38> You need removable battery.
16:40:25 <b_jonas> but even apart from those the manufacturers just want to make people be able to learn to use their phones easily
16:40:34 <zzo38> In case it won't turn off somehow, can be useful
16:40:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, it's useful. but there are still phones without it.
16:41:01 <zzo38> (Or if the battery is damaged and you need to replace it)
16:41:09 <b_jonas> usually they put in some special turn off mode like PCs have where if you press the power button for long enough it turns off
16:42:14 <b_jonas> no, I can actually understand why they don't want a removable and replacable battery. they want a light and thin phone, and if the battery is removable, then it needs an extra layer of casing on both of its sides, besides what the phone would already hvae
16:42:26 <b_jonas> phones without removable battery can simply have fewer plastic in them
16:43:17 <b_jonas> also, if the display breaks once every two years in normal use, then most phones don't get to the age when the battery has to be replaced
16:43:27 <b_jonas> and people replace their whole phones with a new model every two years too
16:43:34 <b_jonas> so why bother with replacable battery?
16:47:04 <zzo38> They shouldn't need to change it entirely every few year
16:48:16 <b_jonas> sure, but even then, my phone is about six or eight years old now, I'll replace it soon, and the battery seems to have a lifetime comparable to the rest. the battery is simply no longer the part that lives the shortest, so why make that one replacable in particular, rather than any of the other parts?
16:49:42 <zzo38> O, if the battery lives longer anyways, then it makes sense, but why can't the other parts work?
16:51:11 <b_jonas> the display breaks often because it's huge and has a glass plate that extends to the sides of the phone with little or no frame, so whenever you drop the phone in any orientation except flatly to the front or back, the glass gets a shock from the side and may crack. it may also get hurt in other ways.
16:51:29 <b_jonas> but it's not just parts breaking, but sometimes people wanting the features or performance of a new phone that might matter.
16:52:35 <zzo38> I suppose it can then depend on the individual customers; who are more likely to break or not to not do so; and there are sometimes if you want hardware upgrades too. But sometimes you might only need a software upgrade, depending how it is designed.
16:52:54 <b_jonas> also in android and windows phone smartphones, the software gets unsupported because the manufacturers make changes from the vanilla OS and barely update the modified OS with upstream security patches, so you end up with very old software that is often unsecure
16:53:12 <b_jonas> so people either install custom software or they have to buy a new phone just for the software
16:53:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, it's just that getting a software update is often impossible
16:53:53 <b_jonas> not updating the software, but getting the software you want to update to
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16:54:47 <zzo38> That can be the case, but they should allow custom software (unless the software is stored in ROM, in which case there might be a reason to make the ROM chip replaceable, or preferably, to use programmable ROM so that you can set an internal switch in the battery compartment to programmable ROM mode if you want to upgrade it).
16:55:03 <zzo38> That is why you need open source software, then you can make the upgrade by yourself
16:55:32 <b_jonas> and as for dropping the phone, what do you expect people should do? half of the phones these days don't even have a wrist/neck strap attach point in the chasis, and I think when my grandmother lost the back cover of her phone, that was because I had a wrist strap attached without a proper attach point which made the back cover not snap in properly on that corner
16:56:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: the smartphones almost always do allow you to install custom software, it's just that you don't find the right custom software to intsall
16:56:33 <b_jonas> at least for non-apple phones. apple phones, I think, have longer support for their software
16:56:55 <zzo38> Depends how the customer uses it and how prone they are to dropping stuff, how often you carry it with you, store in your pocket, etc.
16:57:10 <zzo38> Some people don't drop stuff as much
16:57:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but I am saying they should include full source codes and free license for the manufacturer's software; even if they do not maintain it anymore someone else might do.
17:00:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, I think people are just overconfident and don't think they'll drop their phone, yet I see a lot of people with phones with broken displays on a bus, and whenever you travel on a chair skilift, you see an abundance of dropped batons and gloves under the route.
17:01:41 <b_jonas> sure, maybe some people don't drop their stuff. I do drop my stuff, which is why I use a wriststrap and a neckstrap (not at the same time) for my camera. I don't use a strap for my mobile phone, but it's survived a few drops already, doesn't have a big display, and is cheap enough to replace, and I want to replace it soon anyway.
17:01:48 <zzo38> That may be the case. Still, some people might be more likely to drop it than others anyways.
17:02:11 <b_jonas> I've even dropped my phone into a toilet bowl once. That doesn't just happen to other people like I thought.
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17:02:42 <b_jonas> Yes, I admit I have a low DEX score, so I fail those checks more often. But half of the people have a low DEX score.
17:07:11 <b_jonas> Look, my father cut into his finger with a circular saw. And that's a dangerous machine and he knows he has to avoid it, and pays attention to what he's doing when using it. Whereas
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17:08:35 <b_jonas> people text on a mobile phone while still holding on to the bus so they don't fall, three shopping bags full of goods and two children; or they hold a mobile phone to their ears while driving, using their two hands to also hold the steering wheel, the shift stick, a cigarette, a sandwich or cup of drink, and the leg of the girl sitting next to them.
17:08:57 <b_jonas> It's absolutely normal that people drop their mobile phone.
17:09:25 <zzo38> Yes, and you shouldn't do stupid things like trying to do all of those things at the same time. (Where I live it is illegal anyways)
17:10:20 <zzo38> But yes, of course someone may drop it anyways
17:10:22 <b_jonas> I drop them because I don't yet have a kid I have to hold, so until that, because I'm clumsy, I have to pay extra attention to train myself to drop things in my hand when I trip so I can put the palms in front of me if I fall forward or behind me if I fall sideways or back,
17:10:45 <b_jonas> against the normal reflex of always keeping holding on to whatever is in your hand, which only makes sense once you grow up and carry a child in one hand.
17:11:47 <b_jonas> Holding stuff in your hand while driving is usually illegal, yes. Holding shopping bags and two kids and a mobile phone is most definitely not illegal, and it'd be hard to regulate.
17:13:40 <zzo38> Yes, holding shopping bags and two kids and a mobile phone is not illegal and probably shouldn't be illegal, but still you shouldn't do all of those things at the same time while you are also eating and driving and smoking all at the same time too.
17:14:08 <b_jonas> Yes, those are two different examples.
17:15:02 <zzo38> Did you write a calendar program? If so, in what program language?
17:15:08 <b_jonas> Few people hold their children while driving, or their children while holding the leg of the girl next to them, or two shopping bags while driving.
17:15:28 <zzo38> That's what I thought.
17:15:51 <b_jonas> I have written one program that computes the days of the week, in perl or ruby (I'm not sure), but I haven't written much else.
17:16:56 <b_jonas> Instead I just wrote emails to timeanddate.com each time the Hungarian government decides to swap up holidays just a few months in the future, and used their calendar.
17:17:13 <b_jonas> Plus paper calendars and other existing computer calendar programs.
17:18:04 <b_jonas> And I also used libraries for some date-time computations, like date arithmetic and io.
17:18:43 <b_jonas> I used perl Date::Manip from CPAN mostly, it's good (and I also have written emails to its maintainer), but it's not perfect.
17:22:45 <zzo38> What things are the problem with it and have you fixed it?
17:24:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: with timeanddate, and almost every other calendar interface, I'd like to see both the name of the month and the one-based number of the month, together on the same year overview calendar page, and also in other calendars, on month overview and week overview pages.
17:25:08 <zzo38> OK then I will put that in
17:25:11 <b_jonas> with Date::Manip, many bugs have been fixed if you upgrade to latest versions, some outstanding problems that are hard to fix are: (1) it's a perl module with perl interface, but you often want to so date calculations and perl is an overkill, so you need other libraries,
17:25:43 <b_jonas> (2) Date::Manip doesn't do sub-second precision (it gracefully discards sub-second parts when parsing, but that's all),
17:26:41 <b_jonas> (3) for localized translated formatting, it uses only its built-in set of around fifteen languages, which is fine for me, but in general you want a larger translation database, such as the one ICU or glibc have.
17:27:11 <b_jonas> Glibc has a longstanding bug with Hungarian localization of dates, but I never bothered to fix that because I don't want Hungarian localized interface, but some other people do want that.
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17:28:05 <b_jonas> Where Date::Manip excels is the three (actually more like five or six, but I use three) different modes of date arithmetic
17:28:23 <b_jonas> and the customizable formatting and scanning of dates
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17:28:56 <b_jonas> I have to afk now for probably 90 minutes
17:29:38 <zzo38> The program I have, a date card might look like this: " 0901 1F +00 2 LABOUR DAY " and the rest blank.
17:35:39 <zzo38> (The "+00" is actually optional; if left blank, it means the same thing. The "1F" if omitted will just use the date in the first five character positions instead; in this case, September 1.)
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18:21:11 <int-e> @google "pumpkin lemma"
18:21:13 <lambdabot> https://twitter.com/metadave/status/396017702117994496
18:23:34 <\oren\> when did this delicious drama start! "YouTube star PewDiePie under fire for branding rival gamer with n-word"
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19:09:08 <shachaf> It's not delicious, it's boring.
19:09:15 <shachaf> If you stop paying attention to it maybe it'll go away.
19:16:05 <\oren\> int-e: no, someone killed him and he yelled that they were a fucking nigger
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19:40:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53065&oldid=53058 * Zseri * (-390) remove useless information about internal vm stacks
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19:48:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53066&oldid=53065 * Zseri * (+189) re-organized variable assign commands
20:11:09 <shachaf> Cale: Super Mega books are shipping out soon!
20:23:47 <HackEgo> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
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20:39:03 <shachaf> Are you in the Kickstarter thing?
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20:44:34 <Cale> I think I got it from the preorder store shortly after the kickstarter ended
20:45:46 <fungot> wob_jonas: and a second course of extra dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that
20:45:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
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21:09:26 <oerjan> fungot: that was a bit too extra
21:09:26 <fungot> oerjan: never!! so that's why!
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21:23:36 <fungot> int-e: and i think to myself: this is a black market, t-rex? there are already a lot, but they're always a good party, but are we including all space as the nouns! you can have nouns floating around you in conversation. how is that not awesome?
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21:39:08 <shachaf> Haven't we been over this? The "ch" isn't like "chair".
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21:51:25 <ais523> shachaf: this is a fact that I've somehow never been in the channel to see
21:59:03 <oerjan> i had guessed that fact before being told, but had otherwise guessed the stress wrong.
21:59:10 <quintopia> i never even suspected that there was a preferred pronuciation
21:59:42 <quintopia> i thought it was just "i rot13d funpuns. pronounce it however you like."
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22:35:07 <int-e> sbe gur ebg13 uvag
22:49:33 <quintopia> oh its supposed to be forward slash *facepalm*
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22:58:33 <oerjan> int-e: that uvag is wrong, anyway
22:59:20 <HackEgo> \ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash.
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23:17:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53067&oldid=53061 * HereToAnnoy * (+18) /* Contributions */
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23:40:34 <\oren\> Ok, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard: "heated oil bath core memory"
23:41:13 <\oren\> early IBM computers literally fried their memory to keep it at a consistent temperature
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