00:10:12 <HackEgo> 1/3:zarutian//You can trust Zarutian. He fixes, as an electronics technician, banal mistakes of electronics engineers. Rather cy(ph|b)erpunkish in outlook regarding the 'Net. Knows more about ocaps than you can imagine. Possesses an Icelandic unnerver that ejects freezingly hot lava out of its business end. Bears an 'Authentic fakes provider' sea
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00:10:13 <HackEgo> 2/3:l from the guild of Realers. He is also known for making rather long HackEgo wisdom entries. Take for instance this entry. It has a whole subentry just on Icelandic unnerver. Even though the Icelandic unnerver has its own. \ rhetorical question//Why did Taneb invent the rhetorical question without providing an answer? \ the u//The U are a v
00:10:16 <HackEgo> 3/3:ery mad people. \ intercal//INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ eridanipoid//Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
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00:18:40 * oerjan smells a PPCG bounty coming his way
00:21:39 <boily> what does a bounty mean in this context?
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00:25:22 <oerjan> (stackexchange site rep points)
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01:12:28 <ais523> oerjan: for which answer?
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01:18:27 <oerjan> ais523: well it's not explicitly stated that it's for me but i have a good vibe about https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/138912/
01:19:11 <oerjan> (i'm the only one answering in a non-esoteric language)
01:20:57 <oerjan> or well, TI-BASIC might not be esoteric.
01:20:59 <ais523> oerjan: nice, it manages to be obfuscated and underhanded simultaneously and to useful effect
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01:21:32 <ais523> although including a cyrillic and ASCII d in the same line is probably a loophole violation for underhanded code; luckily this wasn't an underhanded competition
01:26:00 <oerjan> the cyrillic character was not chosen for underhandedness at all, of course; it was simply the smallest unicode character that worked there (possibly the only one)
01:26:24 <oerjan> only two byte one that is
01:26:26 <ais523> and the ASCII d is an essential part of the spelling of "id"
01:26:48 <oerjan> i probably didn't have to use d for the last-minute change
01:27:26 <oerjan> that was just the first letter that worked there, presumably.
01:31:27 <oerjan> hm "or" fits instead of "id" afa characters are concerned, but it gives a type ambiguity.
01:33:04 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Integer]) arising from a use of ‘e_1128115’
01:33:37 <oerjan> "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:33:49 <oerjan> > var "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:34:34 <oerjan> > map generalCategory "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:34:36 <lambdabot> [NonSpacingMark,OtherSymbol,OtherLetter,OtherLetter]
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01:35:33 <oerjan> hm no letters until it passes into 3 bytes, i recognize the ᐄ
01:35:49 <oerjan> (that's the character i allude to in the explanation)
01:36:14 <oerjan> i originally had that before thinking of the tab trick
01:46:42 <ais523> huh, what's the kind of Foldable there?
01:47:36 <ais523> it's weird to see quantification over type constructors, although I guess if any non-total language can do it, it's probably Haskell
01:51:49 <shachaf> Do you think it's weird with Functor and Monad too?
01:51:58 <shachaf> I guess when Haskell was new this was looked at as a pretty unusual feature.
01:52:25 <shachaf> It even had some name like "constructor classes".
01:53:20 <ais523> shachaf: yes, although monads are weird enough that you don't instinctively consider the monad "constructor" as being a type and so it doesn't feel as out of place
01:54:08 <shachaf> Rust still doesn't support this feature. :-(
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01:55:30 <ais523> that reminds me, I started trying to write a program in Rust to try it out
01:56:09 <ais523> and found a problem that seems to be a) common and b) in need of a new feature to address it (although multiple possible solutions would work)
01:56:46 <shachaf> I had that experience multiple times when I tried writing some Rust a while ago.
01:57:13 <ais523> the case where it came up for me was: suppose you want a trait that describes enums, including how many elements you have; and you want to create an array with X elements, where X is the number of possibilties of the enum, given the enum as a type parameter
01:57:46 <ais523> you can't currently do this without placing a large number of type bounds on the resulting trait that leak implementation details
01:58:42 <ais523> the cleanest and simplest fix, AFAICT, is to allow for "closed" traits (that can't have new types implementing them), plus a rule that if a type implements a closed trait, it (automatically / on request) implements all traits that types implementing that closed trait implement
01:59:12 <ais523> (this is a tautology, but the point is that if I have x: ClosedTrait, and only types A and B implement ClosedTrait, I can then assume x implements any trait implemented by both A and B)
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02:21:20 <ais523> wait, I thought there was only one base kind
02:27:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Int#’
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02:27:30 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:27:47 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:28:02 <oerjan> shachaf: pardon me, i'm trying to demonstrate to ais523 here
02:28:39 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, so kinds in Haskell have changed from being a mathematical concept to more of a "this is how the Haskell implementation handles a type"?
02:28:41 <oerjan> now unboxed types have a kind showing an approximation of their runtime representation
02:28:52 <shachaf> We figured out some good GHC bugs back in the day using all these extra kinds.
02:29:20 <oerjan> (before they were all tossed into a special kind #)
02:29:28 <shachaf> one might even go so far as to call them "astonishingly ingenious"
02:29:34 <ais523> shachaf: why on earth does HackEgo have a command specifically for editing oerjan's wisdom entry?
02:29:41 <oerjan> this allows more refined safe type coercions
02:30:12 <ais523> that is a problem in its own right, surely
02:33:39 <oerjan> ais523: these days kinds are also types, as part of the (incomplete) project to make haskell dependently typed. and types whose own kinds are * are themselves kinds.
02:34:09 <oerjan> (* is its own kind, which makes the type logic inconsistent but goldfire swears that's fine)
02:34:14 <ais523> making Haskell dependently typed sounds like a bad idea
02:34:39 <ais523> even languages that are designed from the outset to be dependently typed struggle with having dependent typing
02:35:11 <oerjan> and Constraint has been there for a while, after ghc got support for making classes and the like into type arguments
02:36:17 <oerjan> (a class with parameters of kind k1, k2, etc. itself has kind k1 -> k2 -> ... -> Constraint)
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02:37:18 <ais523> is it possible to make a class that takes constraints as arguments? I guess it would be?
02:37:25 <ais523> although the syntax for that could be awkward
02:37:44 <ais523> X y => y t => t a -> b
02:38:56 <oerjan> that's still mathematical, btw. the "how the Haskell implementation handles a type" you mention was added to make type coercions safe between types of equal representation
02:39:12 <oerjan> (it's the RuntimeRep argument to TYPE)
02:39:49 <oerjan> ais523: you certainly can. the second => would probably be a ->
02:40:35 <oerjan> i'm not quite getting the example you're going for
02:41:05 <oerjan> edwardk's constraints package surely has some examples.
02:41:48 <ais523> hmm, that example's probably more complex than it should be
02:42:17 <oerjan> in fact, the Forall module i've contributed to has some.
02:42:51 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/constraints-0.9.1/docs/Data-Constraint-Forall.html
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02:45:20 <oerjan> the main module also has some
02:45:40 <oerjan> of course the entire point of that package is to play around with this stuff
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05:16:24 <oerjan> ...why is scott aaronson's blog comments suddenly full of videos
05:16:39 * oerjan hasn't decided whether he's complaining or not.
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05:46:33 <shachaf> oerjan: I went to a Mill talk and the speaker was apparently in Trondheim for a while
05:49:28 <shachaf> There needs to be a command to view wisdom/oerjan too
05:51:47 <oerjan> similar to `hwrl, i think
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14:18:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: probably wordpress stuff
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15:16:27 <int-e> . o O ( Coming for Halloween: The Google Skin Crawler. )
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16:31:46 <LKoen> do you think Brainfuck Joust would be suited for this? http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2017-October/010261.html
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17:59:07 <lambdabot> LOWI 051650Z 27013G31KT 200V330 9999 FEW070 BKN120 22/03 Q1010 NOSIG
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18:05:54 <int-e> hmm, windy but approximately parallel to runway... boring ;-)
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23:45:27 <lambdabot> CYUL 052200Z 24010KT 30SM BKN075 18/08 A2995 RMK AC7 SLP143 DENSITY ALT 500FT
23:45:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 052150Z 25010KT 9999 FEW012 SCT020 BKN029 09/07 Q0997 RMK WIND 670FT 27018KT
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