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00:37:59 <oerjan> ais523: my condolences with the horrible demise of your polyglot challenge hth
00:42:09 <oerjan> but someone found a language that I am now considering putting on the wiki only to slap Category:Shameful on it.
00:42:31 <ais523> I guess you get the bad with the good
00:43:11 * oerjan also just put a snark in a comment
00:43:29 <\oren\> hwat language was that?
00:43:42 <ais523> I'm surprised that a language like that would have a censored name
00:43:47 <oerjan> although that might be deleted i guess - PPCG is unpredictable.
00:43:48 <ais523> or maybe it doesn't and it was just censored in the post?
00:43:58 <oerjan> only in the title, actually
00:44:12 <ais523> Stack Exchange's rules about esolang names with "fuck" in are that they should be censored in question titles but not elsewhere
00:47:11 <ais523> alercah: it's basically because they don't want questions about brainfuck reaching Hot Network Questions uncensored and appearing in the sidebar pretty much everywhere
00:47:16 <ais523> this has happened a few times in the past
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01:05:02 <shachaf> I always think "ppcg" stands for "planet pooch" something
01:05:47 <HackEgo> ysaclist 67: boily shachaf
01:07:37 <boily> I don't think I ever ppcged?
01:11:44 <boily> there are other alexes?!?!??!!!
01:12:07 <ais523> quintopia: was that directed at me? I don't normally use realnames on IRC because a) they can be ambiguous and b) they don't ping
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01:12:53 <quintopia> yes. i didnt want to ping you if you were busy
01:13:23 <ais523> if I'm really busy I just don't respond to the ping until later (or just close IRC)
01:15:11 <ais523> really we need a golfing site that's a) suitable for in-depth problems (unlike anagolf) and b) not evil (unlike Stack Exchange)
01:16:57 <ais523> I'm not sure if I saved the rant I sent to SE when deleting my account, let me see if I did
01:18:11 <ais523> shachaf: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/stackexchange-resignationletter.txt
01:18:18 <ais523> I had to golf that to fit it into the character limit, too :-(
01:18:45 <ais523> they gave a generic reply to it that implied that they didn't actually read what I'd said, and presumably was a stock response worded to sound sympathetic
01:20:29 <shachaf> Would it be useful to get that text to someone there who would actually read it?
01:22:18 <ais523> they'd have to want to do something about it
01:22:34 <ais523> I believe the Stack Exchange higher-ups have decided to mostly focus on Stack Overflow rather than the exchange more generally
01:22:44 <ais523> and possibly to make it into a jobs site as that's how they make their money
01:24:51 <ais523> PPCG has done a good job at making a usable golfing site, but it's mostly via using half the site features in ways they weren't intended to be used (and in some cases are explicitly not intended to be used)
01:26:11 <shachaf> Are you going to make a better golfing site?
01:26:35 <quintopia> while i agree that se is terrible for code golf, i dont agree that all the incentives are wrong for proper q+a. they do it better than quora. moderation is screwed up but again, better than quora.
01:26:37 <ais523> probably not, I'd like to but I doubt I'd complete it in a reasonable length of time
01:27:14 <ais523> quintopia: I've tried using Stack Overflow to a small extent; I got a useful answer ("what you're trying to do is probably impossible") as a comment and an incorrect answer as an answer which I couldn't downvote because my account was too new
01:27:33 <shachaf> I've had a better time answering questsions on Stack Overflow than asking them.
01:27:51 <quintopia> ais523: write up a design goals document for an ideal code golf site
01:27:56 <ais523> the main problem with answering questions is that it's hard to overtake an existing answer even if it's correct
01:28:04 <ais523> *even if it's incorrect
01:28:43 <quintopia> true. it could benefit from a medium-style upvote system
01:29:03 <quintopia> but "accepted answers" gets around that to some extent.
01:29:40 <ais523> accepted answers can be fairly random
01:30:13 <ais523> the next issue is, is Stack Overflow meant to be an FAQ site (i.e. compiling the answers to commonly asked questions for the benefit of everyone), or a "get an answer" site (i.e. aiming for an answer that helps the OP in particular)?
01:30:24 <ais523> the answer is, it doesn't know, and the site documentation is contradictory on the matter
01:30:28 <quintopia> can be. but at least there is more control over them
01:30:53 <ais523> PPCG would benefit from having the accepted answer feature disabled altogether, although that may not be true for things like Stack Overflow
01:31:16 <quintopia> i always assumed it was more the latter because it's focus on long carefully worded questions
01:31:45 <quintopia> so about that design goals document
01:31:57 <ais523> I'll have to think about it
01:32:05 <ais523> I've thought about it in the past but I can't remember all my conclusions
01:32:16 <shachaf> Why wouldn't you complete it in a reasonable length of time?
01:33:22 <ais523> because I haven't really been able to do anything major for months, apart from in some cases my day job
01:34:16 <shachaf> Maybe we're in the same boat.
01:36:55 <shachaf> Do you have a good idea of what a good code golf site would be like?
01:37:24 <ais523> better than average, I guess; I'm not sure about good
01:37:42 <ais523> I think one thing you have to make a choice about is whether you allow people to compete in languages the site doesn't know about
01:38:13 <ais523> the ideal here would probably be "no, but there's an easy / lightweight way to teach the site about a new language"
01:41:58 <ais523> ah right, I also had the idea that the CAPTCHA would be submitting a competitive solution to a recently submitted problem
01:42:13 <ais523> something that most legitimate users should be able to do but most spammers won't be able to, even human spammers
01:42:42 <ais523> (this is similar to the CAPTCHA-equivalent used by some gaming servers for 1v1 games, which require you to win a ranked game)
01:48:11 <shachaf> You should write up your thoughts about how the site would work somewhere.
01:48:44 <ais523> need to write them down first, though!
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03:01:17 <doesthiswork> I saved ais523's answer's from last time this topic came up
03:01:42 <ais523> pastebin them somewhere? it'd help me avoid having to remember them
03:04:34 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Are you going to make the website?
03:04:42 <doesthiswork> I like reading design documents, so when people refuse to make them I console myself with lists of features
03:06:02 <ais523> luckily I like /writing/ design documents
03:06:05 <ais523> so if you just want one of those, there's a chance :-)
03:07:03 <shachaf> Readable link: https://pastebin.com/raw/V4sHNvy6
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03:08:00 <doesthiswork> I could try making a site, but because I've never done more than individual web pages
03:09:38 <shachaf> Yesterday I cloned someone's website program in a few hours because the only way it worked was by sending information to the server.
03:10:03 <ais523> doesthiswork: that's probably a bad idea because something like this is a) very stateful (therefore easy to get wrong) and b) heavily dependent on sandboxing
03:10:36 <shachaf> Maybe you could make a first version without running programs
03:10:49 <ais523> shachaf: actually it does (Stack Snippets), but a program runner would be a very desired feature for a golfing site
03:10:59 <ais523> on PPCG, people normally use Try It Online!
03:11:30 <shachaf> You should put your site at code.golf except it's taken
03:11:31 <ais523> hmm, we should teach HackEgo Jelly
03:12:15 <shachaf> What's Jelly, a golfing language?
03:12:28 <shachaf> Why are golfing languages interesting?
03:12:34 <ais523> the best general-purpose one of the non-vapourware languages
03:12:35 <shachaf> All they do is make all programs shorter.
03:12:59 <ais523> golfing languages are interesting because they get closer to the way you think about problems
03:13:08 <ais523> in a way, they're closer to natural languages than most programming languages are
03:13:23 <ais523> the reason is that describing the problem is nearly always shorter than describing how to solve it
03:13:44 <shachaf> Well, golfing languages that use a fancy byte encoding.
03:13:49 <ais523> so in a way, the more expressive a language is, the better it is at being a golfing language
03:14:04 <ais523> things like fancy encodings and the like are side issues, the core functionality is much more important
03:14:19 <shachaf> OK, sure, the core functionality can be interesting.
03:14:34 <ais523> most good golfing languages make significant use of higher-order constructs
03:16:34 <ais523> oh, hmm, now I almost want to work on The Underlambda Project again
03:16:47 <ais523> although being written in a language that doesn't currently exist doesn't help matters
03:17:30 <ais523> it's intended to be a single program that's a compiler/interpreter with a very large number of esolangs as frontends and backends, i.e. it can compile a program in esolang X into esolang Y, or run it directly
03:17:46 <ais523> however, it's /also/ written in a language it supports, so it can translate itself into any of those languages (via quining functionality)
03:18:11 <ais523> not very efficient, but lets you create an interpreter or compiler for any supported esolang in any other
03:18:25 <ais523> (I might also include practical languages as output formats, and maybe even subsets of them as input formats)
03:19:24 <ais523> shachaf: anyway, this is a good example of the power of golfing languages: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/120979
03:19:39 <ais523> just try to write something like that in C or Java or Python, it'll be much less clear what the program actually does
03:19:56 <ais523> whereas ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= is close to a direct description of the problem
03:24:12 <lambdabot> (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]]
03:24:14 <lambdabot> [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
03:24:53 <shachaf> That's some pretty good golf.
03:25:05 <shachaf> Today I saw an algorithm for computing square roots using only addition and subtraction.
03:25:20 <shachaf> It was surprisingly simple.
03:25:35 <ais523> is that the one that looks like long division?
03:26:33 <shachaf> The way it works is, to compute sqrt(n), you start with a=5*n, b=5
03:26:51 <shachaf> As long as a >= b, you set (a,b) = (a-b, b+10)
03:27:32 <ais523> oh, hmm, that's more of a bressenham-style algorithm, and different from what I was thinking of
03:27:37 <shachaf> Otherwise you set (a,b) = (100*a, floor(b/10)*100+5)
03:27:52 <shachaf> Which is an awkward way of saying you add two zeros to the end of a and you put a zero as the digit before last in b
03:28:41 <ais523> anyway, golfing languages are normally easier to write in than practical languages for small programs
03:28:55 <ais523> because they're so much more expressive (and often have more builtins too)
03:29:15 <ais523> if they became popular enough I'd imagine they'd take over from things like Perl for short one-line programs
03:29:37 <ais523> they're normally quite bad at maintaining state / doing imperative things, though
03:29:52 <ais523> because they think in terms of descriptions-of-solutions rather than the route you get there
03:30:36 <shachaf> > let f (a,b) | a >= b = (a-b, b+10) | otherwise = (100*a, (b `div` 10) * 100 + 5) in iterate f (5*2,5) !! 30
03:31:03 <doesthiswork> what kind of properties would make a language work well when you don't understand some of the features and you don't understand the rest of the program you're working on?
03:31:19 <shachaf> > let f (a,b) | a >= b = (a-b, b+10) | otherwise = (100*a, (b `div` 10) * 100 + 5) in map snd $ iterate f (5*2,5)
03:31:22 <lambdabot> [5,15,105,115,125,135,145,1405,1415,14105,14115,14125,14135,14145,141405,141...
03:31:23 <ais523> doesthiswork: you don't understand some of the language or of the program?
03:31:41 <ais523> I'd recommend language features that strongly encourage encapsulation in that case, e.g. strong typing, a heavy use of small subroutines, minimal state
03:32:04 <ais523> that way you can normally write code that's independently useful regardless of what the rest of the program actually does
03:32:26 <ais523> (fwiw, I think that this is the driving force behind Java's design: writing a language which is usable by large teams of low-skilled programmers)
03:33:09 <ais523> I'm not sure, it might depend on the details
03:38:58 <ais523> dependent types basically give a very strong, machine-readable specification of how a function's arguments and return value are meant to work and what the function's meant to do
03:39:13 <ais523> so I guess it'd help, except that dependently-typed languages are normally very hard to write in generally
03:39:25 <ais523> which may well make them worse at everything but less worse than this, rather than better at this
03:42:41 <doesthiswork> My thought was that specifying more of what you think is going on so you can be informed that you were mistaken generally helps in cases like this, but when you're wrong in an unimportant way strictness makes it more difficult to get things done
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04:40:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> That's some pretty good golf. <-- erm isn't [4..]!!n just 4+n, that doesn't seem very golfed.
04:41:27 <oerjan> oh wait Int vs. Integer
04:41:41 <lambdabot> [show(foldr(\k a->20*100^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..[4,8..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
04:41:51 <shachaf> That one is even more golfed but it's too slow for lambdabot to evaluate.
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19:54:12 <HackEgo> 1/2:tanea//Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj. \ photograph//A photograph is a device for creating photograms. \ monads//Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras. \ beethoven's ninth symphony//Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files. \ entryms
19:54:19 <HackEgo> 2/2:g//ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>
19:56:06 <HackEgo> 9730:2016-11-18 <oerjän> slwd entrymsg//s,wiki,, \ 8218:2016-05-30 <b_jonäs> learn ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
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20:18:14 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
20:18:40 <Taneb> Can someone who knows how these things work do the slashwisdom for /Yorj/Cambridgf/
20:19:19 <int-e> slwd tanea//s/Yorj/Cambridgd/
20:19:22 <int-e> `slwd tanea//s/Yorj/Cambridgd/
20:19:24 <HackEgo> tanea//Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Cambridgd.
20:20:07 <int-e> I guess boily would've used ssYorjsCambridgds
20:20:35 <Taneb> doesthiswork, quite possibly
20:21:20 <int-e> . o O ( How's life on Cambridge? )
20:21:21 <Taneb> I think they're the same Yorj
20:21:48 <Taneb> int-e, I like my job but I'm not a huge fan of the city
20:22:06 <Taneb> It feels a lot bigger than York did, and I don't really know many people
20:24:50 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you should move to an even bigger city
20:25:01 <shachaf> Then move back to Cambridge and it'll feel small by comparison.
20:25:30 <shachaf> Are you going to ICFP 2018?
20:25:37 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't know yet
20:25:39 <shachaf> Wait, that one's in Missouri.
20:25:44 <Taneb> I'd certainly like to
20:27:07 <shachaf> I recommend moving from York to New York
20:27:22 <Taneb> shachaf, sadly I've left York now so I'll have to move to New Cambridge instead
20:27:50 <shachaf> I like New York, I was there a couple of weeks ago.
20:30:03 <shachaf> You could move to the Bronx.
20:31:47 <shachaf> I was walking in the street there and saw 2br apartments selling for <$400k. I was surprised.
20:32:43 <shachaf> I suspect that's pretty expensive for rural Idaho.
20:34:39 <shachaf> But it's in NY, and cheaper than anything around here.
20:35:15 <shachaf> I guess sometimes apartments that you "buy" have high HOA fees which makes the price kind of meaningless.
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22:01:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BradensEsolangs * New user account
22:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53359&oldid=53313 * BradensEsolangs * (+149) Introduced myself
22:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53360&oldid=53359 * BradensEsolangs * (+107) signed
22:24:02 <fizzie> fungot: Tell me something about gnomes?
22:24:03 <fungot> fizzie: hunter: what of the heavens, as a matter of course, but it will take you away from the third age a troll-race not before seen appeared in paris at just about the ground, he soon turned it into his sleeves. the stone sunk into his mouth and jaws were completely hidden, and most corrosive agents, and burn all the primates, as if it still seems to have been born to command the undead, has ever managed to cheat him out of i
22:24:36 <fizzie> fungot: That was pretty incoherent, even for you.
22:24:36 <fungot> fizzie: always sweep the floor. an elf would smell its rancid stench at ten metres distance.
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22:33:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:34:29 <fizzie> I thought that'd have the best chance re gnomes.
22:35:20 <shachaf> fizzie: You should make a good golf site for ais523
22:35:47 <fizzie> Not until they write down & up the things that make up a good golf site. (Also not after that either.)
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23:18:42 <shachaf> But you're a great web developer
23:18:54 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/bin/edit
23:19:44 <shachaf> `sled bin/edit//s/http/https/g
23:19:46 <HackEgo> bin/edit//#!/usr/bin/env python \ \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ \ if len(sys.argv) < 2: \ sys.exit('httpss://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/') \ \ f = os.path.realpath(sys.argv) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|\.hg(?:/|ignore$|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is not editable.") \ print 'httpss://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/'
23:20:38 <shachaf> Oh, the version in there was synced a long time ago
23:36:15 <fizzie> People don't use `edit much.
23:36:37 <fizzie> Besides, I think the zjoust website is much more of a web-development showcase.
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