←2017-11-09 2017-11-10 2017-11-11→ ↑2017 ↑all
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00:53:32 <oerjan> fizzie: you have access to the CaC panel now?
00:54:16 <fizzie> oerjan: No, I just asked the big G to check.
00:54:26 <fizzie> (Don't want to ping them unnecessarily.)
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01:03:57 <oerjan> `? atrix
01:04:05 <oerjan> oh right
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01:07:43 <fizzie> At least my most recent backup is less than a day old. But we don't exactly have an alternative place ready.
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04:38:17 <shachaf> copumpkin: yopumpkin
04:38:27 <shachaf> do you read Matt Levine twh
04:45:12 <copumpkin> hi shachaf
04:45:14 <copumpkin> no
04:47:07 <copumpkin> how goes it?
04:47:15 <shachaf> why not, he's the best
04:47:32 <shachaf> is it because he makes fun of Bridgewater?
04:54:53 <copumpkin> lol who doesn't
05:01:44 <copumpkin> I mean, I've read occasional articles of his
05:01:51 <copumpkin> but I wouldn't say I read him
05:01:56 <copumpkin> you do?
05:04:10 <shachaf> Of course
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11:45:28 <b_jonas> ...
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11:45:47 <APic>
11:45:49 <b_jonas> fungot, how many examples have you seen when a big corporate website was redesigned and it became better as a result?
11:45:49 <fungot> b_jonas: they say that an apple will fall to the size of the gods as well". as a mare, flea, fly, falcon, seal, and from my sheath i drew my snickersnee! --koko, lord of the ring, by sir w.s. gilbert)
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12:07:02 <b_jonas> argh! why is 7z trying to recurse into subdirectories when I'm specifically telling it to -r-
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14:59:25 <b_jonas> `ping
14:59:33 <b_jonas> I think the server is down again
14:59:36 <b_jonas> I can't reach the wiki
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15:25:47 <quintopia> grow longer arms
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16:29:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: See topic.
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17:04:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok
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19:52:46 <rdococ> In languages where functions may return multiple values, would it make sense for a function that returns no values to effectively act as if there was literally nothing there? e.g. let's say f() returns true if it is called with 0 parameters. Now let's say void() returns zero arguments. Then f(void()) would be true.
19:53:14 <rdococ> I mean, of course it might, but that's not what I've seen in practice.... although I've only seen one language where functions may return multiple values, so...
19:53:38 <alercah> rdococ: so, sort of you could
19:53:51 <alercah> from a theroetical sense, it's actually returning a member of a one-element type
19:54:06 <alercah> rather than a zero-element type, since you can't return
19:55:23 <\oren\> well, hmm, if void was treated as a proper type
19:55:37 <\oren\> then you could have variables, like
19:55:39 <\oren\> void x;
19:56:57 <\oren\> so really there's "a type with no values", "a type with 1 value", and "not really a type"
19:57:10 <\oren\> as different voids
19:58:34 <alercah> yeah
19:58:37 <\oren\> void in C is not really a type, it's used where the syntax requires a type but there isn't one
19:58:55 <alercah> or alternatively it's a 1-value type that can't be used in all contexts
19:59:01 <\oren\> right
19:59:25 <\oren\> but suppose there was a type Void
20:00:39 <\oren\> then you could do everything with it, but it would rarely actually compile into any code
20:00:55 <\oren\> void f(void)
20:01:16 <\oren\> void y; void x = f(y);
20:02:00 <\oren\> if sizeof(void) is 0, then void pointers would be usable better
20:02:06 <\oren\> well kind of
20:02:24 <\oren\> void *x = malloc(sizeof(void))
20:03:23 <\oren\> i wonder how rust does void
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20:38:20 <rdococ> If functions are thought of as returning tuples containing each return value, rather than returning those return values individually, then returning nothing would be equivalent to returning an empty tuple containing no values.
20:41:37 <rdococ> Hmm... is there even a way to use zero-element types? I mean, if they have *zero* elements, then how would that type do anything?
21:00:43 <rdococ> Huh. Apparently a bottom type may be classified as the return value of functions which never return (e.g. infinite loops, or functions that exit to other continuations).
21:00:50 <rdococ> s/return value/return type
21:09:19 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
21:09:19 <lambdabot> CYVR 102100Z 28010KT 15SM FEW004 BKN023 09/08 A2990 RMK SC2CU4 SLP128
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22:09:11 <zzo38> GNU C does allow struct{} with no fields, with size zero.
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22:12:21 <fizzie> \oren\: You can have an "extern void x;"
22:12:44 <fizzie> You could have a regular "void x;", it's just that void is an incomplete type that can never be completed.
22:13:01 <shachaf> I wish C++ supported void values.
22:13:41 <zzo38> If you want a empty type then use struct{} instead of void
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22:14:02 <fizzie> C11 6.2.5p19: "The `void` type comprises an empty set of values; it is an incomplete object type that cannot be completed."
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22:16:39 <zzo38> Yes, but struct{} type has one possible value, like () in Haskell. But, void is no type; used when there is no return value (it returns without giving a value) or when it is void* is a pointer to not specifying what is the pointer to type.
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22:19:01 <fizzie> You can also have a function declaration like int f(int x, void y, double z); but it's not super-useful, since you can't have a definition for it, nor can you call it.
22:19:14 <\oren\> actually, I looked and it turns out I have an empty struct in one of my projects
22:19:29 <\oren\> it has a bunch of methods but no data in it
22:19:38 <fizzie> \oren\: Your project is not strictly conf.. oh, C++.
22:19:56 <fizzie> That's allowed, though I think it has a non-zero size in C++?
22:19:56 <\oren\> yeah C++
22:20:00 <zzo38> fizzie: Is it even allowed?
22:20:13 <shachaf> I think it's allowed in C++ with a non-zero size.
22:20:33 <zzo38> I think the GNU documentation says that in C++ the sizeof empty struct is one, but in C mode, the size is zero, which is more sensible.
22:20:55 <fizzie> I think so too. The non-zero size had something to do with the necessity of having different subobjects for multiple inheritance, or some-such
22:22:03 <shachaf> Well, there's also the fact that you have two objects they can't have the same address, or something like that?
22:22:05 <\oren\> basically it used to have data in it but now only the derived classes have data
22:22:06 <shachaf> I don't remember.
22:22:23 <fizzie> https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/classes-and-objects#sizeof-empty says that, yeah. "To ensure that the addresses of two different objects will be different."
22:23:00 <fizzie> \oren\: structs with only pure virtual methods (and no data) are pretty conventional way to define interfaces in C++.
22:23:59 <zzo38> GNU C also allows the number of elements in an array to be zero, which in my opinion is also sensible (such as a field in a struct).
22:24:00 <fizzie> Looks like I was remembering the base class thing almost exactly the other way around -- empty base classes don't need to have distinct bytes in the resulting object.
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←2017-11-09 2017-11-10 2017-11-11→ ↑2017 ↑all