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00:02:06 <fizzie> PinealGlandOptic: The library used by one implementation of 'file' (e.g. the one in Debian/Ubuntu) is called 'magic', which you can link to and use programmatically.
00:02:38 <fizzie> See https://linux.die.net/man/3/libmagic for example.
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01:41:50 <doesthiswork> I came up with a great idea for a language for programming in the large. Whenever you call a user defined function you have to specify the exact value of the result. If the actual result doesn't match what you provided, the program quits.
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01:58:41 <doesthiswork> Oh, yes I was assumeing that the functions had to be defined before being used. Forward references are a sloppy practice
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02:02:20 <alercah> doesthiswork: except that then functions would be entirely useless
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02:06:24 <doesthiswork> Best practice is functions for their self documenting names. That is still an important purpose
02:10:50 <Roger9> I'd agree with alercah.
02:12:41 <alercah> doesthiswork: That's removed if you have to repeat the definition anyway.
02:12:52 <alercah> It might as well just be a local variable.
02:14:12 <doesthiswork> That's a good point. Local variables are are underconstrained, and can be used as a loophole.
02:14:50 <alercah> x = f[results in y + 2](y)
02:14:54 <alercah> you might well say x = y+2
02:15:01 <alercah> x_f = y+2 to preserve the name
02:15:36 <doesthiswork> Perhaps you should recapitulate how the variable got the value it has every time you use it, so you don't get it confused with other variables
02:16:54 <doesthiswork> treating it kind of like a 0 argument function
02:17:26 <alercah> I suppose you could do that
02:17:35 <alercah> But then, again, why have a variable?
02:17:42 <alercah> Why not simply write the expression inline everywhere
02:17:52 <alercah> since every experession would need a full expansion of everything
02:18:05 <alercah> and you'd lose mutable state
02:19:06 <doesthiswork> because variables are an important component of abstraction and generalization. Getting rid of them entirely would make the program harder to read
02:19:35 <alercah> But this would be equivalent to that
02:19:46 <alercah> If I write x = y[definition of y]+2
02:20:00 <alercah> then to use x I have to write z = x[definition of x, which includes definition of y]*2
02:20:11 <alercah> I can't use any values without retyping the entire code leading up to them
02:20:15 <alercah> defeating the point of abstraction
02:21:09 <doesthiswork> Well, people can get confused when things get too abstract. Its good to have concrete examples to help explicate and ground it.
02:22:23 <doesthiswork> Maybe it would be more efficient if the compiler substituted in the definitions for you
02:24:06 <doesthiswork> So you wouldn't have to spend time typing redundant information. I think you have a good point
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02:41:04 <alercah> If the compiler substitutes the definitions then isn't that the same as not requiring them in the ifrst place?
02:52:55 <doesthiswork> No, because if you didn't require them then it would be easy to call the wrong function by mistake.
02:54:10 <alercah> But if the compiler is substituting definitions in
02:54:14 <alercah> then there is no guarantee
02:54:21 <alercah> since the compiler will just provide the wrong one
03:01:11 <doesthiswork> Ok, so it needs some extra redundancy to cat the compiler substitution errors. Maybe you could type in a hash that should match what the compiler will substitute in. This would protect against the compiler makeing the wrong substitution
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14:08:58 <ais523> watered: it's about esoteric programming
14:21:38 <watered> any interesting accomplishments of this language?
14:22:22 <ais523> it's not a single language, esoteric programming languages are basically the entire family of languages for which being useful to use in practice is not a primary goal
14:23:04 <ais523> there are a number of other reasons to write languages, e.g. to learn how to write languages, to explore the edges of what's possible in programming, as art
14:23:49 <ais523> you can prove plenty of things with esoteric programming languages, but they're mostly confined to other esoteric programming languages
14:23:57 <ais523> some of the most practical proofs I've been seen have been related to exploits in other programs
14:24:17 <ais523> showing that you can exploit the bug to do anything via implementing an esolang (= esoteric programming language) usnig it
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15:00:51 <Slereah_> Actually esoteric languages are very useful for computation theory
15:01:16 <Slereah_> IIRC the proof for the control structure theorem was done in the original brainfuck
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18:46:34 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
18:53:02 <fizzie> I'm still planning to move it to some slightly more reputable host, and ask (in a tasteful way, y'know) for people to contribute to the costs (est. around $5/month).
18:53:09 <fizzie> I was thinking we might have an "Esolang:Backers" page (or some such), where you could get your name on by donating (and opting in). Let me know if you find this offensive / have other objections / thoughts.
18:58:49 <ais523> I'm not offended by the request
18:59:32 <ais523> I find sending money over the Internet to be a huge hassle though, to the extent that I tend not to be responsive to requests for money because the act of sending it is so complex
19:02:10 <fizzie> That's fair. I believe receiving it is pretty complicated as well, though I got some tips from a random person who emailed me re the note I had left on top of the backup wiki copy.
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19:44:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: also, transferring money online, as opposed to paying with money online, when it's in a foreign currency, has a high constant fee at my bank, so it's not really practical. whereas anything on paypal has a high percentage fee.
19:46:15 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sending banknotes in an envelope has a low enough fee, but is not insured.
19:47:14 <fizzie> Yeah, most of the things I've looked at have had percentage fees attached. Not sure if I'd call them "high", but still.
19:48:52 <fizzie> Maybe we should just be selling my fungot T-shirt design online, it's already got an esolangs.org link on it. ;)
19:48:52 <fungot> fizzie: they say that eating royal jelly attracts grizzly owlbears. ( travels and researches in south africa, by e. howard, bjorn nyberg, and the light but warm silken stuff that the ladies were accustomed to wearing luxurious clothings and so he flew along the slender catwalk that still seemed awfully insubstantial to flynn, though they are quite difficult to kill large animals... their lower teeth fit perfectly into the requi
19:49:03 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it's tricky, because they always list their nominal fees for various operations, such as transfer or payment, and those are low. but paypal insists that I can only send HUF to my account, and they're only willing to charge my bank card in HUF, and convert currency themselves, and they convert it very expensively, whereas my bank converts th
19:49:32 <wob_jonas> They are clearly doing that to add a hidden fee, because my bank can handle charges on my bank card in any reasonable currency.
19:50:32 <fizzie> Yeah. I think I had some PayPal worries when moving from Finland to UK as well, they seem pretty strict about the account being tied to a particular country and having one currency.
19:50:38 <fizzie> Will have to investigate more, I guess.
19:50:52 <fizzie> Of course there's always BitCoin.
19:51:56 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, my brother complained even more about it, since he lives in Sweden, and had troubles with telling paypal that
19:52:26 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it's like a lot of commercial wobsites on the internet are optimized to the case when they can guess your country and language from your IP.
19:52:35 <wob_jonas> And they never allow you to second guess.
19:53:02 <wob_jonas> Like, there's websites for scientific publishers that serve journal articles for free to "developing countries".
19:53:59 <wob_jonas> And this is international websites, not the websites of all-Hungarian stores, which are even worse.
19:54:39 <wob_jonas> In particular, mediamarkt.hu has a most terrible website for online orders, but since there are only like seven big electronics stores in Hungary, you can't just choose another one.
19:55:37 <wob_jonas> I hope the post will eventually just kick them in the butt for sending mass packages with improperly printed addresses.
19:56:14 <wob_jonas> And then they won't be able to offer free or cheap postage.
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19:59:48 <fizzie> I'm paying Finnish VAT rates for my DigitalOcean host instead of the UK ones, because they don't let you set the VAT country, it's forced to be the country of the bank issuing the credit card you're paying with. (And the Finnish card has better currency conversion than the UK one.)
20:01:36 <wob_jonas> fizzie: which one of those has a higher VAT for that?
20:01:46 <fizzie> Finland, unfortunately.
20:04:01 <shachaf> Does that make up for the higher VAT?
20:04:48 <fizzie> shachaf: I think that's what I ended up getting, when I tried to check.
20:05:06 <fizzie> Although I have a vague feeling I shouldn't be able to choose, but the VAT should be based on residency.
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> I've no idea how it's supposed to work
20:06:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know. It's not like there's a physical location where they're selling the thing.
20:07:12 <int-e> I also think that's how it works in theory (residency).
20:09:03 <int-e> but giving a false address is probably easier than giving a bank account in a different country...
20:09:56 <shachaf> just move somewhere with no VAT hth
20:09:59 <int-e> (I expect that nobody's verifying that address.)
20:10:12 <shachaf> How do I find out my credit card's exchange rates?
20:10:34 <int-e> pay with it and let yourself be surprised?
20:10:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ask your bank. my bank has a homepage on the internet, and if you dig through all the legalese that is deliberately written confusing so you don't understand it, and phone them up to clear up ambiguities, you can usually figure out everything.
20:11:15 <int-e> (the real answer is to read the terms of service, which *should* tell you how the bank handles foreign currency transactions)
20:11:17 <wob_jonas> I think most banks have similar homepages.
20:11:24 <shachaf> Most of my credit/debit cards have a foreign transaction fee.
20:11:35 <shachaf> Recently I got one that doesn't (it should arrive in the mail soon)
20:12:09 <int-e> I think they add about 3% to the official exchange rate in my case.
20:12:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: not high ones though. they have a high fee for foreign transfers, and a higher than usual fee for withdrawing cash in foreign countries, but for just card or online payment they only use a currency sell exchange rate which has a low margin.
20:12:55 <int-e> But I didn't check.
20:13:09 <shachaf> I think the usual fee is around 3%
20:13:16 <wob_jonas> I'm quite sure they don't add a fee for foreign currency payments for me.
20:14:14 <int-e> I'd expect it to be hidden in the exchange rate.
20:15:14 <shachaf> But if they can set the exchange rate 3% higher, they can do the same thing even if you do pay an additional fee.
20:15:24 <shachaf> Also foreign transactions can be USD, I think.
20:16:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: the sell and buy exchange rate for that definitely differ, but nothing as big as 3% is hidden there.
20:17:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: for transfers, they charge the very high flat rate if the destination is a bank account not in Hungary or the currency is not HUF. for payment, neither matters.
20:17:36 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure about foreign currency withdrawal for ATM, I've never needed to check that.
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20:24:53 <shachaf> "We're sorry, but we're currently upgrading our Website."
20:25:03 <shachaf> Who upgrades their website during business hours?
20:34:46 <wob_jonas> shachaf: business hours where? It's in the night!
20:35:06 <shachaf> This website has "us" in the domain name
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21:12:28 <\oren\> I should write an antivirus that actually just mines bitcoins when you scan
21:14:03 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, there already exist malware masquarading as an antivirus
21:14:16 <wob_jonas> I don't know if there's a bitcoin mining one in particular, but in general these exist
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22:13:56 <wob_jonas> fungot, why did I try to look up best practices when I already know what I want the answer to be? now I just have to worry I'm not doing what the interweb says.
22:13:57 <fungot> wob_jonas: they say that a fortune only has 1 line and you should call your armor before sitting on a strictly cartesian sense.
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22:17:03 <int-e> so the advantage of asking fungot is that you won't know what the answer will be?
22:17:03 <fungot> int-e: they say that nurses sometimes carry scalpels and never use a unicorn horn means you've missed the bunch. turning round again with a face of the stone would fall again. ( i wandered lonely as a cloud in fear. the christian calendar adopted the same fashion that a wizard!"
22:17:49 <HackEgo> horn:Horn is the reduction system behind Prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns. \ ipu:IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
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22:18:13 <HackEgo> <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ <b_jonäs> learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns.
22:18:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, it looked like one of mine but I didn't remember setting it
22:18:48 <HackEgo> 7107:2016-03-06 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ 7105:2016-03-06 <b_jonäs> learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns.
22:19:00 <int-e> not so recent I guess
22:19:24 <wob_jonas> yeah, but few of my wisdoms are recent anyway
22:19:41 <HackEgo> 8400:2016-06-08 <oerjän> sled wisdom/submarine jousting//s/./S/ \ 8399:2016-06-07 <boil̈y> le/rn submarine jousting/submarine jousting is unexplainable. \ 8398:2016-06-07 <boil̈y> le/rn submarine jousting/This is unexplainable.
22:19:58 <HackEgo> The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
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22:58:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53361 * Fizzie * (+2919) esolangs.org hosting funding proposal
23:01:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53362&oldid=52884 * Fizzie * (+69) (Temporary) link to "Esolang talk:Funding" for visibility
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23:54:20 <HackEgo> olist 1105: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas