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01:52:25 <ais523> hi Downgoat, Downgoat_
01:52:40 <Downgoat_> I think I IRCd incorrcetly which is why they are two downgoat :|
01:52:47 <ais523> apart from connecting twice you seem to have done everything correctly
01:53:03 <ais523> other one's a ghost by the look of things, it'll probably time out in a couple of minutes
01:53:30 <ais523> Downgoat's a regular at PPCG, they're apparently discussing making a new golfing site too and are much further on than we are
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01:54:01 <ais523> no, only a few of us are
01:54:07 <shachaf> I'm not on PPCG but I like code golf.
01:54:24 <ais523> code golf is fairly popular here because there's a lot of overlap, but few people here actually golf regularly
01:54:44 <ais523> sometimes I look at PPCG and have a go at a question if it looks sufficiently interesting, but (after deleting my account) I've only posted once
01:54:51 <Downgoat> well our current code is hosted on GH here: https://github.com/Mego/PPCG-v2
01:54:58 <ais523> because the site works so much better when it's not trying to force you to get rep
01:55:08 <Downgoat> and for those who use stackexchange we have a chat here: https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/68212/ppcg-v2
01:55:24 <Downgoat> but we have auth, posts, markdown rendering, and we're working on other stuff
01:55:44 <Downgoat> but we don't really have a plan on what things we actually want so that's still for desciding
01:56:03 <ais523> I think some sort of automatic program runner/verifier is one of the features that a) golf sites most benefit from and b) PPCG doesn't have, although you can't use it in all contexts
01:56:30 <Downgoat> Yeah. if we're all familar with TIO, we're planning on using that heavily
01:56:36 <shachaf> How do you think a golf site should address nondeterminism like $$?
01:56:49 <ais523> anagolf's latest solution fixes that pretty neatly
01:57:04 <ais523> allow anyone to re-mark the program, it gets removed from the leaderboards if it's "magically" stopped working
01:57:22 <shachaf> So the program has to work consistently.
01:57:28 <ais523> this also means that in questions where your program is meant to work for all inputs, you can use the recheck request to submit a counterexample; that doesn't work in anagolf because it has a fairly primitive marking system
01:57:43 <shachaf> Hmm, I wonder whether people have used programs that rely on the current date.
01:57:58 <ais523> under PPCG rules your program would have to work consistently too (because requiring a particular $$ would count as an illegal form of input)
01:58:31 <shachaf> What about a program that only works in the 21st century?
01:58:37 <ais523> shachaf: on the original code golfing site, which predated anagolf and collapsed due to not having questions very often, someone used time() as a magic number once
01:59:23 <ais523> I think if you're going to write a program in http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 or something like that, having the recheck link not work is not really a huge issue
01:59:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
01:59:52 <shachaf> So that's what that's about.
01:59:54 <ais523> although I think having something like a "disputed" or even "invalid" tag that people can vote onto or off the post would be worthwhile, in cases where it's unclear whether the program complies with the rules
02:00:49 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, I see a big loophole in that implementation
02:00:55 <ais523> it should have just hardcoded the "2014"
02:01:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
02:01:45 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 79 Oct 28 2016 bin/2014 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 80 Oct 28 2016 bin/2015
02:01:57 <ais523> `perl 'system "bin/2014" "2017"'
02:01:58 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "'system "bin/2014" "2017"'": No such file or directory
02:02:04 <ais523> `perl-e 'system "bin/2014" "2017"'
02:02:08 <ais523> `perl-e system "bin/2014" "2017"
02:02:09 <HackEgo> String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near ""bin/2014" "2017"" \ (Missing operator before "2017"?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near ""bin/2014" "2017"" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
02:02:17 <HackEgo> 5227:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> sed -i \'s/2014/$(basename "$0")/\' bin/2014 \ 5219:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` chmod +x bin/2014 \ 5218:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "fi" >> bin/2014 \ 5217:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "then echo \\"Hello, world!\\"" >> bin/2014 \ 5216:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "if [ \\$(date +%Y) = \\"2014\\" ]" >> bin/2014 \ 5215:2014-12-3
02:02:23 <fizzie> ais523: I didn't even know we were discussing making a golfing site.
02:02:28 <HackEgo> 6472:2015-12-31 <oerjän> revert \ 6471:2015-12-31 <izaber̈a> ` sed -i s/!// bin/2015 \ 5231:2015-01-02 <oerjän> ` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed -i \'s/=/!=/\' bin/2015 \ 5230:2015-01-02 <oerjän> rm bin/2015 \ 5229:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> ` ln bin/2014 bin/2015 \ 5228:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> rm bin/2015 \ 5226:2015-01-02 <oerjän> ` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed
02:02:35 <ais523> fizzie: we did a couple of times, I'm not sure if you were there at the time
02:02:42 <shachaf> fizzie: I think we were mostly discussing how we wouldn't do it.
02:02:57 <shachaf> You participated saying you wouldn't do it, if I remember correctly.
02:03:08 <fizzie> Yes, though I don't think ais523 was here at *that* time.
02:03:42 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017"
02:03:52 <shachaf> Is your code golf site going to support multiple metrics to optimize?
02:03:55 <ais523> hmm, I finally got the right syntax, but it still doesn't work? probably the path is wrong
02:04:02 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $@
02:04:06 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $!
02:04:16 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $?
02:04:16 <shachaf> You can measure things other than program length.
02:04:26 <ais523> OK, Perl, now you're just screwing with me
02:04:35 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/2014"} "2017"
02:05:25 <ais523> this is normally the point at which I'd attach a debugger but that's kind-of hard in HackEgo
02:06:24 <shachaf> `runc execl("bin/2014", "2017", NULL);
02:06:37 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/nonexistent-executable"} "2017"
02:06:50 <ais523> OK, so it is finding the executable
02:06:55 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/2014"} "bin/2017"
02:07:18 <shachaf> `` echo $'#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nprint sys.argv\n' > tmp/args && chmod +x tmp/args
02:07:26 <shachaf> `runc execl("tmp/args", "2017", NULL);
02:07:32 <shachaf> `runc execl("/hackenv/tmp/args", "2017", NULL);
02:07:47 <HackEgo> ['/hackenv/tmp/args', 'abc']
02:08:15 <shachaf> `perl-e print system {"pwd"} "pwd"
02:08:23 <fizzie> Pet nitpicking opportunity: that should be (char *)NULL.
02:08:54 <ais523> fizzie: I misread "Pet" as "Perl", and tried to figure out how that could possibly hep
02:09:13 <ais523> Downgoat: as you can see, this channel tends to get sidetracked fairly easily
02:09:41 <shachaf> `runc execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL);
02:09:42 <fizzie> shachaf: The intention was "no, it wouldn't help", I think.
02:10:07 <shachaf> fizzie: Maybe you can use your C lawyer skills to figure out what's going wrong there?
02:10:30 <Downgoat> ais523: idk I lost track like 10 minutes ago
02:10:38 <fizzie> There's no automatic main wrapping or any other fancitude with `runc.
02:10:54 <shachaf> I must be thinking of another command or another bot.
02:10:56 <fizzie> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:09 <fizzie> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:12 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
02:11:17 <fizzie> Feel free to carry on.
02:11:33 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("bin/2014", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:43 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("tmp/args", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:59 <ais523> maybe the current bin/2014 wouldn't work even in 2014?
02:12:39 <ais523> hmm, that implies it's probably working
02:12:43 <shachaf> Oh, it's because it's Python, isn't it.
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02:14:06 <shachaf> I bet the Python interpreter is doing something to mess up argv[0]
02:14:31 <shachaf> `` echo $'#include <stdio.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) { while (*argv) { puts(*argv++); } }\n' > /tmp/args.c && gcc -o tmp/args /tmp/args.c
02:14:47 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("tmp/args", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:15:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
02:15:23 <fizzie> "If bash is invoked with a file of commands, $0 is set to the name of that file."
02:15:35 <shachaf> Ah, I was about to make a shell script to test that behavior.
02:15:47 <fizzie> That might apply also if it's invoked "with a file of commands" via "#!".
02:15:52 <ais523> yes, it would I thiink
02:16:37 <shachaf> ais523: What would be interesting to optimize other than byte count?
02:16:47 <shachaf> Speed and memory usage are a bit passé
02:17:29 <ais523> shachaf: the most interesting non-pure-golf problems are either optimizing some property of the source related but not identical to bytecount (number of unique characters is a common one, typically won by Unary or Lenguage)
02:18:01 <ais523> and challenges where your program has to work in as many ways as possible (e.g. run in as many languages as possible), often with a size limit or hybrid scoring
02:18:06 <ais523> radiation-hardening is fun too but kind-of niche
02:18:08 <shachaf> whoa, I expected you to say "optimising"
02:18:25 <ais523> shachaf: I've completely given up on -ise versus -ize
02:18:34 <shachaf> Radiation-hardening sounds like fun.
02:18:41 <ais523> like, I don't know which one's meant to be British English and which one's meant to be American English
02:18:45 <ais523> or if they're both both, or what
02:18:51 <ais523> nobody seems to know or care any more
02:19:01 <ais523> and it's mostly only a problem when it comes to naming identifiers, because you have to be consistent
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02:35:52 <ais523> huh, I just realised that I can hear my spam filter working
02:36:11 <ais523> I heard some sounds from the hard disk and thought "huh, I must have received an email"
02:36:16 <ais523> and the notification popped up a few seconds later
02:37:52 <shachaf> Your hard disk still makes sounds?
02:38:35 <ais523> the nice thing about rotational hard drives is that you can get a huge amount of storage for a small price
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02:56:41 <fizzie> Hmm. I was reading HMRC guidance, and it seems to me that esolangs.org would fall under the "charitable purposes" category.
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02:57:34 <fizzie> (The thing about HMRC-recognised charities is, donations to them are eligible for a thing called Gift Aid.)
02:57:58 <ais523> fizzie: it has to be explicitly registered as a charity, IIRC
02:58:07 <ais523> which probably comes with a number of legal requirements
02:58:32 <ais523> I think you could probably make the case that it's a charity, but the legal overhead for actually setting it up might well be too great
02:58:58 <shachaf> fizzie: What about your employer's donation matching?
02:59:35 <fizzie> You don't need to register with the Commission unless the yearly income of the charity exceeds £5000, or it's structured as a company.
02:59:46 <ais523> also I think gift aid would only be helpful from brits
03:00:07 <fizzie> You would need to apply for recognition from HMRC, but that seemed more lightweight.
03:00:11 <ais523> because the point is that you're donating part of your income to charity, so the government "matches" that with the tax revenue from the same amount of income
03:00:28 <ais523> and that implies that the income had british tax paid on it in the first place
03:01:40 <fizzie> Sure, I was mostly thinking about my own donations.
03:02:50 <fizzie> "To be a charitable aim for the public benefit, education must be capable of being ‘advanced’. This means to promote, sustain and increase individual and collective knowledge and understanding of specific areas of study, skills and expertise. -- The types of charities that are capable of advancing education include: information media such as the internet, --"
03:05:01 <fizzie> There was some bit about how it shouldn't benefit a "narrow group" (but I don't think that was meant to rule out things most people simply aren't interested in), and a bunch of restrictions of what a charity can do.
03:14:28 <fizzie> https://www.gov.uk/setting-up-charity/structures -- the last two don't have a corporate structure (so can't e.g. employ people or enter contracts, and the trustees keep personal responsibility), but as far as I can tell are still eligible for HMRC recognition.
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03:19:10 <fizzie> Though to be fair, while the wiki might qualify, fitting something like HackEgo under the "charitable purposes" label would be a bit of a stretch.
03:21:26 <fizzie> shachaf: For that, I would need to nominate the organisation first.
03:22:23 <fizzie> (I think it would be eligible per the guidelines.)
03:23:38 <fizzie> Also, another thing I've not been able to find out is the minimum number of trustees. (They need to be "fit and proper", to boot.)
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03:34:18 <doesthiswork> if you have to choose a name for the organization. fhtagn makes an excellent acronym
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03:48:45 <Downgoat> ais523: would voting on posts/questions be a good idea?
03:49:32 <ais523> Downgoat: well some questions are better than others, but the voting tends not to work out that well at PPCG
03:49:50 <ais523> normally questions get upvoted if they're easy, and although that's a popular type of question, it's not one that's universally liked
03:49:59 <ais523> perhaps it'd be better to have voting on categories rather than a single vote
03:50:19 <ais523> like, maybe you upvote a tag really high on a question if you think the question is really interesting to people who like that tag
03:52:56 <ais523> out of my two highest-upvoted questions, one is really good, the other fairly dubious, and I can't remember offhand which is higher
03:53:38 <ais523> good one's at 171, bad one at 89
03:53:44 <ais523> so at least the votes worked in that case
03:53:47 <ais523> it took a while, though!
03:55:07 <Downgoat> btw do you have any reccomendations on how question could be categorized beyond tags
03:55:13 <zzo38> I think I have read somewhere (I don't know if I remembered correctly?) that "-ize" is American (and I think also Canadian), while both "-ise" and "-ize" is British. I am not sure though.
03:55:33 <ais523> Downgoat: ideally it'd help people find the sort of questions they wanted, which is based on solution techniques
03:55:59 <ais523> and that can be very hard to figure out in advance
03:56:02 <ais523> so there might not be a good solution
03:56:29 <ais523> you can often guess in advance whether a winning solution is more algorithmic, more declarative, or more about microgolfing, though
03:56:45 <Downgoat> maybe like 'bookmark' or 'star' posts you personally want to reference
03:56:55 <ais523> (there's also [kolmogorov-complexity] which is very different from the rest of golfing, but it's already self-contained enough as it is)
03:57:06 <ais523> SE has a starring feature already, I (surprisingly!) have no problem with it
03:57:17 <shachaf> Why is kolmogolf different from other golf?
03:57:27 <zzo38> Actually "advertise" is "-ise" everywhere I think. I just looked it up in Wiktionary; it says "advertize" is archaic.
03:58:37 <ais523> shachaf: having long constant strings as an important part of the solution is normally looked down on in golfing as the question becomes about optimizing those rather than about the rest of the question
03:58:55 <ais523> and compression in that form can require some highly specialised techniques and things outside the normal goal of the language
03:59:08 <ais523> normally you're trying to spot and exploit patterns, rather than work out a clever algorithm
03:59:29 <shachaf> Isn't all golfing about Kolmogorov complexity?
03:59:46 <ais523> shachaf: well, sort of, but kolmogolf is specifically about when you have a fixed output to produce
03:59:59 <ais523> and the output chosen is normally ascii-art or the like, something with a repetitive but not uniform structure
04:00:15 <ais523> I guess you could think of regular golf being about writing functions, which run with no exceptions
04:00:22 <ais523> and kolmogolf about encoding the exceptions
04:02:13 <ais523> I'm not a huge fan of kolmogolf
04:02:39 <shachaf> How often is the most efficient algorithm implemented as eval + kolmogolf?
04:02:49 <ais523> I like reverse-kolmogolf but got disillusioned with it because I normally took much longer to write my answers than everyone else so didn't get upvotes even though they were IMO way more interesting (and shorter) than the other answers
04:02:58 <ais523> shachaf: it mostly only happens in PHP for some reason
04:03:15 <ais523> not on PPCG, because PHP isn't that popular there and because people don't often think of it
04:03:21 <ais523> but all the time on anagolf
04:04:42 <ais523> here's an example of reverse-kolmogolf (full disclosure: this is one of my questions): https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/105303
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04:08:49 <ais523> basically you have to recognise a large number of large inputs, but you know the input will be one of those, so you only have to focus on the differences and don't have to recognise the whole thing
04:09:20 <shachaf> Now that you deleted your account, you no longer post referral links, which I like.
04:09:26 <shachaf> I can't stand stackexchange referral links.
04:10:13 <ais523> shachaf: I got massively downvoted for complaining about some badges being seen by some people as a negative
04:10:41 <ais523> I mentioned the badge for people visiting your referral links as an example of that, thinking about you when I did
04:11:04 <ais523> that said, if you can get the badge for yourself, you can just as easily inflict it on someone else by editing the link, as there's no authentication on it
04:11:11 <ais523> and the badge is all it does
04:11:28 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you have any badges of shame?
04:13:31 <ais523> the badges are really counterproductive in many ways, though, for example the fact that you got a badge for filling out your profile incentivised me to not do it
04:13:43 <ais523> because I could always choose to do it later but I could never get rid of the badge
04:14:24 <ais523> I thought I'd be OK for it for something that was actually a game
04:14:27 <ais523> but I wasn't, the incentives are all wrong
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07:21:25 <zzo38> If you want to store a PC text screen (or anything that is close enough) with variable width and height, one format to use would be MZM, I think is work for such purpose.
07:22:36 <zzo38> The format is same like PC video memory but with a header that specifies the width and height.
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07:30:29 <variable> google doesn't show anything :\
07:32:03 <zzo38> Here is a description that I wrote myself: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/mzm.form
07:32:43 <zzo38> MegaZeux is capable of reading and writing this format, although it supports a superset of what I described. The subset I described is a subset which can be suitable for programs other than MegaZeux too.
07:33:49 <variable> unrelated: I've long wanted to write my own video *container* format - though certainly not an encoding
07:34:01 <variable> lots of features I want that nothing seems to provide
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07:35:57 <zzo38> What is it you wanted? I also made up such a container format, based on Ogg, but it is a bit different in order to avoid some of the problems of Ogg without adding the problems of other formats too, and without adding too much complexity.
07:36:41 <variable> the main thing I want is layers
07:37:17 <zzo38> Can you perhaps elaborate on that?
07:37:20 <variable> for example, sending a video, and an overlay with say bounding boxes, etc
07:37:40 <variable> the second thing I want is transformations-in-container as a layer
07:37:59 <variable> zzo38: so, lets say I have a standard video, but I want to be able to block out parts of it as a user-selectable action
07:38:06 <variable> or I want to insert shapes on top
07:38:32 <variable> or enable "high contrast mode" or "distorted mode" or whatever the change the underlying video is
07:38:39 <variable> i.e., I want composable videos
07:38:54 <zzo38> OK, although that seem then the layer codec may be need to add on.
07:39:07 <zzo38> This is my design: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/glogg
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07:41:07 <zzo38> Relation fields in the control block could be used to specify relations between different streams (whether with same or different codecs) if needed, so you could make the relation to the overlay with the video, or whatever.
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07:56:23 <Challenger5> Does anybody remember something about a lang with a really weird type system?
07:57:01 <Challenger5> As in, there were like 1-2 builtins that were so polymorphic they functioned as the standard library
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08:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ModanShogi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53363 * Zzo38 * (+469) Created page with "The example program is not a valid sequence of moves in a shogi game (whether the pieces start in the normal starting position for the game or otherwise). Both players have a..."
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17:28:59 <b_jonas> So I ordered a new mobile phone. But when choosing it, I found that Nokia is no longer making mobile phones like they used to, so
17:30:16 <b_jonas> even though my approx. seven years old Nokia mobile phone has non-flat keypad, flash for the camera, and a camera resolution greater than 640x480, I absolutely can't buy a new Nokia mobile phone satisfying those three criteria at the same time.
17:32:35 <b_jonas> The Nokia 216 has non-flat keypad, camera flash, but (two) 640x480 pixel cameras.
17:33:29 <david3x3x3> yeah, cell phone form factors lack a lot of variety recently
17:33:43 <david3x3x3> it's almost impossible to find a good qwerty phone these days
17:33:52 <b_jonas> The Nokia 230 has large resolution main camera and camera flash, but a flat keypad.
17:34:56 <b_jonas> Nokia 130 apparently doesn't have a camera, or at least they're hiding it well.
17:37:20 <b_jonas> The Nokia 3310 has non-flat keypad, high-res camera, camera flash, ... wait, why didn't I buy that one?
17:37:48 <b_jonas> I guess it just looks bad in genera
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18:54:31 <Roger9> "A function that returns the current continuation. When this continuation is invoked, an array of the arguments passed will be substituted and returned by the function instead." Is there a function like this already (well, has someone thought of it yet)? I can seem to remember reading about it, but IDK.
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19:00:13 <zzo38> There is "law of excluded middle" continuation; is it similar to what you intended?
19:06:05 <Roger9> I'm going to check, but yes, that is what I remember reading about.
19:08:10 <b_jonas> Roger9: um, I don't understand your question. is that just an ordinar call-cc with a trivial wrapper around it, like (lambda (f) (let-values ((a (call/cc f))) a))) in scheme?
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19:10:21 <b_jonas> Roger9: um, try to give an example to clarify your definition then?
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19:10:57 <b_jonas> also no, the above code doesn't wrok
19:11:21 <b_jonas> how the heck did call/cc work in scheme, let me try to understand this
19:14:07 <b_jonas> (lambda (f) (call/cc (lambda (e) (f (lambda a (apply e a)))))) might be cleaner
19:14:47 <b_jonas> (lambda (f) (call/cc (lambda (e) (f (lambda a (e a)))))) might be cleaner, ignore the previous one
19:16:43 <zzo38> I have this Haskell code I wrote from before: lemCC = callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left)); The other way around define also is possible: callCC x = lemCC >>= either return x;
19:16:56 <Roger9> http://paste.ubuntu.com/25962691/
19:17:31 <zzo38> (I don't know what would be the corresponding way in Scheme)
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19:22:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: the way I interpreted the question involves a vararg function, so it probably doesn't relate to that Haskell thing you typed above
19:22:42 <b_jonas> but I don't understand what that Haskell thing you typed does
19:27:30 <zzo38> :t callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left))
19:27:32 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => m (Either a (a -> m c))
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19:32:07 <zzo38> It is a law of excluded middle continuation.
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23:42:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:adopted//"Oh lord, we've adopted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298 \ fugal//Fugals are fictitious flower parts. \ lachine//Lachine is an unholy portal to China, closely guarded from Ëvil by Roujo. \ fish//Come and dance and love the fis
23:42:53 <HackEgo> 2/2:h! Mister Disco summoned it. \ space//Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
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