←2017-11-14 2017-11-15 2017-11-16→ ↑2017 ↑all
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09:00:36 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6IhK6x_gDo
09:00:39 <\oren\> crazy how he can interleave two weapons like that
09:00:50 <\oren\> duel weilding
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12:08:25 <b_jonas> Question. Is there a practical cheap source of something coke bottles, in that it's a liquid container with volume around 0.5 liter or 1 liter that closes airtight even after mechanical stress, but that are different enough from coke bottles that I can put poisonous liquids in them and be sure it won't be mistaken for a drinkable liquid?
12:10:30 <b_jonas> Alternately, a practical and cheap way to mark coke bottles somehow for such a purpose, such that the marking is durable to mechanical stress and washing with water and soap and alcohol and rubbing (but not necessarily to washing with petrol or other solvents)?
12:17:22 <b_jonas> The existance of such a thing might be a logical impossibility, because such a container would automatically be a practical way for storing drinks, and so would actually be used for storing drinks, and so can be confused with drinks.
12:17:30 <garit> b_jonas: i think you are required to add smelly/bitter components to poisons to avoid accidental consumption
12:18:29 <b_jonas> garit: yes, that's a possible solution too, but in that case, is there some practical and cheap bitter component that I can add at home?
12:18:36 <garit> b_jonas: and there are thousands of bottle types, just check what productions you have local (i do have some bottles like milk bottles production nearby)
12:19:56 <garit> b_jonas: naoh even in low concentration is very unpleasant to taste, but check what is added usually
12:20:31 <Taneb> b_jonas: why do you have so much poison and what are you doing with it
12:20:37 <b_jonas> garit: there are lots of bottle types, but many aren't sold empty (I am actually buying cheap bottled water to get PET bottles for example) and ones that are sold with soap or milk are practically impossible to clean the original contents off them.
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12:21:13 <Taneb> b_jonas: you might be able to find the bottle manufacturer
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12:21:29 <garit> b_jonas: check manufacturers who do sell them empty for business, order a pallet of bottles, might be cheaper even if you wont use every bottle
12:21:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: household cleaning agents, which I want to package to a more durable or smaller container for traveling
12:22:22 <garit> cleaning agents i did see are nasty in smell already
12:23:14 <b_jonas> garit: natrium hydroxide? seriously? I mean, that one is more scary than almost all the things I have at my house already. I don't know what it's like in small quantity though.
12:23:22 <b_jonas> Do they seriously use natrium hydroxide for this?
12:25:11 <garit> b_jonas: as liquid cleaning agents? I guess not
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12:25:45 <garit> but at least it definitely makes ingestion almost impossible, hehe =)
12:26:03 <b_jonas> garit: some cleaning agents are nasty in smell, but some aren't. examples are (a) dishwasher rinse aid, which doesn't have a specific smell, and also is as viscous as water, (b) isopropanol, which seems to be cheaper to buy in laboratory clean version than as a mixture cleaning product.
12:26:19 <b_jonas> I don't know what dishwasher rinse aid tastes like, it might already be bitter.
12:26:29 <b_jonas> And I'm also not sure it's poisonous
12:26:40 <b_jonas> but I still don't want to get it mixed with a drink
12:26:53 <garit> I did taste the isopropanol and it was the worst thing ever. But i guess it already had some stuff added in it for a bad taste
12:27:15 <b_jonas> garit: yes, there are denatured versions with bitter additives, but the pure one doesn't taste too bad
12:27:24 <b_jonas> at least I think it doesn't, I'm not willing to try
12:28:20 <b_jonas> Heck, even if the thing isn't poisonous, I'd like a nice durable way to label bottles to distinguish between different similar liquids.
12:28:53 <b_jonas> I use sticky paper for that, but for some things like soap bottles I use in a shower that doesn't work, the label peels off quickly
12:28:58 <garit> stuff that is used in pepper spray can be bought as a powder, and if person isnt mexican or indian, he wont be able to tolerant this
12:29:31 <garit> but proper stuff thst is used works in very small concentration, so is cheaper (because you need just a droplet)
12:29:40 <b_jonas> I can use permanent marker on bottles, but for isopropanol in particular that won't work, because isopropanol solves the permanent marker ink, and even without that it sometimes smudges on some bottle surfaces.
12:30:37 <b_jonas> Pepper spray powder? Does that leave a residue? Some of the bitter additives for alcohol-based cleaners live a solid residue, which is very annoying and sometimes defeats the whole purpose of using an alcohol-based cleaner.
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12:31:27 <b_jonas> Plus, I think pepper spray powder might irritate the skin more than an alcohol-based disinfectant.
12:32:02 <garit> you can dilute it more
12:32:30 <garit> it irritates the skin only in defence-grade concentration (10% mass)
12:33:34 <garit> about 1% by mass is what some of the peppers are, but most people cant tolerate that. And 0.1% by mass is what some cultures may tolerate, so probably too few
12:34:27 <b_jonas> garit: hmm... still doesn't seem like a good idea if I want to use the isopropanol as a disinfectant, but can work if I only use it for whiteboard cleaning. would it leave a residue on the whiteboard?
12:35:02 <b_jonas> Or a residue on the cleaning rag, if I use reusable textile for that?
12:35:42 <garit> yes, 1% is quite a lot of residuals
12:36:04 <garit> and its a sugar-like component, so it might be sticky
12:37:25 <garit> If you want residual-free then you either need very low concentration (professional stuff), or quickly evaporating stuff (like acetone) - but acetone-like stuff will leave the mixture with time and it wont be so unpleasant to taste
12:37:54 <b_jonas> Actually this has turned to a specific other sub-question that I could ask on a forum: what cheap practical additive I could put in isopropanol (between 50% to 90%) that makes it have a bad taste but I can still use it as skin disinfectant, cleaning glasses, help drying bottles after washing, or cleaning whiteboard.
12:38:22 <b_jonas> It mustn't leave a residue after evaporating, and mustn't irritate the skin or even open wounds more than the isopropanol itself does.
12:38:41 <garit> Cleaning glasses would need no residuals at all, even 0.1% or so will be noticed i think
12:39:01 <b_jonas> Acetone... hmm, that might work, because it's definitely cheap and evaporates well. Is that bad tasting?
12:39:18 <b_jonas> oh. "wont be so unpleasant to taste".
12:39:26 <garit> Its not that bad in taste but it is so dense in smell that its hard to breath
12:39:36 <b_jonas> garit: exactly, and helping bottles dry also requires no residude.
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12:39:56 <garit> and people tend not to drink stuff that is so unpleasant to breathe
12:40:15 <b_jonas> if by "leaving the mixture in time" only means it evaporates quickly, that's fine for isopropanol, because that also evaporates quickly
12:40:44 <garit> Ah, i remembered now, for methanol government used kerosene and gasoline
12:41:05 <b_jonas> "and people tend not to drink stuff that is so unpleasant to breathe" => I dunno. I keep hearing of accidents about people drinking liquors (esp. pálinka) from a mineral water bottle accidentally, when they consume a large amount before realizing it's not water.
12:41:07 <garit> kerosene is a bit slow to evaporate. But gasoline is a bit faster
12:41:30 <b_jonas> gasoline doesn't have a bad smell or bad taste in small amounts I think
12:41:40 <garit> but you can add more
12:41:55 <garit> its very bitter and has distinguishable smell
12:42:05 <garit> at least in ~10% concentration
12:42:20 <garit> and leaves no residuals, evaporates a bit faster than isopropanol
12:42:29 <garit> and is about as irritating as isopropanol
12:42:31 <b_jonas> hmm... interesting. although then it might solve things I don't want to solve when used for cleaning, although for the specific examples I gave that's not a problem
12:43:31 <garit> You can simply buy denaturated methanol and add some % of it, hoping that concentration of denaturat is enough
12:44:39 <garit> substances like aromatic oils, especially cheap ones are often disgusting , btw =) can biy those too. But their smell is way too strong
12:44:49 <b_jonas> Wait, that reminds me, what's the price and composition of these denatured alcohol mixtures sold as coolant for cars?
12:44:57 <b_jonas> Could that be usable as a cleaning agent as is?
12:45:07 <b_jonas> Or does that have methanol?
12:45:33 <garit> I think its ethylene glycole + proper denaturat
12:46:02 <garit> ethylene glycole by itself is similar to isopropyl , but isn't as good
12:46:42 <b_jonas> hmm. is it watered up much?
12:46:43 <garit> Price is about the same as gasoline, may be even cheaper
12:46:49 <garit> about half water
12:47:06 <b_jonas> Might work if I mix it with the isopropanol.
12:47:30 <b_jonas> I'll have to look this up.
12:47:41 <garit> not by the ethylene glycol though. You will be just using that small fraction of proper densturat
12:48:04 <garit> in this case you can just buy proper denaturat. Will be cheaper
12:48:34 <b_jonas> Yes, but I can mix a large enough amount in the isopropanol, like 25% of car coolant with 75% isopropanol.
12:48:44 <b_jonas> Where do I buy the denaturant?
12:49:04 <b_jonas> I could ask in the chemical agent store or the pharmacy or something.
12:49:06 <garit> Ebay? they sell almost everything
12:49:33 <b_jonas> They sell almost everything but won't ship fire hazard liquids, which some of these are.
12:49:55 <b_jonas> They certainly shouldn't ship isopropanol or gasolene in mail.
12:50:11 <b_jonas> That's why this sort of stuff is hard to get in first place.
12:50:28 <b_jonas> I can't just order cheap denatured isopropanol from China.
12:52:19 <garit> Pyridine is used in densturated alcohol
12:54:12 <b_jonas> Pyridine?
12:55:53 <garit> And aniline
12:56:31 <garit> Both of them smell fishy, which might be a bad idea for cleaning agent
12:57:20 <b_jonas> Also, for labeling bottles, I wonder about these sticky strips that are printed with a handhelp heat printer they sell for cheap but with expensive tapes, like Dymo. I hear they stick well. I wonder if they'd still well enough to a coke bottle.
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12:58:09 <b_jonas> garit: I think the point is that the alcohol or bleach based cleaning agent can smell bad, if that smell evaporates about as quickly as the alcohol or bleach itself.
12:58:22 <garit> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterant - 5 more things (not as smelly, but bitter)
12:58:47 <b_jonas> Because you will leave the cleaning agent to just evaporate in those cases, and while it's not evaporated, the smell should be there as a warning.
12:59:25 <b_jonas> Sort of like for the bad smelling agent for city methane gas.
13:00:03 <b_jonas> So a bad smell is a good idea for these even if you don't try to drink them.
13:01:05 <garit> all of the above dont evaporate (leave residuals)
13:01:20 <b_jonas> garit: the above what? the bitterants?
13:01:28 <b_jonas> the pyridine and aniline?
13:01:42 <garit> No,those two do evaporate. The 5 of bitter agents
13:02:23 <b_jonas> ok
13:02:41 <b_jonas> I guess for a car coolant liquid that is not a problem
13:03:00 <garit> But they are bitter in 0.08ppm. Layer will be invisible even on glasses
13:04:31 <garit> layer is invisible if its thinner than 100nm or so. For 1ppm this allow to evaporate 100mm of liquid (usual evaporation thickness is 100um or so). so up to 100ppm is safe (can't be seen even on glasses)
13:05:30 <garit> it is still can change the feel when you touch it and increase the speed of dust accumulation, but people wont notice it
13:06:21 <b_jonas> Wait, that's an idea. I could use bleach bottles! They're already used for poisonous stuff, and the bleach is easier to clean from them than soap or oily stuff from their bottles, I already buy bottles of bleach for cleaning, and some of them are durable enough.
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13:07:15 <garit> If you need more than 100 bottles - call people who actually do the bleach bottles and buy a pallet of them =)
13:07:35 <b_jonas> Lighter fluid bottles might be even better, but I don't generally buy lighter fluid so I'd have to buy them normally.
13:07:45 <b_jonas> s/normally/specfically/
13:08:30 <b_jonas> It's not a perfect solution, but marking a bleach bottle might be better than marking a coke bottle.
13:08:56 <b_jonas> I wonder if anywhere's selling cheap bleach in half-liter bottles instead of one liter bottles.
13:09:13 <b_jonas> But even a one litter bottle is fine.
13:09:48 <b_jonas> And there's these ugly gray square-shaped bleach bottles that nobody will confuse with drink bottles.
13:10:08 <b_jonas> I still have to mark them so people don't confuse them with bleach, but it's better.
13:10:13 <garit> Kids are stupid enough to drink it anyways
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13:11:18 <b_jonas> Yes, but kids will also try to eat the dishwasher tablets and stuff like that. It's a much harder problem to kid-proof things.
13:11:31 <b_jonas> My apartment is not small-kid-proof.
13:11:51 <garit> Thats why detergents are added =) to make it kid proof
13:13:11 <b_jonas> And note that some bleach bottles have these safety caps, the ones that are supposedly kid-proof, although I don't think they really prove difficulty for a kid, that open if you press down or press on the side or something.
13:13:27 <b_jonas> Not all bleach bottles have these though.
13:13:37 <garit> Its hard to open those though
13:13:41 <b_jonas> (My vitamin bottles have such caps too.)
13:13:46 <garit> i mean physically, kids might not be strong enough
13:14:03 <garit> or smart enough to figure out where to press
13:14:23 <garit> so the strongest and smartest kids only will die ^=^
13:14:24 <b_jonas> garit: I can do that with a coke bottle too. If I screw the cap hard enough, then my mother can't open it.
13:14:44 <b_jonas> But doing that could make the bottle less durable, so I try not to.
13:15:59 <b_jonas> (It makes sense for the vitamin bottle, it's not easy to overdose those vitamins, but a kid eating the whole bottle of 100 pills would be a bad idea.)
13:18:08 <b_jonas> Also, note to self, re-ask these questions when ais523 arrives.
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17:11:21 <b_jonas> Hmm, in fact I could use bottles of rinse aid. That's probably easy enough to clean, and they come in small bottles.
17:11:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I wanted to ask you something, but I have to afk now for like three hours, so I can't.
17:12:04 <ais523> OK, ask me later then
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20:03:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53364&oldid=46742 * Zseri * (-148) improve c code
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20:44:57 <wob_jonas> Ok, so I think the best solution so far for isopropanol is this. Rinse with water then dry an empty bottle of dishwasher rinse aid. Mark it as "FIRE HAZARD POISON" with colored nail polish, as well as put a more detailed (but easier to peel) sticky paper label written with pen, and possibly also a strip of colored PVC insulation tape around the bot
20:44:57 <wob_jonas> tle.
20:45:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: you're still here? good. here's my question
20:45:25 <ais523> not "still", I just rejoined
20:46:13 <ais523> but yes, ask your question
20:46:58 <wob_jonas> I want to take say 0.2 liters of isopropanol to my office for cleaning whiteboards. What is the right container for this? It should be watertight, should clearly not look as something that can be drunk safely, these properties should be durable to mechanical stress and cleaning the exterior with soap water and rubbing with a sponge,
20:47:22 <ais523> I'm not an expert on isopropanol
20:47:22 <wob_jonas> and should also be durable to the isopropanol itself (which is why writing with a sharpie isn't an option).
20:47:31 <ais523> you'd be better off asking someone who knows about it
20:47:56 <wob_jonas> Like a pharmacist? I should probably do that.
20:48:28 <ais523> however, the easier solution might be to buy a dedicated whiteboard cleaner spray; although the ones I'm aware of tend to damage whiteboards in such a way that you can't remove ink from them without the spray, presumably to persuade you to buy more spray
20:48:53 <wob_jonas> eww
20:49:39 <ais523> why is it so hard to clean your whiteboards, anyway? with a good whiteboard and whiteboard pen, pressure is enough, and in extreme cases water
20:49:41 <wob_jonas> Actually the easier solution would be to buy denatured alcohol, which is much less poisonous, and so can be put to an ordinary coke bottle.
20:49:57 <ais523> I wouldn't recommend cleaning the whiteboard with poison
20:50:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's easy to clean if you clean it immediately, but hard to clean if you leave the marks on for weeks, and in any case, cleaning leaves a lot of residue that becomes ugly after a while.
20:51:09 <wob_jonas> Why is cleaning it with poison a bad idea?
20:51:22 <ais523> because it puts poison on a surface that people might plausibly touch by mistake
20:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> it'll presumably evaporate readily
20:51:33 <int-e> hah. http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/3SkullsAprill.jpg
20:51:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: then you have poison in the air
20:52:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, so you should make sure it's well ventilated
20:52:15 <wob_jonas> Touching is safe. Isopropanol is like bleach, it evaporates quickly and is safe after that. I clean my floor with bleach, and if you open the windows and wait for an hour that's also safe.
20:52:24 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
20:52:35 <wob_jonas> PH: yes, open the window to let the fumes leave.
20:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> 'poison on surfaces is bad' just sounds like... ais logic
20:52:56 <int-e> http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/polishing-accessories/polish-inspection-sprays/isopropanol-alcohol-ipa-500ml/prod_818.html <-- serious version
20:52:58 <ais523> I'd say that you would at least need the container to carry the standardised warning symbols for poisonous chemicals
20:53:27 <int-e> (out of stock, but those orange warning labels look serious)
20:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> wob how did you even get the isopropanol
20:53:34 <Phantom_Hoover> what did it come in
20:53:56 <wob_jonas> PH: In a one little sized bottle. I don't want to take all of it to the office.
20:54:01 <wob_jonas> s/one little/one liter/
20:54:03 <wob_jonas> and I bought it
20:56:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: the standardized warning symbol is a good idea. that's a red diamond frame with some incomprehensible black drawing inside it.
20:57:17 <ais523> I just feel really uncomfortable discussing this sort of subject at all
20:57:23 <ais523> although, hmm
20:57:26 <ais523> give me a moment
21:00:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: should I ask about repainting the wooden window frames with the kind of paint that requires these much more poisonous aromatic solvents first, to make this sound safer in comparison?
21:01:10 <ais523> b_jonas: I happen to know a chemistry teacher, I was asking her for advice on the subject
21:01:26 <ais523> (that's why I went AFK)
21:01:48 <wob_jonas> aren't you a chemistry geek yourself?
21:02:11 <ais523> she says that she hasn't seen anyone try to use isopropanol outside the lab (and wouldn't use it in experiments), but uses acetone plus an air drier for cleaning chemicals off lab equipment, and very occasionally on whiteboards too
21:02:14 <ais523> and it has similar properties
21:02:38 <ais523> she says you mustn't let anyone drink or inhale the isopropanol
21:03:07 <ais523> presumably you have to store it somewhere that only you have access to in order to avoid it being used inappropriately by other people
21:03:15 <ais523> I'm still pretty concerned about the whole subject though
21:06:34 <wob_jonas> mustn't let anyone drink or inhale => yes, it's poisonuos
21:06:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53365&oldid=53361 * Rottytooth * (+586) suggestions about funding
21:07:18 <wob_jonas> isn't acetone worse? I can buy acetone if it works on whiteboards, but I thought it was worse, because it's similarly a fire hazard even in vapor form, it's poisonous to ingest, and solves more things than isopropanol
21:07:21 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol#Toxicology ... I can imagine worse poisons. Also "Rubbing alcohol, hand sanitizer, and disinfecting pads typically contain a 60–70% solution of isopropyl alcohol in water." (dilution affects toxicity but will happen anyway *if* you ingest the stuff.)
21:07:31 <int-e> acetone is what you get if you ingest it
21:08:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: isopropanol metabolises to acetone, so they're similarly poisonous
21:09:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but I thought acetone was a more powerful solvent for household stuff, I could be wrong in that
21:10:21 <ais523> right, the reason she uses acetone is I think precisely because its a powerful solvent, she's trying to clean substantially more dangerous chemicals off glass
21:10:28 <ais523> and most of them disolve in either water or acetone
21:10:31 <wob_jonas> denatured ethanol might be better, because it's less poisonous, but has similar properties as a solvent, as in works for whiteboard cleaning, and is similar fire hazard
21:10:51 <ais523> I've used ethanol to clean permanent marker off glass myself
21:11:13 <ais523> so I guess it's in the category of chemicals I'm not afraid of
21:11:36 <wob_jonas> yes, ethanol works for that, it even lets you clean permanent marker from more rough surfaces by rubbing (it's easier to clean from glass)
21:15:04 <ais523> anyway, I'm really not an expert at this sort of thing; I think I have an A-level in chemistry but didn't score amazingly well at it
21:15:20 <wob_jonas> Ok, thanks for the help anyway.
21:16:16 <wob_jonas> I'll try to look up where I can get cheap and already denatured hand disinfectants based on alcohol or isopropanol, but so far I've found they're generally sold pretty expensive in most places.
21:16:39 <wob_jonas> Those would work as whiteboard cleaner and similar too.
21:17:08 <wob_jonas> But even then I want to figure out this bottle thing.
21:19:09 <ais523> I think storing it in a locked cabinet where only you have the key, + written warnings, + the standardised warning pictographs
21:20:17 <wob_jonas> a locked cabinet might just about be possible, but a locked cabinet for which only I have the key sounds unrealistic for the office (this isn't at home)
21:20:39 <wob_jonas> written warnings are definitely what I want, but I'm asking how I can make them durable on the bottle
21:21:10 <ais523> hmm, in my office everyone has a cabinet to which only they have the key
21:21:19 <ais523> how could you possibly keep private records and the like without that?
21:21:41 <wob_jonas> In theory I could take in a small metal casette for which only I have the key or something, but that's a bit expensive.
21:22:42 <ais523> also a bottle whose entire purpose is to contain a chemical that cleans ink off surfaces is unlikely to be able to write warnings on
21:22:50 <ais523> as they'd have too much of a chance of being rubbed off by the same chemical
21:23:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, really? Isn't only one person having the key usually impractical? Most keys have copies at different people because anyone might lose keys by accident or pickpocketing or robbing?
21:23:25 <wob_jonas> Even then, most workers at our office don't have separate lockers for which only few people have a key.
21:23:33 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, there are master keys I think
21:23:37 <ais523> but they'd be unlikely to be used
21:23:48 <ais523> I mean, you're the only person who has a key intended for genreal use
21:24:03 <wob_jonas> We have expensive equipment in lockers for which only few people have the key, plus we have the system administrators' room for which I think only the three sysadmins have the key, or perhaps one more person.
21:24:18 <wob_jonas> Also the server room for which similarly only the sysadmins have the kye.
21:24:46 <wob_jonas> I definitely don't have such a lockable closet at work, and most other co-workers don't have one either.
21:25:13 <ais523> I use mine for storing my laptop in sometimes when I go out to eat, that sort of thing
21:25:20 <ais523> (I don't store poisonous chemicals in mine)
21:25:47 <wob_jonas> I have my own desk and unlocked boxes labeled with my names where other people are unlikely to touch my belongings, and there's some personal things like my home keys that I always keep on my person at work.
21:26:44 <ais523> oh, we have something of a theft problem in our department
21:27:17 <wob_jonas> Sure, we have things stolen too, but it's mostly valuable things. My less valuable personal belongings are less likely to be stolen, and even if they are, they're cheap to replace.
21:27:36 <wob_jonas> So I wouldn't leave valuable equipment out in the open.
21:27:39 <ais523> at one point someone set off the fire alarm then started stealing things while people were evacuated, but they got caught fairly quickly because they had to use a swipe card to get through some of the doors
21:28:46 <wob_jonas> That's scary. Is that a crime even if not actually stealing anything, only intending to steal? In any case, it's a pretty bad idea.
21:29:21 <wob_jonas> I don't think anybody does that here. They just walk in open doors when nobody pays attention and remove things acting as if they have authority in case anyone watches.
21:29:23 <ais523> I don't think it's technically illegal? it's a firable offence though
21:29:55 <wob_jonas> I'm not a lawyer.
21:30:17 <ais523> interestingly, in the UK I think (not sure, not a lawyer) it's legal to take something you don't own as long as the owner doesn't need it at the time and you give it back undamaged; at least, I know it isn't theft, it might violate some other law though
21:31:11 <wob_jonas> That's definitely not the case here. We've had things disappear, not just used for a bit and returned.
21:31:23 <wob_jonas> Some of it might be accidental loss, but we believe some of it is deliberate theft.
21:31:48 <wob_jonas> I don't want to give any ideas, but the security is really terrible here, so it's easy to steal stuff.
21:32:48 <wob_jonas> Except for the stuff that is stored in the rooms that only few people have keys for and aren't left open. We have a large storage room for valuables like that, plus the server room and sysadmin's room which are even safer.
21:39:57 <wob_jonas> Meanwhile, M:tG is previewing the third un-set.
21:42:17 <ais523> yes
21:42:59 <wob_jonas> It's a pity they're releasing it just a year after the second Conspiracy set, because some of the conspiracy cards in that feel like un-cards.
21:42:59 <ais523> incidentally, it's added a new card for the "allow people to deduce the game rules purely by reading cards" deck
21:43:02 <ais523> Un sets are good for that
21:43:21 <ais523> e.g. the card that reverses the order of phases lists them all in its reminder text
21:44:23 <wob_jonas> Ah, you mean a deck that lets a future person reconstruct the rules if they don't have access to the comp rules or similar, but only to a deck of cards preserved in a durable photo or something.
21:45:01 <wob_jonas> I thought at first of a deck based on R&D's Secret Lair
21:46:22 <wob_jonas> As for cards for the deck you mean, I've been asking for a Sea's Claim with reminder text.
21:46:40 <wob_jonas> Although I must admit that I like the mountaintop boatmaker.
21:47:00 <ais523> `card-by-name Decimation Clock
21:47:02 <HackEgo> No output.
21:47:02 <wob_jonas> So maybe a Spreading Seas with reminder text instead.
21:47:08 <ais523> `card_by_name Decimation Clock
21:47:09 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: card_by_name: not found
21:47:15 <ais523> hmm, what's it called
21:47:27 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name spreading seas
21:47:28 <HackEgo> Spreading Seas \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Spreading Seas enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land is an Island. \ ZEN-C
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21:49:11 <int-e> cute.
21:49:35 <ais523> `card-by-name Decimator Web
21:49:36 <HackEgo> Decimator Web \ 4 \ Artifact \ {4}, {T}: Target opponent loses 2 life, gets a poison counter, then puts the top six cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. \ MBS-R
21:49:41 <ais523> there we go, that's the core of the deck
21:50:19 <wob_jonas> ah, nice!
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> tells about the sixty cards
21:50:36 <ais523> and 10 poison, and 20 life
21:50:37 <int-e> decimator
21:51:08 <ais523> `card-by-name lich's mirror
21:51:08 <wob_jonas> yeah, but the 10 poison is easy, it's mentioned in a lot of reminder text, and the 20 life can be guessed from some other cards
21:51:09 <HackEgo> Lich's Mirror \ 5 \ Artifact \ If you would lose the game, instead shuffle your hand, your graveyard, and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20. \ ALA-M
21:51:14 <ais523> then that gives you the 7 cards
21:51:29 <ais523> (once you've established that life totals start at 20 it's clear that it's restarting the game)
21:51:53 <ais523> wow that card has a lot of rulings
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21:59:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: for the 20 starting life, Rebirth might be the best. 7 cards is trickier, Contract from Below (together with Rebirth) or Backup Plan could help, or if you have thousands of cards, you might notice that several refer to drawing seven cards, but none refer to six or more than seven.
21:59:48 <ais523> Enter the Infinite normally draws more than seven :-P
22:00:17 <wob_jonas> Yes.
22:00:21 <ais523> maximum hand size is a hard rule to convey; you can use something like Spellbook to imply that there is a maximum, but not what it is
22:01:40 <wob_jonas> And there are some cards like "Once with Feeling" that are specifically confusing if you're reconstructing rules this way.
22:01:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: for establishing that there is a maximum, Day's Undoing might be the best
22:02:09 <wob_jonas> or Glorious End, that's even cleaner
22:02:30 <ais523> `card-by-name glorious end
22:02:31 <HackEgo> Glorious End \ 2R \ Instant \ End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.) \ At the beginning of your next end step, you lose the game. \ AKH-M
22:02:41 <ais523> yes, that's very clean
22:02:50 <ais523> also explains the cleanup step
22:02:50 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Time Stop
22:02:51 <HackEgo> Time Stop \ 4UU \ Instant \ End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.) \ CHK-R, 10E-R
22:02:51 <wob_jonas> even better
22:03:08 <wob_jonas> But some rules, like the combat rules, are really hard to explain on cards.
22:03:24 <wob_jonas> And good luck trying to explain banding. There's reminder text for it, but it's never printed, and probably never will be,.
22:03:34 <ais523> `card-by-name benalish hero
22:03:35 <HackEgo> Benalish Hero \ W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/1 \ Banding (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being blocked by a creature, you divide that creature's combat damage, not its controller, among any of the creatures it's bei
22:03:47 <ais523> haha, it doesn't even fit on one line of IRC
22:04:12 <ais523> (I know how banding works but agree that it's complex; it was less complex back in the damage-on-the-stack days, which oddly postdate banding disappearing)
22:04:20 <wob_jonas> Even without banding, the rules of combat are hard to guess.
22:04:39 <int-e> hmm, Glorious End should also have many rulings
22:04:40 <wob_jonas> But seriously, there are a lot of cards that do something like discard all cards and draw seven cards.
22:04:46 <ais523> `card-by-name master warcraft
22:04:47 <HackEgo> Master Warcraft \ 2(r/w)(r/w) \ Instant \ Cast Master Warcraft only before attackers are declared. \ You choose which creatures attack this turn. \ You choose which creatures block this turn and how those creatures block. \ RAV-R, CMD-R, CMA-R
22:04:49 <wob_jonas> That probably lets you figure out that the starting hand size is around seven.
22:04:57 <int-e> only 5, disappointing.
22:04:57 <ais523> that's the best one I know
22:05:01 <ais523> for explaining combat rules
22:05:03 <ais523> but it's not complete
22:05:20 <wob_jonas> It might not let you figure out that every player draws every turn except for the first player in two-player games (we house-rule that because it's stupid).
22:05:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's an attempt to reduce the first player advantage, it's not enough though
22:05:48 <ais523> first player nearly always has the advantage except in some veryr weird matchups
22:06:03 <ais523> (some control mirrors have a second player advantage, as do most matches involving Manaless Dredge)
22:06:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, that's fine. the bad part is that in multiplayer games, the first player also draws. we believe that's a bad rule and so in our 2 vs 2 multiplayer games, the first player doesn't draw, and the players of a team sit opposite of each other.
22:07:11 <ais523> oh, right, multiplayer
22:07:29 <ais523> M:tG would possibly benefit from Hearthstone's attempt to nullify the first player advantage
22:07:44 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Time Reversal
22:07:45 <HackEgo> Time Reversal \ 3UU \ Sorcery \ Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal. \ M11-M, M12-M
22:08:00 <ais523> (not only does the first player skip their first draw step, the other player starts with an instant that's effectively "{0}: add {1} to your mana pool")
22:08:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, a free gold for the second player
22:08:18 <wob_jonas> wait, an instant, not a permanent? ok
22:08:21 <ais523> err, sorcery, not instant, but hearthstone doesn't have instants
22:08:29 <wob_jonas> I thought it was a permanent you sacrifice
22:08:40 <ais523> nope, cast from hand and goes to graveyard
22:08:45 <wob_jonas> Ok.
22:09:17 <wob_jonas> That might be even better, or worse, depending on the meta.
22:09:49 <ais523> yes
22:09:59 <ais523> it'd be great in storm (and IIRC works in storm-like combos in Hearthstone)
22:10:19 <wob_jonas> What storm? M:tG-like storm?
22:10:20 <int-e> ais523: oh you can use that on any turn you wish?
22:10:46 <ais523> int-e: right
22:10:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
22:10:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: only once per game usually
22:11:06 <ais523> Hearthstone doesn't have an exact equivalent of M:tG storm but it does have things that care about you having played spells already
22:11:08 <ais523> kind-of like Surge, actually
22:11:24 <wob_jonas> I see.
22:11:27 <int-e> wob_jonas: yeah but not restricted to the first turn, which is what I initially thought
22:11:39 <int-e> (and that would be far less useful)
22:12:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: does it have spells that make your opponent discard a card, or spells that let you choose a card from opponent's revealed hand to discard?
22:12:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: probably
22:12:22 <ais523> I'm not an expert
22:12:42 <ais523> but those don't violate any of the rules I'm aware of for what hearthstone cards can do and they're fairly obvious effects
22:12:59 <ais523> although the former would probably be random, due to the way that hearthstone's turn timers work
22:15:03 <wob_jonas> random discard exists in M:tG too, but is less convenient
22:15:43 <ais523> `card-by-name hymn to tourach
22:15:44 <HackEgo> Hymn to Tourach \ BB \ Sorcery \ Target player discards two cards at random. \ FE-C, EMA-U, VMA-U, MED-U, V13-M
22:16:07 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's a good one power-wise
22:16:41 <wob_jonas> heck, discard at random is more common than I thought. probably because it's common on red cards, which I notice less.
22:16:53 <wob_jonas> (I'm searching for it now)
22:17:06 <ais523> wob_jonas: on red cards it mostly affects the user, though, doesn't it?
22:17:15 <wob_jonas> Yes
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