←2017-12-17 2017-12-18 2017-12-19→ ↑2017 ↑all
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00:52:41 <boily> `5 w
00:52:46 <HackEgo> 1/2:rules of wisdom//unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation gblh//Gblh but less helpful. \ laughed//They laughed when I said I wanted to be a comedian. They're not laughing n
00:52:47 <boily> `n
00:52:48 <HackEgo> 2/2:ow! \ nth//nth is not that helpful \ gaspacho//You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
00:56:58 <shachaf> ais523: Huh.
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01:10:23 <ais523> shachaf: for anonymous inner classes, though, they seem to be marked as final or not more or less at random, at least I haven't spotted a pattern
01:10:34 <ais523> it's not purely based on a) whether they capture this, b) whether they captuer other tihngs
01:14:01 <fizzie> Hmm. JLS says: "An anonymous class is never final (§ The fact that an anonymous class is not final is relevant in casting, in particular the narrowing reference conversion allowed for the cast operator (§5.5). It is also of interest in subclassing, in that it is impossible to declare a subclass of an anonymous class, despite an anonymous class being non-final, because an anonymous class cannot
01:14:07 <fizzie> be named by an extends clause (§8.1.4)."
01:14:49 <ais523> fizzie: well, I've certainly come across anonymous classes which a) have the final flag set in their bytecode, and b) give a verifyerror if you try to extend them
01:15:16 <ais523> there seem to be some differences between Java and the JVM here
01:15:45 <fizzie> I guess extending them that way would fall outside the scope of the JLS, not being part of the language.
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01:19:18 <ais523> anyway, this has helped; it explains why Modifier.isFinal() always returns false for anonymous classes
01:19:27 <ais523> the JLS says they're not final, so the reflection API says they're not final
01:19:31 <ais523> even though the bytecode says otherwise
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02:21:46 <elite_g33515> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETvtesfhtx: Vorpal MDude HackEgo erdic lynn sleffy Lord_of_Life shachaf joast zzo38 MrBusiness Lymia ATMunn Melvar sebbu augur Bowserinator Cale FreeFull sprocklem newsham_ fnodeuser grumble Sgeo fungot
02:21:47 <fungot> elite_g33515: i'm not suggesting it should be possible between and?:).
02:21:51 <elite_g33515> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETgoeniznve: heroux jix garit izabera sftp sleffy Soni danieljabailey ski Lord_of_Life doesthiswork sprocklem Bowserinator Vorpal ineiros sparr Melvar lifthrasiir zzo38 brandonson ais523 lynn jaboja Hack
02:21:56 <elite_g33515> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETcrnfagcwi: GeekDude sparr jaboja MrBusiness ski aloril boily Soni MDude sftp staffehn_ Deewiant FreeFull brandonson Sgeo ATMunn Warrigal Cale Melvar erdic \oren\_ zzo38 lifthrasiir fungot con
02:21:56 <fungot> elite_g33515: or just you this: fnord is released! give them their own if their environment isn't working to subvert that.
02:21:57 <augur> oh now its here lol
02:22:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
02:22:02 <elite_g33515> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETjnqnnlxvv: aloril doesthiswork Vorpal contrapumpkin newsham_ Bowserinator sleffy staffehn_ sprocklem joast brandonson fnodeuser ais523 tromp heroux Warrigal \oren\_ LeoLambda deltab Melvar izabera Cale shachaf sebbu grumble Deewiant esowiki
02:22:02 -!- ais523 has kicked elite_g33515 I don't have a better default kick reason, but if you're being kicked, you should know why.
02:22:03 <FreeFull> Yeah
02:22:20 <GeekDude> I like that kick message
02:22:30 <ais523> GeekDude: it works fine as a default kick message
02:22:54 <ais523> if I need to kick someone for a non-obvious reason I'd normally have time to explain why
02:23:30 <doesthiswork> yup that was obvious
02:23:41 <ATMunn> so that's the spambot everybody's talking about
02:24:10 <ais523> I'm going to stay decloaked a bit longer just in case it comes back
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02:26:53 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH what the my eyes! D:
02:27:06 <doesthiswork> you followed the link?
02:27:17 <ais523> don't follow links posted by spambots/trolls, in case that isn't obvious
02:27:33 <boily> I didn't follow the links. the colours. they are dangerous.
02:27:43 <ais523> do you want me to +c the channel? I can do that
02:28:01 <boily> what's a +c?
02:28:18 <ais523> basically removes formatting codes from messages
02:28:20 <ais523> colors, etc.
02:28:26 <ais523> you can still send them but the colors won't be there
02:28:30 <ais523> it's useful when people are abusing colors, as seen above
02:28:38 <doesthiswork> but how will we relcome new members?
02:28:56 <shachaf> This is the third channel that bot has pinged me at.
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02:33:06 <FreeFull> I think there's another flag that stops coloured messages from coming through entirely
02:37:58 <zzo38> I see nothing about stopping such messages from being sent.
02:39:23 <FreeFull> Ok, seems freenode doesn't have that channel mode
02:39:52 <zzo38> There is +C which disallow some messages, but it doesn't do that, and is not very flexible either. Better might be that you can program the exceptions, as well as disallowing specific characters (any character in range 0 to 31 you can disallow if you wish; you can also disable codes 128-255 as a group).
02:40:13 <FreeFull> +C only blocks CTCPs
02:40:18 <FreeFull> Which the spammer isn't using
02:40:26 <zzo38> Yes, and it doesn't even block all CTCPs.
02:40:37 <zzo38> That is why I suggested to reprogram it to be more flexible.
02:40:45 <FreeFull> There are other IRCDs that do have blocking messages if they have colour codes
02:40:48 <zzo38> (Then you can block colours too if you like to do)
02:41:10 <ais523> FreeFull: it is, actually, it sent me a personal CTCP (not a channel CTCP) asking for my client version, no idea why
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02:41:42 <FreeFull> I got an invite to a channel
02:41:56 <ais523> an offensively-named one?
02:41:58 <FreeFull> Yes
02:42:03 <ais523> that happened to me earlier
02:42:12 <ais523> I have my client set to not autoaccept invites but it's a fairly ingenious form of spam
02:42:23 <FreeFull> 01:56:12 [Freenode] -!- annarel129 invites you to #FreeFullisan****r9
02:42:36 <FreeFull> I censored it
02:42:42 <zzo38> I look at HELP UMODE they don't mention blocking invites.
02:42:57 <shachaf> i,i FreeFullistan
02:43:39 <zzo38> (I do not know if +g blocks invites)
02:43:42 <FreeFull> shachaf: That'd be a weird country
02:44:04 <FreeFull> I only got one invite, so not much of an issue
02:44:33 <zzo38> Even if there is no such server setting, you can block them in the client if it becomesa problem I suppose
02:45:52 <zzo38> (At least in program I use, the /F command can be used to block anything that can be matched by a regular expression.)
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02:47:20 <ais523> don't want to stay decloaked too long, and if the bot hasn't come back yet then it's probably no more likely to hit here than anywhere else
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02:50:54 <FreeFull> irssi has regex ignores too
02:51:10 <zzo38> Yes, other programs might have too
02:53:34 <zzo38> (Well, /F can do stuff other than block, too; you can also program it to ring a bell, highlight the message, or log the message in another window; or any combination of these effects (which can also be combined with suppressing the message).)
03:00:08 <sleffy> augur, oh wait you're in here
03:00:16 <sleffy> how'd that happen
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03:09:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: that java anonymous class stuff sounds crazy
03:10:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
03:10:38 <ais523> what we're doing at work is crazy (and somewhat proprietary), we thought that doing that might help
03:10:41 <ais523> although I now think it's unnecessary
03:11:35 <wob_jonas> ruby does let you derive from anonymous classes
03:17:38 <wob_jonas> but then, ruby is a language that in general lets you do anything, even the stupidest abstraction-breaking things
03:18:30 <wob_jonas> you can redefine builtin methods and all that
03:18:36 <wob_jonas> great for esoprogramming
03:24:47 <augur> sleffy: o hay
03:24:54 <augur> sleffy: ive been here since 2007!
03:25:09 <sleffy> I've been here for less than a year!
03:25:12 <sleffy> I think.
03:25:21 <sleffy> blame shachaf
03:28:41 <augur> shachaf does not like me
03:31:56 <augur> its the ol' shachaf-augur animosity rearing it ugly head!
03:32:07 <augur> no one even knows where it started b/c it's been like a decade!
03:32:10 <augur> ~mystery~
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03:44:42 <wob_jonas> I wonder, could you have a blue spirit creature with like "When no opponent controls two or more creatures, sacrifice ~."? Because it's like a ghost that only has power if there's someone who believes in him? Or would that be a white-only ability?
03:44:55 <wob_jonas> Say, is a 2/2 for {U} with that possible?
03:44:59 <wob_jonas> Or is that way too strong?
03:46:17 <zzo38> I don't know any of those question
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04:59:50 <zzo38> One idea of a Magic: the Gathering card: Enchanted object has all names. (It is a bit like Spy Kit, but not only for creatures, and can be used with opponent's cards too, and possibly even spells (if it says "enchant spell or permanent" and has flash), and includes legendary names and names of non-creature cards, too.)
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08:09:48 <zzo38> "When all conventional explanations for a phenomenon are ruled out, are able to accept paranormal ones." I would think that in order to accept paranormal ones, you would have to define paranormal ones properly first. Furthermore, how do you know you have not missed something? It is good to consider all of the possibilities, but, you are going to miss some.
08:10:44 <zzo38> Still, it is good if you do not dismiss it out of hand.
08:11:50 <zzo38> Isn't it?
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08:50:19 <sebbu> zzo38, we never know we didn't missed one
08:51:11 <sebbu> furthermore, even if a conventional explanation works, we never know if it's because we're in a very specific usecase or not
08:52:50 <sebbu> there are quite a few "conventional explanations" we thought to be true all the time / for all cases, only to discover they only applied to certains conditions / referentials
08:53:38 <sebbu> beside, some other explanation might have similar/close result
08:53:48 <sebbu> and we might not be able to see/detect/measure the difference
08:54:09 <zzo38> Yes, you are correct; that is happening a lot, which is why we will need the more scientific experiment in future to figure out better.
08:54:54 <sebbu> sometimes, we even know there is a difference, but it's just smaller than the margin of error of our measure equipment
08:55:06 <zzo38> Unless you can prove mathematically that you can't miss one (which is impossible since neither the exact law of physics nor the exact circumstances in use is perfectly known)
08:55:10 <zzo38> sebbu: Yes, that too.
08:55:27 <sebbu> mathematics can be true
08:55:30 <sebbu> physics can't
08:57:09 <sebbu> i mean, you can find an irrational number as a speed/length, which is physically impossible because it has a precision smaller than the atom size
08:57:39 <sebbu> so physically, Pythatogore's algorithm is false
08:58:00 <sebbu> it's close to reality though
08:59:25 <sebbu> even for mathematics, you probably saw a case when you had 2 points you thought were the same, but later demonstrated they weren't ?
09:00:21 <sebbu> (which isn't a matter of mathematics, but our pereption of the graphical representation - geometry)
09:00:58 <zzo38> Mathematics is difference from physical world. Scientific is not as perfect as mathematics. Even if you try to use these thing in mathematics to figure the physical world but it doesn't work because you are using the incorrect modeling and incorrect measurement and so on.
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09:03:19 <sebbu> or things works in a particular usecase which we thought to be universal
09:03:23 <zzo38> But, yes, the situations are not as simple as the simplified explanations make it that I have quoted above.
09:03:29 <sebbu> ie, einstein relativity law
09:03:39 <zzo38> sebbu: Yes. I think you mentioned those already; you are correct.
09:04:06 <sebbu> only works in general usecase, neither in microscopic/nanoscopic referential, neither in black hole proximity referential
09:04:53 <sebbu> but they were only discovered years later
09:06:42 <zzo38> Yes.
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11:48:04 <boily> `5 w
11:48:09 <HackEgo> 1/2:violation//Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family. \ relrod//A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force. \ imagine//Imagine was the only song not interrupted after two stanzas on the opening ceremony of the 2012 London Olympic Games, a calm moment in an otherwise chaotic rush through fifty pop songs. \
11:48:09 <boily> `n
11:48:10 <HackEgo> 2/2:bike//Bike is from Luxembourg. \ belgium//The plural form of "Belgium" is "Belgia".
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19:35:26 <oerjan> hm crap connection
19:36:35 <Slereah_> Would you prefer an Ehresmann connection
19:36:55 <Slereah_> Oh wait, not ##physics
19:36:56 <Slereah_> nvm
19:45:05 <oerjan> well this channel is always in free fall
19:45:22 <oerjan> but today we got some elite spam, i see
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19:48:27 <fizzie> I would like to lodge a complaint regarding the spam. The initial header was all U+2584 LOWER HALF BLOCK. Alternating between that and U+2580 UPPER HALF BLOCK would have provided a much more higher-fidelity approximation of the header on channels with the +c mode set. (Saw it on ##scheme like that.)
19:51:52 <zzo38> An approximation of what header?
19:54:22 <fizzie> The initial and so on, in the spammer's messages.
19:55:02 <fizzie> I think it should've been ▄▀▄▀▄▀... without colors.
19:55:22 <fizzie> Now it was just ▄▄▄▄▄▄.
20:01:26 <oerjan> is the shtetl-optimized RSS feed broken for anyone else?
20:01:50 <oerjan> i've had to check it manually since he posted that Googatory thing
20:02:11 <oerjan> (and i already tried deleting and resubscribing)
20:02:41 <oerjan> s/it/the blog/
20:05:51 <fizzie> It's worked for me in Feedly, but I'm not exactly sure which feed that's picking up from.
20:06:12 <fizzie> I'll check if that's visible somewhere in the UI when I get home.
20:10:12 <oerjan> gah my connection to nvg is so crappy it's awful to view the feed with less there
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20:16:54 <int-e> oerjan: one addendum to buzzfizz: you can combine a modulo n counter and a modulo m counter into a single modulo (n*m) counter without any coprimality assumption; to test for 0, just test both for 0; to increment, increment the first, then increment the second if the first counter is 0.
20:18:46 <zzo38> I don't like the +c and +C and if I was implementing them, I will do it differently. Instead, it is one mode, that takes a 32-bit number as a parameter. Any bit which is set blocks the corresponding control character. Additionally, bit0 blocks all character codes higher than 127, bit10 blocks code 127, and bit13 may also have another use.
20:19:15 <zzo38> Another thing I would do is to add a new mode to set a write-password. You can join without the password, but if you enter the correct password then you are automatically voiced.
20:20:01 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this please?
20:21:29 <int-e> oerjan: So we can simulate a Minsky-like machine with counters bounded by a fixed power of the input (for simplicity assuming that the whole input is encoded into a single number), which seems to be a good target for LBAs.
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20:25:33 <oerjan> int-e: did you see my discussion with ais523 yesterday? i was assuming passing an extra argument that is k^length of usable tape, although with your method that can be k^length of input instead.
20:27:34 <oerjan> and then you get a bounded turing tape via two counters like that
20:29:18 <oerjan> (i think either method counts as proving LBA-completeness)
20:30:17 <int-e> oerjan: I saw parts of it, my remark was aimed at getting rid of that auxiliary constant.
20:30:23 <oerjan> ok.
20:30:36 <int-e> (I don't mind it terribly but if we can do without, I prefer that)
20:30:41 <oerjan> you still need something in case the input happens to have many initial zeroes.
20:31:04 <oerjan> but you could just pass the sum of them, actually.
20:31:13 <int-e> yeah, some sort of end-of-tape marker cannot be avoided, I guess.
20:31:13 <oerjan> ie. left pad by a 1.
20:32:13 <oerjan> this just needs a proof that if you can do arithmetic mod n then you can do it mod m for m<=n.
20:32:53 <oerjan> where m is k^l in this case.
20:32:56 <int-e> well you can do arithmetic mod m in brainfuck
20:33:02 <int-e> (with bounded cells)
20:33:06 <oerjan> right
20:33:35 * int-e was more interested in the countercall discussion anyway
20:33:40 <oerjan> aha
20:38:52 <int-e> (clampedness is a clever notion)
20:39:21 <int-e> of course we'd like to show that any function is either clamped or total? hmm.
20:43:13 <int-e> Well that doesn't rule out TC-ness by itself.
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21:08:38 <quintopia> there should be a concept like turing-complete that somehow ranks the fitness of a language for each purpose. like "functional-complete" would mean you dont have to bend over backward or accept slowdowns to do functional programming
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21:28:36 <wob_jonas> "we can simulate a Minsky-like machine with counters bounded by a fixed power of the input" => wait really? so you can compile at least all Chomsky-L2 languages?
21:29:06 <wob_jonas> um, what's "LBA-completeness"?
21:29:44 <int-e> `? lba
21:29:45 <HackEgo> lba? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:31:14 <int-e> `le/rn LBA//This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
21:31:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'lba': This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
21:32:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: Yes, LBAs are powerful enough to accept context-sensitive languages.
21:35:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: "Enchanted object has all names" => hmm, have I asked you yet how you'd modify your variant rule about object names since host and augment creatures are available?
21:38:36 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Not as far as I know, but host/augment are Un-cards. I have made up some optional rules for use with non-Un-cards, although it isn't the same as the Unstable host/augment.
21:39:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: eg. to affirm that an augmented Ninja Octopus doesn't have the same name as a two creature type Ninja Octopus token, and that there's no way to shut down an augment Steam-Powered Man with Pithing Needle.
21:39:23 <zzo38> Even if you do not want to do this, there is another simple alternative that works with my variant rules about object names: The name is an ordered pair.
21:41:12 <wob_jonas> linear-bounded automata. ok.
21:41:22 <zzo38> Whether or not you can choose an ordered pair when asked to choose a name should be made consistent with official rules, if any.
21:41:51 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you're rarely asked to choose a name. usually you're asked to choose a card name.
21:42:22 <int-e> . o O ( Search your library for a token named Fred. )
21:43:28 <zzo38> But if you want to play with Un-cards, then you should ignore my variant rules for names anyways, which are not applicable to Un-cards.
21:44:12 <wob_jonas> eg. Pithing Needle and Cranial Extraction make you choose a card name
21:45:11 <wob_jonas> My First Tome might technically let you choose any name, but it doesn't make much sense to choose a name that isn't the name of a card
21:46:08 <wob_jonas> _____ also lets you choose any name, so I think you can make it named either Ninja Octopus the augmented permanent or Ninja Octopus the token
21:47:37 <wob_jonas> What the frack? Unhinged was printed in a language other than English too? And not just one or a few exceptional cards, but many cards?
21:47:44 <wob_jonas> I was sure it was only printed in English.
21:48:56 <wob_jonas> (I think ____ is restricted to wear only card names by a Maro-unruling, but I don't obey those.)
21:48:57 <zzo38> Like I said, I think my variant rules are not for use with Un-cards, which have their own rules for names anyways.
21:49:51 <zzo38> But, of course, you don't have to pay any attention to this; you can make up different rules for Un-cards if everyone is agree, since in many cases no official rule helps anyways.
21:50:16 <wob_jonas> Sure.
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22:03:58 <zzo38> (I have also written rules for last strike before Unstable was announced, and they work a bit differently than the rules for last strike in Unstable. If you are using my custom cards together with Un-cards in a Un-cards game, then you should use the rules from Unstable instead. Otherwise, I think my rules are better.)
22:13:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: hmm. I'm not quite satisfied with either set of rules. Your rules imply that you can have a creature assign damage three times, the same way as it used to be possible to get a creature to assign combat damage twice by removing its first strike.
22:15:00 <zzo38> OK, what do you suggest instead?
22:15:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: although it's not easy, because you need to have a double-striking creature that doesn't have last strike during the normal combat damage step, but has last strike during the last strike step, and there are barely any cards that let you manipulate last strike.
22:15:36 <zzo38> It is possible I made a mistake in my description, and should correct it.
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22:18:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure. I definitely don't know a good set of rules that can support triple strike, which one Unstable card requires.
22:18:31 <wob_jonas> I mean that and last strike.
22:18:39 <zzo38> Actually, the rules I wrote do not allow you to get a creature to assign combat damage twice by removing first strike. I looked at it now and it does not say that.
22:19:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, I know. it's only the very old M:tG rules that allowed that sort of first strike abuse.
22:19:43 <zzo38> My rules say that if a creature assigns damage during the first strike step, it can't assign damage during the normal strike step.
22:20:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but your rules introduce a similar abuse of letting a creature deal combat damage three times by manipulating double strike and last strike. It's just that that's horribly difficult because we don't have the good tools for manipulating last strike, like auras.
22:22:11 <zzo38> Ah, yes, you are right about that.
22:22:30 <zzo38> Now I see what you mean.
22:22:47 <oerjan> int-e: one data point: d : + , f : d - - - , then f is total, not clamped, but not quite always increasing.
22:24:07 <wob_jonas> You'd need to have a Wall of Lust, and cytoshape it to a Boros Swiftblade in the ordinary combat damage step.
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22:24:35 <wob_jonas> no wait
22:24:37 <wob_jonas> backwards
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22:24:54 <wob_jonas> you need a Boros Swiftblade, and cytoshape it to a Wall of Lust in the ordinary combat damage step
22:25:56 <oerjan> <int-e> wob_jonas: Yes, LBAs are powerful enough to accept context-sensitive languages. <-- precisely same class iirc
22:30:15 <moony> 2 and 3 dimensional hardware parts arn't unique. Why not 4 dimensional hardware? :)
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22:30:55 <moony> slhelloffy
22:34:50 <wob_jonas> moony: do you count time as a dimension?
22:35:07 <moony> maybe
22:45:34 <int-e> oerjan: well, precisely the same for decision problems
22:46:41 <int-e> does "LBA" imply that?
22:46:57 * int-e should probably hunt down a formal definition.
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23:12:40 <oerjan> int-e: hm wikipedia says LBAs can be nondeterministic.
23:13:21 <oerjan> and it's not known whether that's more powerful.
23:14:36 <oerjan> doesn't seem to say anything about function problems.
23:17:46 <wob_jonas> oerjan: what? really?
23:17:58 <wob_jonas> I thought it was known they're eqivalent and pretty easy to prove
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23:18:31 <wob_jonas> they're non-deterministic by default, but that doesn't add anything new
23:19:54 <int-e> wob_jonas: the usual proof squares the required space, which works great for NPSPACE = DPSPACE, but not so well with a linear space bound.
23:20:31 <wob_jonas> int-e: hmm.
23:22:49 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitch%27s_theorem (I had forgotten the name)
23:24:12 <int-e> anyway, bed calls
23:30:11 <doesthiswork> what is bed's phone number?
23:30:52 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: doesn't have one. calling from a public payphone.
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