00:02:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
00:09:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
00:15:42 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:15:48 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
00:15:51 <HackEgo> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:16:38 <wob_jonas> why isn't curry's paradox in the food section?
00:17:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:22:18 -!- pelegreno has joined.
00:32:04 <moony> Taneb, someone asked about a invention. Go answer it.
00:38:56 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:38:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:42:37 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
00:50:28 -!- sleffy has joined.
02:05:16 -!- ais523 has joined.
02:08:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:08:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
02:10:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
02:12:26 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
02:22:44 -!- variable has joined.
02:24:08 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
02:27:33 -!- function has changed nick to constant.
02:31:29 -!- garit has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
03:20:05 -!- pelegreno has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:22:05 -!- pelegreno has joined.
03:23:11 -!- sleffy has joined.
03:39:21 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
03:43:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
03:43:22 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined.
03:53:05 <zzo38> Is there a existing program that will strip out pages from a DVI file that match pages from another file? If not, then I can write such program
03:55:34 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb).
03:55:50 -!- sprocklem has joined.
03:55:55 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH).
03:57:36 <constant> zzo38: I know of no such utility.
03:57:51 <zzo38> Have you ever wanted to have such a utility?
03:58:54 <constant> no, but I've wanted to play with dvi files before
03:59:34 <zzo38> I have written a program to render DVI to PBM (for use with programs such as foo2zjs)
04:00:56 <constant> zzo38: depending on the specifics you may have better luck playing with pdf files
04:06:05 -!- garit has joined.
04:18:18 -!- constant has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero).
04:19:20 <zzo38> Maybe there is such a program for PDF, I don't know. If there isn't one for DVI then I should write that program, I think, though.
04:29:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:08:52 -!- Guest6549 has joined.
05:09:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
05:10:16 -!- variable has joined.
05:32:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
05:32:15 -!- Guest6549 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
06:05:53 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
06:40:43 -!- pelegreno has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:47:43 -!- pelegreno has joined.
06:57:41 -!- pelegreno has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:59:37 -!- pelegreno has joined.
07:00:09 -!- pelegreno has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:01:48 -!- pelegreno has joined.
07:09:37 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full).
07:10:07 -!- variable has joined.
07:10:23 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit).
07:10:54 -!- variable has joined.
07:11:11 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit).
07:11:44 -!- augur has joined.
07:11:56 -!- variable has joined.
07:11:58 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit).
07:24:38 -!- pelegreno has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:26:00 -!- pelegreno has joined.
07:28:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:33:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
07:37:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
07:56:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:23:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
08:36:46 -!- trn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:46:59 -!- trn has joined.
09:14:00 -!- garit has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:16:58 -!- trn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:18:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
09:20:18 -!- garit has joined.
09:27:14 -!- trn has joined.
09:30:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
09:42:48 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
09:44:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
09:46:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:47:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
10:14:07 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:17:54 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
10:22:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
10:28:30 -!- Sgeo has joined.
10:28:54 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
10:33:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
10:42:29 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving).
10:46:44 -!- rodgort has joined.
10:47:41 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:48:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
11:10:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think I wanted that. I have used the dviselect dviconcat dvitodvi programs (from the texlive distr) to separate specific pages from a dvi and append them to a new dvi file.
11:10:28 <b_jonas> But for that, I gave the page numbers explicitly.
11:20:38 <esowiki> [[AAEEEEEEEEEI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53635 * Jabutosama * (+5416) created the page
11:21:12 <zzo38> Then that will help with those things, at least. Still, at least the program I described is something I wanted, so if I write such program then at least I might use.
11:23:14 <b_jonas> Also, I think Knuth's cweb description of TeX specify the DVI format, so you might want to read that along with these programs.
11:23:32 <b_jonas> I mean, you'd have to compare pages, and I don't think anyone's implemented that.
11:23:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:24:01 <zzo38> I have implemented programs that read DVI format before, so I do know how it works.
11:25:15 <zzo38> I do have some ideas about how to compare pages.
11:33:29 <zzo38> (But, not quite all of the ideas yet.)
11:35:09 -!- boily has joined.
11:53:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
12:02:48 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:12:57 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:16:34 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:19:25 -!- Melvar has joined.
12:26:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HONED CHICKEN).
12:29:13 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:29:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:50:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
13:14:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
13:20:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:26:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
13:33:16 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
13:56:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
14:01:47 -!- Guest6549 has joined.
14:02:28 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:02:32 -!- LKoen has joined.
14:32:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:34:29 -!- Mayoi has joined.
14:47:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
14:54:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:55:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:07:17 -!- LKoen has joined.
15:18:56 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
15:19:09 -!- Guest6549 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
15:23:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:24:17 -!- tromp has joined.
15:28:31 -!- Guest6549 has joined.
15:30:15 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
15:36:53 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
15:38:37 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:41:52 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
15:47:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:49:01 -!- tromp has joined.
15:50:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
15:52:07 -!- Mayoi has changed nick to erkin.
15:53:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:12:32 -!- hkgit03 has joined.
16:13:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
16:14:55 -!- Guest6549 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:24:34 -!- tromp has joined.
16:25:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:28:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:31:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:34:22 -!- tromp has joined.
16:34:56 -!- variable has joined.
16:46:12 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero).
16:47:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
16:52:15 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:02:14 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
17:02:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:13:59 -!- sleffy has joined.
17:14:09 -!- Guest6549 has joined.
17:15:13 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:23:28 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Changing host).
17:23:28 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
17:31:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
17:48:41 -!- LKoen has joined.
18:10:44 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
18:11:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:12:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:12:15 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:14:32 -!- zseri has joined.
18:34:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:38:31 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:39:07 -!- tromp has joined.
18:42:26 -!- hkgit03 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:51:28 <esowiki> [[TinCan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53636&oldid=21235 * Dehodson * (+48) Add link to Try It Online
18:51:51 <esowiki> [[TinCan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53637&oldid=53636 * Dehodson * (+16) /* External resources */
18:53:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:55:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
18:55:33 -!- Guest6549 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:00:02 -!- PocketSpaghetti has joined.
19:01:02 <int-e> Hmm, I didn't expect QC and GG to ever come this close. "The voice".
19:02:45 -!- Guest6549 has joined.
19:03:57 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:06:26 <int-e> `welcome PocketSpaghetti
19:06:27 <HackEgo> PocketSpaghetti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:08:53 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:13:27 -!- tromp has joined.
19:16:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:17:09 -!- Guest6549 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:29:17 -!- PocketSpaghetti has left.
19:38:30 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:48:24 -!- Remavas has joined.
19:48:25 -!- hkgit03 has joined.
19:50:50 -!- xkapastel has joined.
19:52:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:07:04 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...).
20:15:49 -!- LKoen has joined.
20:21:56 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
20:25:37 -!- tromp has joined.
20:31:17 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:37:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:51:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
20:54:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:54:34 -!- tromp has joined.
20:57:13 * oerjan has bought his traditional nutella balls for christmas
20:59:00 <oerjan> you may have another one if you must
21:00:16 <oerjan> `learn nutella//Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders.
21:00:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'nutella//nutella': nutella//Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders.
21:00:52 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: food//mushrooms//mushrooms, nutella/
21:00:53 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unknown command: `m'
21:01:02 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: food//s/mushrooms//mushrooms, nutella/
21:01:03 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 15: unknown option to `s'
21:01:17 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: food//s/mushrooms/mushrooms, nutella/
21:01:19 <HackEgo> tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
21:01:34 <oerjan> my mind is going, i can feel it.
21:02:04 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
21:02:05 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit).
21:03:11 <oerjan> critically stoned, by the looks of it
21:04:26 <wob_jonas> So, cryptography stuff, I want to understand in theory how to choose what size of hash function. Simplest case: if I compute 2**n hashes (even of inputs an adversary chooses), and want less than 2**-s probability that an attacker can compute a preimage of any of them, and the attacker can compute 2**T hash values on each of 2**P parallel processors
21:04:26 <wob_jonas> , then I need a hash output of at least T+P+n+s bits, right?
21:05:43 <wob_jonas> But if instead, I want to make sure that the attacker can't find a collision in the hash on arbitrary data he supplies, then instead I need at least 2*T+2*P+s bits, right?
21:07:24 <wob_jonas> Now if the attacker has a really good quantum computer that can also compute 2**T hash values on each of 2**P parallel processors, then for a preimage attack, I need a hash output of at least 2*T+P+n+s bits, right?
21:07:46 <int-e> . o O ( find the outlier http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/puzzles.jpg )
21:08:46 <wob_jonas> But the question is, how many bits do I need to avoid a collision against an adversary with a good quantum computer? It must be between 3*T+P+s and 3*T+3*P+s, but what exactly is the factor of the P?
21:09:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: the size 4 snake cube (I guess that's what it is) on the left hand side. that's not a permutation puzzle.
21:09:37 <int-e> yeah it's a snake one
21:09:56 <int-e> and one that I've only solved once, actually... with the help of a computer program
21:10:17 <int-e> so you could say that I haven't solved it :)
21:10:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: that's almost all big cubes by the way, strange. don't you have more copies of smaller sizes?
21:10:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:11:23 <wob_jonas> Ok, maybe not almost all big cubes
21:11:24 <int-e> hmm, I guess I have two more 3x3x3 cubes around, but not on that shelf
21:11:36 <wob_jonas> does have two 3x3x3, and two megaminx
21:12:09 <int-e> And going above 8 is probably not going to be interesting to me.
21:12:14 <wob_jonas> should buy a better 3x3x3 or two, and a 2x2x2 probably
21:12:52 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't even care much about the 5x5x5, but I know that some people like bigger cubes
21:13:11 <int-e> solving centers is kind of fun
21:13:48 <wob_jonas> By the way, my problem with cubes is that there's so little decent written material about it. Apparently everyone only makes useless video tutorials on youtube. I'd like proper written explanations about what people do.
21:13:59 <wob_jonas> Like, descriptions of various methods.
21:14:29 <int-e> it's all intuitive ;-)
21:14:30 <wob_jonas> Fast computers have ruined the cube.
21:19:57 -!- Guest6549 has joined.
21:20:33 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:24:05 -!- sleffy has joined.
21:25:02 -!- tromp has joined.
21:28:32 <int-e> wob_jonas: The reason that there are only few descriptions may well be that to a large extent the methods for the 4x4x4 cube generalize to arbitrary sizes.
21:29:17 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but there are already too few descriptions for the 4x4x4
21:29:25 <wob_jonas> I want to learn the 4x4x4, and it's for that that I don't find enough descriptions
21:32:50 <wob_jonas> As for the written descriptions, my only problem is that this stupid English-based FB LR UD notation got spread. Even if you insist on English, all consonants like NF LR TB would work better, but I'm partial to the Hungarian ST NK FL.
21:35:23 <wob_jonas> But even this way, a written description is better than those stupid video tutorials.
21:41:04 <int-e> Hmm, http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/4-solution.html looks okay for a start.
21:41:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:42:04 -!- tromp has joined.
21:43:58 <int-e> (and I think the first two steps, centers and edges, are intuitive enough... fixing the parity problems in the last step is what requires additional algorithms. (And I've noticed in videos that top speedcubers seem to do something a bit different there, but I haven't figured out their trick.)
21:45:12 -!- ilbelkyr has left.
21:52:53 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, if you want to fix the 2 bits of parity in the end, then I do know more or less how to do the centers, although I'm doing them with a somewhat slow algorithm and might want a faster one.
21:53:33 <wob_jonas> but I would like to know a better way to pair the edges, and at least good ways to fix both parities, possibly also ways to keep the parity from earlier
21:54:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:54:45 -!- tromp has joined.
21:59:03 <int-e> I'm fixing the edge flip the moment I finish the first two layers of the 3x3x3 cube.
22:00:08 <int-e> But anyway I'm not really aiming to be fast... and if I were I would probably be working on the 3x3x3 last layer.
22:03:41 -!- LKoen has joined.
22:03:47 <wob_jonas> int-e: that sounds like a reasonable strategy. how about the permutation?
22:04:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
22:07:35 -!- Remavas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:09:09 -!- hkgit03 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:10:21 <int-e> @tell wob_jonas Swapping edges? I do that last, I don't know how to get any advantage out of doing it earlier.
22:10:39 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
22:12:17 <int-e> wob_jonas: (lambdabot has a message for you)
22:14:29 <int-e> Anyway the point is that miraculously, the combination I have for flipping an edge, if one turns half of the cube instead of just the inner slices, only messes up the top layer; trying the same "optimization" for the swap of two opposite edges would mess up edges and centers on the sides.
22:15:40 <int-e> But I'm also bad at spotting the parity mismatch in the piece permutations, while spotting an extra flipped edge is trivial.
22:15:59 <int-e> (in the last layer)
22:20:37 <wob_jonas> int-e: so at what stage do you fix the 3x3x3 permutation, and if you have to fix it, how much do you have to redo?
22:21:42 <int-e> not sure what you mean by 3x3x3 permutation
22:22:56 -!- moony has joined.
22:23:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: I take it you're solving a 4x4x4 this way: first solve all centers, then pair each 12 pairs of edges, then start solving the cube as if it was a 3x3x3, with a 3x3x3 algorithm turning only faces.
22:23:30 <int-e> I have centers, edges, f2l, optional edge flip, last layer (slow), optional edge swap, so the piece permutation parity is fixed last
22:24:16 <wob_jonas> If you do that, there are two things that can go wrong: the edge flip parity of the 3x3x3 can be wrong, so you have to flip an edge, or the permutation parity of the 3x3x3 can be wrong, so you have to fix that.
22:24:56 <wob_jonas> Ok. So the optional edge swap is the very last swap and it changes nothing else than the edge swap. Ok.
22:29:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:33:07 * oerjan suddenly realizes wob_jonas used the correct preposition with "remind" in an iwc forum message
22:33:20 -!- LKoen has joined.
22:33:47 -!- augur has joined.
22:34:34 <int-e> oh well, early start tomorrow, good night
22:35:14 <int-e> (Hmm, I seem to always use "oh well" before saying "good night". Oh well, that can't be helped. :-P)
22:36:47 <oerjan> . o O ( Oh well, he said, as he feel into it )
22:37:17 <HackEgo> muphrys law//Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
22:37:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:38:10 -!- augur has joined.
22:39:11 <int-e> oerjan: https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/c/chesterton/gk/man_who_knew_too_much/chapter6.html hth
22:39:26 <int-e> (I read that last night)
22:45:37 -!- erkin has joined.
22:46:35 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh wow, that's a very old web page (on the 4x4x4 description). that really proves that youtube ruined everything.
22:48:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:56:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:01:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:07:46 <wob_jonas> Ok, so what I asked is at least not a trivial question => https://blog.cr.yp.to/20171017-collisions.html
23:28:33 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:46:34 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:55:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:56:07 -!- MrBusiness has joined.
23:56:54 -!- Sgeo has joined.