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01:23:47 <esowiki> [[PL/MIX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53802 * B jonas * (+1065) Created page with "'''PL/MIX''' would have been a programming language that runs on the [[MIX (Knuth)|MIX]] computer. Donald Knuth would have described and implemented PL/MIX in The Art of Comp..."
01:24:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53803&oldid=53659 * B jonas * (+13)
01:24:54 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth
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01:26:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think you can make it.
01:28:00 <ais523> well, describe, at least
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01:39:44 <zzo38> I would still want to see PL/MIX.
01:40:31 <wob_jonas> We can also "describe" the ideal ancient C-like language that was the divine inspiration for prophets K&R, which got a bit distorted in their transcription. It would be rather similar to C, but the bitwise binary operators would probably have a higher precedence than the comparison operators.
01:40:42 <wob_jonas> That probably isn't the only difference.
01:41:23 <ais523> wob_jonas: the compound assignment operators had the = first
01:41:34 <ais523> (note that in present C, that + would be a unary +)
01:41:43 <ais523> I assume it was changed due to being ambiguous
01:42:05 <wob_jonas> but the ideal language probably uses += because =+ is ambiguous
01:42:06 <ais523> although as it's an abbreviation for a = a + b, abbreviating to =+ makes sense
01:42:19 <wob_jonas> I think the original pre-ansi C didn't have a monadic +
01:42:20 <ais523> oh, I see, I thought you were just talking about pre-standardisation C
01:42:53 <wob_jonas> I consider K&R prophets who didn't invent the language, but described the language God thought of
01:43:12 <wob_jonas> only they aren't perfect prophets, so they made some mistakes where they misunderstood the language God described to them in their prophetic visions
01:43:38 <wob_jonas> and the precedence of bitwise vs comparison is one of those mistakes, but it's too late to change now
01:44:08 <ais523> C is a pretty awkward language anyway
01:44:18 <ais523> it's meant to be close to the processor except processors don't work like that nowadays
01:44:39 <wob_jonas> the goal of that language is more or less the same as the goal of C, that is, being a simple then-high-level language that is easy to compile to any computer of that time, but allows writing portable programs among them
01:44:53 <wob_jonas> it was close to processors at that time
01:45:14 <ais523> that said, modern CPUs aren't even close to Checkout (which is fairly close to modern /G/PUs)
01:45:15 <wob_jonas> was still quite close to 386 actually, in both 16-bit and 32-bit mode
01:45:46 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout
01:46:15 <wob_jonas> right, that's supposed to be close to GPUs, not to CPUs
01:46:45 <wob_jonas> that's not close to CPUs by design
01:46:55 <ais523> well modern CPUs are more like Checkout than they are like C
01:46:58 <ais523> but they aren't that close to either
01:47:08 <zzo38> I would want to see a implementation of Checkout that can run on GPUs
01:47:55 <ais523> it probably compiles into both Cuda and OpenCL fairly directly
01:49:52 <zzo38> (Adding sine, cosine, and arctangent, and perhaps vector ops, and conditional set; do a few thing like ARB assembly language (although ARB assembly language is missing a arctangent function).)
01:50:25 <ais523> zzo38: Checkout effectively has vector operations
01:50:49 <ais523> just do a level 1 command inside a parloop
01:51:32 <zzo38> O, that's how you do it. But then if you need to combine with dot products?
01:53:41 <ais523> zzo38: level 1 has more than one word of memory (although it only has a few), there's enough space to do dot products there on most GPUs
01:54:12 <ais523> if not, say, you're trying to sum a vector whose elements were calculated in parallel, you use checkout/2 to shift the memory around and do a sort of binary tree sum
01:54:26 <ais523> s/say, you're/say you're/
01:54:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sine, cosine, and arctangent really aren't low-level commands appropriate for a language like checkout, I think. they're more like something you could implement as various library functions.
01:55:12 <wob_jonas> that's also true for modern CPUs by the way, and there are lots of library implementations
01:55:16 <ais523> wob_jonas: I wouldn't be surprised if modern GPUs had built-in trig lookups
01:55:17 <zzo38> The wiki article does say that it may include trigonometric functions and exponents, but not yet
01:55:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: they might have built-in ops that help, but not a full precise sine for every possible input I think
01:56:05 <ais523> wob_jonas: the built-in impl is probably something along the lines of fast inverse square root
01:56:12 <wob_jonas> there are probably various library implementations of course
01:56:17 <ais523> except it's faster if you do it in hardware and have a lookup to help
01:56:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but inverse square root (and even square root) is totally so much easier to compute than sine or arctangent
01:57:47 <wob_jonas> at least if you compute the inverse square root and square root with hardware help, which is what you do these days
01:59:16 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth
01:59:18 <HackEgo> 1318) <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth
01:59:57 <zzo38> I don't know much about GPU either, but Checkout look like it can be good.
02:01:22 <zzo38> I have done programs in ARB assembly language, but found a few things I thought should have been done differently, such as, I would have thought using SSA would be better than what it currently does; I also thought it was missing a arctangent function.
02:02:30 <zzo38> (Also there is no integer mode; due to this, some things are complicated to implement properly.)
02:10:59 <ais523> hmm, now I sort-of want to make an esolang whose purpose is to be vaporware
02:11:17 <ais523> have a logo, grand claims about what it does, lots of documentation about governance and coding style and the like
02:11:21 <ais523> but no actual specification or implementation
02:12:00 <ais523> the great thing about this language is that as soon as anyone comes up with the concept of it, it by definition exists, because if it's ever completed it's completed and if it isn't completed it's vaporware, thus fulfils its own definition
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02:14:18 <ais523> wow, I just played the BF Derivatives Game for the first time in years, and scored only 2 (which is a very good score)
02:14:38 <ais523> I think the average quality of the wiki is improving :-D
02:14:56 <ais523> (PPCG even complained that we didn't have enough BF substitutions, although admittedly they were just looking for easy adds to the polyglot)
02:14:57 <oerjan> the PPCG people are helping
02:15:26 <ais523> oerjan: did you see that Ursala got added?
02:15:31 <ais523> IMO the polyglot is now redeemed
02:15:52 <ais523> also, the current Ursala docs make it fairly clear that the author has come to terms with the fact that it's actually an esolang
02:16:01 <oerjan> i upvote nearly every addition to that one.
02:16:24 <boily> is ursala an esolang or not.
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02:17:19 <ais523> boily: it was originally a borderline case but I think the author has finally admitted it's an esolang
02:17:34 <ais523> even originally it was described as being very experimental syntax-wise
02:18:45 <boily> thoerjan, thais523.
02:19:40 <boily> it looks like über-compressed golfing imho.
02:20:50 <ais523> boily: it's like a cross between two languages
02:21:00 <ais523> a pointer language, which looks like golflangs but is actually much more inefficient than that
02:21:10 <ais523> and a more general language around it, which looks more like perl 6
02:22:00 <shachaf> Experimental and esoteric are pretty orthogonal, aren't they?
02:22:24 <ais523> writing experimental languages is my day job
02:22:37 <ais523> and I often try to make them as non-eso as possible to not scare people off
02:22:48 <ais523> but my esoprogramming skills are helpful in actually writing programs in the languages I create
02:22:58 <boily> helloochaf. I would've thought they're p. much parallel, no?
02:43:07 <oerjan> . o O ( general position )
02:47:20 <ais523> anyway, a challenge I've been thinking a lot about recently: design an esolang so that the size of programs in the language, plus the size of the interpreter, is in general as small as possible
02:47:52 <shachaf> The interpreter in what language?
02:47:56 <ais523> this is intended for programs that are fairly large on modern systems as typical executables, in the hundreds of megabytes range
02:48:14 <ais523> shachaf: arbitrary languages, i.e. the interpreter is small compared to the size of the programs and easy to port
02:48:23 <ais523> most likely various dialects of machine code though
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06:10:29 <izabera> did you know that this is a thing
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06:11:36 <HackEgo> [U+1F4C8 CHART WITH UPWARDS TREND]
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06:57:11 <oerjan> . o O ( ah the bitcoin symbol )
07:00:31 <HackEgo> U+1F4B9 CHART WITH UPWARDS TREND AND YEN SIGN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 b9 UTF-16BE: d83ddcb9 Decimal: 💹 \ 💹 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F4C8 CHART WITH UPWARDS TREND \ UTF-8: f0 9f 93 88 UTF-16BE: d83ddcc8 Decimal: 📈 \ 📈 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F4C9
07:01:33 <oerjan> `` unicode CHART | grep CHART
07:01:35 <HackEgo> U+1F4B9 CHART WITH UPWARDS TREND AND YEN SIGN \ U+1F4C8 CHART WITH UPWARDS TREND \ U+1F4C9 CHART WITH DOWNWARDS TREND \ U+1F4CA BAR CHART \ U+1F5E0 STOCK CHART
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08:36:25 <zzo38> If you live close enough to Knuth can you ask him about PL/MIX and XMIX?
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08:39:04 <doesthiswork> just tell him you're correcting a mistake in the book
08:40:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Why don't you send him mail?
08:41:36 <doesthiswork> However if you aren't careful he'll write another book about it
08:43:08 <zzo38> shachaf: I tried once and have not received a reply for several years. (But I know his secretary received it because the man who delivered it said so.)
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09:10:49 <shachaf> I got responses to emails via his secretary
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09:22:57 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53804&oldid=47226 * Zzo38 * (+104) Some additions and corrections
09:33:12 <esowiki> [[Two]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53805&oldid=40308 * Zzo38 * (+49) Add categories
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11:58:14 <b_jonas> ais523: if Ursala turned out to be an esolang, then should the wiki get a page on it?
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12:09:18 <lambdabot> CYUL 121200Z 15015KT 8SM -RA SCT040 BKN075 OVC100 07/06 A2972 RMK SC4AC2AC2 SLP068
12:14:03 <int-e> boily: I have replaced http://downthetypehole.de/paste/So5kdG0C by http://downthetypehole.de/paste/nokKZ5De which even has some suggestive comments that are readable :)
12:15:42 <boily> comments! readability! ^^
12:22:49 <b_jonas> Obviously we have to be careful, or else we'll go on the slippery slope and add an entry for every programming language because someone considers it esoteric. It would start with APL-likes and perl, then prolog, cobol, php, awk, bash, haskell, common lisp, and eventually we'd get to even the saner languages like java and C and fortran.
12:24:49 <int-e> . o O ( Category: Nonesoteric )
12:28:52 <boily> php is esoteric? D:
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12:30:31 <int-e> @tell boily arguably, PHP started out as esoteric, then it became mainstream, and then it became a programming language
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12:48:09 <b_jonas> whereas perl started out as esoteric, then it became mainstream, but it never became a programming language
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13:23:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/procrasti wisdom/procrastination
13:23:59 <HackEgo> The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it.
13:24:02 <HackEgo> The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this last funny cat clip on youtube.
13:24:40 <b_jonas> "New Year's Resolution: do all my procrastination right now — don't keep putting it off." -- John Baez at http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/january_2018.html
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14:27:59 <b_jonas> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/make-love -- ah yes. a comic about the openssl changes that aren't source-compatible and retroactively introduce bugs in existing applications unless the maintainer very carefully re-reads the entire fucking manual at the major version bump. if you don't want to re-read it, you can never upgrade the major version of openssl, but the old version isn't maintained anymore.
14:33:58 <b_jonas> https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/rivals-ixalan-update-bulletin-2018-01-11 M:tG, Rivals of Ixalan Update Bulletin
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20:19:58 <lambdabot> It is necessary for me to establish a winner image. Therefore, I have to beat somebody.
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20:37:32 <esowiki> [[3switchBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53806&oldid=40847 * Mr Meems * (-1) Proofing
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23:57:27 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 26m 55s ago: arguably, PHP started out as esoteric, then it became mainstream, and then it became a programming language
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