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02:00:56 <HackEgo> 1/2:oasys//You are next to an oasis, with high dunes of sand surrounding it. You are likely to be eaten by a camel. \ palate//Palate is usually a metaphor for a person's preferences about food or drink. \ b_jonas//b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. \ cuisine//Cuisine is the posh cousin of cooking.
02:00:58 <HackEgo> 2/2:\ just//Just is just a just adverb.
02:02:14 <shachaf> `` \? "$(grWp -lP '(is|are) just' | shuf -n1)"
02:11:24 <boily> private transient volatile static final Wind WIND;
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02:32:30 <fizzie> `` find wisdom -type f -exec grep -h ' is just ' '{}' + > /tmp/just; /usr/bin/paste -d' ' <(shuf -n 5 /tmp/just | sed -e 's/ is just .*//') <(yes 'is just' | head -n 5) <(shuf -n 5 /tmp/just | sed -e 's/.* is just //')
02:32:31 <HackEgo> Frozen water is just an epimorphism in the opposite category. \ jargon is just a small thin skeletal category. \ The 1 is just a store comonad coalgebra. \ Equal temperament is just "ø" for øfficiency reasons. \ Codensity is just a classical watch extended with a certain amount of mustard in the mechanism.
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04:45:11 <esowiki> [[Brainwang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53896&oldid=53282 * Challenger5 * (+35)
04:47:05 <esowiki> [[K-on Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53897&oldid=43914 * Challenger5 * (+36) Added category
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08:09:59 <zzo38> I thought of a way to make a simple kind of database file where it has fixed size pages, and then each record has a 32-bit number as the key, and then the index specifies which page each record by key begins on and they then either link to the next page or to give the length of the remaining data on this page if it is the last one. Maybe there is already such a thing I don't know
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08:23:04 <oerjan> there isn't really any common part to those
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08:35:20 <zzo38> Do you know the answer of my question?
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08:51:38 <HackEgo> `5//`5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2.
08:53:17 * oerjan noted some painful non-use of `grwp in the logs the other day
08:54:04 <int-e> all I saw was a painful misuse of find/xargs :P
08:54:32 <int-e> the fact that it was the wisdom subdirectory didn't really register with me.
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08:54:56 <fungot> int-e: i have a good tutorial on continuations?
08:55:16 <int-e> fungot: please continue...
08:55:17 <fungot> int-e: i don't see why you want c's switch, but it's just another argument to the result
08:55:48 <int-e> fungot: let's not have this argument now
08:55:48 <fungot> int-e: there's some of the loops in your compiler. i'll just
08:55:55 <fungot> int-e: so you might look into enhancing the type analysis.
08:56:14 <int-e> oh I fell out of its good graces :(
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09:06:05 <oerjan> fungot: your continuations are too delimited tdnh
09:06:06 <fungot> oerjan: xor linking is bad. if you had such semimutable pairs, you can either specifically state variable location or let the compiler tell me how to dial " ci`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.h`c``sc``sc``sc`ki prints hello, world!
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10:01:29 <oerjan> gil seems to be looking better lately
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12:55:31 <int-e> it's true, he seems to finally be getting some sleep
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15:30:21 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2018-D21.esosc
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15:41:04 <mroman> (and http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2018-D20.esosc of course)
15:52:38 <int-e> "tell me how to dial " ci`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.h`c``sc``sc``sc`ki" is brilliant
15:55:18 <b_jonas> inr-e: um... shouldn't that start with a backtick or something?
15:55:49 <int-e> missing two backticks, I guess.
15:55:50 <fungot> b_jonas: toki pona was created by plt scheme, what do you mean? :p. ugh i need to figure out how
15:56:27 <int-e> but indeed, the brilliant part is that it came from fungot
15:56:28 <fungot> int-e: even riastradh couldn't convince me to become a good programmer if you can't see anything in swindle pertaining to an ffi...
15:57:01 <int-e> (also, if Unlambda took a slice from INTERCAL, " would mean ``)
15:57:39 <int-e> (the INTERCAL thing is that ! is a '. ligature, IIRC)
15:57:56 <b_jonas> um.... no, a double quote doesn't mean two backticks in intercal. it's like in python or perl or ruby, a double quote is just another kind of single quote, you have to use one or the other paired with itself
15:58:10 <b_jonas> oh, the ! ligature. right, I forgot that one.
15:58:35 <b_jonas> although I think it was supposed to be an overstruck apostrophe and dot on the punch card originally, not a true exclamation mark
16:04:12 <mroman> Is nortti still alive?
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17:00:24 <HackEgo> dth//dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
17:02:03 <mroman> How's the traffic on the blsq shell?
17:02:45 -!- sleffy has joined.
17:08:05 <int-e> (I have no access logs)
17:08:22 <int-e> (maybe I should have some? hmm)
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17:12:20 <int-e> I'm curious though, so I have access logs starting from now.
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18:43:17 <mroman> @tell nortti you still alive?
18:44:07 <int-e> mroman: I has logs now.
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18:44:41 <int-e> with *one* access to the burlesque shell (myself, testing the logs)
19:07:21 <zzo38> Many telephones and other stuff with similar keypads will use that telephone system to enter text, such as having to push more than once the same number, etc. An alternative would be to use a system based on punched card codes; push 0 and 2 together to make "S", for example.
19:11:22 -!- nortti has joined.
19:11:40 <nortti> hm, how did the bot work
19:12:17 <nortti> mroman: yeah, I just drifted elsewhere on IRC and left this place after I no longer really followed the conversations here
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19:13:20 <mroman> zzo38: and that would be significantly easier?
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19:13:32 <mroman> and how do you write this on the keypad so newbies know what to press?
19:20:52 <zzo38> mroman: Well, it would be faster; the existing system is too slow.
19:24:02 <zzo38> If you have the bottom row keys "-" and "0" and "&" then the "1" key could be marked "J/A" to indicate which letters would be typed by those combinations.
19:25:16 <zzo38> (You still need separate buttons for space, backspace, send, etc)
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19:27:53 <mroman> also you'd need more than one finger.
19:28:08 -!- nortti has left ("Only in silence the word, only in dark the light, only in dying life: bright the hawk's flight on the empty sky. —The creation of Éa").
19:29:24 <zzo38> Yes, but still I think it is faster; I have tried such experiment and it seems faster to me.
19:37:28 <mroman> I'll get back to you once you have a peer-reviewed study about keypads :D
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19:48:01 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose, it will help. Unfortunately, I have no such thing.
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19:58:45 <int-e> I'm so glad I have this access log now. "HEAD /phpmyadmin/scripts/setup.php HTTP/1.0"
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19:59:33 <int-e> (I guess that is kind of boring)
19:59:57 <mroman> zzo38: you could write an esosc draft for such a keypad.
20:01:08 <int-e> meh I need a channel to offload all the funny requests that anyone who's running a http server probably knows already
20:01:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
20:01:44 <zzo38> mroman: What is esosc draft, and how to write such thing?
20:02:08 <int-e> mroman: anyway, see logs (see topic)
20:04:14 <zzo38> I got the request "SSH-2.0-Go" on my HTTP server. (The same address sent a proper HTTP request two minutes later.)
20:04:19 <mroman> It's a semi-serious semi-legit esoteric totally invented standards body
20:04:35 <HackEgo> esosc is esoteric song contest (also Esoteric Standard Committee)
20:05:04 <mroman> But hey! We have two approved standards!
20:05:29 <int-e> for example, I didn't know that there is a DuckDuckGo-Favicons-Bot
20:06:59 <zzo38> (I also got a IRC command on the HTTP server. The same address made a proper HTTP request a few seconds later. A few seconds before the IRC command was a request consisting of binary data.)
20:07:44 <int-e> makes sense. people run all sorts of services on port 80
20:07:55 <int-e> because that's the one that most firewalls don't filter
20:09:03 <int-e> (this applies to port 443 as well, I guess)
20:09:08 <mroman> The original idea was to fight the poor quality of esowiki articles and focus on quality specs rather than quantity.
20:09:14 <zzo38> I suppose it can work, since the commands are going to be different; you could easily have HTTP, IRC, and gopher, all together on the same port. Still I would put them on different ports
20:09:37 <int-e> not necessarily all on the same host :P
20:10:52 <mroman> As in esosc specs would have had some reasonable quality requirements for esolang specs.
20:12:01 <mroman> Contrary to esowiki articles
20:12:05 <zzo38> mroman: OK. But is a keypad such a thing?
20:14:07 <mroman> If it's esoteric and related to computer science it probably fits.
20:15:22 <mroman> Not that esosc has any legal validity or support from any industry 😅
20:17:09 <mroman> It's just for fun mostly
20:19:16 <mroman> http://esosc.mroman.ch/ESOSC-2014-A1.TXT
20:19:35 <mroman> It says 'esolang related works' tho
20:20:11 <mroman> Not sure if esoteric human-computer interfaces count as related.
20:22:22 <zzo38> But according to that document, I am apparently not allowed to write esosc drafts?
20:22:27 <Taneb> What are we asking me?
20:22:51 <mroman> You can submit drafts.
20:23:30 <mroman> Well 'proposal' but a proposal is just a draft.
20:23:48 <Taneb> mroman, I think a proposal is a pre-draft
20:24:36 <Taneb> It doen't get a number until one of us officially submits it
20:25:01 <mroman> Hm. Well the idea is that people can 'draft' stuff submit it as a proposal then it becomes an official draft?
20:25:13 <Taneb> Something like that
20:26:51 <zzo38> There seem another thing, since there is many members, you will have to agree what EUIN number to use, otherwise it will conflict. It can be avoided by assigning each member a block of numbers to use for their own drafts. (There are a few other things I also don't like about EUIN, but that is different)
20:27:16 <mroman> Obviously the idea wasn't to exclude people but to ensure better quality
20:28:06 <mroman> Numbers are usually just monotonically increasing?
20:28:37 <mroman> Yep, says so in the A1
20:29:35 <mroman> 23 would be the next free number currently
20:30:36 <mroman> 22 is referenced from 21.
20:30:58 <mroman> Also you can apply to become member of course.
20:32:44 <mroman> If you start a draft it becomes an upcoming draft
20:33:30 <mroman> If it has reached almost ready to be submitted it becomes a working draft.
20:34:12 <mroman> So you just allocate a number by making it an upcomming draft.
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20:39:04 <mroman> What else do you not like abou EUIN?
20:40:47 <zzo38> A different format would be: It has three or four parts with - in between. First part is "ESOSC". Second part is AD year number. Third part is a document number, which is any number in the submitter's block unique per year, and the fourth part is optional and is the version number. If the version number is omitted then it is an alias for the latest approved version. You need not change EUINs for status changes.
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20:44:40 <mroman_> well I guess we can add that to A1
20:44:50 <mroman_> that no revision number -> latest version
20:45:37 <mroman_> if there's a reference like `See ESOSC-2014-A3` and then you make a revision
20:45:41 <zzo38> It already says revision numbers shall be avoided for approved standards
20:45:41 <mroman_> then the old reference would be invalid
20:46:05 <zzo38> I am just saying that revision numbers are optional rather than prohibited for approved standards.
20:46:16 <zzo38> Documents that require a specific referense should always include version numbers.
20:46:54 <zzo38> (Or maybe I misunderstood the document; I don't know)
20:47:19 <mroman_> I think it was intended to be able to create revisions of approved standards
20:47:56 <mroman_> > A new revision of an approved standard is put into the draft state and requires the usual approval process taking place.
20:48:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: error: parse error on input ‘of’
20:48:20 <zzo38> O, yes, it says that.
20:49:02 <mroman_> can't really remember what the criteria for Revision vs obsoletion was :D
20:49:08 <mroman_> maybe we didn't even think this far.
20:49:51 <mroman_> or maybe it was meant for updates?
20:50:28 <mroman_> like you have a language, then later decide to extend it with a useful new feature
20:51:28 <mroman_> O is basically for "don't use this anymore"
20:52:30 <mroman_> I think that 'shall' is a typo
20:53:49 <mroman_> also maybe it should be that ESOSC-XXXX-AY refers to the latest version
20:53:58 <mroman_> and ESOSC-XXXX-AY-R1 refers to the newest version
20:54:10 <mroman_> ESOSC-XXXX-AY-R2 to the second.
20:55:16 <mroman_> but good feedback. We probably should clarify a few things in A1
20:55:22 <mroman_> also whether to round 2/3 upwards or downwards :D
20:55:51 <mroman_> if there are 4 members do you need 2 votes or 3 votes?
20:56:12 <mroman_> or rounded to the nearest number.
20:56:52 <zzo38> Similar to (although the letters "A" and "R" are omitted, and omitting the number is an alias (not the canonical code) for the latest accepted version; not necessarily the latest version). It omits the status since if it does, you need to update the number when it is made obsolete. One thing that can be done is an optional fifth part, which is the status; if omitted, it refers to the same document anyways.
20:57:32 <mroman_> I'd also ditch the year actually
20:57:35 <mroman_> the year isn't really useful imo
20:58:13 <mroman_> and it's not the year of the latest revision
20:58:16 <mroman_> but the year of first issue :D
20:58:24 <mroman_> so it doesn't even tell you how old this really is.
20:59:00 <zzo38> I think it is useful, if using the submitter block numbers I mention. If each block has 366 numbers, then each member can submit up to 366 new drafts per year.
21:00:18 <mroman_> you'd start at zero again in 2018?
21:02:05 <zzo38> That is just an example; the block size can be different.
21:02:39 <mroman_> numbers don't really need to mean anything to humans anyway :D
21:02:50 <mroman_> humans will refer to it using the title.
21:04:05 <zzo38> Which numbers the submitter uses is their own choice and need not be in order, but it does have to belong to the submitter's block and be unique, and the version numbers have to be monotonic, and year numbers should be correct.
21:05:43 <zzo38> But yes, you can generally refer to it using the title. Still it helps to have the numbers; my own recommendation is to not use aliases when refering to a specific document (aliases are more useful when you refer to a specific programming language or whatever, rather than to a document).
21:07:04 <mroman_> so you'd have 2018-1-1-DRAFT
21:07:18 <mroman_> which is revision 1 of '1' and it's in DRAFT Status.
21:08:30 <mroman_> although the last part could be optional yes
21:08:34 <zzo38> Yes, like that. (Although the final "-D" is optional; if omitted, it is guaranteed to refer to the same document. It is put there only for convenience to those who see the number to know if it is a draft)
21:08:38 <mroman_> otherwise you have to update everything.
21:08:48 <mroman_> if you reference ESOSC-2014-A33 and it becomes ESOSC-2014-O33
21:08:55 <mroman_> then the reference ESOSC-2014-A33 would look weird.
21:10:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is why I say, it is optional.
21:14:43 <zzo38> The document ESOSC-2014-A1 also includes a non-ASCII character. My recommendation is that it is recommended (not required; there are valid reasons to use non-ASCII characters) that documents use only ASCII characters.
21:18:31 <mroman_> there's a non-ascii character?
21:19:23 <mroman_> probably a non-printable one?
21:21:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ESOSC': not found
21:21:08 <zzo38> One line says "standard to ensure uniqueness. The EUIN doesn<E2><80><99>t change except for the prefix"
21:21:52 <zzo38> It includes the non-ASCII character <E2><80><99>.
21:23:14 <int-e> `unidecode doesn’t
21:23:15 <HackEgo> [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T]
21:24:14 <int-e> firefox treats ' and ’ as the same in its search, wtf.
21:25:28 <zzo38> int-e: I think that is reasonable in case-insensitive mode. In case-sensitive mode they should not be treated the same.
21:26:36 <zzo38> (Still, you should be allowed to customize it even in case-insensitive mode, I think)
21:26:37 <int-e> zzo38: you're right, switching on "Match Case" makes a difference
21:48:36 <mroman_> do we need to add a paragraph about patents and liability and shit :D?
21:48:52 <mroman_> I'm starting to think that such a document certainly has some 'legal stuff' to it.
21:49:02 <mroman_> since this probably constitutes an 'organization' of some sort.
21:51:42 <zzo38> Maybe. Add the specification that it is patent-free (which means either it isn't patented, the patent has expired, or it is unrevocably licensed for anyone to use for any reason in any circumstances).
21:52:46 <mroman_> I mean... we can't guarantee that standards we write aren't patented by someone else
21:53:19 <zzo38> Yes, I know, it is not guarantee. But, it is at least the intention to be patent-free
21:57:41 <zzo38> Another idea is to have full members and half members. A half member is assigned a block of document numbers and may submit drafts but can't approve new members or new documents, and are not counted when considering two thirds, and only one full member needs to approve of a new half member; to become a full member the usual rules must apply to approve them.
21:58:42 <mroman_> actually we could say that the ESOSC *merely* validates the quality of stuff
21:58:46 <mroman_> but doesn't really endorse anything
21:59:03 <zzo38> Yes, OK, say that.
22:01:36 <int-e> ESOSC DOES NOT ENDORSE LEGAL SHIT.
22:01:41 <int-e> (EXPRESS OR IMPLIED)
22:04:11 <int-e> (ESOSC standards aim to be patent nonsense, but not patented nonsense.)
22:05:25 <int-e> . o O ( `learn Patents are patent nonsense with disproportionate legal ramifications. )
22:08:04 <zzo38> I think also it should say: For a new member to become a full member, in addition to a 2/3 vote, the new member must also agree to be a full member; if he does not agree then he is a half member instead.
22:08:48 <zzo38> (This avoids a problem with having new members who are not going to vote who is a new member.)
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22:30:04 <mroman_> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-1-2.esosc
22:30:08 <mroman_> I guess that should do the trick.
22:30:26 <mroman_> Makes it pretty clear that we're not a serious organization :D
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22:34:53 <mroman_> hm. also if you change the rules
22:35:01 <mroman_> member should have to re-confirm their member status
22:35:04 <mroman_> they might want to leave the esosc.
22:35:26 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb).
22:37:04 <mroman_> nah. just state that one can leave at any point obviously.
22:40:48 <zzo38> What does a "P" suffix mean?
22:41:46 <zzo38> Other than that it looks good to me.
22:43:06 <mroman_> Can you @tell multiple persons?
22:43:25 <mroman_> @tell mroman_, lambdabot Waddup?
22:44:14 <mroman_> @tell Taneb please have a look at http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-1-2.esosc and let me know what you think of it.
22:44:26 <mroman_> @tell nortti please have a look at http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-1-2.esosc and let me know what you think of it.
22:44:58 <mroman_> aw crap now the psychiatrist line is gone.
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23:16:41 <HackEgo> olist 1111: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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23:47:39 <Sgeo_> Why am I suddenly interested in Pokemon TCG?
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23:51:08 <HackEgo> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
23:51:49 <HackEgo> 2079:2013-02-09 <Tanëb> learn sgeolang currently is either J or Io. \ 5581:2015-06-15 <shachäf> ` sed -i \'s/ei\\|or/n&/g\' wisdom/sgeolang \ 5586:2015-06-16 <oerjän> learn Sgeolang is probably Rust ATM. \ 8088:2016-05-20 <oerjän> learn Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.