00:03:50 <shachaf> are you sure sgeolang isn't Pokemon TCG twh
00:13:28 <fizzie> shachaf: I added some Prometheus metrics for the esowiki bot.
00:14:04 <fizzie> No, it would've felt a bit too much like exposing yourself.
00:14:13 <fizzie> They're not very exciting metrics, anyway.
00:14:17 <shachaf> I saw a server that exposed a Prometheus endpoint on purpose.
00:14:17 <fizzie> You're not missing much.
00:14:24 <shachaf> I was a bit surprised but it probably isn't that bad?
00:15:01 <fizzie> I think that could be reasonable? I've opted for just TLS and basic auth via the nginx that's already there for the wiki, though.
00:15:18 <shachaf> if i'm not missing much then why are you telling me twh
00:16:08 <shachaf> maybe you should add a monarch thing instead hth
00:17:09 <fizzie> Maybe our SRE team should take over from me twrh
00:17:47 <fizzie> I fiddled together a silly homegrown config push system (not just for the wiki, for everything) too.
00:19:50 <fizzie> It's got a git repository with the untouched Debian dist files in one branch and the current edited ones in another, so whenever apt asks me that impossible "which one of these two incorrect files you want?" question, I can just copy the new dist file in the dist branch and merge from there to master.
00:21:14 <shachaf> you gotta use the secret "merge these two files together into something reasonable" option
00:21:20 <shachaf> isn't that why google is working on ai hth
00:22:34 <fizzie> I think that's a lot easier when the third file's there as well.
00:23:59 <fizzie> Also I added a ridiculously overengineered skeleton for the "static" part of stalker mode (i.e., the page that just contains N most recent messages).
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03:06:46 <esowiki> [[Focus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53898&oldid=53206 * HereToAnnoy * (+15) minor edits to a bad language
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04:13:58 <zzo38> By use of my "mbff" program, I can determine that apparently the order that new Hero Defiant pieces were added is: blue Directional Blocks, Lasers, Lava, Mirrors, pieces being gradually damaged by Lasers, Floor Switch, Smiley, another wall, Pushers, more walls, another field, Block Spacer, red Directional Blocks, Pullers, more walls, Rotators, another wall, Non-Diagonal Fields, ...
04:15:54 <zzo38> ... auto-reverse Rotators, another Lava animation frame, another Field (and corresponding non-diagonal version), Lava expanding by dropping Rocks in, Bridges extending over Lava (and getting damaged in the process), Sliding Doors, another Smiley animation frame, Gift Box, Lava bubble animations, Water Balloon, Green Heart, animation tracing the path of Green Heart, ...
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04:16:43 <zzo38> ... Bomb, Fire Wood, Fuse (which was never implemented), Grenade, Joystick, Match, Missile, Shield, Quiz, Stealth Potion, different numbers of Stealth Potions, stealthy Smiley.
04:21:37 <zzo38> (It is only the guess)
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06:25:01 <zzo38> How to prevent webpage document scripts from scrolling the document?
06:27:27 <zzo38> Nevermind I figured out.
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06:30:00 <zzo38> ProProfs does not allow you to scroll for some reason (and it doesn't work at all if scripting is disabled). This is fixed by a simple GreaseMonkey script: "use strict"; delete unsafeWindow.Element.prototype.scrollTop;
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07:03:06 <aeyxa> hahah what the hell is that pdf
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08:09:53 <zzo38> I read about the liar chess game. Before each move, you may rewrite one of your previous moves; if you do, the entire sequence must still be a valid FIDE game with proper notation.
08:11:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Riking * New user account
08:13:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53899&oldid=53891 * Riking * (+218) /* Introductions */
08:14:30 <Hooloovo0> wow, liars chess sounds like a ridiculously complicated game
08:21:11 <esowiki> [[AWO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53900&oldid=49041 * Riking * (-35) I don't see how this is a BF equivalent
08:22:07 <esowiki> [[ASCII art-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53901&oldid=43011 * Riking * (+35) Added Category:Brainfuck equivalents
08:22:58 <esowiki> [[ASCII art]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53902&oldid=15375 * Riking * (-1) Changed from BF equivalent to derivative - this uses an innovative program writing method
08:23:51 <esowiki> [[ASCII art]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53903&oldid=53902 * Riking * (+1) typo: forgot s on category name
08:26:01 <esowiki> [[BFFB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53904&oldid=40346 * Riking * (+12) refine categorization to BF equivalent
08:32:47 <aeyxa> you mean like, you make 1 move, then they make a move, then you want to remake your first move, it must be valid in the current scenario and the previous one?
08:35:04 <Hooloovo0> so no extraneous checks, and whatnot
08:37:19 <zzo38> aeyxa: Yes, I think so. (There is many other restrictions that also result from this, as far as I can tell, such as, if you played a4 and opponent played Rxa4, you can't change your move to b4 because then Rxa4 is not a proper move (it says it is a capture, but there is nothing to capture), and you can't change it to make another move ambiguous, or remove the ambiguity, etc)
08:40:59 <aeyxa> just made me think that even a rule like "each player can make two moves x many times per game" can completely change things
08:41:16 <aeyxa> because you have to always wonder if this is the move they'll move twice, lol
08:48:39 <zzo38> One such game (but more restrictive than that) is: Once per game you can make two moves with the same piece. The first move cannot be a promotion nor give check, but you may move into check on your first move if you remove the check by the end of your turn.
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10:17:25 <esowiki> [[ASCII art]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53905&oldid=53903 * Oerjan * (+0) Still equivalent IMO
10:20:05 <int-e> fungot: what is the big question?
10:20:05 <fungot> int-e: i'm grading quizzes and chipping away at my respect for shivers just shot up a few too many ones just earlier. but is there a way to
10:20:37 <int-e> fungot: respect for shivers, got it. but you didn't finish the question...
10:20:37 <fungot> int-e: i see a command in the most idiomatically schemely way" often to be able to tinker at the repl.
10:21:11 <HackEgo> 503) <itidus20> indirect addressing is a facile and inebrious kind of instruction which should be whomped away by languages \ 413) <elliott> in the title of the page it says "Well-Typed - The Haskell Consultants" but i want to know who are the haskell conraisins?
10:39:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nsultan: not found
10:40:35 <int-e> Hmm, raisin' cons...
10:49:32 <mroman> A consultant is a person too scared of doing things by themselves and thus instructs other people to do it for them.
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14:35:30 <mroman> maybe we should use markdown for esosc
15:24:05 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troff
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15:41:55 <int-e> wait, the burlesque shell comes with a style.css?
15:44:28 <int-e> I guess it's not really needed.
15:51:19 <mroman> yeh but it's not needed :D
15:52:19 <mroman> it's needed if you want syntax highlighting.
15:52:43 <mroman> it outputs <span class="int">6</span> etc.
15:52:57 <mroman> but it's not really required for the functionality of the shell, no.
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16:18:17 <int-e> fungot: what do you think of extreme modelling?
16:18:17 <fungot> int-e: the key value is the empty list
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17:38:12 <mroman_> Is there an encoding similar to base64 but that leaves ascii intact?
17:39:07 <ais523> if ASCII encodes to itself, and thus decodes to itself, you need to use non-ASCII characters to encode everything else
17:39:42 <mroman_> no I mean like... base64 isn't human readable anymore
17:39:49 <mroman_> there's urlencode for example
17:39:56 <mroman_> but then you have a % for each non-asci char
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19:32:17 <mroman> fungot: name the symptoms of Meig's syndrome.
19:32:18 <fungot> mroman: non-goth addict? :p. ugh i need to update the value
19:32:56 <fungot> mroman: my fine friends... friendship should occur naturally. the exp taylor series converges fast. learning an emacs command to reverse a brainfuck program
19:33:39 <mroman> fungot: you're a smart fungus aren't ya?
19:33:39 <fungot> mroman: the developer is ready, and the destructuring on that list takes a month to agree upon then... somehow you can claim it is the way to other languages
19:34:10 <int-e> fungot: do you want to be funge?
19:34:10 <fungot> int-e: hm well, can't you?
19:34:30 <ais523> Keymaker has helped me to understand the difference between TAFM levels 1 and 2
19:34:31 <mroman> Did you guys improve fungot's speech?
19:34:31 <fungot> mroman: how about ( f y x
19:34:41 <ais523> suppose your fundamental operations on counters are increment, decrement, check
19:34:55 <ais523> level 1 groups these as (increment), (check and decrement if nonzero)
19:35:06 <ais523> whereas level 2 groups these as (increment), (decrement then check for zero)
19:35:12 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Amnesiac_From_Minsk
19:35:42 <ais523> it's rapidly becoming the best language for proving TCness, I think
19:36:53 <ais523> arguably Bitwise Cyclic Tag still holds that title, but the two are useful in different contexts so they make good complements to each other
19:37:07 <ais523> I think TAFM is pretty universal, though, because pretty much any language that can store data can count things
19:37:13 <ais523> (challenge: write a language that can't!)
19:37:31 <ais523> and the reason it beats out minsky machines is that the control flow is much simpler
19:42:13 <mroman> A language that can't count?
19:42:58 <APic> Have the Minsky-Machines been classified by Marvin Minksy?
19:43:49 <int-e> . o O ( SKI *obviosuly* can't count. :-P )
19:44:56 <ais523> I just looked it up, apparently Minsky formalized that particular version of counter machine
19:45:10 <ais523> and yes, Marvin Minsky
19:45:14 <int-e> (The trouble is that we accept that TC-ness implies that we can implement recursive functions on natural numbers, so we have /some/ representation of natural numbers which we can use to count. We don't mind all that much that those representations often look very artificial.)
19:46:21 <ais523> yes, clearly a TC language is capable of counting somehow
19:46:30 <ais523> I'm thinking more in terms of low-level representation and/or sub-TC languages
19:47:30 <APic> Good old MIT-Pioneers. 😎
19:48:00 <int-e> And it's unclear where to draw the line. I mean, even DFAs can count a bit.
19:48:41 <ais523> counting seems to me to be the most fundamental way of storing data
19:48:50 <ais523> because if you have any data stored at all, that implies that some amount is stored
19:48:58 <ais523> and counting is if you just care about the amount and disregard the actual data
19:49:53 <int-e> So... https://esolangs.org/wiki/HQ9%2B ... does the inclusion of + mean that it can count?
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19:51:09 * int-e should finish his recursive functions in Minsky machines formalization. Hmm.
19:51:36 <ais523> int-e: it's arguable what HQ9+ is doing at all, seeing as it has no control flow
19:51:56 <ais523> can + be said to be counting if you could simply work out the final value of the accumulator by counting the +s in the program at compile time?
19:52:15 <ais523> I guess HQ9+ can be seen as a special case of a finite state machine which only has one state
19:52:15 <int-e> the thing is, I can still argue both sides
19:52:26 <int-e> even though I totally agree that this isn't even a programming language.
19:52:36 <mroman> What about a language with inc and jmp?
19:52:39 <ais523> yes, the best assessment of HQ9+ is that it isn't a programming language
19:52:50 <mroman> But no conditional jumps
19:53:55 <int-e> mroman: it depends... might be fun if the increment can overflow into the program counter ;-)
19:55:06 <int-e> (this is inspired by, but different from, the infinite loop in the "Story of Mel")
19:55:29 <ais523> it's entirely possible to have a programming language with no conditional jumps, but data needs to be able to have some effect on something
19:55:31 <ais523> even if it's just other data
19:56:10 <mroman> What if jmp jumps to code[counter/2] if counter is even and code[counter*2] if it is odd.
19:57:31 <ais523> the even/odd differentiation there doesn't even really help
19:57:54 <ais523> that sort of approach is a finite state machine if the addresses don't wrap, or they wrap round the code in the conventional manner
19:58:28 <ais523> you could do something like jumping to the fractional part of the square root of the counter, though (as a proportion into the program), that at least has infinite storage although I'm not convinced you can access it
19:59:07 <mroman> Your program would have to be a fractional
19:59:54 <mroman> One where you can zoom into the space between two instructions and get new instructions somehow?
20:01:17 <ais523> you just run forwards until reaching the next valid instruction
20:01:23 <mroman> Didn't i create a language where space is allocated by increasing values in cells.
20:03:07 <int-e> ais523: That idea is a bit trajical ;-).
20:03:08 <zzo38> Possibly, the amount of increment of instruction pointer will be the rational number, then you can execute instructions between any instructions by get the new instruction but I don't know which get new instruction it is.
20:04:02 <mroman> Aren't there 1D fractionals?
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20:04:51 <int-e> There are things like Cantor sets.
20:05:13 <mroman> Or any bounded function could work
20:05:38 <ais523> cantor sets could be interesting
20:05:58 <mroman> The program is a function f(eip) = instruction
20:06:13 <ais523> your counters could be in ternary, and your operations could be "increment" and "contains a 1 digit?"
20:06:40 <mroman> I.e. sin(x) and you'd map -1,0,1 to specific instructions
20:07:15 <mroman> And eip is a real number
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20:13:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53906&oldid=50354 * Ais523 * (+374) /* Dead link */ new section
20:15:16 <int-e> It would be an RPC, a *real* program counter.
20:16:51 * int-e mutters about UI design
20:18:08 <int-e> this dialog has a button in the lower right corner... usually these things are stuff like Ok/Cancel/Close that get rid of the windo in one way or another... this one is a Help button.
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20:42:24 <mroman> Intel uses esoteric instruction pointer (eip)
20:43:24 <int-e> unfortunately I know that the e is for "extended".
20:43:57 <int-e> However the r in rip eludes me, I suspect it's just "register".
20:45:39 <ais523> int-e: yes, "register"
20:46:07 <ais523> after r9 and friends were added, AMD decided to use the same prefix for the original registers too to show that it was the 64-bit verison
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21:24:28 <mroman> Is the prevalence of obesity in prison wards elevated?
21:24:54 <mroman> I'm watching this undercover in jail documentary
21:26:11 <mroman> And so far it seems that a surprising amount of wards and inmates are obese...
21:26:49 <int-e> I don't know but it's easy to come up with an explanation.
21:27:40 <int-e> first google hit, not the most reliable source: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4429407/prison-obesity-fears-inmates-overweight-lags/
21:33:49 <int-e> anyway, it looks like people believe that this is a problem and are investigating, but there isn't enough data yet to be conclusive (never mind actually identifying causes)
21:34:56 <mroman> Maybe it's just the prevalence of obesity in the US
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21:35:33 <int-e> (there is some redundancy in the title)
21:35:39 <mroman> also it feels like here in EU foreigners are more obese for some reason
21:37:14 <int-e> mroman: theories: - food quality (and amount; one abstract I just read suggested that women may be becoming obese in prison simply because they receive the same amount of food as males); lack of exercise; prison trauma (which food helps getting over)
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21:39:40 <mroman> Prevalence of obesity in foreigners is in fact higher according to statistics.
21:41:12 <int-e> (one factor that I haven't seen discussed is whether prevalence of obesity in criminals differs from the general population (let's say before first incarceration))
21:42:02 <mroman> Diabetes is twice as prevalent in foreigners than locals.
21:42:20 <mroman> Yeah. Maybe it just mimicks the general prevalence.
21:43:26 <mroman> What's the prevalence of obesity by country
21:44:20 <mroman> I know it's highest for island tribes
21:44:43 <mroman> They seem to not be used to modern western food
21:47:43 <mroman> Also how many of them are on psych meds
21:48:03 <mroman> They are notorious for weight gain
21:52:48 <lambdabot> -269653970229347386159395778618353710042696546841345985910145121736599013708...
21:53:19 <oerjan> that does look a bit arbitrary
21:53:59 <lambdabot> -269653970229347386159395778618353710042696546841345985910145121736599013708...
21:54:21 <int-e> > floor(0/0) == -3 * 2^1023
21:54:49 <int-e> (it *is* arbitrary to some degree... NaNs have many representations)
21:55:39 <int-e> floor (0/0) < floor (-1/0)
21:55:42 <int-e> > floor (0/0) < floor (-1/0)
21:56:02 <int-e> below minus infinity
21:56:32 <int-e> > (-1/0) < fromIntegral (floor (-1/0))
21:56:55 <lambdabot> -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
21:56:57 <Taneb> My instinct is that floor(0/0) should be an error
21:57:19 <mroman> > ceiling(-1/0) == ceiling (-2/0)
21:57:36 <int-e> Taneb: it's been a point of contention in the Haskell community :P
21:57:50 <mroman> This might be useful for golfing.
21:58:19 <Taneb> int-e, I think I remember it being discussed somewhere a couple of months ago
21:59:06 <lambdabot> error: Data constructor not in scope: NaNerror:
21:59:06 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope: Infinity
21:59:06 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant variable ‘infinity’ (imported from Data.Number.Natural)
22:00:27 <int-e> The whole Num hierarchy isn't exactly loved; in fact I think we can get to agree a majority of Haskell folks that it is awful. But I think the same folks will never agree on a better successor.
22:00:58 <int-e> hmm, something word order with went wrong there
22:01:26 <mroman> Numbers aren't real anyway. They were invented by psychiatrists.
22:01:40 <HackEgo> yoda:Yoda object-verb dialogue adopts.
22:02:24 <int-e> Okay, I might agree that numbers are imaginary friends. :P
22:03:02 <int-e> But you're really giving psychiatrists too much credit.
22:03:14 <HackEgo> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
22:03:23 <mroman> fungot: are you an imaginary friend?
22:03:23 <fungot> mroman: maybe the w is flipped actually
22:03:37 <int-e> ^8ball are we all imaginary friends?
22:03:50 <int-e> ^8ball are you always this negative?
22:03:59 <mroman> fungot: could you pass a turing test?
22:04:00 <fungot> mroman: the specifiers aren't really that funny, you're not a schweinpenis," you are assumed to have some kind of command, do so
22:04:22 <int-e> wtf, where did it learn that wordf
22:04:32 * boily thwacks the fungot
22:04:33 <fungot> boily: not good either.
22:04:56 * int-e ruffles boily's feathers
22:05:14 <int-e> (or FEATHERS? the CHICKEN tends to be ALL CAPS)
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22:07:26 <int-e> In other news I really like the Catch-22 nature of Puidgemont's situation right now. Heller, and possibly also Kafka, would have been proud.
22:08:36 <Taneb> I need to finish reading Catch-22
22:15:58 <Slereah> Is there a circumstance that makes it so that you can't read catch-22 without having read it first
22:25:41 <ais523> <oerjan> > floor(0/0) ← now I'm curious as to whether that number is finitely or infinitely long
22:26:17 <ais523> I guess finitely long? it seems bizarre to know what the /first/ digit of NaN is
22:27:16 <int-e> I think I answered that question
22:27:18 <int-e> > floor(0/0) == -3 * 2^1023
22:28:46 <oerjan> > ceiling(0/0) == floor(0/0)
22:30:27 <oerjan> ais523: people have started making simplified versions of your levenquine challenge
22:30:33 <int-e> > ceiling (0/0 :: Float) == ceiling (0/0 :: Double)
22:30:51 <oerjan> (which remains unanswered)
22:31:03 <ais523> the original is definitely doable, the problem is golfing it at the same time
22:32:30 <int-e> so... not possible in brainfuck?
22:32:58 <oerjan> brainfuck might be a _teeny_ bit hard.
22:34:00 <int-e> actually this seems to rule out quite a few programming languages... hrm
22:34:01 <oerjan> seeing as all members of the chain need to use . even the simplified versions won't work.
22:35:03 <oerjan> int-e: i _think_ it is possible in haskell, but it requires some sneaky syntax loopholes.
22:35:27 <zzo38> I want to make the database program I mentioned before. Public domain, uses fixed page sizes, with an index using 32-bit numbers as the key to specify which record you want (a record may itself be an index for a "subdirectory", and the keys need not be consecutive; it can be "sparse"). But, I should need to know what to call it. Do you know?
22:35:38 <int-e> ugh, really? I mean ... how do you avoid main= ?
22:35:48 <oerjan> int-e: it doesn't require a full progrma
22:36:09 <oerjan> a function is permitted
22:39:12 <int-e> I guess one of the simplified challenges is to make a quine pair with disjoint character sets?
22:39:38 <int-e> (I made up the term "quine pair", feel free to let me know if there's an established term...)
22:39:54 <oerjan> yep. "mutually exclusive quines" is the name of that
22:40:11 <oerjan> well, the one invented for the challenge
22:41:41 <oerjan> and there's an intermediate challenge which both fit in, where the goal is to minimize the maximal levenshtein distance
22:42:39 <int-e> hrm, wouldn't that just be won by an ordinary quine?
22:42:52 <oerjan> int-e: no, you still need two disjoint ones
22:44:45 <oerjan> a distance of 2 may be a lot easier than 1, because it allows you to quickly move quote marks
22:50:56 <oerjan> on a first look, the challenge doesn't allow you to edit inside comments, which makes those hard to use.
22:53:57 <oerjan> on a second look, there's a ridiculous possible loophole in that
22:55:02 <oerjan> on a third look, that loophole gets somewhat ruined because it requires having a specific character available.
22:58:15 <oerjan> the loophole isn't needed though, and if used to its full extent would almost certainly be considered a new way of cheating... but it takes this specific kind of challenge to make it useful.
22:58:54 <zzo38> I want to make the database program I mentioned before. Public domain, uses fixed page sizes, with an index using 32-bit numbers as the key to specify which record you want (a record may itself be an index for a "subdirectory", and the keys need not be consecutive; it can be "sparse"). But, I should need to know what to call it. Do you know?
22:59:22 * oerjan all mysterious and handwavy hth hth
22:59:33 <oerjan> oops forgot the script ignores /me
22:59:41 <zzo38> (It doesn't actually use a sparse file; pages are allocated only for existing keys though, and free pages if gaps are made by deletion and they haven't been filled up yet)
23:10:22 <int-e> oerjan: hah, does rot13 count as a programming language ;-)
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23:13:45 <zseri> zzo38: Is there a documentation?
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23:18:16 <oerjan> int-e: not by PPCG standards
23:18:18 <zzo38> zseri: No. (When I write them, then it will be, though.)
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23:22:24 <oerjan> int-e: that also arguably breaks the PPCG quine rules
23:22:44 <zzo38> I would need to figure out what to name in order to write them, but, I don't know, do you have the idea about it?
23:23:10 <oerjan> although it's a bit fishy how to apply them, it's clear that the a only encodes itself after a cycle
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23:55:09 <zseri> https://gist.github.com/zserik/fbfdc6ccf4e61e5dfa9a26804c35c0d9