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00:29:14 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54376&oldid=54372 * ZM * (+61)
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00:45:24 <shachaf> Cale: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2002/01/UsingTensorDiagrams.pdf is too good
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01:53:27 <ais523> hmm, what are the best verbs to use for the basic queue operations?
01:53:45 <ais523> I normally use "push" and "shift" because it's what Perl does (and because "pop" is ambiguous with stacks)
01:53:50 <ais523> maybe there's a better option, though
01:53:54 <ais523> I don't like "enqueue"/"dequeue", it's too verbose
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01:59:24 <esowiki> [[I/D machine Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54377&oldid=54375 * Ais523 * (-4) err, actually I need a different initial state for the cyclic tag construction to be easily understandable
02:00:36 <fizzie> There's the receive/send pair, but that can feel too network-y.
02:03:11 <fizzie> C++ std::queue just uses push/pop even though it's a queue, and I don't mind that. (And of course STL sequence containers have the full set of {push,pop}_{front,back}.)
02:04:49 <fizzie> I didn't want to complicate the discussion with that.
02:05:11 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't see that there wasa a discussion above.
02:05:25 <shachaf> I assumed you just said it out of the blue. I guess that's not a good assumption.
02:07:22 <fizzie> I think something used enq/deq, which sound good if you like gratuitous abbreviation.
02:08:21 <shachaf> Hmm, you could use fancy operator overloading in C++.
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02:08:50 <shachaf> Well, what I wanted was q << x and x << q
02:08:56 <shachaf> But I guess you can't do that.
02:14:26 <fizzie> You couldn't get the associativity right to do "x << y << z << q" though.
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02:21:22 <fizzie> Wonder if some people actually do template <typename T> std::ostream& operator>>(const T& x, std::ostream& s) { return s << x; } "for flexibility".
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02:23:09 <wob_jonas> Yeah, as fizzie points out, C++ uses push_back and pop_front
02:23:58 <wob_jonas> You mentioned push and shift, as well as enqueue and dequeue.
02:24:54 <doesthiswork> Ha! I've gotten farther in J, I will soon be master of the array!
02:26:16 <wob_jonas> pop_front and push_back is apparently also what the rust standard library uses, for the std::collections::vec_deque::VecDeque class
02:26:33 <fizzie> There's also the pretty generic add/remove, which is what java.util.Queue does. (Though it also does offer/poll for the non-exception case.)
02:26:51 <wob_jonas> and for the std::collections::linked_list::LinkedList too
02:29:19 <wob_jonas> "<fizzie> There's the receive/send pair, but that can feel too network-y." => wait, I have a list of these. not for the actions, but for names of the sides.
02:29:40 <zzo38> We should require making up new puzzle sets specifically for use with Free Hero Mesh, in order that some free puzzle sets can be distributed with it. (The puzzles do not necessarily have to resemble Hero Heart at all.)
02:29:51 <fizzie> POSIX message queues use send/receive.
02:30:27 <wob_jonas> host / guest; master / slave; server / client; remote / local; passive / active; Alice / Bob; backend / frontend; engine / ?; ? / user; attacker / defender; request / response; produce / consume; implement / specify; provide / require; sock / peer (as in getsockname / getpeername); source / destination (for direction of flow); send / receive (for d
02:30:27 <wob_jonas> irection of flow); female / male (for hardware plugs).
02:30:55 <fizzie> Most of these have also a third word for the "look but don't remove" operation (front, peek, element, head, ...).
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02:37:44 <wob_jonas> You can also use append instead of push. Or you could use arrow operators, of which there are two styles:
02:38:25 <wob_jonas> the C++ style where if v is your queue then (v << x) pushes x and returns the queue, and (v >> x) pops into x and returns the queue;
02:38:52 <wob_jonas> and the Golang style where IIRC (v <- x) pushes x, and (<- v) pops an element and returns it, but I'm not sure
02:39:56 <esowiki> [[I/D machine Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54378&oldid=54377 * Ais523 * (+7449) /* Compiling cyclic tag to ErrorBucket */ complete the proof
02:40:50 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54379&oldid=54358 * Ais523 * (-190) /* Computational class */ now proven
02:42:10 <ais523> in a way that hopefully people but me can understand
02:42:32 <ais523> (actually I'd made a mistake in my previous proof but it was easily fixed)
02:44:03 <wob_jonas> Yes, I just checked, the Golang syntax is indeed what I said above
02:46:46 <wob_jonas> apparently python arrays use append and remove
02:48:03 <wob_jonas> put and get is another possibility
02:52:30 <zzo38> In order to implement a puzzle game on Free Hero Mesh, the rules must be followed: It must be played on a 2D rectangular grid with neither dimension greater than 64. It must be mathematically considered as a pure function taking the current state and a key code, and the result is either the new state, or a win, or a loss. The number of commands must be not too much.
02:54:48 <HackEgo> Long is the Chinese word for dragon.
03:01:03 <fizzie> Python lists use "append" to add to the end, and don't provide a no-argument "remove first item", possibly because it's not O(1). (There's ".pop(0)" if you really want.)
03:01:37 <wob_jonas> Recapping. In perl: push(@v,$x); $x=pop@v; In ruby: v.push(v); x=v.shift; # append works instead of push
03:01:55 <fizzie> Python's collections.deque uses append, appendleft, pop, popleft for the operations C++ calls push_back, push_front, pop_back and pop_front, respectively.
03:03:13 <wob_jonas> In C++: v.push_back(x); x=v.front(), v.pop_front(); In golang: v<-x; x = <-v;
03:04:40 <wob_jonas> In rust: v.push_back(x); x = v.pop_front().unwrap();
03:05:30 <wob_jonas> For network stuff like the unix socket api, send and recv are used. Apparently nobody likes enqueue and dequeue.
03:05:54 <fizzie> Your Ruby example names the methods for Array, which I don't think is really fair.
03:05:56 <wob_jonas> Read and write also works for unix files and sockets.
03:05:57 <fizzie> There is a dedicated Queue class in Ruby core, and that one uses push (aliases enq and operator <<) and pop (aliases deq and shift).
03:06:25 <fizzie> I think it was Ruby where I got the cute "enq" and "deq" from.
03:06:27 <zzo38> In JavaScript: v.push(x); x=v.shift(); It is similar to the examine with Ruby except you need parentheses after "shift". (Also you wrote "v.push(v)" and I thought it is supposed to be "v.push(x)" like I have?)
03:06:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, it's suppsed to be v.push(x) in ruby
03:07:13 <fizzie> I'll push myself to the sleep queue, and won't shift out until later, bye.
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03:54:44 <zzo38> The only temperature of my computer that I can see with Linux is the temperature for te hard drive. (There are no drivers for the other temperature sensor, although the CMOS setting menu will display it.)
03:58:35 <zzo38> But I don't know what temperature should be considered reasonable?
04:00:19 <moony> zzo38, definitely not the 90c my laptop reaches 2/7
04:02:36 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, but that only is what temperature is not reasonable, and does not indicate which one is reasonable.
04:03:29 <moony> also, it sometimes reaches 100c. So uh
04:03:36 <moony> dont buy HP laptops, they have shit cooling
04:10:37 <zzo38> OK. (Although I am not using a laptop computer anyways)
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04:39:13 <zzo38> Finally, now Free Hero Mesh can read class codes from .MB files.
04:42:40 <zzo38> (It still does not include the ability to execute them, although it can convert them into its own format.)
04:48:21 <zzo38> (The .MB file stores compiled byte code, and then it is decompiled every time you want to edit it. Free Hero Mesh stores the source code so that you can format it as you wish, and it works differently too. The byte code is RPN, although the source language used by EKS isn't; Free Hero Mesh uses a RPN format source language too though, since it is easier to convert and implement this way.)
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05:07:12 <zzo38> Yes. I made up a Fossil repository of what I have so far (which isn't much, yet)
05:07:38 <zzo38> The Fossil repository is: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/
05:12:48 <zzo38> You can write other comments, complaints, questions, suggestions, etc.
05:13:20 <ais523> huh, I really like the proof that Chaitin's constant is normal
05:14:09 <ais523> the argument is that knowing the first n bits of Chaitin's constant allows you to solve halting problems of programs whose length is at most n bits
05:14:18 <ais523> and this solver has some fixed, finite length
05:14:55 <ais523> now, suppose Chaitin's constant is compressible; you can then take a compressed representation + decompressor + solver and the resulting program will be able to solve its own halting problem, which is impossible
05:15:27 <ais523> thus, Chaitin's constant must be incompressible; but if it wasn't normal, you could make use of the bias to come up with a working compression scheme
05:16:34 <zzo38> Yes, I like that too, it look like good to me
05:18:06 <zzo38> (Although I am not sure that maybe there might be a few steps missing?)
05:19:05 <zzo38> (I will look up again Chaitin's constant on Wikipedia; maybe I forgot something else)
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05:19:34 <ais523> I'm not sure it's valid; what concerns me is that the proof kind-of assumes that you know what Chaitin's constant /is/ (at least to that length), but by definition it's impossible to calculate
05:21:59 <zzo38> It does look to me probably a few steps missing
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05:41:26 <moony> I/D still gets me confused
05:52:46 <ais523> does the proof page help? at least slightly?
05:53:24 <ais523> doing the 3* proof helped me understand this one
05:53:41 <ais523> you can think of the language as being vaguely similar to 3* with the difference that you have no easy way to get back to zero
05:54:09 <ais523> so you need to maintain a NULL at the end of each of your pointer chains so that you can get back to 0 just by spamming dereferences
05:54:28 <ais523> that means that when you write a pointer, you write it pointing slightly off-centre, then mutate it just before you read it
05:54:45 <ais523> hmm, somehow I doubt this explanation is helping much
05:57:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54380&oldid=54362 * Ais523 * (+668) r to Keymaker
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06:12:23 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54381&oldid=54379 * Ais523 * (+291) let's give this a trivial impl just so it's Implemented; it's pretty easy to implement, after all
06:13:02 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54382&oldid=54381 * Ais523 * (-2) /* RAM0 */ be a bit clearer about the interpreter/compiler distinction
06:35:29 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54383&oldid=54365 * Sane theinsane * (+40)
06:44:23 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54384&oldid=54383 * Sane theinsane * (+1976)
06:53:26 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54385&oldid=54384 * Sane theinsane * (+238)
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06:57:53 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54386&oldid=54385 * Sane theinsane * (-2121)
06:58:59 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54387&oldid=54386 * Sane theinsane * (+1)
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07:26:39 <esowiki> [[NTFJ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54388 * Conor O'Brien * (+3372) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=NTFJ |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Conor O'Brien]] |year=[[:Category:2016]] |memsys=stack-based |class=:Category:Unknown computational class|..."
07:27:29 <esowiki> [[NTFJ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54389&oldid=54388 * Conor O'Brien * (+45)
07:27:53 <esowiki> [[NTFJ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54390&oldid=54389 * Conor O'Brien * (+1) typo fix
07:43:23 <esowiki> [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54391&oldid=54012 * Conor O'Brien * (+885) /* Languages I have made */ add more languages
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07:44:22 <esowiki> [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54392&oldid=54391 * Conor O'Brien * (-53)
09:40:28 <esowiki> [[MITLML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54393&oldid=54327 * Singingbanana * (+6)
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12:55:54 <fungot> boily: might have something like " eof?") and i don't have
12:56:07 <boily> fungot: no EOF on your nose?
12:56:07 <fungot> boily: yacc is used in playstation to read fake games too with java.))
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12:56:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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16:47:55 <HackEgo> GautamS_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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19:19:34 <danil> (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
19:26:08 <GautamS> my faith in esoteric languages came after i saw a C to brainfuck compiler
19:26:14 <GautamS> the pinnacle of the human race
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19:32:19 <fizzie> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
19:32:19 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
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21:25:03 <HackEgo> 1/2:earth//Topologically speaking, the Earth has been a coffee mug ever since that hole to China was dug. \ roujo's relevant info//That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of. \ hallucination//You are just imagining this wi
21:25:05 <HackEgo> 2/2:sdom entry. \ hand injuries//Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html \ wfraatw//A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
21:30:29 <esowiki> [[I/D machine Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54394&oldid=54378 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Compiling ErrorBucket to the I/D machine */ fix an instance of the old startup routine
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21:32:59 <oerjan> . o O ( is that recursion really well-founded )
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21:37:39 <danil> thanks! I wanted to use fungot!
21:37:39 <fungot> danil: how do you dispatch on the types of variables?
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21:39:29 <boily> helløœrjan. all recursion is well founded; some may take a little bit more resources to compute.
21:45:15 <oerjan> . o O ( did danil fail fungot's test like in the holy grail )
21:45:16 <fungot> oerjan: why not? oh i see. i generally do, too. true is xy.x, false is tc if the commands: and can take a few.
21:46:26 <oerjan> i suspect true is not tc, although one never knows with GNU programs.
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21:59:01 <wob_jonas> oerjan: oh yes, I love that scene. "It can't be a gold cup." takes cup that is gold-plated from the inside "This is a carpenter's cup."
21:59:25 <wob_jonas> true example for http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodHomely
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22:04:15 <oerjan> wob_jonas: not that holy grail
22:04:55 <wob_jonas> oh, you mean like the "what's your favourite color?" one?
22:05:17 <wob_jonas> but he would have said "Aaaaargh!" rather than "Erm?..." if he failed that
22:15:35 <boily> will they be back?
22:27:32 <boily> them who got scared by the fungot.
22:27:33 <fungot> boily: fnord/ fnord).) there is no shift within it is simply cps w/ certain reductions performed
22:27:37 <boily> fungot: fnord fnord.
22:27:37 <fungot> boily: but one i can go back, there are
22:28:05 <fungot> wob_jonas: it included very sophisticated interactive evaluation debugging facilities, undo dwim features fnord, a perl script
22:30:10 <fizzie> fungot: Stop scaring people, it's not nice.
22:30:11 <fungot> fizzie: where is lambda calculus is a part. in that time :p :p :p) ( although, it might
22:30:16 <zzo38> Can you report more income (including illegal income) on your taxes than you actually have?
22:33:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't think you're allowed to do that, but call 1819 from inlands or +3612509500 from abroad on weekdays during the day if you want to know more definitely, or contact and pay a lawyer if you want to know for sure enough that there's a warranty on it.
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22:39:06 <boily> . o O ( zero one one eight nine nine nine ♪ )
22:40:32 <wob_jonas> meh, these numbers change once every few years. the last one was +3640424242, but then the whole +3640 namespace got disassembled, and every important organization got new numbers completely at random so you have to look them up individually,
22:41:06 <wob_jonas> and half of them are short numbers like this 1819 one, and for short numbers you can't easily tell what the equivalent is to dial from abroad or what the costing is without looking those info up
22:41:23 <wob_jonas> I think dismantling the +3640 namespace was a horrible decision
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23:29:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hanss314 * New user account
23:37:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54395&oldid=54364 * Hanss314 * (+251) /* Introductions */
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23:53:20 <esowiki> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54396&oldid=45755 * B jonas * (+28) should really also have an example that isn't created by ais523
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23:54:09 <esowiki> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54397&oldid=54396 * B jonas * (+19) /* Examples */
23:55:14 <esowiki> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54398&oldid=54397 * B jonas * (-10) /* Examples */