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00:20:57 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54399 * Hanss314 * (+944) Add TLOWScript
00:22:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54400&oldid=54366 * Hanss314 * (+17) /* T */
00:23:05 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54401&oldid=54399 * Hanss314 * (+0)
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00:25:43 <ais523> has anyone had more thoughts of the I/D machine? or has the initial enthusiasm worn off?
00:26:01 <ais523> I've been wondering if it's good for proving things TC but few languages seem to have the right primitives
00:26:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, I'm still enthusiastic about the M:tG proof
00:28:26 <ais523> I'm thinking about getting back to it, the I/D machine was a bit of an abstraction
00:28:47 <ais523> I've already written a couple of background pages about it but may want to throw them out and start again, I think I'm aiming at the wrong level of abstraction for the readers I want
00:28:56 <ais523> but they helped me to get my thoughts in order (and find the tournament rules issue)
00:29:26 <wob_jonas> do you mean the comprehensive rules problem about the infinite loops?
00:33:12 <moony> I/D is actually quite good for virtual machines
00:33:26 <ais523> that say you aren't allowed to continue a loop without knowledge of the iterations and expected end state
00:36:15 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54402&oldid=54401 * Hanss314 * (+115)
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00:45:20 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/I/D_machine
00:46:11 <ais523> or as a one line summary: a language with data pointer (initially 0) and unbounded RAM of unbounded elements (initially all 0) and two commands; I increments the target of the data pointer, D assigns the value in the data pointer's target back to the data pointer; the program repeats forever in an implicit loop
00:46:35 <ais523> I love that you can fully specify it in one line of IRC
00:49:19 <ais523> the winner for the shortest specification may go to The Waterfall Model, which can be fully specified in 4 bytes of [[e:Jelly] : +"Ṃẞ (Jelly uses an encoding where Ṃ and ẞ are each single bytes)
00:49:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: but doesn't that cheat by not including the loop?
00:49:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: the Jelly impl? that's what the ß (or is it ẞ) means
00:50:25 <ais523> "run the main program recursively", so putting it at the end of the program gives you an infinite loop via tail-recursion
00:50:37 <ais523> looking at this I'm very suspicious I've used the wrong case of ß, I'll have to fix that at some point
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00:51:11 <ais523> the other commands are + meaning "add", " meaning "corresponding elements", and Ṃ meaning "minimum"
00:51:52 <wob_jonas> and it takes minimum of rows by comparing them lexicographically?
00:52:02 <ais523> so only the first element actually gets compared
00:52:48 <ais523> in this case, the "corresponding elements" are of the minimum and of the full matrix
00:53:04 <ais523> so the first element of the minimum gets added to the first row of the matrix, the second element of the minimum to the second row of the matrix, and so on
00:53:28 <ais523> golfing languages are great, they just give you a big mix of nouns and verbs and adjectives and the like
00:53:43 <ais523> then you string them together and it figures out what you mean from context (with rules that are objectively defined but often quite complex)
00:54:07 <wob_jonas> not all golfing languages are like that, but yeah
00:54:31 <ais523> looks like it is ß that should be used
00:54:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, others have entirely meaning sets for different contexts, Japt for example
00:54:49 <ais523> I don't like that as much though
00:54:57 <ais523> a good golfing language is like a good natural language
00:55:30 <ais523> like, the code determines the context of any particular command via running the code up to it
00:55:40 <ais523> then what it does depends on the context and the various possible meanings don't need to be correlated at all
00:56:59 <oerjan> . o O ( garden path programming )
00:58:05 <ais523> so, for example, f in Japt will act as an array intersection operation if run on an array (with a few other options), but if you give it a number instead, it'll do a floor operation
00:58:08 <ais523> those have nothing in common
00:59:31 <int-e> . o O ( the result will never be larger than the input(s) )
01:00:11 <ais523> in Jelly, Ḟ will floor a number or floor every element of an array; f will take the intersection of arrays, and treat numbers in its argument as an array of the integers from 1 to the number inclusive
01:00:27 <zzo38> A short AWK program to change multiple blank lines into a single blank line: x+(x=NF)
01:01:00 <ais523> in sed you could write it as /^$/d I think
01:01:18 <ais523> that changes multiple newlines into a single newline
01:01:22 <ais523> which is a different operation
01:03:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: will that Jelly program implementing Waterfall use bignums? because I don't think fixed sized numbers are enough to make Waterfall reasonably usable, with the exponential slowdown
01:04:02 <ais523> also that language is exponentially slower than Waterfall
01:04:15 <ais523> (Jelly uses bignums by default; it has a variant called M which uses computable reals)
01:04:57 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that deletes blank lines, which is different to what I wrote. In sed if there is a command to match a regular expression across multiple lines then you can do what I mentioned
01:05:13 <wob_jonas> I mean, there's already very few implementations that can do arithmetic on arbitrary algebraic numbers
01:05:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: can you do it in sed with a comma thingy?
01:05:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: there are drop-in computable reals libraries for many languages
01:06:28 <ais523> although they tend to struggle when comparing them, if two computable reals are actually equal then a comparison between them tends to cause an infinite loop
01:06:46 <ais523> unless they're known to be ints or rationals or something similarly easy to compare
01:08:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That doesn't work (I tried it).
01:08:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, but something like that maybe? with an added a command or something
01:09:39 <zzo38> I am not that good at it either, but I do know awk, which is why, I wrote the program in awk instead.
01:10:01 <wob_jonas> that expression is applied as a condition for an implicit print, right?
01:10:18 <zzo38> Yes it is applied as a condition for an inplicit print.
01:36:30 <wob_jonas> anyway, I still say that the slow play stuff doesn't matter, the opponent just has to call a judge if he can't figure out how the loop works
01:37:36 <fizzie> `` printf "foo\nbar\n\nbaz\n\n\n\nquux\n" | sed -e 's/^$/x/;tx;x;s/.*x.*//;Ty;p;:y;x;p;d;:x;H;d'
01:37:37 <HackEgo> foo \ bar \ \ baz \ \ quux
01:38:07 <fizzie> It really should be a lot simpler, but for some reason the simpler things weren't working. sed can be a little subtle when it comes to newlines.
01:39:40 <wob_jonas> how about tr \\n: :\\n | sed 's/:::*/::/ | tr \\n: :\\n
01:39:53 <wob_jonas> tr \\n: :\\n | sed s/:::*/::/ | tr \\n: :\\n
01:40:11 <wob_jonas> but the regex needs to be a bit more complicated if you want to accept lines with only whitespace as blanks
01:40:24 <wob_jonas> and I should really escape that star
01:40:28 <wob_jonas> tr \\n: :\\n | sed s/:::\*/::/ | tr \\n: :\\n
01:42:24 <fizzie> Sounds plausible, and pretty clever.
01:42:37 <fizzie> My sed thing basically appends a 'x' marker to the hold space on every empty line, and on non-empty lines prints out an extra newline before the original contents.
01:42:52 <fizzie> (Iff there's an 'x' in the hold space, that is.)
01:43:46 <fizzie> `` printf "foo\nbar\n\nbaz\n\n\n\nquux\n" | tr '\n:' ':\n' | sed 's/:::*/::/g' | tr '\n:' ':\n'
01:43:47 <HackEgo> foo \ bar \ \ baz \ \ quux
01:44:58 <fizzie> (I wanted it to just copy append empty lines to the hold space and then s/\n\n*/\n/ the hold space before prepending it, but I think the hold space operations do some implicit newlining, or something.)
01:45:23 <wob_jonas> sed is a terrible programming language
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02:04:01 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54403&oldid=54402 * Hanss314 * (+27)
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04:58:10 <esowiki> [[Incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54404&oldid=51822 * Ais523 * (+628) /* Computational class */ explain the TCness proof (both that the pretty-print half is on the talk page, and that the translation from slightly restricted Minsky machines is in the repo; also mentoin the TAFMl1 connection)
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07:00:44 <zzo38> I did this in a C program in order to indent output lines: printf("\n%*s",x,""); How common is such a thing in a C code?
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07:18:49 <fungot> danil: it should not be difficult to integrate cml a distributed message-passing device.
07:19:09 <danil> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
07:19:32 <danil> what over bots are here?
07:22:38 <zzo38> There is also lambdabot and HackEgo
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07:42:53 <zzo38> Lambdabot implements Haskell and needs > before the Haskell codes (although there are other commands too, such as weather reports).
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07:46:10 <danil> oh. What about HackEgo?
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07:55:53 <zzo38> :t head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard y)).zip[0..].nub.sort
07:57:28 <zzo38> :t head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort
07:57:30 <lambdabot> (Ord c, Enum c, Num c) => [c] -> c
07:58:10 <zzo38> > ( head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort ) [9,0,5,3,6,0,1,2,2,3,4]
07:58:42 <zzo38> > ( head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort ) [3,7,13,15,0,1,0]
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08:02:53 <zzo38> danil: HackEgo has many things
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08:04:33 <zzo38> :t fst.head.filter(uncurry(/=)).zip[0..].nub.sort
08:04:36 <lambdabot> (Ord b, Enum b, Num b) => [b] -> b
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08:05:35 <zzo38> danil: HackEgo runs UNIX commands including whatever programs are put in.
08:05:46 -!- danil has joined.
08:05:49 <zzo38> danil: HackEgo runs UNIX commands including whatever programs are put in.
08:05:55 <zzo38> Why you quit and reenter so many times?
08:06:25 <danil> I have a laptop whoes screen falls. So everytime i log out.
08:06:44 <danil> My laptop suspends when screen shut.
08:07:15 <zzo38> O, well, perhaps you should fix that (perhaps by putting something to hold it up, or changing the setting so that it does not suspend)
08:07:51 <danil> Good idea! Thank you.
08:09:29 <zzo38> Use the prefix `` or ``` (the difference is that ``` uses the C locale, but `` uses Unicode locale)
08:10:22 <HackEgo> cat: hi: No such file or directory
08:10:56 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
08:11:03 <zzo38> There is also a webpage with a list of all of the files
08:12:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``ls: not found
08:12:07 <zzo38> The command won't persist so cd won't help if used by itself
08:12:24 <zzo38> See the web page at: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/
08:12:45 <zzo38> If you only want to view the files rather than execute them, you can look there.
08:13:23 <danil> I just had a idea for a language!
08:16:09 <danil> I have a accumulator and a deliverer. They are called accumulator and shipping port. You need to take a amount of objects from the deliverer and put them into the accumulator. PS: there are infinity accumulators, and all of 'em can act as deliverers
08:18:04 <danil> So, it can act as a 'tape'! Or, if we add a limit to allow only 1 or no objects to be delivered, it is a Turing-complete thing!
08:19:24 <danil> How do I implement that?
08:20:12 <danil> Oh, here is a example: 210210210. 0 means to come back.
08:24:01 <fungot> danil: that doesn't necessarily have to study up on my window sill
08:29:36 <danil> ^ul (Underload!)S()s
08:29:36 <fungot> Underload! ...bad insn!
08:30:12 <danil> > ( head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort ) [3,7,13,15,0,0]
08:31:20 <zzo38> You can write other Haskell codes too; that is not the only possibility
08:32:08 <danil> Did you like my idea?
08:32:50 <zzo38> I don't know, but you can add it into esolang wiki, and then you can see.
08:33:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Can you explain the accounting equation?
08:33:17 <shachaf> Is BAL covariant and FSV contravariant?
08:34:22 <danil> ?What is the accounting equation?
08:34:45 <danil> ermmmmmmmm.....................................................................................................................................................................................
08:36:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I would think so. <BAL| is constant and |FSV> can vary, but only the way that remains orthogonal to <BAL|.
08:37:21 <zzo38> danil: Wikipedia has a article about accounting equation (although not my version of it).
08:38:19 <zzo38> shachaf: It works same like the ordinary accounting equation, but with Dirac notation.
08:38:37 <zzo38> shachaf: FSV is the current "financial state vector".
08:39:03 <danil> Why are you talking about money on #esoteric?
08:39:15 <shachaf> Do you like index notation? BAL_i FSV^i = 0
08:39:41 <shachaf> What is a financial state vector? And what is BAL?
08:40:13 <zzo38> You could write it that way, but Dirac notation look like it works better in this case.
08:41:00 <danil> Just to clarify, what is Dirac notation?
08:42:19 <zzo38> Dirac notation is also described in Wikipedia, they could probably explain better than I do
08:43:52 <danil> I already looked. It started talking about Bra-ket notation!!!!! And im not a physicist!
08:44:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Financial state vector is all of the accounts, like you normally do in accounting. "BAL" is short for "balance" and is the one it must be balanced with.
08:44:53 <zzo38> danil: I am not a physicist either (nor am I an accountant).
08:45:28 <danil> Buts its about Quantum, isnt it?
08:46:13 <zzo38> Dirac notation is commonly used for quantum physics, although I am treating it here just as a mathematical notation.
08:46:23 <zzo38> (because that is what it is)
08:48:16 <danil> I just read the Russian Wikipedia page and understood it. But what is Hilbert space?
08:48:33 <zzo38> You may also wonder why I came up with this kind of accounting equation. Well, once at school in accounting class I was finished the work so was trying to think of other things, such as how to use complex numbers in accounting. I concluded that was impossible, but found that matrix mathematics can be used, so I invented matrix accounting.
08:50:31 <zzo38> I did; what part are you asking specifically?
08:53:25 <danil> Lets make a accounting-specific esolang! (Well, Excel is here but...)
08:54:59 <zzo38> OK, you don't have to try, then.
08:55:49 <HackEgo> 191) <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
08:56:23 <Taneb> `quote experimenting with clients
08:56:24 <HackEgo> 432) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
08:56:43 <Taneb> I've got two IRC clients pointing at the same bouncer on the same computer now
08:58:16 <Taneb> This is going to be confusing
08:58:43 <danil> lambda 1 2 3. s(2+3)= simple de-bruijn lambda calculus with typed elements.
08:59:20 <danil> ^ul (1)S(0)S(1)S(1+2+3+4+5)
08:59:40 <danil> ^ul (1)S(0)S(1)S(1+2+3+4+5)S
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09:10:50 <HackEgo> 701) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
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09:14:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: QUOTE: not found
09:14:22 <HackEgo> 763) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
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10:05:01 <avacaso> ^ul (89898989898989899899898989)S
10:05:01 <fungot> 89898989898989899899898989
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10:14:29 <lambdabot> LOWI 190950Z 06004KT 020V100 7000 -SN FEW008 SCT012 BKN025 M02/M04 Q1004 R08/29//95 TEMPO 4000 BR
10:39:58 <Lymia> Today I learned that one of my dependencies is attempting to use a non-zero terminated Rust string as a zero-terminated C string
11:03:58 <Taneb> Lymia: that sounds unfortunate
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12:19:30 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54405&oldid=54142 * Singingbanana * (+74)
12:20:09 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54406&oldid=54405 * Singingbanana * (-1)
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12:49:00 <dftgf> ^ul (0)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
12:49:00 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
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12:49:51 <dftgf> (^^:^^^:^^^^:^^^^^)S
12:50:15 <dftgf> ^ul (^^:^^:^^^:^^^^)S
12:51:08 <dftgf> (^:^^:^^^) ()~(((())~a
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12:51:46 <dftgf> ^ul (^:^^:^^^^)()~(((())~a
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13:05:14 <fizzie> The quinest of languages.
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13:24:39 <fungot> dftgf: choosing " left if it's tails" produces exactly the same problem ( having two fnord names for all the four times... no idea what the number is
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13:56:30 <esowiki> [[Domino]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54407 * Singingbanana * (+429) Created page with "Domino is a Turing complete programming language based on dominoes. ====Examples==== A or gate: <pre> | | | | | | | | | </pre> A XOR: <pre> | | | | - - <..."
13:57:13 <esowiki> [[Domino]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54408&oldid=54407 * Singingbanana * (-3) Deleted random " Sign.
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15:41:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: printing spaces with printf width, I think that's normal and other people do that too
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15:52:56 * APic just had moar to do with C than with C++ in his Life
15:53:10 <APic> If i used C++ moar i would probably learn to love it as well. ☺
15:53:11 <zzo38> I think some of the system logs (auth.log, syslog, kern.log) are written too often, what should be done about that?
15:53:28 <APic> zzo38: Look at Your syslogd or Clone?
15:53:36 * APic thinks nowadays evil systemd even does most of the Logging ☹
15:55:13 <wob_jonas> APic: there's nothing wrong with that. C is fine for some things. Even if there's a lot I don't understand about it.
15:55:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: change the configuration of your syslogd
15:58:58 <zzo38> I looked in dmesg and found the message "sr0: CDROM not ready. Make sure there is a disc in the drive." several times even though I am not trying to use the CDROM, as well as a message that says "sd 3:0:0:0: [sda] Add. Sense: Unrecovered read error - auto reallocate failed". Nevertheless the computer seems to work. Why are these error messages in there?
15:59:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe some process is trying to use sr0 even though you don't?
16:00:03 <wob_jonas> that second message about sda is more worrysome
16:00:15 <wob_jonas> is sda a hard disk you have data on?
16:01:01 <wob_jonas> your disk or disk controller might be dying. obviously that's unpredictable, it could die in a minute or last for years.
16:01:17 <wob_jonas> but I'm always worried if I see that kind of IO error message about a hard disk
16:01:32 <wob_jonas> (not when I see it for a removable media like a floppy or CD, there it's normal)
16:02:01 <wob_jonas> (the floppy or CD can get unusable too, but a hard disk costs more than a hundred times as much as a floppy or CD)
16:04:17 <zzo38> Yes it is a hard disk, although smartctl does not report any problem with any SMART attributes. It reports temperature as 29, but I do not know what temperature should be proper.
16:04:17 <wob_jonas> the CDROM message is irrelevant, I'd ignore it unless you have other problems with the optical drive near the same time
16:04:38 <wob_jonas> temperature 29? what is that measured in? degrees celsius?
16:05:11 <zzo38> I think it is Celsius
16:05:46 <zzo38> (It says "Temperature_Celsius")
16:05:46 <APic> wob_jonas: Yes, for Example the Linux-Kernel would probably suck if written in C++
16:05:56 <APic> Would depend on what Libraries You include
16:06:07 <APic> The Kernel probably will not have the normal stdlibs
16:06:19 <APic> And SymbianOS is not _that_ bad either
16:06:25 <APic> Being fully C++
16:06:32 <wob_jonas> APic: that's a matter of an age old debate, and, in any case, the kernel is already written in a really strange dialect of C, so if it were written in C++, then it would be written in a strange dialect of C++ too
16:06:45 <APic> But i still liked very much when Nokia released the OpenC-Stuffs for the E90 back then
16:06:58 <APic> Where You could do Unix-C-Stuffs like i was used to
16:06:59 <wob_jonas> I don't do kernel programming anyway, and I have no problem with some userland programs or libraries being written in C either
16:07:05 <wob_jonas> I'm not doing C++ because I hate C or anything
16:07:18 <APic> Hate is generelly a bad Feeling
16:07:23 <wob_jonas> I'm using C++ because it's a great tool and I can accomplish a lot with it, including at work
16:07:33 <wob_jonas> oh, I do have hate. it's just not directed at C
16:09:30 <zzo38> Do you know what temperature is reasonable for the hard drive? (It says 29 under VALUE, and 50 under WORST, and 0 under THRESH)
16:10:27 <wob_jonas> I'm not a hardware guy, so I don't really know, but I think anything between 10 and 50 degrees celsius is definitely fine, anything above 100 degrees celsius is bad, and for the rest I have no idea
16:11:07 <wob_jonas> as long as you make sure to occasionally vacuum the dust accumulated in the computer
16:12:52 <zzo38> I do not have a special vacuum cleaner for use with the computer (I have been trying to acquire one).
16:14:28 <wob_jonas> You don't need a special vacuum cleaner. An ordinary vacuum cleaner mostly works, except possibly for the cooling grills and fans. For there, a vacuum cleaner doesn't help, but you might use either compressed air cylinders or an electric compressed air blower.
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16:17:31 <zzo38> OK, although I have been told that a special vacuum cleaner is required
16:19:03 <APic> 190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 070 001 000 Old_age Always - 30 (Min/Max 12/30)
16:19:06 <APic> 194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 069 049 000 Old_age Always - 31 (Min/Max 12/36)
16:19:41 <APic> The other Harddisk does not seem to deliver that Information to SMART
16:20:46 <zzo38> What I have read is that Seagate stores the actual temperature in VALUE and WORST on attribute 194 (rather than the normalized value like it is supposed to do), and it does not have attribute 190
16:25:32 <wob_jonas> Listen to hardware guys you trust, not me. I'm not good at hardware, my advice there is worthless.
16:26:19 <zzo38> OK, but I don't know any hardware guys
16:27:15 <Taneb> wob_jonas: a few years ago one of my friends was horrified to discover that a) I put together my own PC, and B) I somehow was using far fewer screws than should be possible
16:27:28 <Taneb> (this was after my graphics card fell out)
16:27:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's easier if you work in CS and you have coworkers who do hardware.
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16:28:01 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
16:28:26 <wob_jonas> hmm. screwless computers aren't listed there
16:28:34 <HackEgo> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
16:28:45 <HackEgo> Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders.
16:28:55 <HackEgo> Cognac is named for its strong cognitive effects. Taneb invented it, then somehow managed to keep it off the illegal drugs list.
16:29:17 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/hypo*: No such file or directory
16:29:34 <HackEgo> wisdom/hyperbolic geometry wisdom/hyperbolic group
16:29:37 <zzo38> Also note that only 9% of the file system is in use.
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17:05:56 <zzo38> I also lack suitable backup media. I have a DVD writer drive but it does not work due to dust.
17:06:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you can buy USB-connected DVD writers for cheap these days, or you can buy an USB3 external rack for SATA hard disks and buy multiple large hard disks
17:07:29 <wob_jonas> this applies for home settings, not for businesses
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17:09:03 <zzo38> (I do have blank DVDs.)
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17:13:52 <zzo38> I also don't know what method should be used to make backups. What commands for backups are available on Linux?
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17:15:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I usually just bring my home machine to single user so barely any process runs and I can get a consistent snapshot of the file system state without anything trying to change it, then use a variant of this script to make tarballs http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=922051
17:15:57 <wob_jonas> there are all sorts of more sophisticated methods, but I don't bother
17:16:31 <wob_jonas> except that if you have some really important files, like the stereotypical thesis you're writing or thesis your spouse is writing, then make copies of those often and distribute copies everywhere
17:18:27 <zzo38> I do not really have anywhere to distribute copies, although many of my files are available for public download
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17:19:05 <wob_jonas> yeah, there's a famous quote on that
17:19:23 <zzo38> What famous quote?
17:19:39 <wob_jonas> Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;) – Linus Torvalds http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.3.91.960720095713.20645F-100000%40linux.cs.Helsinki.FI
17:21:33 <zzo38> I do not have a tape anyways. But, anyone who wishes to mirror some of my files may do so
17:21:48 <zzo38> (That is, the ones that are public)
17:22:01 <wob_jonas> yes, that quote is from lots of years ago when hard disks were small and there were no home CD writers
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17:36:53 <zzo38> What version of perl do you need?
17:40:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that program was published in 2011, so perl 5.14 should definitely be enough, but I'd guess perl 5.10 might work too.
17:40:31 <wob_jonas> and although it isn't mentioned here, I later started to compress the tarballs with 7z instead of gzip
17:41:26 <wob_jonas> but be careful, I don't really use the best backup practices
17:41:45 <wob_jonas> it might be better to ask someone more careful with this stuff
17:42:25 <zzo38> Although 7-Zip already includes the list of files anyways, so then I wouldn't know why you will also need tar?
17:42:52 <wob_jonas> 7-zip doesn't save unix attributes like file owner and group and permissions and symlinks
17:43:01 <wob_jonas> I need to save those for a full system backup
17:43:32 <zzo38> Yes, I should need to save permissions and symlinks
17:43:49 <wob_jonas> also tar recognizes hard links when you archive all the fifty hard links to the git binary that git installs
17:44:05 <wob_jonas> it doesn't recognize them when they're in separate archives, so the backup is a bit lossy that way
17:46:50 <wob_jonas> also, I make the backup from a non-recursive bind mount of the root file system, so that other mounts (including the one that covers the bootstrap files in /dev etc) don't distract the backup
17:48:25 <wob_jonas> I believe on if you want a working full backup of Linux, the device file /dev/console is important, it can be used before the devtmpfs is mounted over /dev , although this applies only if you're not using an initrd, which is getting rare these days
17:48:43 <wob_jonas> still, it's better to back up the files that are there in /dev rather than not back them up
17:49:35 <zzo38> But some of them are devices is it possible to back up such files? And, what is a bind mount?
17:56:08 <wob_jonas> For the devices, you just back up the meta-information stored on the file system, not the actual device, as in what device /dev/null and /dev/zero and /dev/console and /dev/fd0 etc refer to, not the actual contents of those devices. tar won't try to read the contents of the device files, just like how it doesn't try to read what a symlink points to
17:57:11 <wob_jonas> A bind mount is a somewhat modern linux feature (although other unixes have similar) where you create a mount that isn't backed by a file system on a device, but just reflects (a subdirectory on) an existing mount in a different place on the file system. See the --bind option in man mount
17:58:39 <wob_jonas> So eg. I create a bind mount with (mount --bind / /mnt/safe/root) then /mnt/safe/root/bin/sh will point to effectively the same file as /bin/sh , but this is not recursive, so if I have another file system mounted under /mnt/safe/kond then /mnt/safe/root/mnt/safe/kond will show the directory on the root file system, not the other file system that's
17:59:10 <wob_jonas> There's also a recursive bind mount with the mount --rbind option that does reflect the other mounts, but that's not what I want here.
17:59:34 <wob_jonas> Obviously if you have data on multiple file systems, then you may want to back those up too.
18:02:52 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. I do not have multiple file systems
18:04:34 <zzo38> Is there a way to perform incremental backups while the system is running?
18:11:32 <\oren\_> I back everything up to DVD
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18:34:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: performing backups while the system is running is much more difficult, because you have to be very careful not to end up in an inconsistent state, like where some data is moved from one directory to another, and you back up both directories when the data is in the other.
18:35:47 <wob_jonas> There are application-specific tricks (eg. subversion gives like four different ways to create a consistent copy of a repository), and there's modern solutions supported by the kernel and the file system, but I don't know how these work and I'm not the right person to ask.
18:37:19 <wob_jonas> For my home machine, I already turn off the computer often, so I can afford to stop most other processes when I'm creating the backup (the tarballs to a hard disk that is; I can run the system while I write the tarballs to DVD), and I can manage small but important files (like the stereotypical thesis) in a case by case basis (eg. I don't work on t
18:37:19 <wob_jonas> he thesis while I make a backup copy of it).
18:37:48 <wob_jonas> \oren\: ok, but what's your process of backing up everything to DVD? can you be a bit more specific?
18:41:39 <zzo38> Can you lease the file while making a backup of it?
18:42:13 <zzo38> (If the lease is broken, it can remember that it has not backed up that file and try again later)
18:43:40 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: I just burn a new set of dvds aveyr few months
18:45:06 <zzo38> Or will leasing the files not help?
18:45:11 <\oren\_> I don't really have any large files so my whole home directory fits on 3 DVD's
18:45:29 <\oren\_> ... used to fit on only one tho
18:46:36 <\oren\_> I keep them in envelopes with the date I burned them written on them
18:47:10 <zzo38> All of the files on my computer might fit on three DVDs, but I have not tested this yet
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18:49:28 <\oren\_> of those, it's two DVD's worth of saved mp3's
18:49:35 <\oren\_> and one with everything else
18:50:30 <\oren\_> so I have dvd envelopes with "December 2017 music collection part 1"
18:51:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you'd have to lease all files (and all directories) at the same time, and if that was possible, it's more or less than same as stopping or suspending the system because nobody can write anything
18:51:55 <wob_jonas> \oren\: do you store some of the backup DVDs in places other than the home where the computer is?
18:52:19 <fizzie> My backups are in a different country than the computer.
18:52:26 <wob_jonas> I think about a quarter of my backups is photos, and this ratio will just increase as I'm doing more and more photography
18:53:06 <fizzie> wob_jonas: TBH, it's really just an artefact of the fact that we already had a safety deposit box in a bank in Finland.
18:53:10 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: no but I usually take my computer on trips, but don't take the dvd's. I have off-site backups onto AWS
18:53:25 <fizzie> (It does mean the off-site copy is only updated about once a year.)
18:57:17 <\oren\_> actually now I think about it I could put some dvd's in the garage, which probably wouldn't burn even if the whole house did
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18:57:44 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, and you could say that my off-site backups are an artifact of having moved away from my parents' house but still storing some stuff there
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19:29:22 -!- quintopia has set topic: Welcome to the international millennium for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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19:56:24 <zzo38> Is rsync suitable to make a backup on the DVD?
19:57:19 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54409&oldid=54387 * BMO * (+410) implemented the language & changed commands-listing to a wiki-table.
19:57:26 <zzo38> (Since I already have rsync in my computer)
20:01:42 <zzo38> And what issues will there be with recording on DVD while the system is running? The man page for wodim says, for the information about the -dummy option, "It is recommended to run several tests before actually writing to a Compact Disk or Digital Versatile Disk, if the timing and load response of the system is not known."
20:04:10 <zzo38> Also, which DVDs are better, -R or +R? I have -R (and as far as I know the optical drive on my computer can record on DVD-R), but I don't know what is better
20:08:16 <zzo38> Anyways, if there are any of my public files that you want copies of (including clones of Fossil repositories), you may make those copies if you wish.
20:26:51 <shachaf> copumpkin: at least you can replace USB cables without replacing the whole charger hth
20:29:07 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's much less of a problem these days than it used to be when computers were small and your whole computer had 128 MB of RAM and so CD burners couldn't afford to have hundreds of megabytes of buffer RAM right on the board. these days you don't have to worry about burning DVD while the system is running.
20:30:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: there's still some anecdotal evidence that it might be worth to burn disks at slower speed than the drive and disk are capable of, not because the burning fails, but because the disk might last longer, but it's hard to tell whether this actually matters
20:30:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: as for -R versus +R disks, these days it doesn't matter at all. that started as some sort of two standards by two competing companies, but these days every drive and every software is compatible with every variant.
20:31:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and no, I don't think rsync is suitable for writing directly on the DVD
20:33:16 <wob_jonas> For writing DVD or CD, I recommend first collecting a copy of what you want to backup to hard disk, which is the phase where it matters that other processes don't modify the source, then later you can write from that copy to DVD at leisure, for which I recommend http://libburnia-project.org/ if you're doing the burning on a linux system
20:34:16 <wob_jonas> that's a set of command-line tools for writing (and reading) CD and DVD of all kinds
20:36:01 <wob_jonas> so I create backup tarballs on hard disk while the system is running, then write the tarballs onto DVDs
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20:40:45 <wob_jonas> This isn't the only software that can burn DVDs, and you can use others, it's just what I recommend.
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21:02:06 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54410&oldid=54403 * ZM * (+26) This is going to be controversial
21:05:39 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54411&oldid=54410 * ZM * (+83)
21:06:06 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54412&oldid=54411 * ZM * (+29)
21:06:31 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54413&oldid=54412 * ZM * (-10)
21:18:37 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54414&oldid=54413 * ZM * (+373) Background info
21:22:33 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54415&oldid=54414 * Hanss314 * (+113)
21:27:11 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54416&oldid=54415 * Hanss314 * (+71)
21:27:47 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54417&oldid=54416 * Hanss314 * (-2)
21:28:00 <moony> Would it be possible to design a language to be turing complete when it's only data type is a set
21:28:13 <moony> (without self modification. self modification makes anything turing if you try hard enough lol)
21:36:14 <\oren\_> moony: you can represent any integer as a set
21:37:21 <moony> I'm just looking into how such a language could be minimized, and what would the minimum instruction set for a set only language be
21:39:05 <wob_jonas> moony: can you have labels and goto? if so, then probably just have a two-counter Minsky machine, and call the numbers "sets", where instead of increasing, you form a singleton set, and instead of decreasing, you take an arbitrary element of the set but test if it's empty
21:42:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bottersnike * New user account
21:46:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54418&oldid=54395 * Bottersnike * (+299)
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23:08:17 <shachaf> oerjan: how come you didn't replace 5? with something else tdnh
23:09:06 <shachaf> `5 [[ $((RANDOM % 2)) = 0 ]] && w || q
23:09:14 <HackEgo> 1/2:39) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear. \ 587) <Ngevd> I'm neither Norwegian nor Finnish <Ngevd> I don't fit in your quaint little categories \ 89) <Quas_NaArt> Hooray! <Quas_NaArt> I'm an idiot. \ 1268) <ais523> editor flame wars are fun, I typically take the side of emacs and vim ve
23:09:19 <HackEgo> 2/2:rsus everything else <ais523> normally I can get most of the emacs /and/ vim users round to my side, thus catching out all the other-editor-users who thought they were safe \ article//An article is something that `learn can understand.
23:09:44 <moony> i still need to learn emacs
23:09:55 <moony> it looks useful, and its certainly faster than atom
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