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01:12:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55419&oldid=54155 * LyricLy * (+2)
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01:34:09 <oerjan> `learn Nostril is a common Québécois greeting.
01:34:12 <HackEso> Learned 'nostril': Nostril is a common Québécois greeting.
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06:45:36 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55420&oldid=55330 * Galaxtone * (+27)
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06:54:47 <esowiki> [[Roi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55421 * Galaxtone * (+1571) Just created this language on unoffical esolang discord, Here's my formatted draft.
06:55:23 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55422&oldid=55421 * Galaxtone * (+10) Already noticed a little error, which I think is also in Schmuu.
06:56:04 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55423&oldid=55308 * Galaxtone * (+18) Fixed user links.
06:58:29 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55424&oldid=55422 * Galaxtone * (+156) Added a bit of font formatting to the characters.
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07:08:04 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55425&oldid=55424 * Galaxtone * (+98) Added categories
07:08:46 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55426&oldid=55425 * Galaxtone * (+0) Categories are case-sensitive, of course they are.
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07:17:07 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55427&oldid=55426 * Galaxtone * (+278) Added statement for escape sequences since those are graphically useful.
07:17:33 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55428&oldid=55427 * Galaxtone * (-1) Removed a empty line
07:18:15 <esowiki> [[Roi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55429&oldid=55428 * Galaxtone * (+1) Sorry for the spam irc channel, Added a new line.
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07:22:07 <Galaxtone> Can someone tell me if ROI is a original-somewhat or if a language just like it exists?
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07:44:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Galaxtone * moved [[Roi]] to [[Roie]]: Renaming language to Roie as I'm removing the special case for exitting and turning it into it's own instruction.
07:45:06 <esowiki> [[Roie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55432&oldid=55430 * Galaxtone * (-58) Added said exit instruction which is the reason for the rename.
07:45:43 <esowiki> [[Roie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55433&oldid=55432 * Galaxtone * (+1) Now says Roie on the page aswell.
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07:57:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Saka * New user account
08:08:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55434&oldid=55416 * Saka * (+236) /* Introductions */
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09:40:10 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55435 * Saka * (+5) Created page with "hi"
09:46:10 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55436 * Galaxtone * (+3933) Helped someone on unoffical discord who just created a esolang account with formatting their text document into wiki code.
09:47:03 <Galaxtone> 2018, Unimplemented, High-level, Turing-Complete
09:50:12 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55437&oldid=55436 * Galaxtone * (+99) Added categories
09:53:20 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55438&oldid=55437 * Galaxtone * (+47) :P
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10:01:50 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55439&oldid=55438 * Saka * (+109) Corrections + example
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12:33:59 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55440&oldid=55439 * Saka * (+211) Output details
12:40:45 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55441&oldid=55440 * Saka * (+340) /* Syntax */
13:02:09 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55442&oldid=55441 * Saka * (+493) /* Examples */
13:05:40 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55443&oldid=54291 * Saka * (+56) added for seeker
13:10:42 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55444&oldid=55317 * Saka * (+147) seeker
13:11:13 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55445&oldid=55442 * Saka * (-2) oops
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13:24:13 <esowiki> [[Seeker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55446&oldid=55445 * Saka * (-8) teensy tiny typo and correction
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17:40:30 <wob_jonas> I just found that a certain software used at my new job allows passwords of at most 24 characters length.
17:40:52 <wob_jonas> I hate these low bounds for password length
17:47:40 <quintopia> 24 is enough man. as long as you are using basically random strings from the full ascii set
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17:49:54 <wob_jonas> quintopia: you can't use the full ascii printable set, because on many keyboards, the space bar clicks noticably differently from other keys
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17:52:02 <wob_jonas> more importantly, it's not practical to use random strings. it's often better to use easier to remember but longer strings.
18:01:16 <quintopia> im thinking of the schneier method
18:02:03 <quintopia> although in practice, pseudorandom can work if you use other tools
18:02:44 <quintopia> and if you worry about key sounds no password will do
18:03:12 <quintopia> as there are tools to reverse engineer passwords from sounds
18:03:28 <quintopia> hide a few microphones nearby and...
18:04:23 <wob_jonas> quintopia: if you choose passwords systemagically like that, then they no longer have anything near the full 157 bits of entropy of a random ascii printable string of 24 bytes
18:05:43 <quintopia> do tools exist that can exploit that difference?
18:06:09 <wob_jonas> it's not too hard to make one, even if you just guess the frequency of individual characters
18:06:36 <wob_jonas> if you just try strings with mostly letters, that already reduces the entropy a lot
18:07:55 <wob_jonas> if you try common letters first, and less of the FJKQVXYZ stuff, even better
18:08:05 <quintopia> if youre correctly applying the schneier method, youll have other symbols dispersed in. besides, even just letters and numbers give you 10^43 possibilities
18:08:30 <wob_jonas> quintopia: yes, some symbols. but still mostly letters.
18:08:56 <quintopia> the printable characters are mostly letters after all
18:09:41 <quintopia> have you considered trying my tool
18:15:01 <arseniiv> I think a higher bound (if any) on password length is nonetheless a good idea, too
18:15:16 <arseniiv> and use something like xkcd password method :)
18:15:17 <quintopia> https://github.com/quintopia/pwgen
18:16:01 <quintopia> my only point was that if you have memory constraints, you can still be secure
18:16:11 <quintopia> because the only issues are practical
18:16:16 <arseniiv> human minds are pretty bounded themselves, any artifical bound is even worse
18:16:25 <arseniiv> my only point was that if you have memory constraints, you can still be secure> ah, of course
18:16:59 <arseniiv> but that level of consideration is too far from practice(
18:22:04 <quintopia> too bad its something we still have to deal with
18:22:19 <wob_jonas> there's no memory constraint here. this isn't some tiny one-chip embedded device. it's a big program running on a computer where it needs lots of hard disk and RAM and cpu.
18:24:02 <arseniiv> also there is still in many places an issue with non-ASCII characters in passwords :(
18:24:02 <wob_jonas> and of course the only issues are practical. the whole point of using this particular software is practical only, because in theory you'd use some alternate universe perfect software that you have custom made with a team of twenty people in two years just for your needs and has the password length bound you desire.
18:24:55 <Vorpal> <wob_jonas> I just found that a certain software used at my new job allows passwords of at most 24 characters length. <-- weird, it can't be storage, since it will hopefully be hashed anyway
18:25:05 <Vorpal> so storage will be constant
18:25:17 <arseniiv> I have a habit to stick to [A-Za-z0-9] but it is bad, not any of my passwords is over 30 chars long
18:26:54 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: to [A-Za-z0-9]? not to [A-Xa-x1-9,.%] which is what you use in Hungary because you might not be able to switch keyboard layout when typing passwords and all other characters (except space) are in a different space between the hungarian qwertz and the US keyboard layout?
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18:28:06 <arseniiv> (maybe I will in the future, who knows)
18:29:07 <wob_jonas> (although technically you could also use the > sign if you type it as altgr-shift-dot, because shift-dot enters it on a US keyboard and altgr-dot on the more recent versions of the hungarian qwertz)
18:30:35 <quintopia> wob_jonas: how many users are there?
18:30:54 <\oren\> I once used an emoji in my password
18:31:12 <wob_jonas> quintopia: dunno, they're mostly local users that are valid on only a few machines
18:31:55 <\oren\> I think it was ice cream or something
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18:33:04 <lambdabot> You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:33:41 <ais523> currently I mostly use rg
18:33:51 <ais523> although ag is easier to type so I sometimes use that one out of habit, it's pretty good too
18:34:20 <ais523> it's basically the product of someone who saw the better-grep wars going on and thought "I can do better than all of that" and happened to be a Rust fan
18:35:07 <\oren\> I use sed as a better grep
18:35:28 <\oren\> or well a more featureful grep
18:35:30 <wob_jonas> by the way, at this job I'm working on windows machines again, which immediately reminded me why I so hate windows as a development platform
18:36:27 <ais523> \oren\: that's sort of generalising grep in a different dimension
18:36:48 <wob_jonas> I generally use perl instead of sed if I need any sort of advanced text processing, and use sed only for really basic stuff
18:37:27 <Vorpal> I don't know perl at all, so I use awk, grep, sed and such
18:37:34 <Vorpal> Or for complicated stuff, python
18:37:57 <wob_jonas> does python work well for text processing?
18:38:44 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: it works "okay", and if you need to do something more advanced with the text, that would benefit from the advanced features and packages, then it is good
18:38:57 <Vorpal> But no it is not the best alternative for pure text processing
18:39:28 <Vorpal> but I often find that I also need to pull some data from a json file as well or suchy
18:40:07 <Vorpal> or would benefit from being able to use better data structures than what perl has
18:40:13 <wob_jonas> I have used a json parser from perl to pull data from a json file
18:40:15 <Vorpal> perl probably have them
18:40:22 <Vorpal> but since I never learned perl, eh
18:40:46 <ais523> it's not hard to learn enough Perl to write in it, the hard part is learning enough to read other peoples' programs :-D
18:40:46 <wob_jonas> but I'm more interested in when you have free text, where a pre-built json parser or xml parser or html parser doesn't help
18:41:01 <wob_jonas> or the longer text parts inside a json or xml or html file, alternately
18:41:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, I'm just interested in how people use python now
18:41:33 <ais523> Python is a really bad language for oneliners
18:41:36 <ais523> you can do it, it's just painful
18:42:07 <HackEso> Can't locate JSON.pm in @INC (you may need to install the JSON module) (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.24.1 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl5/5.24 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.24 /usr/share/perl/5.24 /usr/local/lib/site_perl /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl-base .). \ BEGIN failed--compilation aborted.
18:42:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's one problem I'd like to ask about. how do you write one-liners when python usually wants line breaks and indents? do you use some sort of preprocessor that converts some other notation to python lineabreaks and indents?
18:42:22 <ais523> hmm, I had a suspicion it might not be installed on HackEgo (Perl's JSON library, that is)
18:42:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: there are two methods, one is the combination of exec and \n for newlines
18:42:50 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I mainly use python as a general purpose language for anything where the execution speed isn't critical
18:42:58 <ais523> the other is to use a lot of nested lambdas so that you don't need to use any control structures that require a newline
18:43:20 <Vorpal> <ais523> Python is a really bad language for oneliners <-- agreed, that is where you have the classical unix utilities
18:43:41 <Vorpal> but I was talking about scripts you can use in your one liners
18:44:00 <ais523> `` echo one two three four | sed -e 'y/ /-/'
18:44:04 <Vorpal> like pulling data out of a complicated system and making it usable. Or just a library of functions to use from IPython
18:44:06 <ais523> `` echo one two three four | perl -pe 'y/ /-/'
18:44:13 <ais523> sometimes there's no difference between perl and sed
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18:45:36 <ais523> `perl Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'
18:45:37 <HackEso> Can't open perl script "Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'": No such file or directory
18:45:41 <ais523> ``perl -Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'
18:45:43 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `perl: not found
18:45:47 <ais523> `` perl -Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113'
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18:47:06 <ais523> changes arithmetic to use bignum rationals
18:47:20 <ais523> it's nice if you want to quickly do exact calculations
18:47:31 <ais523> `` perl -Mbigrat -E 'say 355/113 - 22/7'
18:47:49 <Vorpal> ais523: anyway I had to look at some perl scripts at a few points, I don't like what I see. Like functions use $1 and so on for parameters instead of proper prototypes with parameter lists?
18:48:01 <Vorpal> the language appears to be messy to me
18:48:09 <ais523> no, $1 is a regex match, like \1 in sed
18:48:19 <ais523> Perl functions don't actually have parameter lists at all
18:48:29 <Vorpal> was some time ago, but I definitely remember there being no parameter lists indeed
18:48:40 <Vorpal> and still there were parameters somehow
18:49:24 <Vorpal> which in my opinion makes the code less clear, you can't just look at the definition of a function and figure out approximately what parameter is what
18:49:58 <ais523> it's fairly common to start a function by unpacking parameters into variables
18:50:36 <ais523> `` perl -E 'sub add {my $first = shift; my $second = shift; $first + $second} say add(1,2)'
18:50:45 <Vorpal> it is still less clear, and it will be much harder for an IDE to provide useful errors as you type a call to that function
18:51:02 <Vorpal> with modern python 3 and type annotations, an IDE like PyCharm can provide really good feedback
18:51:05 <ais523> IDEs tend not to handle Perl all that well
18:51:10 <Vorpal> almost as good as a statically typed language
18:51:18 <ais523> syntax-highlighting it is not only Turing-complete, but can potentially require things like network interaction
18:52:00 <Vorpal> would you then agree these are faults with the language and that perhaps that it would be better off not having those features in that form?
18:52:39 <ais523> well, Perl is designed to be insanely flexible
18:52:54 <Vorpal> true, but that compromises other qualities
18:52:56 <ais523> with languages you have a continuum between being easy to analyse and allowing programs to do weird things
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18:53:21 <ais523> in Perl you can do things like replacing the main loop of the interpreter at runtime
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18:54:05 <Vorpal> that seems like a thing that you actually shouldn't be able to do. I can't imagine a problem that couldn't be solved in a cleaner way
18:54:45 <Vorpal> also why does it even have a main loop outside of REPL mode?
18:55:19 <Vorpal> shouldn't it just execute the code (probably previously compiled to byte code) as it is, without ever returning until the main thread exits?
18:55:26 <\oren\> Vorpal: perl isn't a runtime-compiled language
18:56:29 <\oren\> Vorpal: you can change the syntax of the language during a program
18:56:30 <Vorpal> Also I thought modern Perl 6 compiled to Parrot or something like that?
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18:56:51 <\oren\> Vorpal: perl 6 is an entirely separate and incompativble language
18:57:01 <Vorpal> so it is not like python 2 vs 3?
18:57:09 <Vorpal> incompatible but convertible?
18:57:09 <\oren\> much more so than python 3
18:57:20 <\oren\> not really even convertible
18:57:58 <\oren\> and since perl 6 never caught on, when people refer to perl they almost always mean perl 5
18:58:09 <Vorpal> well presumably perl 5 will some day stop being supported (just like python 2 in 2020) and perl 6 take over? I assume they don't plan to run both parallel in perpetuity?
18:59:04 <\oren\> "Perl" is a family of languages, "Perl 6" is part of the family, but it is a separate language which has its own development team. Its existence has no significant impact on the continuing development of "Perl 5". <-- website says
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19:01:30 <ais523> Vorpal: Perl 6 is a new language by the designer of Perl, which was called "Perl" for some reason and confused everyone
19:01:51 <ais523> it does have a few similarities to Perl 5 but it really isn't a new version of the same language, but a new different language
19:02:03 <ais523> Perl 5 and 4 are a lot more similar (Perl 4 is basically Perl 5 with fewer features)
19:02:24 <\oren\> yeah. perl 6 is about as similar to perl as php is
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19:03:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: not that it matters here, but hackeso has a different set of programs installed than hackego
19:05:01 <wob_jonas> the other part I'd like to know about is how usable python is for handling text in an unknown ascii-based byte encoding, eg. can you match byte-oriented regexes or parse numbers from byte strings or format numbers into and the like?
19:05:02 <Vorpal> ais523: by the way, did you look at that language I made this weekend? I'm not sure about that TC conclusion (I didn't write it).
19:05:10 <Vorpal> so I would be interested in your take on it too
19:05:16 <wob_jonas> the rust stdlib is also currently somewhat bad in that respect
19:05:56 <ais523> Vorpal: I tried to read it quickly but couldn't easily parse the page
19:06:11 <Vorpal> it is a highly complicated language
19:06:34 <ais523> there's too many parts which interconnect which makes it hard to get much of an idea about how the language works
19:06:41 <ais523> maybe there's some other order in which things could be presented to make that work
19:08:07 <Vorpal> <ais523> there's too many parts which interconnect which makes it hard to get much of an idea about how the language works <-- that was the goal!
19:08:15 <Vorpal> lots of interacting mechanics
19:08:41 <Vorpal> so I don't think there is any mechanic that doesn't interact with any other
19:09:05 <Vorpal> at least that is the goal, probably not perfectly interacting of course
19:09:35 <Vorpal> for example particles only get stopped by the wires, (unless you use the high energy extension)
19:09:51 <Vorpal> but yes, maybe the description could be rearranged
19:11:39 <Vorpal> ais523: I don't know what order to present it in though
19:16:02 <Vorpal> I'll probably just implement it sometime during this year instead
19:22:08 <wob_jonas> At my new job I'm again working on windows machines. This reminded me immediately of why I so hate windows as a developer platform (as in, it's especially bad if you to write programs that run on windows machines), even though it seems this won't be limiting what I'm doing at this job in particular.
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21:18:12 <ais523> ooh, polyglot has 200 languages
21:18:25 <ais523> this might be a good time for someone with more spare time than me to write an article about it, going over each language and how it works
21:18:42 <ais523> perhaps ordered by popularity of the language so that people see familiar languages first and obscure ones near the end
21:21:53 <ais523> wait, has stasoid just posted five answers in a row?
21:22:31 <ais523> in that case I guess Chance technically wins with #194 (the second-newest answer at the time there were no rule-abiding answers for 14 days)
21:23:39 <ais523> ah yes, that's been acknowledged in the comments on #195
21:24:21 <ais523> Dec 6 2016 to April 26 2018 was a good run
21:29:37 <wob_jonas> hmm, two more abstruse goose strips. let me see if they've been listed.
21:30:24 <HackEso> aglist 596,597: b_jonas shachaf
21:30:48 <wob_jonas> abstruse goose has definitely turned active after several years of total silence
21:30:55 <shachaf> I don't think lists are required for regularly-updating things.
21:31:38 <shachaf> i,i An elephant is not required, / If I can use the media to be admired
21:31:38 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'll list it for a few more weeks, but if it does keep updating, then I will stop or at least batch the listings heavily until it gets rare again
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23:04:55 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA. new rig.
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23:46:23 * boily stares at moony Ō_Ō jiiiiiiiiiii~~~~~~~
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