00:18:13 <esowiki> [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57337&oldid=57311 * HereToAnnoy * (-224) Minor changes
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00:19:29 <tswett> I've got a Big Ol' Problem (in the sense of a "math problem").
00:19:52 <tswett> Given an undecidable decision problem, turn it into a programming language with I/O.
00:20:33 <tswett> Interactive I/O, even.
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00:23:31 <tswett> Here's the particular decision problem I have in mind today.
00:23:43 <tswett> Given a finite presentation of a group, is the group finite?
00:24:11 <tswett> You can turn that into a programming language pretty trivially.
00:24:24 <tswett> A program is a finite presentation of a group. The program halts if and only if the generated group is finite.
00:24:55 <tswett> But there's no I/O there.
00:25:55 <tswett> So how do you extend this programming language, keeping within its spirit, in order to give it I/O?
00:27:16 <tswett> Here's an initial idea for some output. You can mark some of the generators, and when your program halts, it outputs the orders of the marked generators.
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03:38:54 <Sgeo> Netscape 4 on Windows 3.1, when it sends applets keyUp, seems to fill the upper bytes of the key code with garbage
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05:11:07 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57338&oldid=57335 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Found one small error (fixed) using the interpreter
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08:50:37 <wob_jonas> tswett: re undecidable program to programming language, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%3F which is a perfect example for that sort of thing IMO
08:52:28 <wob_jonas> tom7's new what? darn, I can't recover lambdabot's message and didn't read it before I closed the window. shachaf, oerjan: who said that and what was it?
08:53:23 <wob_jonas> I don't even know who sent the message
08:53:29 <wob_jonas> and I didn't see tom7's new anything
08:54:12 <wob_jonas> it's not mentioned on his radar or his youtube
08:56:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: Do you mean ZM~~ # Printy# C with ABC!? because I have seen it in 2017 and talked with you about it and even wrote messages to tom7 a short writeup on the esowiki. so you must be meaning something newer
08:58:49 <wob_jonas> and I have seen "Reverse emulating the NES" too of course, and it's great. I'm not really satisfied with the name "reverse emulating", but tom7 always gives such whimsical names, like the unibycle
08:59:52 <shachaf> wob_jonas: He made a 48-hour game thing
09:00:20 <wob_jonas> no blog post yet, but he must be tired after the 48 hours
09:00:38 <shachaf> http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/
09:01:09 <wob_jonas> I've played his wire connector games, and wikiplia (which doesn't really count), and the nested falling squares, but not any of the others IIRC
09:01:19 <wob_jonas> oh, and a bit of the original Escape
09:01:34 <wob_jonas> but only the wire connector and the falling squares are 48 hour or 24 hour ones
09:02:10 <wob_jonas> do you happen to know what the prompt of the ludum dare was? tom7 always forgets to say
09:03:36 <shachaf> Apparently the theme was "running out of space"
09:04:05 <shachaf> Which is also the name of the game, and gur znva zrpunavp bs gur tnzr?
09:04:52 <wob_jonas> so he made an inventory management game with too few inventory space? after the wire connecting game had a softlock bug where you ran out of space to place the item you picked up? nice
09:05:31 <shachaf> Knowing that that's the name of the game puts it in a slightly different light.
09:06:07 <wob_jonas> oh, the four words at the bottom are clickable too!
09:06:50 <wob_jonas> that doesn't look like the standard galactic alphabet, but there's a chance it's a simple substitution cipher, knowing tom7
09:06:55 <shachaf> s/name of the game/theme of the competition/, I mean. I already knew the other thing.
09:07:03 <shachaf> It's a simple substitution cipher.
09:07:09 <wob_jonas> doesn't everyone in the galaxy use standard galactic alphabet though?
09:07:14 <wob_jonas> why is this particular alien different
09:07:42 <shachaf> What's standard galactic alphabet?
09:08:10 <wob_jonas> it's a simple substitution cipher for the 26 ascii letters plus one or two extra from the Commander Keen series
09:08:35 <wob_jonas> http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Standard_Galactic_Alphabet tells more than I could
09:09:03 <wob_jonas> the Commander Keen games have labels of it everywhere, including "EXIT" signs at the ends of the level
09:09:28 <wob_jonas> also gives the full alphabet in some hidden place in case you can't figure out
09:11:15 <wob_jonas> and the Keen 5 ending sequence shows a letter from the big bad of game 3 and Keen's arch-enemy that reveals that Keen did not kill him at the end-boss of game 3 as you thought, only his "android dummy", so he's still alive and plotting
09:11:18 <shachaf> http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/spacefont.png
09:12:31 <wob_jonas> I already figured out what three of the four bottom labels should mean
09:12:46 <wob_jonas> tom7's nice consistent style of giving easy clues in such a game helps a lot
09:13:15 <wob_jonas> leftmost and rightmost are obvious
09:13:25 <wob_jonas> but the third one doesn't look like it can be "inventory"
09:13:49 <wob_jonas> but I have my trusty frequency dictionary grepping with backreferences for these cases
09:14:57 <wob_jonas> the English frequency dict compiled by http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts/ of course
09:15:47 <wob_jonas> I recommend it for all English word problems
09:21:05 <wob_jonas> hopefully if I restart, the hover text of the fire extinguisher helps
09:21:22 <wob_jonas> I'll have to get back to this later, but I'm busy and really have to work and rest instead
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09:25:42 <wob_jonas> It's not linked from the Ludum Dare section from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/ yet, so I don't know how you figured out it even exists. You must be subscribed to some secret news source I don't know of.
09:25:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do we need a tom7list? we have like four people who care about his projects
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10:04:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mhmdyasr * New user account
10:20:34 <esowiki> [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57339&oldid=56735 * A * (+154) List all 3 possibilities for creating an infinite loop.
10:24:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57340&oldid=57324 * Mhmdyasr * (+144) /* Introductions */
10:27:44 <wob_jonas> oerjan: shachaf pointes out http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/ , a new Tom 7 Ludum Dare game
10:28:02 <wob_jonas> who else is there I should notify?
10:30:30 <wob_jonas> Taneb: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/ , guy with some amazing projects, some related to computers or mathematics (he has a PhD in maths), some to marathon running
10:32:28 <wob_jonas> has ran a marathon with a birthday cake once, and once completed a marathon in a full hockey player costume with skates http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/comment/1/1100
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10:32:48 <wob_jonas> also writes articles for sigbovik, a joke conference
10:33:40 <esowiki> [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57341&oldid=57339 * A * (+82)
10:33:41 <wob_jonas> ok, that one wasn't a marathon, only 10 kilometers
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10:34:36 <wob_jonas> and ran in a shark costume once and in an escaped convict costume once. that's the four running in costumes project that he did.
10:35:19 <wob_jonas> you can find all five from the hockey link
10:35:28 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57342&oldid=57272 * A * (-1096) Blanked the page
10:35:57 <wob_jonas> also keeps up posting "every month" to her blog since 2000, which is quite an accomplishment
10:36:25 <wob_jonas> had to backdate some entries by as much as two days lately to make it work, but sticks to the at least one post for every month
10:38:27 <wob_jonas> I think most of the running projects were 10 kilometers
10:41:36 <wob_jonas> there was a cake costume (not running with a cake, but running as a cake) too somewhere
10:43:20 <wob_jonas> http://radar.spacebar.org/?month=10&year=2015 is the cake costume
10:44:38 <Taneb> Sounds like an interesting fellow
10:45:12 <wob_jonas> so at least seven costume running. wow, I didn't realize there were so many
10:46:22 <wob_jonas> there's a balloon one and a slippers + bathroom cloak one too
10:46:41 <wob_jonas> http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/category/1/races
10:49:26 <wob_jonas> ^ that should show all the costume running, if he categorizes well
11:03:23 <int-e> hmm cute little game
11:07:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: who else do we ping on the tom7list? I think I forgot someone
11:09:25 <int-e> how many typos are there? it's kind of embarrassing that there's one in one of the commands :)
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11:14:31 <int-e> // XXX remove "cheat" keys
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11:16:22 <wob_jonas> int-e: he has those in other games too. so what. they're useful for debugging. if you play you can abstain from using them if you want.
11:17:24 <int-e> I guess it's the only typo. There really isn't all that much text :)
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11:20:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: isn't there hover text for all items?
11:21:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: if there really is a typo, email tom7 because maybe he hasn't noticed it yet
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17:30:26 <HackEso> Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
17:30:56 <HackEso> grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
17:32:42 <wob_jonas> the entry for angband should mention the first dungeon
18:05:31 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth in the first dungeon Utumno, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:05:33 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth in the first dungeon Utumno, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:06:03 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:06:05 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:06:43 <wob_jonas> Although I think it's deliberately confusing or something
18:10:08 <wob_jonas> it wasn't the humans alone. Beren the human and Galadriel the elf took part in that fight with the valar, and they defeated Morgoth there but didn't utterly destroyed him, so his final defeat was the miracle in Numenor.
18:10:30 <wob_jonas> you don't put all that in a wisdom, but it shouldn't say just the valar
18:10:57 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
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18:10:59 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
18:11:31 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and was the final boss in Numenor.
18:11:34 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and was the final boss in Numenor.
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18:12:00 <wob_jonas> not really the final boss, more like the big bad
18:12:14 <wob_jonas> `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor.
18:12:16 <HackEso> Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor.
18:12:25 <wob_jonas> just that it wasn't a final defeat
18:12:41 <wob_jonas> the other evil spirits include Sauron of course
18:13:48 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
18:28:26 <arseniiv> https://s22.postimg.cc/5atvbynox/Screenshot-1533.png strange, I’ve seen that face before
18:30:40 <HackEso> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
18:31:04 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
18:31:31 <arseniiv> ah I’ve already read that, it seems
18:33:54 <wob_jonas> yes, örjan is the name of the hypothetic third twin, but he probably doesn't exist
18:36:32 <HackEso> [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+030A COMBINING RING ABOVE]
18:37:52 <arseniiv> there should be also ɵrjan, œrjan, ɶrjan(?) and maybe an aliens named ǫrjan and ᴔrjɐn
18:38:56 <arseniiv> int-e: maybe there is a precombined one, I just don’t see it in ol’ Charmap with DejaVu Sans
18:38:58 <wob_jonas> I don't think anyone uses that, not even those crazy conlangers that make conlangs with like nine vowel tones that must be distinguished and diacritics used to write them.
18:39:54 <\oren\_> wait that's not a latin character
18:40:21 <int-e> nobody cared to make that entry
18:40:22 <wob_jonas> I'm very hazy here, but I think think I've seen are two of those crazy conlangs, one with like nine and one with only eight, but the former uses tones for grammar and the latter for vocabulary and the former has only like five vowel values but the latter has as a larger inventory of crazy diphtong vowels than mandarin.
18:40:40 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: there's the volapuk version, Ꞝ
18:41:26 <arseniiv> at least for a lazy native of a non-tonal language
18:41:31 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: conlangers used to not care so much about technical limitations
18:41:34 <wob_jonas> yes, natural languages probably don't distinguish more than six
18:41:53 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think they *know* about the technical limitations and deliberately want to exceed them
18:43:11 <wob_jonas> wait, ᴔ? is that only IPA or one of those used for writing systems constructed for africian languages?
18:45:07 <arseniiv> there also are conlangs for a nonhuman speech apparati (uh I think this form is totally wrong), e. g. with many more places of articulation or “nassalities” or something multitonal…
18:46:09 <arseniiv> probably neither => yeah AFAIK it’s in no version of IPA yet and is not planned to be there
18:46:13 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, like https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=178 although Sam never made a real conlang for it, only gave translations
18:46:52 <wob_jonas> mind you, (WARNING DON'T READ IF YOU'RE SQUEAMISH) a few humans have a split tongue as deliberate body modification
18:47:37 <arseniiv> hm does a split tongue open new phonetic possibilities?..
18:47:45 <wob_jonas> no, he deliberately left something for his fans
18:48:41 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I've no clue. I also don't understand the phonetic possibilities for just ordinary humans, and already have problems with things like French and English
18:48:48 <arseniiv> btw I read his Ra sequence and some other things
18:49:14 <arseniiv> but Fine Structure was too much complicated
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18:49:38 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I enjoyed his early fiction more, but probably mostly because of nostalgia. stickmanstickman introduced me to webcomics.
18:49:49 <wob_jonas> and it was already completed when I first read it
18:50:33 <wob_jonas> in retrospect, after reading lots of other webcomics, it's not a very good one, but I still love it
18:50:58 <arseniiv> (I haven’t known of it before it was mentioned here)
18:51:52 <wob_jonas> mind you, he posted a new strip every day (except one he missed for technical reasons and inserted later), and his filler material was consistently better than the filler material some other webcomic artists like Jeph used to "post a strip every day"
18:52:17 <arseniiv> it has some charm, as of those episodes I saw
18:52:29 <wob_jonas> kept it up for exactly 1000 strips, which idea he got from Tailsteak's first webcomic. Tailsteak has since completed a second webcomic at exactly 1000 strips, but it's less enjoyable than the first one.
18:52:55 <wob_jonas> admittedly Jeph kept at the daily posting for longer, and he actually draws good art
18:53:33 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: find the links on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn , search for Tailsteak
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18:54:13 <arseniiv> (btw does someone know an English interjection dictionary? In critical moments, I lack in descriptions)
18:56:32 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: thanks for the link
18:59:17 <arseniiv> how do you people think, does an illustrated serial written in a conlang not described prior, has a chance?
19:01:19 <\oren\_> arseniiv: certainly could be a cool way of creating and demonstrating a conlang
19:01:54 <\oren\_> arseniiv: actually I think there was a webcomic with a conlang in it
19:02:25 <wob_jonas> aarseniv: tailsteak's 0/1 and sam's stickmanstickman, like many other webcomics, started as disjoint and a coherent plot got invented later. tailsteak then experimented with a number of smaller webcomics, but took neither very far and didn't complete any but very short ones.
19:03:09 <wob_jonas> when he eventually started Leftover Soup, he planned it, the comic starts with a plot from strip 1 and takes it to a resolution. also still posted daily, but with a larger buffer, and the buffer was public for some reason.
19:03:31 <wob_jonas> at least the comic images of the buffer was, not the annotation and transcript
19:04:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: you’re very knowledgeable :)
19:04:46 <wob_jonas> nah, more like obsessed and had more free time back then
19:05:14 <wob_jonas> I'm not knowledgable in the plot details of Fine Structure or Ra, but I remember most of StickManStickMan
19:05:49 <\oren\_> arseniiv: yeah, it was this one http://unicornjelly.com/
19:06:12 <\oren\_> arseniiv: guy invented an alien language with its own logographic writing system
19:06:17 <wob_jonas> not enough to quickly find strips I want to reference though, so sometimes I think I should take the time to make a transcript or at least keywords per script at least for the random sequences of interlude (filler, non-plot, plot is waiting, joke a day) strips
19:08:17 <wob_jonas> in one of these countries like Switzerland or Belgium or possibly Finland, where the culture actually embraces that the country uses two or three languages and people put bilingual signs in their private property not because of a law but because they genuinely enjoy it
19:08:42 <wob_jonas> (unlike, you know, Québec, where there are a lot of radicals saying that there should be only one language used there, French)
19:08:59 <wob_jonas> especially in countries where the two languages use the same script and same digits
19:09:49 <wob_jonas> does it ever happen that people write price tags with the same price in the same currency listed twice, because both of the languages has an idea of the only one right way to write an amount of currency,
19:10:14 <wob_jonas> but they differ in the value or placement of the currency sign(s), how decimal fractions are denoted, or even the thousands separator?
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19:10:28 <wob_jonas> If not, can we somehow engineer such a situation in one of those countries?
19:12:41 <wob_jonas> The friendly bilingual situation very rarely occurs in some of these programming libraries so they have a C++ and a Python API of all important functions, both developped and released together by the main developers, rather than a Python API (or C++ API for a C library) written later,
19:13:07 <wob_jonas> but it's not exactly analog, because the library itself is implemented all in C++, you don't need a python interpreter to use the C++ API in full
19:14:18 <wob_jonas> Also, is imagining such a price tag an esoteric thing in the sense this channel uses it?
19:16:06 <wob_jonas> The orthography rulebook of Hungarian by the National Academy of Sciences (MTA) is very particular that the abbreviation for forint is written as Ft without a period, which makes it a double exception from normal rules of abbreviations, but makes sense if you think of it as similar to physics units notation
19:16:46 <wob_jonas> that way it would be still not italic and without the dot, but the upper case is not explained by anything other than the historical point of distinguishing it from fillér more clearly
19:22:57 <quintopia> @tell boily polygod comes out of beta tomorrow. they say multiplayer actually works now.
19:36:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57343&oldid=57340 * Asu` * (+115) /* Introductions */
19:36:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57344&oldid=57309 * Asu` * (+90) /* Implementations including Hardware */
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19:39:04 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57345&oldid=57344 * Asu` * (+5) /* Optimizing implementations */
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21:27:22 <HackEso> olist 1135: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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