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01:06:48 <zzo38> I think that the Dawkins scale is fail to consider the difference kind of ideas how is meant by "God" (and what is meant "exists" in this context, too) (including, that you can't know what it means).
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01:32:57 <arseniiv> I think general public definitely in average doesn’t know what it means by “exists”, and I see only two ways to define this word more or less unambiguously and usefully, both of which define existing relatively:
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01:36:31 <arseniiv> one is for “A exists in mathematical/physical theory B” (any modern physical theory contains some mathematical theory and “bindings” of it with experimentally checkable)
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01:47:27 <arseniiv> or not a physical one — any scientific theory admitting a precise definition (i. e. a mathematical one) somewhere inside in its workings;
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01:54:36 <arseniiv> another IIRC is for “(A exists in sc. theory B) upto accuracy C”, in this case it’s not atomic (and thus I think I have thought of something else originally) as it boils down to the first and “sc. theory is valid upto accuracy C”
01:57:57 <arseniiv> so we can say “electrons exist”, and behind the scenes it means we pick any theory which defines them (classical electrodynamics, quantum electrodynamics etc.) and mean such an accuracy level that that theory holds — in everyday life it’s usually a very low level (and a pure mathematical theory always holds if we’re all think it’s sound)
01:58:30 <arseniiv> or we can say “2 exists”, and it admits even more contexts where it’s true
01:59:59 <arseniiv> there could be contexts where it’s meaningless or indeterminate or false (e. g. if we define 2 ≡ 1 + 1, and the theory knows about 1 and +, then 2 exists; if we also want 2 > 1, then in some cases 2 doesn’t exist)
02:00:48 <arseniiv> these definitions are very useful IMO and they capture that we usually speak inside a vast context
02:02:11 <arseniiv> but I’m still unsure abouth the second. When I find my notes, I’ll write if it’s laid out right
02:03:10 <arseniiv> but, as about e. g. Dawkins, there are also useful existential _presumptions_
02:07:55 <arseniiv> they could be thought of as a propositions (maybe axioms) of some very general theories which is hard to place exactly in what domain of knowledge they are, but philosophers these days say they have figured this out. This metatheoretical stuff is a dim part and it’s not that essential to workings of science or everyday scientific worldview
02:10:26 <arseniiv> it’s not IMO that interesting as an existence. Also several formalizations of logic treat existence differently in details, so that underlying logic must be included in a mentioned theory, if one to be boring enough
02:13:27 <arseniiv> also these are cases when “is valid” for a theories is not enough, then there comes “is useful (to a consensus, or to someone like me)”
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02:18:15 <arseniiv> oops I’ve completely missed. I was defining what is truth, not existence. It’s more general
02:21:49 <arseniiv> so we have a mathematical truth (depending on a logic and a theory in it) or an experimental truth (depending on a precision). “Electron exists” will be the first, many experiments on this or that electrodynamics would give us tons of the second ones. Then we could combine truths of both kinds and say electrons exist with this accuracy
02:23:16 <arseniiv> of course it’s a first approximation, but it’s about right for everything ontological an average man like me will need
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02:26:26 <arseniiv> an important corollary to this definition of truth is that absolute truth is a non-entity. Any truth is relative, but of course not in a sense it is usually used by politicians or journalists
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03:05:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57354&oldid=57343 * Stasoid * (+155) /* Introductions */
03:06:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57355&oldid=8279 * Stasoid * (+141) /* Exit command in string mode */ new section
03:09:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57356&oldid=57355 * Stasoid * (+121) /* Name capitalization */ new section
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04:57:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SelfMod * New user account
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05:02:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57357&oldid=57354 * SelfMod * (+173) /* Introductions */ hi
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10:26:59 <esowiki> [[Puzzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57358&oldid=40488 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational Class */ Link TC
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19:29:24 <zzo38> Many C programs are designed to return a null pointer in case of error and something else if it is OK, but how common is it to return a null pointer if it is OK and not null if it is an error? Sometimes I have done that in some cases.
19:30:45 <shachaf> Go functions often do that with the second return value.
19:31:18 <shachaf> x, err := f(); if err != nil { ... }
19:31:46 <shachaf> It's not a pointer, but some glibc functions have an annoying idiom with errno that works similarly.
19:32:05 <shachaf> (errno = 0; x = f(); if (errno != 0) { ... })
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19:35:40 <zzo38> Some functions in Free Hero Mesh return null if OK or a constant error message if it is an error (although some errors are fatal and will cause the program to terminate instead).
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19:38:48 <oerjan> jix: you have some questions for you on Talk:Axo
19:39:25 * oerjan cannot recall em talking in years...
19:40:48 <zzo38> I don't know of any program language other than C and LLVM which has setjmp/longjmp, even though sometimes it can be good. Also many APIs of many programs can't be longjmp through since it might do something that it doesn't expect
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19:44:10 <oerjan> hasn't edited the wiki since 2006, yet is still here in the channel :P
19:44:27 <oerjan> i guess i can answer one of the questions.
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19:49:19 <esowiki> [[Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57359&oldid=42647 * Oerjan * (+14) Standardize capitalization to the (mostly) original
20:06:30 <oerjan> hm i think the other question was due to an edit error
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20:21:05 <esowiki> [[Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57360&oldid=57359 * Oerjan * (+35) grm, fix ancient rewriting error
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20:22:29 <zzo38> Why does SQLite have a sqlite3_result_blob64() function but no corresponding sqlite3_value_bytes64() function (at least according to the documentation)?
20:22:39 <oerjan> jix: never mind, i found the answers
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20:26:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57361&oldid=57356 * Oerjan * (+554) Fixed errors
20:27:20 <zzo38> Presumably the reason is due to the limit which is limited to 32-bits (having interfaces with 64-bit numbers can be useful in case you do not want to implement that by yourself), but it should probably be mentioned in the documentation of sqlite3_result_blob64() and so on that it is limited otherwise you might think the limit is longer if you do not check elsewhere.
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20:29:25 <zzo38> (Since it is already limited to one billion anyways.)
20:29:43 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57362&oldid=57080 * GDavid * (+569) /* Mathematics */
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20:32:43 <zzo38> (If a sqlite3_limit64() function is ever added, then a sqlite3_value_bytes64() function may be necessary.)
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20:48:03 <int-e> <3 null pointer dereferences.
20:49:29 <zzo38> Null pointer dereferences?
20:51:03 <int-e> or near enough: SEGV on unknown address 0x000000000008
20:52:14 <zzo38> What program is that?
20:55:14 <int-e> Ar maybe address sanitizer is playing tricks on me. It's my own program but the error is thrown in a library.
20:55:46 <esowiki> [[Puzzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57363&oldid=57358 * Oerjan * (+52) /* Overview */ Use horizontal space instead of vertical
20:56:11 * oerjan vaguely wonders if someone changed it the opposite way before
20:56:58 <zzo38> Sometimes that happens if you pass improper arguments to the library.
20:57:43 <int-e> zzo38: well I found my real mistake and address santizer is still complaining. so I guess that interacts badly with the library (it's an OpenCL thing)
20:58:34 <zzo38> Sometimes the mistake is actually in the library; it is not always your own mistake.
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21:02:23 <int-e> It's somewhat interesting... the Intel OpenCL runtime reads from the zero page, and the nvidia one doesn't even show up to the party, if I enable the address sanitizer.
21:04:48 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1038537/
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21:12:00 <int-e> cute, intel's vendor id is 0x8086
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21:30:09 <zzo38> How common is programs that use SQLite databases also allowing the user to use SQL to write extensions for the program?
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21:53:30 <Sgeo> shachaf, did you real latest OOTS book?
22:12:38 <shachaf> I'm waiting to order the The Complete Olist of the Stick book
22:12:46 <shachaf> Which is a shame because it'll probably never be released?
22:18:54 <int-e> . o O ( just put $1 into a bank account so you'll be able to pay for it when it is released )
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22:29:30 <int-e> zzo38: if you care, https://github.com/google/sanitizers/issues/629 has some information relevant to why the nvidia platform "disappears" with address sanitizer.
22:30:28 <int-e> (and indeed it doesn't do that if I use ASAN_OPTIONS=protect_shadow_gap=0)
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22:59:43 <esowiki> [[TRAVEL 33]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57364 * GDavid * (+3624) Created page with "TRAVEL 33 is an esolang invented by [[User:GDavid]]. It's capable of sending information in time, even backwards therefore it's uncomputable.<br /> It got it's name from the f..."
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23:08:02 <zzo38> Is anyone on here willing to help to write the picture editor program for use with Free Hero Mesh? It should not use any libraries other than those used by Free Hero Mesh itself, ideally, but maybe there is other idea
23:15:08 <zzo38> Here is a wiki and source repository: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/wcontent The file format for the pictures is documented, and you can also look at the source codes. You can also add feature requests, bug reports, add more documentation if you want to, etc. So far I wrote all of it by myself, and expect I will continue to write most of it, but I also accept contributions if there are any.
23:19:42 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh is a program to make puzzle games.
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23:26:36 <zzo38> Are all of the documentation of the file formats sense or is something difficult to understand?
23:30:07 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh is designed for puzzle games played on a rectangular grid (no larger than 64x64), without any randomness or any timing; it is purely turn-based. Hidden information is partially supported for classes with the CF_QUIZ flag set, although it is recommended not to hide information.
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23:42:32 <int-e> @google "bio-integrity metadata"
23:42:33 <lambdabot> https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9497271/
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