00:15:58 <shachaf> "This is perhaps not the answer you are looking for, but it is indeed a programming language (it is Turing complete)"
00:16:24 <shachaf> I think Turing completeness is neither sufficient or necessary for something to be a programming language.
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02:32:37 <Sgeo_> Are .sid files turing complete? I think they may be turing complete
02:40:29 <Sgeo_> They do contain 6502 machine code. I should totally make an infinite length one
02:41:32 <shachaf> Machine code is usually not TC.
02:46:21 <pikhq> Though, by the same line of reasoning nor is C.
02:46:53 <pikhq> Just an FSM with a fairly large state.
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02:51:53 <pikhq> Not that it helps you much. Sufficiently large state makes things like a halting predicate practically infeasible even if they are theoretically permissible.
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02:55:53 <shachaf> I was wondering recently how much of the algorithmic reasoning people do doesn't really make sense in the presence of even a large upper bound.
03:19:57 <Sgeo_> I wonder if 6510 machine code could be considered turing complete if you put assumptions on what address 0 and 1 do (e.g. maybe you could send a signal to switch RAM out in a tape-like fashion)
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03:20:32 <Sgeo_> Or 6502 + special address in memory for shenanigans like that
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03:58:30 <Hooloovo0> it's not too difficult to extend the 6502 to arbitrary bit-lengths, I think
03:58:51 <Hooloovo0> well, might get silly after a bit, but I've worked with a 24-bit version a bit
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06:22:04 <Sgeo> Minima.sid by Wyndex seems to play forever
06:22:31 <Sgeo> STIL gives a shorter duration though. If someone were to make a song that infinitely varies.. hmm
06:23:58 <Sgeo> (STIL = text file describing all the music in HVSC (High Voltage SID Collection))
06:28:24 <Sgeo> Oh huh STIL isnt where players get song lenght, there's a Songlengths.txt
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12:45:36 <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm going to try to use it as a computer terminal <-- now you're reminding me of when _i_ was about twelve...
12:46:03 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57416&oldid=57351 * YamTokWae * (+56)
12:46:16 <Taneb> oerjan: the difference, I expect, is I have a full time job
12:46:22 <oerjan> and my dad brought home a printer with modem and phoned a mainframe
12:46:43 <Taneb> So I can afford all the receipt printer rolls I want
12:46:56 <Taneb> Anyway continue your story
12:47:24 <Taneb> I thought you were going to go somewhere different when I started writing my result
12:47:29 <oerjan> hm my father used to bring home used scrolls of printing paper for me to write on
12:48:44 <oerjan> this was a printer normally used for logging events at the telecom building
12:48:55 <oerjan> well they had several of them, iirc
12:49:27 <oerjan> anyway, he phoned it up and we tried out Sintran BASIC
12:50:12 <oerjan> and this was only about the second time i'd used a computer, the first time was when on holiday and someone had an Apple something.
12:50:28 <oerjan> back in approximately 1982
12:51:04 <oerjan> i'd already learned BASIC from reading a book
12:52:46 <oerjan> i think i wrote some programs on that scratch paper, without a computer :)
12:53:04 <oerjan> complex arithmetic iirc
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12:54:37 <rain1> he got 7000 stars for implementing certificate delivery in BASH https://github.com/Neilpang/acme.sh
13:04:25 * int-e is still appalled by that repo
13:04:39 <rain1> i think it counts as esoprogramming
13:05:45 <int-e> full of gems like... if [ -f "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" ]; then . "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" fi
13:05:58 <int-e> (aka configuration file parsing in bash)
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13:32:09 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57417&oldid=57416 * YamTokWae * (+1883) Finally done!
13:34:35 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+6245) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Pxem |paradigms= |author= |year=[[:Category:2008|2008]] |typesys= |memsys= |dimensions= |class= |refimpl= |majorimpl= |dialects= |influence= |in..."
13:35:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57419&oldid=57398 * YamTokWae * (+11) /* P */ Pxem added!
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13:44:15 <wob_jonas> Asimov, or whoever was the editor of the short story "Mother Earth", has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian": "https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v43n03_1949-05_cape1736#page/n58/mode/1up" . Don't you just love the English language and its uniformity?
13:45:35 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57420&oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+496)
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13:59:55 <arseniiv> someone reads Tom Siddel’s GC here?
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14:05:11 <arseniiv> has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian"> interesting. Could it be the case it was pronounced as a[nɪ]storian by him? I seem to hear [h] elides here and there in some cases
14:06:55 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: there's a very varied amount of initial h-dropping in various English dialect. I've asked about it previously in #esoteric, and some people pronounce initial h in every word, some drop it in lot of words.
14:11:57 <wob_jonas> I only drop English initial h in "hour, honest, honesty, honored, honorable" and possibly in "herb, heir, heirloom" (I'm undecided about those rare words)
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14:21:37 <Taneb> I pronounce the h in herb but not in heir or heirloom
14:21:43 <Taneb> But then again I pronounce the b in debt
14:25:50 <wob_jonas> Taneb: how about all the other h words? "have, he, his, her, here, how, hand, happen, head, hear, hear, help, high, hold, home, house, half, happy, hard, health, heart, hey, himself, history, hit, hope, hour, however, human, hair, handle, hang, hate, heat, heavy, hell, herself, hi, hide, hospital, hot, hotel, huge, hundred, hurt, husband",
14:27:02 <FireFly> is that an exhaustive list of h words?
14:27:21 <wob_jonas> "hall, hardly, healthy, hello, hill, hire, historical, hole, holyday, honest, honey, honor, horse, host, housing, huh, hunt", and most importantly, the original example "historian"
14:27:30 <Taneb> wob_jonas: hour is the only one in that first list
14:27:46 <Taneb> honest, honor in the second list
14:27:53 <Taneb> I pronouce the h in historian
14:28:09 <Taneb> (In particular I would say "she is a historian", not "she is an historian")
14:29:01 <Taneb> But it used to be the rule at "an" went before a word beginning with "h" in all cases
14:29:52 <wob_jonas> further, "ha, habit, harm, hat, heal, heaven, height, helping, hero, highlight, highway, hip, historic, holy, hook, horrible, household, hug, hungry",
14:29:58 <Taneb> (for reference I'm a native speaker from the north-east of England with one Australian parent)
14:30:15 <Taneb> wob_jonas: none of those do I drop the h
14:31:31 <wob_jonas> and now we're getting the uncommon ones: "habitat, halfway, hallway, halt, hammer, handsome, harbor, hardware, harmony, harsh, harvest, haul, haunt, headache, headline, headquarter, healthcare, heel, helicopter, helmet, hence, herb, herd, heritage, hesitate, hike, hint, Hispanic, holder, homeland, homework, hop, horizon, hormone, horn, horror, host
14:31:31 <wob_jonas> age, hostile, humanity, humor, hunter, hurricane, hypothesis"
14:32:45 <wob_jonas> I'm actually unsure about "heritage" too
14:33:48 <wob_jonas> Taneb: right. much of my pronunciation comes from the times when outside of English-speaking countries, language courses teached received pronunciation.
14:34:16 <Taneb> I pronounce the h in all of that last list as well
14:34:40 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I don't think of myself having much of a dialect and then I realise that I really do
14:35:08 <Taneb> I just hear enough not-English people that a lot of English accents sound quite similar to me
14:35:20 <wob_jonas> Taneb: with which vowel do you pronounce "can't dance"?
14:36:52 <Taneb> I don't know the IPA, but a long a, almost "ar" for "can't", and a short a for "dance"
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14:38:13 <Taneb> If you remind me about nine tonight BST, I'll send you a recording
14:38:19 <Taneb> (going to the cinema after work)
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14:39:26 <wob_jonas> Taneb: do you pronounce them with the first vowel of "father", or the vowl of "cat", or neither?
14:40:17 <Taneb> can't and father are similar
14:40:29 <Taneb> cat and dance are very slightly different?
14:40:32 <wob_jonas> recording doesn't help much alone, because it's only all the vowels in relation that are important, not the individual realziations
14:41:03 <HackEso> can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast
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14:41:10 <Taneb> I think I kind of cut the vowel short in dance but not in cat?
14:42:04 <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English
14:42:17 <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
14:44:11 <wob_jonas> (Sorry, I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's popsci book, and he makes it like God created the earliest particles, then someone else who sounds like Morgoth created the Higgs-boson in an attempt to ruin the perfect symmetry of God's creation,
14:45:25 <wob_jonas> but then when God asked Morgoth why he did that, Morgoth lied that he only did it to make the world richer, and God knew that while Morgoth thinks it's a lie, it's actually true, because Morgoth could do nothing that He didn't already anticipate, and the Higgs boson actually makes the world complicated but beautiful in a way that nobody but God him
14:45:39 <wob_jonas> and that's how the stars and physicists were born.)
14:47:32 <wob_jonas> (So now if the physicists are working hard enough to defeat the Higgs-boson, then they will see it, and God lets them see it and the original simple beauty behind it too and how the two together allowed to make nucleuses and stars and physicists to get created.)
14:53:29 <wob_jonas> (Some of that is what I'm imagining into the book though, not what Lenderman actually wrote.)
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15:29:17 <arseniiv> is that an exhaustive list of h words? => lol
15:30:19 <wob_jonas> it's actually a representative list from a reputable source
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15:34:10 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English // must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism => IMO it should go to the quotes :D
15:34:28 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
15:35:33 <ep100> have any of you used the Java/Scala parsing library Parboiled? any thoughts?
15:35:47 <HackEso> Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
15:36:02 <HackEso> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat
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15:38:43 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
15:39:28 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I'm not here, and I can't be trusted with HackEso anyway, but if you're still here and could guide arseniiv in using HackEso, that would be great
15:39:57 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: basically you can just say `addquote <nick> message <nick> message
15:40:16 <wob_jonas> but make sure the quote is worthy to keep without context, or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context
15:40:44 <wob_jonas> it's an art rather than a science, and I'm not very good at it, although there are some quotes I added, and some I said
15:40:50 <arseniiv> `addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
15:40:52 <HackEso> 1327) <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
15:41:06 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I hope I made it right and worthy :)
15:41:27 <arseniiv> I do believe quoting is an art, too, yeah
15:43:22 <wob_jonas> oerjan: hackeso doesn't reply to my private messages. is this deliberate?
15:43:27 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes
15:44:14 <arseniiv> or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context => totally agree. I have seen many quotes in the wild, which were concluded by an author’s reaction. It’s weird and uncomfortable
15:45:43 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: ftr HackEso responds me to "`quote"
15:45:56 <HackEso> desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.
15:46:18 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\000" quotes
15:46:19 <HackEso> 11610 <arseniiv> addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism.11589 <oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter.11585 <oerjan> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft.11580 <alercah> addquote
15:46:36 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | perl -we ""
15:46:41 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes
15:46:42 <HackEso> 11610 <arseniiv> addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism \ 11589 <oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 <oerjan> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580 <alercah> ad
15:47:22 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>"
15:47:43 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*erjan[^>]*>"
15:47:58 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*erjan[^>]*>"
15:47:59 <HackEso> 11589 <oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 <oerjan> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11551 <oerjan> addquote <shachaf> Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old <Taneb> shachaf, not at all <Taneb> I would never suggest that it\'s getting slightly old \ 11346
15:48:06 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>"
15:48:08 <HackEso> 11439 <wob_jonas> addquote <ais523> oh, we also need a Donate effect <ais523> Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we\'ll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes \ 10204 <b_jonas> addquote <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI \ 9620 <b_jonas> addquote <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually u
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15:48:42 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+3
15:48:43 <HackEso> 9620 <b_jonas> addquote <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L\xe2\x88\x9e metric (they can go eight ways) \ 9236 <b_jonas> addquote <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps \ 9234 <b_jonas> addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
15:49:12 <wob_jonas> HackEso not trusting me enough to respond in private message is probably a feature, not a bug
15:49:58 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+5
15:49:59 <HackEso> 9234 <b_jonas> addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
15:50:11 <wob_jonas> after that was when they taught me about `? quoteformat
15:50:32 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -c 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes
15:50:33 <HackEso> hg log: option -c not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options ([+] can be repeated): \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies show copied files \ -k --keyword TEXT [+] do case-insensitive search for a given text
15:50:57 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -r 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes
15:50:58 <HackEso> 9235 <ais523> delquote 1291
15:51:07 <wob_jonas> sorry, -c would be the correct option for svn
15:53:38 <HackEso> 1295) <shachaf> please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh <Jafet> shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways)
15:53:52 <HackEso> 1200) <b_jonas> oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original \ 1221) <b_jonas> fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? <fungot> b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) <b_jonas> shachaf: different notation. -o
15:54:19 <HackEso> 1221) <b_jonas> fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? <fungot> b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) <b_jonas> shachaf: different notation. -o is logical or in find, but it's linear implication in linear logic \ 1269) <b_jonas> (make is an esoteric language) <prooftechnique> b_jonas: Most esolangs I've seen have more comprehensive docs than make \ 1273) <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping
15:55:03 <HackEso> 1273) <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. \ 1318) <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth \ 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \
15:55:17 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 1327) <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
15:56:02 <wob_jonas> I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad?
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15:58:25 <arseniiv> I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? => maybe not
16:02:44 <arseniiv> (I mean it could be incomparable to both)
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17:08:22 <ais523> suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts (I'm thinking of making a conlang-inspired esolang and there are good reasons for it to need an alphabet of its own)
17:08:54 <ais523> what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays
17:09:24 <ais523> presumably the characters would be in a private-use area somewher?
17:16:32 <bradcomp> Can you maybe just fork an Open Source font to get a template, and then just completely rework the typeface to be what you want?
17:17:30 <ais523> the characters in this are intentionally very simple and line-segmenty, though
17:17:34 <ais523> so I think I'd want something much simpler than most fonts
17:17:53 <ais523> a simple vector font would likely be enough, no hinting (perhaps it'd benefit from some kerning)
17:19:03 <arseniiv> ais523: for font creation I suppose you could use something like glyphr studio, last time I seen it was JS-based HTML thingie and it was able to export to some of usual font formats
17:19:22 <arseniiv> I have it installed but I haven’t played with it
17:19:37 <arseniiv> it uses Unicode as an encoding
17:19:55 <ais523> hmm, "JS-based HTML thingie" seems fairly discouraging, but I guess it might be usable
17:19:59 <bradcomp> arseniiv that looks really cool!
17:20:16 <arseniiv> ais523: bradcomp: it should be able to do kerning AFAIR
17:20:50 <arseniiv> also Inkscape can create SVG fonts but I think its UI for it is way messier
17:22:17 <ais523> "up to U+FFFF", ugh, that could be a bit of a problem; the private use area is getting fairly crowded already
17:22:55 <ais523> I don't even know which bits won't clash with other peoples' little-used languages
17:25:03 <arseniiv> why not make a standard latinization of your conlang and use characters from that to represent characters of an actual conscript in the font? Ligatures should make for conscript’s interesting traits like custom diactiric behavior, vowel carriers and like
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17:26:18 <arseniiv> then if one uses this special font, it looks nice, and if one uses an unaware font, it is magically a transcription
17:27:13 <ais523> arseniiv: well one feature of this is that it doesn't really correspond to English in any real way
17:27:26 <ais523> it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet, come to think of it, although it's not quite the same as that either
17:27:54 <ais523> I guess I could replace characters from an /actual/ syllabary, assuming it was large enough
17:32:45 <arseniiv> you could use font ligatures to make e. g. gu gi ga gen ger tu ti ta correspond to separate glyphs than glyphs for g, t, u, i etc.
17:33:18 <arseniiv> I hope ligaturing in fonts is advanced enough
17:34:52 <ais523> I can't work on it right now
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17:35:05 <ais523> I wasn't considering a pronunciation for it up to this point
17:35:09 <ais523> although I guess having one might be useful
17:35:20 <ais523> the original concept was entirely as a written language
17:35:24 <ais523> you might as well try to pronounce brainfuck
17:35:46 <ais523> hmm, there surely must be a brainfuck derivative intended to be pronounceable, there's a brainfuck derivative for basically everything
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17:45:43 <arseniiv> ais523: the original concept was entirely as a written language => ah I see. If there would be less than ~30 glyphs, it could have been passed for a consonantal alphabet, but as you’ve said it’s meant to be a syllabary, then it probably has much more
17:46:01 <ais523> well, it's a sort of compositional syllabary
17:46:23 <ais523> each character has two components that are orthogonal to each other
17:46:33 <ais523> treating it as a spoken language, I guess you'd interpret that as consonant/vowel
17:47:19 <arseniiv> something like abugida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida then
17:47:47 <ais523> yes, I think an abugida is the right term
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20:53:31 <oren> why is freenode so buggy lately
20:54:29 <oren> int-e: today SASL was timing out every time for several hours
20:54:43 <ais523> they're probably making a lot of code changes while trying to fend off the spambot attack
20:54:48 <int-e> "We are experiencing issues with services and SASL. If you can't connect, try to temporarily disable SASL"
20:55:00 <int-e> oren: that's from the topic in #freenode *shrugs*
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20:56:59 <\oren\> int-e: you can't connect from AWS to freenode without SASL tho
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21:53:59 <wob_jonas> good to see you. let me read the log
21:54:48 <wob_jonas> guess what, arseniiv added me into the hackeso quotesdb. he's growing up to become a full #esoteric regular, and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be.
21:54:57 <HackEso> 2018-08-22 21:54:56.893904170+00:00
21:55:49 <wob_jonas> oh good. in the afternoon, for some reason hackeso wouldn't reply to my private messages. I decided it was a feature, because I can't be trusted. but now he does answer private messages
21:57:07 <wob_jonas> "suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts" => you should look at http://www.omniglot.com/ , and the "Constructed scripts" heading in particular. admittedly, that's a rather biased personal selection by the omniglot website maintainer, but still.
21:57:50 <wob_jonas> I have two completely undocumented alphabets I have created, and some attempts to map writing Hungarian or English into them.
21:58:20 <wob_jonas> "what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays" => paper and pencil at first. the font part is difficult indeed.
22:01:06 <wob_jonas> "it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet" => oh yes, there are a few of those too. like the set of 306 syllable symbols in https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1986 , with no writing system for any language mapping to it yet.
22:03:09 <wob_jonas> the constructed alphabets are created are more intended to be used as traditional alphabets, not sylabillaries, although one of them also has an extended version that could be used for some APL-like notation with over 256 possible symbols combined from a somewhat simple traditional system of backspacing and overprinting one of the few modifiers ont
22:05:10 <wob_jonas> Basically I have a set of 30 base letters, with a canon assignment of 26 of them to the 26 ascii letters for when you want a strict transliteration, but you don't have to do that, you can use other writing systems more suitable for specific languages,
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22:06:36 <wob_jonas> then 6 additional modifiers (diacritics: dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, long horizontal bar in the middle, vertical bar) that you each can overprint to each base letter, although to make it look nice you have to shift them a bit depending on which letter you put them onto;
22:08:11 <wob_jonas> then I also have 16 digits, with a canonical assignment to the hexadecimal digits, but which you can also combine with one of the five allowed modifiers (dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, vertical bar; but NOT horizontal bar) to get extra symbols for maths or programming or even writing;
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22:09:56 <wob_jonas> plus also space (which is just the ascii "halfwidth" space used in latin script); plus 16 punctuation symbols, each of which you can combine with one of the six modifiers, but some combinations are banned because they'd either look ambiguous or very ugly; and possibly a few extra symbols that I've been experimenting with to perturb the system but t
22:11:30 <wob_jonas> The 16 punctuation symbols are: period, comma, left round parenthesis, right round parenthesis, less than, greater than, vee, wedge, minus, vertical bar, slash, backslash, equals, plus, cross, eight-pointed star (a plus and a cross overlaid with their centers exactly at the same place).
22:12:20 <wob_jonas> vertical bar with the vertical bar modifier is one of the banned combinations, dot with the dot above modifier is an allowed combination and is basically a colon, comma with dot above is basically a semicolon,
22:12:58 <wob_jonas> one of dot with middle bar modifier and minus with dot under must be a banned combination, but I haven't completely fixed the list of banned combinations, although I do have some draft versions of it.
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22:16:41 <wob_jonas> This is one of the two scripts I'm trying to invent. The other is much simpler, with only 32 symbols of which 16 are base letters and 16 have variable use, plus some modifiers that are used only as shorthand, plus a writing system for Hungarian.
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22:17:05 <wob_jonas> The big one actually stole the set of digits from the 16 base letters of the other.
22:17:51 <wob_jonas> I haven't fixed a canonical alphabetic order for any of them yet, except obviously for the 16 digits in the bigger script.
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22:43:53 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be => nope, it’s too complex :o
22:44:32 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: that's not why I can't be trusted
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23:11:17 <arseniiv> well anyway I’m not going to dive in its self-editing capabilities
23:11:54 <arseniiv> or hopefully there’s a backup somewhere
23:13:26 <fizzie> It's on top of a (D)VCS, it's easy to revert to a previous state.
23:13:42 <fizzie> (Except for the /hackenv/tmp directory.)
23:14:26 <fizzie> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
23:14:42 <wob_jonas> yeah, generally. there are some practical difficulties, but they rarely come up.
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23:33:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: here's a quickly scribbled explanation of the conscripts I'm trying to create: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Tv6YC.png
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23:35:14 <ais523> I guess what I'm doing is basically what APL did
23:35:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, have you read my previous messages on the channel by the way?
23:35:59 <wob_jonas> I mean, during while you were apparently joined
23:36:09 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, just didn't have much to say
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23:36:30 <ais523> I guess you created the alphabet first and then tried to find a use for it
23:37:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I created the 5-segment display and digits first, then extended it to hex digits, and drew it in the parenthesis style I used in the bottom, then created the Hungarian writing system for it;
23:38:29 <wob_jonas> then later I tried to create some other conscript that failed, and then I tried to create the alphabet that would eventually become the base alphabet on the top, only it was larger and more complicated,
23:39:26 <wob_jonas> and then I added the digits and the punctuation, but because of the parens in the punctutation, I decided to change the shape of the 1 and C digits to C-shaped, and some time in the meanwhile I experimented with systems of diacritics and eventually came up with this one,
23:39:53 <wob_jonas> and decided that since it's more than 256 symbols, and has lots of modified letters and modified punctuation, it's usable enough for an APL
23:40:47 <ais523> well, for an APL you really want the symbols to match what the command does more or less exactly
23:41:04 <ais523> that's why you need to create new ones if you're adding new commands
23:41:11 <wob_jonas> J uses two common diacritics on both lower and uppercase ascii letters and ascii punctuation and ascii digits, but since I don't have uppercase digits and have half the number of punctuation, but have it balanced by more diacritics, the symbol set looks APL-like enough for me
23:41:34 <shachaf> Should macros be syntactically distinct from regular function calls?
23:41:49 <shachaf> What's a good way to make the distinction? Rust uses ! but that seems too noisy to me.
23:41:55 <wob_jonas> sort of... but after a while the symbol set for APL more or less froze, and
23:41:59 <ais523> shachaf: IMO it depends on whether the macro can do things a regular function call can't
23:42:13 <shachaf> Well, that's why it's a macro, right?
23:42:28 <ais523> C uses allcaps for macros (as a convention), which brings the point across quite well… /except/ that it uses lowercase, as with regular functions, if the macro isn't doing anything weird that you need to pay attention to
23:42:45 <shachaf> Allcaps also seems too noisy to me.
23:42:51 <ais523> a macro should look like a control flow construct, really
23:42:52 <shachaf> Imagine IF, WHILE, etc. as macros.
23:43:22 <ais523> if you have a Perl-like syntax, something like barewords (no sigil) for macros, leading & for functions, would be consistent with the rest of the language
23:43:31 <ais523> but Perl dropped that, despite the inconsistency, probably because it was too noisy
23:43:55 <ais523> perhaps the rule should be something like "macros use parens around their arguments, functions don't"
23:44:04 <shachaf> Another question: Is there a language that distinguishes lvalues from rvalues explicitly rather than automatically allowing lvalues in rvalue context?
23:44:33 <ais523> shachaf: most mathematical formalisations of language do, and the syntax has leaked into some of them, such as OCaml
23:44:40 <ais523> usual syntax is ! for lvalue-to-rvalue conversion
23:44:49 <shachaf> Right, SML or OCaml or something has refs which are similar.
23:44:54 <ais523> so to increment x in OCaml, you write «x := !x + 1»
23:45:02 <shachaf> But I'm imagining a C-like language where I think it would be noisier in general?
23:45:12 <ais523> only because you mutate more in general
23:45:34 <wob_jonas> well... ruby has a strange idea of lvalues. it mostly doesn't have them, instead it has indexed-assignment and method-assignment as ordinary methods with funny names, and like ten special case syntaxes that assign to different variables
23:45:40 <ais523> Algol's weird in that it has a very fixed distinction between lvalues and rvalues but conversions like lvalue-to-rvalue and pointer dereferencing are implicit, guided by the type system
23:45:47 <shachaf> Maybe C's * operator is already similar to this.
23:46:03 <wob_jonas> compared to perl, which has real lvalues.
23:46:12 <wob_jonas> or C++, which also has real lvalues
23:46:13 <ais523> C's & operator is an abberation caused by the fact that * is normally implicit
23:46:21 <ais523> except on the LHS of an assignment
23:46:27 <ais523> so you need an & to turn it off
23:46:31 <shachaf> I'm undecided about references in C++.
23:46:37 <shachaf> "int &x = y;" doesn't seem that great.
23:46:52 <shachaf> But "int &operator[](...)" seems OK?
23:47:15 <shachaf> Maybe I'm OK with functions returning references but not taking them as arguments.
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23:47:57 <ais523> shachaf: in Algol, /all/ "variable names" are constants; thus "int ref x = y" would create a constant integer reference x pointing to the same thing as the constant integer reference y
23:48:05 <wob_jonas> sorry, it's too late and I have to sleep, but we can discuss that some time later. I like C++, including the references part, but it's complicated to explain why.
23:48:32 <wob_jonas> but I also don't think that every language necessarily needs lvalues.
23:48:39 <wob_jonas> you can have a fine language without lvalues.
23:48:59 <ais523> whereas "int x := y" is shorthand for "int ref x = «whatever the syntax for allocating memory is in Algol; I've forgotten»; x := y", which creates a constant integer reference x pointing to new memory, then copies the value pointed to by y into it
23:49:24 <shachaf> Is that stack-allocated memory or something similar?
23:50:30 <ais523> shachaf: I think there's different syntax for stack and heap allocation
23:50:50 <ais523> oh, it's "loc int" for allocating int-sized memory on the stack, I just remembered the syntax
23:53:09 <ais523> anyway, the shorthand is very convenient (and probably inspired C's declaration syntax), but unlike the rest of the language, really hides what's going on
23:54:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: you mean auto declarations in C?
23:54:17 <shachaf> The kinds of macros I'm talking about take not just their "arguments" but also the rest of the block.
23:54:38 <ais523> shachaf: like the ? we were discussing earlier?
23:54:44 <wob_jonas> as opposed to global variable declarations or definitions
23:55:06 <shachaf> I think what I have in mind is a bit more syntactic but I'm actually not sure.
23:55:19 <shachaf> I'd like to make it less macro-y but I don't know how doable that is.
23:55:37 <shachaf> You remember, this is for the language idea where all the control flow constructs work like this.
23:56:01 <ais523> there definitely seems to be a connection between control flow constructs and macros
23:56:12 <shachaf> I'd like these to be as expression-like as possible, though.
23:56:26 <shachaf> Maybe something like { x := for(for(a)); ... } can make sense for a nested loop.
23:56:42 <shachaf> (Which would mean { y := for(a); x := for(y); ... }
23:56:57 <shachaf> In this sense what they really take as an argument is more like a continuation.
23:57:21 <ais523> maybe what we want is syntax for making a continuation out of the rest of the block
23:57:39 <shachaf> { x := f(for(a), for(b)); ... }?
23:57:48 <ais523> which probably implies a parens-not-required syntax for function calls
23:57:56 <shachaf> This would impose an evaluation order probably. Which monads etc. need to do anyway.
23:58:03 <ais523> and "rest of the block" would be defined in terms of evaluation orders, so your for(a), for(b) would work just fine
23:58:15 <ais523> you do need an explicit evaluation order, as your last example shows
23:58:26 <ais523> (which could be "unspecified" but probably shouldn't be)
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23:59:27 <ais523> aren't continuations just the control flow version of SSA?
23:59:34 <shachaf> They're very similar at least.
23:59:49 <ais523> well yes, my last statement is probably an overstatement but there seems to be something of a connection
23:59:59 <shachaf> Yes, there's clearly a connection.