00:25:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Adamnew123456 * New user account
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12:12:35 <esowiki> [[Describish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58025&oldid=22178 * Pgimeno * (+590) Misc improvements
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12:27:59 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Introduce_yourself&diff=58011&oldid=58002 -- hmm, another user who can't read man pages. we'll have to be careful.
12:30:38 <esowiki> [[MineFriff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58026&oldid=58022 * B jonas * (+25) [[Category:Non-textual]]
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13:13:32 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%AE%E1%93%82%EA%B3%A7%E2%8E%94&diff=57988&oldid=46778 wtf
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13:22:57 * wob_jonas re-reads http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/git-extensions
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16:42:15 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58027&oldid=57991 * Blacksilver * (+38) color:grey on the comment
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19:37:23 <wob_jonas> hey ais523, good thing you're in. I wanted to ask something about parsing.
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19:41:45 <wob_jonas> I have some strange idea. You know how there's regular expressions with captures (I'll use perl-like as an example for now, but I know there's also posix-like ones); and there's the much more restricted parsers like C scanf or lua's patterns ("http://www.lua.org/manual/5.3/manual.html#6.4.1"), which can match a string that's a repetition of a given
19:41:45 <wob_jonas> set of characters, but not much more than that, and are absolutely unwilling to backtrack more than two or three chars, and even that only when they're in a really good mood?
19:42:31 <ais523> well, mathematical regular expressions tend to use state-sets rather than backtracking
19:43:32 <wob_jonas> Yes, I know, but this is specifically for grammars and parsers, with captures. The captures make them harder.
19:45:00 <wob_jonas> But what I'd like is a family of grammars in between these, one that I can interpret and parse with a parser that can backtrack one level, but probably not more than two. I want it to be able to backtrack one level to parse a repetition when it has a delimiter that may be multiple characters long and may have disjoint alternatives and lookaheads in
19:45:45 <wob_jonas> Eg. it should be able to match qr/(?>([abcd]*)ab)/ where [abcd]* is the repetition and ab is the delimiter,
19:46:12 <wob_jonas> but once it finds the delimiter, it won't backtrack the repetition ever, even if the regex fails to match later.
19:48:29 <wob_jonas> and delimiters for repetition with one level of backtracking for the repetition (both longest repetition and shortest repetition, so I also want to match qr/(?>([abcd]*?)ab)/ ) sounds nice, but I'm not sure what kind of backtracking I want for undoing the choice in an alternation, that is, alternation where one branch may match a prefix of what ano
19:49:08 <wob_jonas> I wonder if there's some such kind of grammar known, even in the abstract mathematical world with small alphabets that don't have to consider a practical implementation involving huge unicode character classes.
19:50:48 <wob_jonas> And I really need some sort of backtracking alternatives, because I can often change the accepted language so it never needs tricky multi-character delimiters by choosing a different delimiter that rarely appears in the quoted string, and a suitable escape method,
19:51:19 <wob_jonas> but it's more awkward to get rid of all backtracking alternatives, especially since you may want to use readable keywords whose first character could match.
19:51:52 <wob_jonas> like, I want to be able to match something that may be an integer in decimal or a floating point number in decimal, and decide which one.
19:52:57 <wob_jonas> But in some general way, so you can define grammars with special cases other than ones I hard-code, even if there's some built-in stuff for matching numbers in particular formats.
19:55:37 <wob_jonas> And let's say that I only want a subset of regular expressions, not anything outside like balanced parenthesis or perl -le'$==0,(1x$_)=~/^(|()1(?1)(?1)\2)$(?{$=++})^/,print$=for 0..13'
19:56:21 <wob_jonas> (Obviously that last one is a poster child of unlimited backtracking, so clearly I don't want that, but you get the idea.)
19:57:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm reminded of LR(1), but it's more powerful than typical regular expressions rather than less; perhaps LL(1) is the class you need
19:57:43 <wob_jonas> And I'd like the parser generator to be able to prove that there's only limited backtracking, even if this means I may have to put extra markers in the pattern when it can't prove that alone, like that atomic capture marking above that restricts the pattern from backtracking.
19:57:44 <ais523> IIRC Python's syntax is LL(1)
20:00:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: but LL(1) doesn't allow me to look forward, say, ten characters for qr/(?>[a-z]abcdefghij)/ or an unlimited number of characters. I want to be able to look ahead an unlimited number of characters, just not an unlimited depth of different lookaheads.
20:01:03 <ais523> well, it does, using temporary nondeterminism
20:01:28 <ais523> although, hmm, I think the lexer deals with those, not the parser?
20:02:08 <wob_jonas> Hmm wait, you're right. Not about the keywords, but about the temporary nondeterminism
20:02:13 <wob_jonas> I did that in one of the toy languages
20:02:35 <ais523> it's not /quite/ the case that nondeterminism is always better than backtracking
20:02:55 <ais523> but you need to be using really advanced backtracking features to make it better than nondeterminism
20:03:05 <wob_jonas> which can look ahead any number of tokens to determine if (ident0,ident1,ident2,... is an lvalue or an rvalue
20:03:38 <wob_jonas> it actually gets parsed to an lvalue, and then that lvalue gets converted to an rvalue later.
20:04:19 <wob_jonas> that one uses a yacc parser, although for handling loops and functions it uses features that a yacc parser isn't allowed to do, implemented in C++
20:04:20 <ais523> I've been using a LR(1) parser for a golfing language, which is helpful because I can look at the state transitions to see if any program is accidentally illegal in the language
20:05:23 <wob_jonas> although I'm not sure how an LL parser would do that
20:05:35 <wob_jonas> the other toy language https://esolangs.org/wiki/Scan uses an LL parser
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> I don't really know what exactly I want, but perhaps you have pointers
20:06:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: did you post anything about that analog computer minimalistic esolang?
20:06:43 <wob_jonas> (yes, I looked at Recent Changes, I know you haven't)
20:10:56 <wob_jonas> Also, in my job, my supervisor is trying to convince me to use one of these online productivity tools that require me to personally agree to some legal terms where I state that the guys hosting that will own anything anyone has done at the company. Won't happen, but I'll have to spend a few hours reading those stupid legal terms so I can actually c
20:10:56 <wob_jonas> onvince her why I don't want to do that. They tried that at my previous company too, and there I managed to convince them it was a bad idea.
20:11:10 <wob_jonas> This one's a different one, but there's a whole lot of them online.
20:12:08 <ais523> does the company have its own lawyers? if so, you might want to let them know what's going on
20:12:35 <wob_jonas> I don't care about the terms that say that they can suddenly start charging fees for their services, because they can't enforce those, but I don't like the ones that host company data and want me personally to agree to give them rights to use everything anyone else in the company worked on.
20:12:37 <ais523> what is your job, anyway?
20:13:04 <ais523> it sounds like you can't legally agree to those terms because they contradict the terms in your employment contract that the company owns the work you do for them
20:14:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: In this job, the company is making a digital electronics control system for some factory engineering system, and I'm working on the GUI that we make and that the operators in the factory will use to know about the state and partly control that control system and what the machines are doing.
20:15:00 <ais523> what OS are these things running? something standard or something custom?
20:15:15 <wob_jonas> Not to me. It's not a really good job for me, but I consider it somewhat temporary.
20:16:17 <ais523> I mean, it makes sense that the job exists
20:16:33 <wob_jonas> The control system is running on some sort-of-custom embedded hardware by Siemens where the compiler can prove a deterministic bound on the reaction time, but the GUI runs on Windows, in some huge software framework also made by Siemens, and it communicates with the control system through an ethernet LAN.
20:17:04 <wob_jonas> The control system CPUs also communicate with some measurement devices, on another LAN, to which only they and the measurement devices have access, to guarantee the latency.
20:17:38 <wob_jonas> The framework is rather well designed, but also limited so you can't mess up too much, and to some extent optimized for people other than CS geeks like me, which is annoying.
20:18:30 <wob_jonas> This company is sort of the opposite of the previous one in that it's mostly engineers working there, with too few CS people, so now it was trying to hure any computer guy or programmer available,
20:19:02 <wob_jonas> but in exchange that means that most coworkers I could talk to use some cryptic jargon, talking about electronics hardware all the time, and I'm not interested in that at all.
20:19:15 <wob_jonas> They're nice guys, but I just can't enjoy the whole thing.
20:19:49 <wob_jonas> So I'm trying to help them in the less boring IT automation stuff a bit.
20:23:55 <wob_jonas> And as for back for the legal stuff, on one hand, the project manager and bosses might have the right to agree to give the project they're making to those providers, so if they're making me, then I could agree to those stupid conditions, but that doesn't mean that I want to be personally responsible for that.
20:24:43 <wob_jonas> So I'd rather try to convince them otherwise, partly by telling them about the other stupid tool that the managers wanted me to use at the previous job,
20:25:56 <wob_jonas> and partly by (sign) spending my time reading the boring contract and finding something I can directly point to, rather than just the vague stuff where they say they'll update their whole legal agreement once every week and I have to agree to the new agreement to continue to work with, and obviously I won't have the time to read the new agreement e
20:25:56 <wob_jonas> very time I actually want to do some useful work with the project.
20:28:15 <wob_jonas> It's ugly both because it's for work and because it's a service abroad, whereas eg. my mobile phone providers or internet providers or bank have similar legal terms, but they're limited in how they can change and apply them by the laws of Hungary that I can actually enforce at small claims court if I need to.
20:29:16 <wob_jonas> If a random foreign provider gets access to some data with their software, and there's a company I'm working to involved, then I'm in a very bad situation if they do something actually bad and I want any sort of fix.
20:31:55 <wob_jonas> Sadly I was reading a lot of such conditions for mobile phone companies and banks these days, although admittedly not only the ugly legal parts about how they have the right to use the data they collect, but the part for how much money they charge. I'm actually going to switch mobile phone providers in a month or two.
20:32:16 <wob_jonas> My current provider is changing their terms so another one is more worth for me.
20:33:27 <wob_jonas> I'm also buying a secondary mobile phone account for my grandmother, which is tricky because I have to communicate not only with the mobile phone providers but also with my grandma. I'm not sure which task is more pleasant.
20:33:55 <wob_jonas> At least the customer service guys sometimes seem like they're trying to listen to what I'm saying, and don't run out of their patience when doing that.
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22:06:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FireCubez * New user account
22:11:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58028&oldid=58011 * FireCubez * (+259)
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23:01:55 <esowiki> [[FLIPER Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58029 * FireCubez * (+1614) Created page with "The FLIPER Computer is a computational model made by [[User:FireCubez]] with 6 commands. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Position !! Action |- | F || 0 ||..."
23:19:12 <esowiki> [[FLIPER Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58030&oldid=58029 * FireCubez * (+0) /* Commands */