00:17:17 <orin> ;wa time in santa clara
00:44:50 <arseniiv> no one seems to want a forth with types
01:13:49 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59613&oldid=59610 * A * (+1) /* Loop constructs */
01:14:43 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59614&oldid=59613 * A * (-30) /* Dynamic macros */
01:15:23 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59615&oldid=59614 * A * (-50) That is enough.
01:16:34 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59616&oldid=59615 * A * (-9) /* The powerful "thing" library */
01:19:47 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59617&oldid=59616 * A * (+271) /* Instruction encipherment/decipherment */
01:23:52 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59618&oldid=59617 * A * (+125) /* Local variables */
01:29:09 <shachaf> kmc: Also I want to know about writing C APIs that don't use malloc, which seems like a more generally important thing.
01:29:20 <shachaf> I think I may have talked about that before.
01:38:09 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59619&oldid=59618 * A * (+311) /* Local variables */
01:38:42 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59620&oldid=59619 * A * (+31) /* Setting variables */
01:39:12 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59621&oldid=59620 * A * (+25) /* Unfinished list */
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01:46:27 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59622&oldid=59621 * A * (+317) /* Stacks */
01:46:43 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59623&oldid=59622 * A * (+25) /* Unfinished list */
01:51:15 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59624&oldid=59623 * A * (+538) /* Queues */
01:51:22 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59625&oldid=59624 * A * (+25) /* Unfinished list */
01:58:47 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59626&oldid=59625 * A * (+436) /* Deques */
02:00:54 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59627&oldid=59626 * A * (+1) /* Pointers */
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02:08:25 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59628&oldid=59627 * A * (+436) /* Pointers */
02:11:16 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59629&oldid=59628 * A * (+63) /* The "thing" library */
02:12:52 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59630&oldid=59609 * A * (+46) /* Difficult */
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02:17:50 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59631&oldid=59629 * A * (+19) /* Shortcut */
02:29:28 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59632&oldid=59631 * A * (+96) /* Macros */
02:29:31 <shachaf> Is there a language where the maximum amount of stack space used by a procedure is known?
02:29:51 <shachaf> Presumably it wouldn't allow unbounded recursion, but unbounded recursion is bad anyway.
02:42:49 <shachaf> Oh, gcc has -fstack-usage, which is something.
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02:43:26 <shachaf> Of course I'd want it available as a constexpr, not post-compilation data.
02:51:28 <arseniiv> ( oh guys it seems A is seriously serious about that lang :D )
02:52:44 <arseniiv> (though I did mean not what he wrote of “dynamic macros”, I meant first-class macros modifiable at runtime)
02:54:01 <arseniiv> (will they be able to implement it also… and with using subpages for the code, if it wouldn’t be stored somewhere else)
02:56:20 <arseniiv> (hopefully the wiki won’t collapse on itself from that) oh okay it’s not that interesting at all
03:00:04 <arseniiv> hm suppose we have an infinite graph placed on a plane or another euclidean space, and we have a particle in each vertex
03:01:38 <arseniiv> then pick some direction, and move each particle to the adjacent vertex closest in direction to the one picked
03:02:43 <arseniiv> as the graph is infinite, we could have countably many directions to distinguish, so could this setting be interesting in dynamics?
03:05:15 <arseniiv> for the sake of computation, one could assign various actions to various particle mergers, also we could arrange particles only in several vertices, and not in all as I have previously suggested
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03:10:55 <arseniiv> also we may forbid moving a particle if it could only move “against the flow”, as when it have ended up in a vertex with only an edge going up, and we picked to go down
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03:12:10 <arseniiv> I feel I’m writing particularly ungrammatical today, sorry
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04:29:56 <shachaf> http://www.talchas.net/tape.c -- Turing machine in C using varargs
04:30:17 <shachaf> @tell ais523 http://www.talchas.net/tape.c
04:30:18 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59633&oldid=59316 * A * (+978) New idea
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04:31:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59634&oldid=59633 * A * (+2) terrible grammar
04:32:48 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59635&oldid=59634 * A * (+1) Final fix
04:33:06 <HackEso> j4cbo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:40:31 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59636&oldid=59635 * A * (+0) /* Attempt */
04:41:02 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59637&oldid=59636 * A * (+35) /* Attempt */
04:43:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59638&oldid=59637 * A * (+21) /* Attempt */
04:45:20 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59639&oldid=59638 * A * (+1) /* Attempt */
04:48:44 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59640&oldid=59639 * A * (+0) Fit in the math operation style
04:53:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59641&oldid=59640 * A * (+30) Add more
04:55:19 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59642&oldid=59632 * A * (+35) /* Unfinished list */
04:57:04 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59643&oldid=59642 * A * (-35) /* Unfinished list */
05:14:17 <esowiki> [[EXAMPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59644 * A * (+848) Created page with "[[EXAMPL]] stands for EXAMination Programming Language. This is made by [[User:A]], and it is inspired by the mispelled word of [[User:Helen]]'s 12th edit of [[bitch]]. This..."
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05:37:35 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59645&oldid=59643 * A * (+122) /* Loop constructs */
05:38:36 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59646&oldid=59645 * A * (+84) /* Other operators */
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05:49:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EFHIII * New user account
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06:19:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59647&oldid=59641 * A * (+76) /* Attempt */
06:20:39 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59648&oldid=59647 * A * (+7) /* Attempt */
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06:49:49 <esowiki> [[EXAMPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59649&oldid=59644 * A * (-60)
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07:18:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59650&oldid=59648 * A * (-61) /* Attempt */
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07:20:34 <ais523> <shachaf> Is there a language where the maximum amount of stack space used by a procedure is known? ← this is what my PhD thesis is about, specifically designing type systems to capture this concept
07:21:22 <shachaf> Oh man, I should've read that thesis.
07:21:29 <shachaf> Why does it need to be a type system?
07:22:48 <ais523> the main reason is so that you can statically verify that everything uses bounded stack space syntactically
07:23:26 <ais523> if you're OK with having it as a static analysis, you don't need the type system (but have to allow for potential verdicts of "this isn't finitely-bounded-stack any more" as a result of changing unrelated code)
07:24:33 <ais523> shachaf said 2h 50m 25s ago: http://www.talchas.net/tape.c ← I'm suspicious about that not working on x86_64, it should be possible to write a portable version using continuation passing style; if you don't have an infinitely growing stack then you can clearly only do it using parts of the stack above the stack pointer, in which case you don't need the varargs
07:26:55 <ais523> anyway, the goal of the project which lead to my thesis was to create a compiler where a) everything was statically allocated and b) you could implement a linker without having to recompile everything (i.e. object files can be treated as black boxes)
07:27:41 <ais523> also with higher-order functions and concurrency because otherwise it's too easy
07:28:27 <ais523> (the intended end goal was compilation to hardware, with "object files" being potentially representable as physical objects that you connect together with wires)
07:28:44 <ais523> however, what I mostly discovered was negative results
07:29:47 <shachaf> Ah, I guess you need to tag function pointers with the maximum possible stack size and so on.
07:30:12 <ais523> nah, the assumption is that everything is allocated statically, thus all functions have a maximum possible stack size of 0
07:30:20 <ais523> by everything we mean /everything/, even return addresses
07:30:36 <shachaf> Oh, that's why you're worried about concurrency.
07:30:53 <ais523> but in practice, on a CPU, you could use the stack and it would likely be more memory-efficient, because you'd only be storing the locals of the functions that were actually running
07:30:55 <shachaf> That seems more extreme than what I was thinking of.
07:31:08 <ais523> right, I think you're thinking of something less extreme than what I was working on
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07:31:46 <shachaf> Also this reminds me of the thing I was thinking of with implementing cheap userspace "threads" to use two stacks.
07:31:55 <shachaf> I don't know whether anyone has implemented that.
07:32:47 <ais523> don't lightweight cooperative threads /usually/ have a different stack for each thread and no other non-shared state?
07:33:21 <ais523> there are even functions like getcontext() and setcontext() in standard libraries for making implementing this easy
07:33:43 <shachaf> Yes (though you don't want to user POSIX ucontext because it isn't very lightweight, it does a system call).
07:34:28 <ais523> this is all down to how threads and signals interact
07:34:47 <shachaf> The problem is, you keep switching stacks and you keep taking cache misses on the whole new stack
07:34:55 <ais523> if you don't have the system call, you have to deal with signal handlers potentially running on an entirely random thread
07:34:59 <shachaf> Even parts of it that don't need to be saved across context switches, like regular function calls.
07:35:26 <ais523> which in turn means that you can't temporarily disable signals to do a pselect or something
07:35:37 <ais523> (although pselect doesn't play nicely with cooperative multithreading anyway)
07:36:05 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59651&oldid=59650 * A * (-72) /* Attempt */
07:36:30 <shachaf> Getting kind of annoyed of this A's edits
07:37:55 <ais523> we could do with a rule like "incomplete computational class proofs should not be more than a paragraph long"
07:38:08 <ais523> or maybe two paragraphs
07:38:18 <ais523> (I'm thinking about my own experience with incomplete computational class proofs)
07:38:36 <ais523> the problem is that User:A seems to be overly optimistic about what makes languages TC
07:39:05 <ais523> the overly chatty style is also a problem, though, people shouldn't really be using the wiki for thinking out loud
07:39:15 <ais523> a user talk page message could likely help if we could word it correctly
07:43:23 <shachaf> Anyway this two-stack things seems pretty reasonable to me
07:43:59 <shachaf> The thread stack only needs the things that need to be stored between context switches
07:47:35 <shachaf> I don't know whether anyone's done something like that?
07:48:04 <shachaf> The more extreme version would be to have the thread stack be a static size rather than a stack.
07:48:14 <shachaf> I think LLVM does that maybe.
07:51:11 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59652&oldid=59244 * A * (-1965) Work on pastebins
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07:51:45 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59653&oldid=59652 * A * (+2) /* See Also */
07:51:58 <ais523> cooperative threading is something for which I'm unsure of the use case
07:52:13 <ais523> cooperative multithreading is useful but you still need a scheduler
07:52:22 <ais523> competitive/multiprocess threading is useful for performance reasons
07:52:33 <ais523> and coroutines are useful, but they're rather more constrained thatn cooperative threading
07:54:23 <shachaf> I mean, what I want is a nice way to express efficient concurrency in the nicest way.
07:54:33 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59654&oldid=59193 * A * (-5539)
07:57:35 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59655&oldid=59235 * A * (-10566)
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09:13:26 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59656&oldid=59246 * A * (-17536) /* Implementation */
09:14:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59657&oldid=59249 * A * (-319) Redirected page to [[User:A]]
09:35:41 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59658&oldid=59651 * A * (-1019) Give up.
09:37:36 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59659&oldid=59646 * A * (-106) /* Unfinished list */
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09:43:30 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59660&oldid=56303 * Salpynx * (-57) /* Computational class */
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11:55:23 <wob_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/command-respect/
11:55:24 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/command-respect/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
15:28:16 <HackEso> olist 1154: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:02:51 <b_jonas> I think I'm experiencing software bugs with my phone
21:05:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: i vaguely recall you had some idea about doing the quine suite challenge in perl. well now there's a bounty offer of 250 rep if someone can beat my score with a non-esolang https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/17353/
21:06:18 <oerjan> (and higher bounties if you can beat the esolang record)
21:08:51 <oerjan> my score was 1119 bytes because of the verbose lambda part so i wouldn't be surprised if perl can do better
21:09:11 <oerjan> (if you can get 3 quines at all)
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21:17:55 <b_jonas> so 250 rep for a shorter 3 quine. might be doable in perl. good to know of the bounty, thank you.
21:29:32 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
21:31:16 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: IIRC the trick wasn't that jconn would use that parenthesis, it already did, but that you kept jconn in that list even when its hoster no longer ran it <-- i'm pretty sure one of the bots got a parenthesis as prefix because i suggested it. i assume it was jconn because idris-bot was already in other channels.
21:33:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/prefixes
21:35:49 <oerjan> oh i'm wrong, jconn was in `prefixes first
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21:39:15 <oerjan> looks like it was only a bit more than a year between them. felt longer probably because of all the mess of updating fungot while the parentheses were unbalanced
21:39:16 <fungot> oerjan: it is fnord, and the government that that is what, and what that will mean, and we are all grateful to the selection of the member trustees.
21:40:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think we've been using parenthesis and brackets as the prefix of J evaluator bots, both jeval.rb and NotJack's evaluator (but not buubot) for ages, since before I convinced anyone to bring one to #esoteric
21:40:47 <j-bot> b_jonas: whose prefix is left
21:41:14 <b_jonas> > 'whose prefix is greater'
21:41:16 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use TemplateHaskell or TemplateHaskellQuotes
21:48:39 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-03-13.html#lsm is where i suggested it for idris-ircslave, which it was called initially
21:50:32 <oerjan> it used > for a while first, which collided with lambdabot
21:51:41 <lambdabot> EGLL 312120Z 10014KT 5000 -SN BKN016 BKN021 01/M01 Q0985 TEMPO 4000 SN BKN014
21:51:44 <FireFly> the J evalbots is certainly where I first encountered unmatched brackets as prefix...
21:51:54 <oerjan> fizzie: that old log has a lot of "unexpected log event :("s, although looking at the surrounding discussion that may be something a troll/spammer did
21:52:04 <FireFly> b_jonas: I've always wondered if it's inspired by how APLs use ) for various not-code commands
21:52:29 <FireFly> (which, presumably, is because it can't be the start of a valid line of code)
21:53:02 <fizzie> oerjan: What was the link again?
21:53:04 <oerjan> or i assume it was converted from codu's logs, so something may have gone wrong there
21:53:14 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-03-13.html
21:53:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: I don't know, I always used ] because J uses it as an identity verb, so most statements are actually still valid and mean the same if you prepend ] except that it undoes the part where the repl doesn't auto-print the value of assignments
21:53:35 <b_jonas> FireFly: but I can't remember if NotJack chose ) for his bot before or after that
21:53:51 <b_jonas> then somehow four other instances of my bot chose ) as the prefix, and one chose [
21:54:09 <FireFly> j-bot uses [ because tangentstorm used [ when he ran j-bot
21:54:37 <b_jonas> frankly I'm not even sure if NotJack's bot even used a short prefix
21:54:48 <b_jonas> so I might have just made up that part
21:55:02 <FireFly> but that makes sense, also now that you mention it I vaguely recall hearing that explanation before (about choosing [ and ] because they're identity)
21:55:32 <oerjan> fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-03-13.html
21:55:48 <fizzie> oerjan: The logs are a mixture of codu logs with gaps filled from my personal ones. IIRC, "unexpected log event" is approximately "didn't match any of the regexps". I'll have a look and regenerate from the sources.
21:56:05 <fizzie> Once I get home and do some dinner, anyway.
22:00:26 <oerjan> looking it raw, it seems to correspond to NAMES :#esoteric
22:00:55 <oerjan> and happens on the line after each of our op actions
22:05:44 <oerjan> fizzie: oh and it's prefixed with > instead of <. my guess is that whichever client logged that does a NAMES after mode changes to check what has changed
22:07:13 <oerjan> although the result of it isn't listed
22:15:15 <HackEso> module//A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
22:15:25 <HackEso> busy beaver growth//No one can compute the length of a wisdom entry sufficient to explain busy beaver growth. \ 1209) <ais523_> Funge-98 has half the advantages of a nomic
22:15:26 <HackEso> gopher//Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first. \ 1145) <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
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22:17:22 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59661&oldid=59612 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Example programs */ Case
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23:06:03 <oerjan> mezzacotta comic doesn't seem to be loading at all today
23:10:21 <fizzie> oerjan: Right. I could probably just ignore those in the formatted views.
23:12:14 <fizzie> Except I've left a huge mess in the local version of the repository I have. I was in the middle of migrating the zemhill BF joust stuff over to be part of the esolangs.org facilities, and then got sidetracked by something shiny, and now there's 30-odd files with uncommitted changes.
23:16:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: now you have 30 branches
23:23:09 <fizzie> It's a mixture of two entirely separate changes. I don't know how I've ended up here. I promise, I'm normally more reasonable when it comes to version control.
23:24:35 <fizzie> (Also gpg commit fails with "error: gpg failed to sign the data". I think I set this repository up to sign commits by default so that they get that little "verified" icon in GitHub, and now it's not working for some reason.
23:29:40 <fizzie> (Looks like the reason was a gpg-agent version mismatch.)
23:29:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't worry, version control lets you fix it
23:30:27 <b_jonas> heh, verified icon in GitHub
23:30:38 <b_jonas> are you also tweeting committs with a green checkmark?
23:32:52 <fizzie> I've not gone that far.
23:33:00 <fizzie> Did you know that fungot has a Twitter account?
23:33:00 <fungot> fizzie: i would be the first to have a learning and listening secretary of the
23:33:04 <fizzie> It's not been active for a long time.
23:35:20 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, can you tell me the url of your twitter account?
23:35:21 <fungot> b_jonas: but to fulfil the order given concurrently, and a number of, indeed, in the first four private members bill, the parliamentary and government work also leads jihad actions in the struggle to recruit to the full quota of staff.
23:36:35 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, with what hardness of toothbrush do you wash your teeth in the evening?
23:36:36 <fungot> b_jonas: has the hon. and learned friend the member for cardiff north ( anna mcmorrin, john mcnally, has announced the creation of
23:36:51 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
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23:51:11 <oerjan> . o O ( while no one was looking, fizzie made 30 branches. and that's terrible. )