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02:43:45 <imode> (a rare occurrence.)
03:02:34 <imode> if your queue automata have states formatted like this: (state, symbol) -> (new state, [enqueue symbol/dequeue])
03:03:08 <imode> without 'keep', you have to add new symbols to your alphabet or new states in order to encode 'keep'.
03:04:12 <imode> because you can enqueue a throwaway symbol, swap to a state that seeks to that throwaway symbol, dequeue it and swap to a new state after the desired 'keep' operation.
03:06:21 <imode> states for your queue automata still have to be a 5-tuple, too.
03:08:03 <imode> (state, symbol, new state, new symbol, enqueue/dequeue).
03:12:36 <imode> unless you encode them as seperate instructions... (state, symbol, new state, [enqueue 0/enqueue 1/dequeue])
03:12:55 <imode> that's pretty standard.
03:13:44 <kmc> how does the automaton find out the result from dequeue
03:13:52 <imode> so you'd have (state, symbol, new state, [enqueue 0/enqueue 1/enqueue blank/dequeue]).
03:14:23 <kmc> is it the 'new symbol' field
03:14:39 <imode> dequeue just throws away the top item in the queue. you already know what the item is because in order to execute the dequeue, you have to look at the top of the queue and your current state.
03:16:56 <imode> encoding a 'no-op' wouldn't be too terrible either. just roll the queue until you recognize the sequence, enqueue a blank, then seek to the blank, dequeue, and you're back where you were in a new state.
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03:25:17 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/ON3X/text something like this.
03:26:09 <imode> whup, line 11 is wrong. that first lone `1` should be replaced with a B.
04:24:07 <imode> I'm still pre-occupied with the idea of the most aesthetically pleasing model of computation. I've been oscillating between queue automata and stock turing machines.
04:25:08 <imode> both are essentially labeled transition systems with finite states.
04:25:24 <imode> and thus can be composed and stitched together fairly easily.
05:15:51 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59708&oldid=58023 * A * (+13) Simplified my implementation
07:54:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Sifoobar * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Snigl logo.png]]"
07:54:55 <esowiki> [[Snigl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59710&oldid=58475 * Sifoobar * (-48)
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09:57:12 <myname> oh dear. i am reading a flight booking confirmation and stumble across this diamond: "Special Services: OXYGEN"
09:58:12 <Taneb> myname: as much as possible I like to make sure when I fly I have oxygen
09:59:09 <myname> there also is "AIRLINE SUPPLIED OXYGEN - pending"
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12:06:14 <int-e> "Recommend extensions as you browse"... WTF, Firefox?
12:06:58 <int-e> This is getting too close to "display relevant ads as you browse".
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12:16:13 <myname> i hate it when software tries to become too smart
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12:16:50 <myname> like, MUAs tend to scan your mails for mentions of attachments and warns you if you don't have any
12:22:46 <izabera> i used to like that, but then i got to work on debuggers, and warning for 'attach' became much less useful
12:25:14 <myname> i hate that almost as much as i hate messengers that make sent code unreadable by automatically converting text into emojis
12:25:43 <int-e> I've been saved by the attachment feature often enough that I don't particularly mind it.
12:25:56 <int-e> But it is a borderline case.
12:27:29 <myname> you could just re-send it if it really matters
12:27:47 <int-e> One thing in favor of this feature is that it's not really smart (it's just looking for a fixed set of keywords) and it's not trying to get me to download or buy anything.
12:28:52 <myname> that particular symptom is not that bad, yeah, but somehow it ended up being my goto example
12:29:36 <myname> i also hate spell checkers
12:30:11 <int-e> Maybe more fundamentally, I don't have the impression that it's trying to make decisions on my behalf. This is in stark contrast to... suggesting extensions... ads... search suggestions... etc.
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13:54:53 <esowiki> [[Analogia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59711 * Ais523 non-admin * (+4983) about time I defined this and put it onto the wiki
13:55:11 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59712&oldid=59359 * Ais523 non-admin * (+14) +[[Analogia]]
13:55:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59713&oldid=59525 * Ais523 non-admin * (+15) /* A */ +[[Analogia]]
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14:23:10 <esowiki> [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59714&oldid=57645 * B jonas * (+120)
14:52:49 <orin> I hate how Slack isn't plaintext
14:53:39 <orin> a messenging system designed for real work shouldn't require ``` ``` around code
14:55:15 <orin> I've tried discord, slack, and hipchat, and all of them are inferior to IRC
15:01:04 <myname> i thought about writing an irssi-like libpurple client to better work with slack
15:05:47 <myname> like, i need some meta-tabs, man
15:06:23 <myname> i'd love to use slack more often, but i absolutely cannot let it flood me with like a dozen channels per group
15:08:13 <orin> or even, why not have a toggle switch between "send this message plaintext" and "replace :pizza: with a picture of the ninja turtles or some shit"
15:10:38 <myname> i am more okay with that way of replacing than the way msn/icq/skype/whatever other bastards do that
15:11:31 <myname> like, you cannot write i<8 without having an ice cream cone on the receiving end which might yield to something completely different than <8 if he copy&pastes it
15:11:50 <orin> slack replaces <3 with heart
15:13:54 <orin> then when you copypaste that, you get :heart:
15:14:27 <orin> rather than the actual heart emoji
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15:23:49 <esowiki> [[SORTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59715&oldid=8568 * B jonas * (+98)
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15:30:00 <wob_jonas> orin: oh nice, I haven't seen that yet. I've seen :p and :D getting replaced by smilies, and anything with an @ sign in it getting replaced by (e-mail address obscured for your protection), both of which are great to mess up code. the first one is from mibbit web-irc, the second is from gnu.org's mailing list archives web interface.
15:31:31 <wob_jonas> oh, and there was that web-based form thing that evaluates a line of J on the server for you, but if the line has a less than sign followed by a letter anywhere, then it gives an error complaining something about how it stopped a cross-site html injectino or something
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16:26:59 <orin> I hate C++ queue::pop
16:27:24 <orin> it should be named "drop", since it doesn't return the removed element
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16:29:16 <wob_jonas> orin: there's a reason why it doesn't return the removed element, a C++-specific one; and it shouldn't be called drop, pop is fine because it pops just the one topmost element, just like how std::deque::pop_front and std::deque::pop_back pops just the one front or back element resp.
16:29:50 <wob_jonas> drop would do something with the whole stack, probably drop it to the floor so the elements end up getting all mixed up and you can't reconstruct the original order, like in that IOCCC submission
16:30:38 <wob_jonas> http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2001_westley that is
16:31:05 <orin> but it doesn't "pop" anything
16:31:11 <orin> it drops the removed element
16:31:27 <orin> you have to return it for it to be a "pop"
16:31:48 <wob_jonas> it's pop because the top element is removed from the stack
16:32:19 <wob_jonas> a toaster that ejects the toast with such velocity that you can't catch it still counts as popping the toast, even if you don't get your toast nicely on your plate, but landing on the floor instead
16:32:39 <wob_jonas> (those toasters might only exist in cartoons, but still)
16:33:14 <wob_jonas> heck, even with a deck of cards a magician might pop the deck by making the top card fly away to the floor, and not catch it on a sword if that's not required for the trick
16:33:29 <orin> C++'s usage of the word "pop" is inconsistent with every other language's native "pop" methods
16:33:54 <wob_jonas> orin: what every other language, and how many of those methods even existed before early forms of C++ containers?
16:34:54 <wob_jonas> I use pop in the sense of discarding the top element at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded_Arithmetic , but let me try to find a more independent source
16:35:11 <orin> well for starters Lisp
16:35:21 <wob_jonas> where does lisp have a pop method?
16:35:55 <orin> http://jtra.cz/stuff/lisp/sclr/pop.html
16:36:00 <wob_jonas> it has a car function to return the top element, and a cdr function for non-destructively discard the top element
16:36:29 <orin> pop works on a cell
16:37:40 <wob_jonas> ok, that macro in the HUGE cltl library https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node149.html is admittedly possibly older than C++ containers
16:38:00 <wob_jonas> let me look up TAOCP ch. 2 for how it uses pop
16:39:25 <orin> I mean forth uses DROP to mean, remove an element from the stack and discard it
16:39:37 <orin> forth is definitely older than C++
16:39:53 <wob_jonas> and? it doesn't use "pop" in a different sense, does it?
16:40:01 <j4cbo> wob_jonas: the PDP-6 in 1964 had PUSH and POP instructions
16:40:17 <j4cbo> where POP specifically transfers a value to a register
16:40:17 <wob_jonas> j4cbo: ok, now that's a better example
16:41:00 <wob_jonas> 6502 gets closed but I think the pop instructions are called PL, where does that come from incidentally?
16:41:33 <orin> yeah probaby pull
16:42:56 <orin> can't be having a four-character instruction name lol
16:42:59 <wob_jonas> (I'm not sure about the ARM by the way, I don't recall its mnemonics)
16:43:08 <wob_jonas> orin: sure, but it could be PP or PO or something instead
16:45:51 <orin> Actually what they could have done to avoid the entire issue with copy cost and stuff is
16:45:54 <wob_jonas> Knuth 2.2 is inconclusive, from a quick glance
16:46:21 <orin> have queue::pop() be remove an element
16:46:47 <orin> and have queue::pop(&x) be remove and store it into x
16:47:12 <orin> rather than return
16:48:23 <orin> this would be totally consistent with assembly language usage of pop
16:48:54 <orin> and also exception safe
16:50:27 <wob_jonas> orin: http://www.ioccc.org/1991/brnstnd.hint DJB's entry implements a stack-based esolang, the description says "d: drop (pop) top of i stack", as in the command "d" discards the top element
16:50:54 <wob_jonas> so at least some respectable people use "pop" that way too
16:51:11 <wob_jonas> respectable people other than whoever made that part of the C++ stdlib that is
16:52:04 <wob_jonas> the description at https://esolangs.org/wiki/GolfScript also describes a command as "Pop, discard"
16:52:36 <esowiki> [[Analogia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59716&oldid=59711 * Oerjan * (+5) Surprisingly not policy
16:53:01 <wob_jonas> I think "pop" is just used both ways
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17:19:53 <fizzie> The Befunge-93 spec uses "pop" as the name of the $ "discard topmost element of stack" instruction.
17:19:57 <fizzie> So you're in good company.
17:20:06 <fizzie> Granted, personally I've always called that instruction "drop".
17:21:16 <fizzie> (Where "as well" means pop.)
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17:40:20 <esowiki> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59717&oldid=59716 * Ais523 * (+180) we can have circularity of the term being integrated, but not the term it's integrated with respect to (at least, as long as we want the language to stay deterministic and avoid values that never change because they have no reason to)
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17:44:19 <fizzie> Oh, and many x87 FPU instructions have a "...P" variants that say they "pop" the register stack, meaning discarding the top element.
18:08:36 <esowiki> [[ElemScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59718&oldid=59498 * Areallycoolusername * (+357)
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18:34:38 <int-e> . o O ( programming is understanding negations. :P )
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19:10:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Analogia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59719 * Ais523 * (+583) /* Did I use the right derivative symbol? */ new section
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21:04:54 <esowiki> [[A1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59720&oldid=51758 * Orby * (+0)
21:41:25 <b_jonas> oh, there's something I could ask here
21:41:58 <b_jonas> apparently google is finally starting a site in Hungary with developers. there were plans for this like ten years ago already, but eventually they cancelled it.
21:42:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: there are some people on this channel who work in google. can you comment on this thing?
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21:43:14 <shachaf> I suspect fizzie cannot comment on this thing.
21:44:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe someone else on the channel can
21:44:38 <b_jonas> there are, I think, three or four people working at google here, I just don't recall who exactly
21:45:14 <shachaf> I mean, I suspect that people working at Google cannot comment on that kind of thing publicly.
21:51:26 <j4cbo> I used to work at google
21:51:43 <j4cbo> commenting on things was generally a big no-no
21:51:57 <j4cbo> except for the team whose job it is to do so
21:52:16 <j4cbo> (commenting on things publicly, that is)
21:53:30 <shachaf> i,i the team whose job it is to do the big no-nos
21:53:47 <b_jonas> and that team is the marketing team?
21:55:32 <shachaf> I assume it's teams with names like communications or public relations or investor relations or something. And I guess also marketing, but I doubt they'd talk about offices.
21:56:04 <b_jonas> "investor relations"? I'm not an investor, but sure
21:56:13 <shachaf> I also used to work at Google but I don't really know any specifics about these things other than that they exist.
21:56:26 <b_jonas> that's a lot of divisions by the way
21:56:49 <j4cbo> I recall being told many times that a reporter asks you to talk about anything, decline to comment and direct them to press@google.com
21:57:02 <j4cbo> (I know you’re not a reporter either, but)
22:00:25 <shachaf> b_jonas: You could be an investor if you wanted to.
22:00:58 <shachaf> I have some small amount of exposure to GOOG, I guess, though I don't own any directly.
22:01:49 <b_jonas> oh, that's true, I could be an investor indirectly by buying funds backed by the stock market
22:08:41 <fizzie> I think I wouldn't be supposed to comment, if I knew anything, which I don't.
22:09:05 <b_jonas> so since you don't know anything, you can comment?
22:09:20 <shachaf> Not knowing anything is in fact a comment.
22:09:43 <fizzie> I guess it's a bit of a comment.
22:10:03 <fizzie> I was probably supposed to say that I can neither confirm nor deny, which would be equally true.
22:10:40 <shachaf> i,i I can neither confirm nor deny, nor not confirm nor deny.
22:11:13 <fizzie> At least one reason why I shouldn't comment is that it would be material nonpublic information, and telling it to anyone could constitute tipping. (I had the occasion to read our insider trading policy recently.)
22:11:36 <shachaf> Hmm, insider trading laws in Europe are pretty different from in the US.
22:11:43 <shachaf> I guess you're probably bound by both.
22:12:21 <b_jonas> I've no clue how insider trading laws work at all, anywhere
22:12:37 <shachaf> You gotta read Money Stuff
22:12:39 <fizzie> Probably. The existence of an Insider Trading Policy is public, by the way -- it's section 3 of https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct/
22:13:05 <shachaf> Here are some laws for insider trading: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-08-12/the-10-laws-of-insider-trading
22:13:34 <shachaf> Law #1, don't do it, is probably the most important one to know, but the others are pretty relevant too.
22:14:09 <fizzie> "If you didn’t insider trade, don’t forget and accidentally confess to insider trading."
22:14:25 <j4cbo> best thing about leaving google: no more blackout windows
22:15:22 <j4cbo> (the existence of which is also public, buried in the above insider trading policy)
22:15:48 <shachaf> Blackout windows are useful when you want to sleep during the daytime.
22:16:06 <b_jonas> j4cbo: presumably those can be seen from public streets
22:16:23 <fizzie> The lack of them was the #1 complaint from university visitors in the summertime in Finland.
22:16:25 <b_jonas> what does a blackout window mean?
22:16:31 <shachaf> b_jonas: (A blackout window is a time period that you're not allowed to trade Google stock during.)
22:16:44 <shachaf> That is an awkward sentence.
22:17:09 <b_jonas> in that case they probably can't be seen from public streets, despite that other windows usually can
22:17:34 <j4cbo> it’s not a google (or alphabet) specific term
22:20:26 <b_jonas> (and other blackouts usually can)
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22:58:33 <shachaf> I was sad about sourcereal going down so I'm rehosting it at http://sour-cereal.com/
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23:05:10 <b_jonas> I should download more valuable websites to potentially be able to do this -- not necessarily host them, but also give the backup to someone else who hosts it
23:05:23 <b_jonas> currently I have too few downloaded, and most of them are out of date too
23:05:28 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59721&oldid=58697 * BradensEsolangs * (+33)
23:05:33 <b_jonas> and lots of candidates for what to download
23:05:47 <b_jonas> I also have a few that I should download and reformat and host or distribute in a saner format
23:06:04 <shachaf> I downloaded someone's website recently after he died. :-(
23:06:14 <shachaf> I'm keeping a copy just in case, because it's full of interesting things.
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