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01:13:33 <shachaf> orin: c strings are kind of scow, don't you think
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01:17:35 <kmc> also hi shachaf
01:22:58 <orin> shachaf: well yeah
01:23:29 <orin> shachaf: I forget how fortran handles strings
01:23:47 <orin> shachaf: but i vaguly recall them being better
01:24:29 <ais523> does fortran even have strings?
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01:27:43 <fizzie> From what I recall, it's usually fixed-maximum-length things.
01:27:43 <orin> ais523: they are bounds checked
01:27:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Interfrac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60364&oldid=60356 * Ais523 * (+677) mention our computational class conclusions
01:28:30 <ais523> now I'm wondering if COBOL has strings
01:28:40 <ais523> presumably it does for things like employee names
01:29:05 <ais523> COBOL is basically SQL except it's trying to be a complete programming language and isn't as declarative
01:31:02 <fizzie> Pascal strings are the famous kind, with a prefix byte for length.
01:31:46 <fizzie> I think later that's called a ShortString.
01:32:29 <orin> I think ideal prefix size is a 24 bit integer
01:32:50 <orin> too bad modern processors don't have support for those
01:33:29 <ais523> what's the correct alignment for one of those, anyway? first byte falls on a 32-byte boundary?
01:33:58 <ais523> if so, it's one of the best arguments for little-endian storage that I've heard (as that would then let you do all computations on 24-bit integers, other than writing them to memory, using 32-bit primitives)
01:34:17 <ais523> allegedly some C compilers use the name "short long int" for a 24-bit integer
01:34:38 <orin> well i mean on a 6502, you do any length integer by using ADC
01:34:47 <ais523> 6502 is an 8-bit processor
01:34:51 <ais523> x86 has adc too, I think
01:35:04 <ais523> although it's rarely used because normally your integers aren't large enough to need to split them up over separate instructions
01:36:03 <orin> if x86 has adc then that is the best way to do bigint
01:36:19 <zzo38> C strings are used even in stuff other than C
01:36:24 <fizzie> Incidentally, recently came across a blog post that had some microbenchmarks suggesting on recent x86-64 processors (let's say anything Sandy Bridge onwards), unaligned memory access no longer has a performance penalty.
01:36:57 <fizzie> At least for sequential access.
01:37:08 <zzo38> Does x86-64 have fast endianness conversion? (What I know is that MMIX does, but I don't know if x86 does.)
01:37:22 <fizzie> (For random access, presumably it still makes it more likely to straddle two cache lines.)
01:37:28 <zzo38> (I also don't know if RISC-V has)
01:37:41 <orin> wow x86-64 DOES havs an adc instruction
01:37:50 <fizzie> (I guess that's technically "infinitely more likely", since aligned access never will.)
01:37:53 <fizzie> Of course it has an adc.
01:37:59 <orin> ADC r64, r/m64
01:38:03 <ais523> `` echo '__int128_t f(__int128_t a, __int128_t b) { return a+b; }' | gcc -S -o /dev/stdout -x c /dev/stdin | fgrep -v '.'
01:38:07 <HackEso> f: \ pushq%rbp \ movq%rsp, %rbp \ pushq%rbx \ movq%rdi, %rax \ movq%rsi, %r8 \ movq%rax, %rsi \ movq%rdx, %rdi \ movq%r8, %rdi \ movq%rsi, -32(%rbp) \ movq%rdi, -24(%rbp) \ movq%rdx, -48(%rbp) \ movq%rcx, -40(%rbp) \ movq-32(%rbp), %rcx \ movq-24(%rbp), %rbx \ movq-48(%rbp), %rax \ movq-40(%rbp), %rdx \ addq%rcx, %rax \ adcq%rbx, %rdx \ popq%rbx \ popq%rbp \ ret
01:38:34 <ais523> compilers even generate it
01:38:42 <ais523> (although all the spilling going on there is /really/ suspicious)
01:38:45 <fizzie> Come on, stick some optimization flags in there.
01:38:48 <ais523> oh, I forgot to use optimization flags
01:39:02 <ais523> `` echo '__int128_t f(__int128_t a, __int128_t b) { return a+b; }' | gcc -S -O3 -o /dev/stdout -x c /dev/stdin | fgrep -v '.'
01:39:03 <HackEso> f: \ movq%rdi, %r9 \ movq%rsi, %r10 \ addq%rdx, %r9 \ adcq%rcx, %r10 \ movq%r9, %rax \ movq%r10, %rdx \ ret
01:39:27 <fizzie> It would be even better if this IRC client formatted it without inverse-I tabs.
01:39:50 <fizzie> `` echo '__int128_t f(__int128_t a, __int128_t b) { return a+b; }' | gcc -S -O3 -o /dev/stdout -x c /dev/stdin | fgrep -v '.' | perl -pe 's/\s+/ /g'
01:39:51 <HackEso> f: movq %rdi, %r9 movq %rsi, %r10 addq %rdx, %r9 adcq %rcx, %r10 movq %r9, %rax movq %r10, %rdx ret
01:40:06 <ais523> surely it's possible in five?
01:40:39 <ais523> %rdx is the LSD of the input, but the MSD of the output
01:40:46 <ais523> so you do need six instructions
01:41:06 <ais523> presumably gcc is using %r9 and %r10 as temporaries because they're caller-saved
01:42:14 <fizzie> By the way, GCC accepts - for /dev/std{in,out}.
01:42:31 <ais523> oh, clang can do it in four
01:42:38 <ais523> by overwriting the input arguments, I should have thought of that
01:43:09 <ais523> `` echo '__int128_t f(__int128_t a, __int128_t b) { return a+b; }' | clang -S -O3 -o /dev/stdout -x c /dev/stdin | fgrep -v '.'
01:43:10 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: clang: command not found
01:43:22 <fizzie> Haven't installed it there.
01:43:35 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ cmd="${1-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
01:43:39 <fizzie> (Clang is okay with dashes as well.)
01:43:43 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
01:44:04 <fizzie> Those are nicely divergent.
01:44:12 <ais523> what does rnooodl do, anyway
01:44:29 <orin> `` echo "noodl"
01:44:32 <orin> `` echo "noodl"
01:44:36 <orin> `` echo "nooooodl"
01:44:39 <fizzie> Randomizes the number of "o"s in that nick, I think?
01:44:41 <fizzie> Something silly like that.
01:44:43 <orin> `` echo "nooo0oodl"
01:44:51 <orin> `` echo "nooodl"
01:44:55 <orin> `` echo "nooodl"
01:45:37 <ais523> so the fundamental difference is that ``` uses a subshell, `` uses an eval
01:45:59 <ais523> I'm not sure offhand why this difference would matter, though
01:46:10 <zzo38> ais523: There is a few other difference too, such as ``` specifying the C locale, and `` specifying a different timer format
01:46:19 <ais523> yes, but those aren't fundamental
01:46:40 <zzo38> (I put in ``` (without rnooodl) in order that it would set the C locale.)
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01:47:15 <pikhq> en_NZ.UTF-8 is an oddly specific choice.
01:47:26 <ais523> I think it was there to serve as a talking point?
01:47:28 <fizzie> As with everything on that bot, it's a kind of joke.
01:47:42 <fizzie> I've propagated it forward from Gregor.
01:47:45 <pikhq> Okay granted, it _is_ HackEgo.
01:47:57 <ais523> how many strings even differ in en_NZ?
01:48:18 <ais523> the vast majority of packages that even bother to give different spellings for English variants tend to concentrate on en_US and en_GB
01:48:27 <HackEso> real: 0m0.001s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.000s
01:48:34 <HackEso> Sun Mar 10 01:48:34 UTC 2019
01:48:43 <HackEso> \ real0m1.027s \ user0m0.000s \ sys0m0.020s
01:49:27 <pikhq> I'd expect 99% of the time it's just falling back to C.
01:49:40 <ais523> no, it'll fall back within the en family
01:49:47 <ais523> LANG=C has some very distinctive messages
01:49:50 <fizzie> I think the TIMEFORMAT is there to avoid hard tabs in the output.
01:50:00 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/nonexistent': No such file or directory
01:50:09 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/nonexistent': No such file or directory
01:50:14 <HackEso> real: 1m8.856s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.020s
01:50:30 <pikhq> Oh, is glibc doing silly things with its C locale messages?
01:50:30 <fizzie> That's an odd result from sleep 10.
01:50:32 <ais523> hmm, LANG=C has become more verbose since last time I looked
01:50:46 <orin> would't it be better to just have an filter that tgranslates all tabs to something
01:51:01 <ais523> you could translate them to →
01:51:03 <pikhq> There's no particular reason to have its strings distinct from en_US -- the specific contents of the strings in the C locale aren't specified.
01:52:02 <orin> the unicode control char symbols are
01:52:03 <pikhq> The number formatting is specified, some details of its charset are specified, etc. but the strings are not.
01:52:07 <orin> ␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏
01:52:07 <orin> ␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟
01:52:25 <orin> we could have a filter that does all of them
01:52:32 <pikhq> Heck, it'd be valid (if silly) for the errno strings to just be the errno macro.
01:52:46 <ais523> I'm well aware of the Unicode control char symbols, I've written enough programs with nonprintables in on PPCG
01:53:00 <pikhq> But using en_US is probably the saner choice.
01:53:14 <ais523> pikhq: ideally they should be specified, the main purpose of the C locale should be to be machine-readable
01:53:25 <ais523> (as humans will prefer a different locale for human-readable messages, but machines like consistency)
01:53:39 <pikhq> Maybe, but POSIX underspecifies a lot of things.
01:54:05 <ais523> even "error 2" would be more useful than just stealing a message from English
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01:55:07 <pikhq> Like how cal(1) has to handle the switch from Julian to Gregorian happening in 1752, but doesn't bother even saying _what the output should look like_.
01:55:16 <orin> the tab sybol on keyboards is ↹
01:55:46 <fizzie> #ais523: Pidgin has en_NZ specific messages on my system, though looks like the only thing in there is "Authorize" → "Authorise".
01:55:56 <fizzie> (Where did that # come from?)
01:56:38 <pikhq> ais523: Shit, POSIX doesn't even make real requirements about what error messages should be output by utilities at all.
01:57:30 <pikhq> I do not think ls is actually required to output a message when it errors out.
01:57:57 <pikhq> Oh, wait: "If the file specified is not found, a diagnostic message shall be output on standard error."
01:58:01 <pikhq> It does have to output an error.
01:58:17 <pikhq> Past that though, nah.
01:59:29 <fizzie> And there's also en_NZ/LC_MESSAGES/avahi.mo, where the changes are "Initializing..." → "Initialising..." and "Canceled." → "Cancelled."
01:59:52 <orin> `` perl -pe 'tr/\0-\037/␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟/' <$'\n\t\b\r\e'
01:59:52 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: \
02:00:11 <fizzie> I wonder if NZ users actually set LANGUAGE=en_NZ:en_GB:en.
02:00:23 <pikhq> Does that even work?
02:00:37 <orin> `` perl -pe 'tr/\0-\037/␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟/' <<$'\n\t\b\r\e'
02:00:38 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: warning: here-document at line 5 delimited by end-of-file (wanted ` \
02:00:44 <fizzie> For GNU gettext and LANGUAGE, I think it should.
02:00:45 <orin> `` perl -pe 'tr/\0-\037/␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟/' <<<$'\n\t\b\r\e'
02:00:59 <fizzie> It's only the LANG and LC_* environment variables that don't do that sort of thing.
02:00:59 <pikhq> LANGUAGE is a GNU gettext thing, not a C locale thing. Okay.
02:01:19 * pikhq wonders if musl gettext handles that case
02:01:37 <fizzie> Might be other tools than just gettext that also respect it.
02:01:40 <orin> where did that a come from
02:03:14 <orin> `` perl -mutf8 -pe 'tr/\0-\037/␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟/' <<<$'\n\t\b\r\e'
02:03:48 <orin> `` perl -Mutf8 -pe 'tr/\0-\037/␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟/' <<<$'\n\t\b\r\e'
02:03:49 <HackEso> Wide character in print at -e line 1, <> line 1. \ Wide character in print at -e line 1, <> line 2. \ ␊␉␈␍␛␊
02:07:07 <fizzie> You're probably looking for the -C7 option. But it doesn't work with that either, for some reason.
02:07:28 <orin> `` perl -CS -Mutf8 -pe 'tr/\0-\037/␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟/' <<<$'\n\t\b\r\e'
02:07:28 <ais523> fizzie: apparently "#ais523" pings me
02:07:45 <ais523> although that may be because I have my pings set up to ping me on "ais523" even when I'm using a different nick
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02:38:57 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60365&oldid=60347 * A * (+720) /* Implementation */
02:40:27 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60366&oldid=60365 * A * (+21)
02:43:23 <zzo38> If making the compiler that can compile a C code into a Glulx code, there is a few thing being noted, including that Glk functions that require C strings as input, in Glulx are required to start with a type byte. However, as far as I can tell all of the Glk functions that can use a string can also use a address and length instead, so the calls could be converted.
02:43:37 <zzo38> The only exception seems to be glk_fileref_create_by_name().
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02:52:52 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60367&oldid=60366 * A * (+851) /* Examples in the "standard" derivative:(3,4) */
02:53:35 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60368&oldid=60367 * A * (-5) /* Hello World! program in Bucket in integers (derivative (1,119)) */
02:54:50 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60369&oldid=60087 * A * (+834) /* BSoD */
02:57:32 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60370&oldid=60368 * A * (-19) /* Implementation */
03:02:15 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60371&oldid=60370 * A * (+173) /* Implementation */
03:02:23 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60372&oldid=60371 * A * (-31) /* Implementation */
03:12:10 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60373&oldid=60350 * A * (+439) I have more ideas based on dc.
03:16:58 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60374&oldid=60373 * A * (+611) /* Commands */
03:19:44 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60375&oldid=60374 * A * (+148) /* Commands */
03:22:30 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60376&oldid=60375 * A * (+218) /* Commands */
03:23:42 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60377&oldid=60376 * A * (+0) Overlapping commands
03:24:14 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60378&oldid=60377 * A * (+0) /* Commands */
03:25:47 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60379&oldid=60378 * A * (+88) /* Commands */
03:27:45 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60380&oldid=60379 * A * (+106) /* Commands */
03:28:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Toadskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60381&oldid=34112 * Camto * (+194) TC with unbounded cells?
03:29:17 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60382&oldid=60380 * A * (+39) /* Commands */
03:29:34 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60383&oldid=58316 * Camto * (-50)
03:30:20 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60384&oldid=60383 * Camto * (+1) Heh
03:31:05 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60385&oldid=60382 * A * (+55) /* Commands */
03:32:21 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60386&oldid=60385 * A * (+1538) /* Commands */
03:33:13 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60387&oldid=60386 * A * (-1538) Messed up with the table
03:33:45 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60388&oldid=60387 * A * (-130) /* Commands */
03:34:29 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60389&oldid=60388 * A * (+0) /* Commands */
03:37:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Toadskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60390&oldid=60381 * Camto * (+159) Fix
03:39:35 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60391&oldid=60389 * A * (+454) /* Commands */
03:40:38 <esowiki> [[3 cell Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60392 * Camto * (+60) Page redirect for TC proof of 3 unbounded cells in BF.
03:41:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Toadskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60393&oldid=60390 * Camto * (-99) Use redirect page
03:43:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Toadskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60394&oldid=60393 * Camto * (+88) Accidental deletion.
03:45:53 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60395&oldid=60391 * A * (+78) /* Commands */
03:49:00 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60396&oldid=60395 * A * (+187) /* Commands */
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04:01:59 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60397&oldid=60396 * A * (+363) /* Commands */
04:02:02 <esowiki> [[User:Camto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60398&oldid=60384 * Camto * (+144) Add Underload.
04:04:47 <zzo38> If some titles use roman numbers, what sort keys will you use? It might sort in alphabetical order by itself, but once you reach nine or if you have fractions, then alphabetical order won't work.
04:06:48 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60399&oldid=60372 * A * (+115)
04:07:05 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60400&oldid=60399 * A * (+3) /* Compugtational Class */
04:07:14 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60401&oldid=60400 * A * (+0) /* Computational Class */
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04:15:35 <kmc> zzo38: how do roman fractions work?
04:15:37 <kmc> hi shachaf
04:15:59 <zzo38> kmc: A dot represents one twelvth and "S" represents one half.
04:16:08 <zzo38> (Subtractive notation is not used with fractions.)
04:18:42 <salpynx> if we are betting on user accounts by the same person, I'm voting A == Cortex, and A != areallycoolusername. Evidence in favour: "(for lack of a better term) Unicode/ASCII" text in ALLSCII and Hexomnia, by different users, and a general confusion of the standards by 'both' users. Also, I seem to occasionally get areallycoolusername's humour, but not the others, they feel different.
04:21:42 <salpynx> A's nomination of Bitch feels in good faith though, pretty confident they are very different users. I can't make sense of the TC proof, it shouldn't be to hard to prove either way. Unbounded value in the accumulator is almost like a tape, but the shifting complicates quite a bit. The original creator wrote "Probably not TC" I believe.
04:22:32 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60402&oldid=60401 * A * (+85) /* Implementation */
04:26:26 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60403&oldid=60402 * A * (+82)
04:27:40 <esowiki> [[SWhoopieenddns]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60404 * Camto * (+849) The spec so far.
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04:31:26 <esowiki> [[SWhoopieenddns]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60405&oldid=60404 * Camto * (-2)
04:33:00 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60406&oldid=60397 * A * (+316) /* Commands */
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04:35:26 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60407&oldid=60406 * A * (+53) /* Commands */
04:36:57 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60408&oldid=60407 * A * (+203) /* Commands */
04:40:41 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60409&oldid=60408 * A * (+231) /* Commands */
04:46:11 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60410&oldid=60409 * A * (+70) /* Commands */
04:52:29 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60411&oldid=60410 * A * (-33) /* Commands */
04:53:23 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60412&oldid=60411 * A * (+45) /* Commands */
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06:17:25 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60413 * A * (+724) Created page with "[[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] is heavily influenced by the UNIX utility "Desktop Calculator". The only difference is that it adds input to make more programs possible..."
06:18:12 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60414&oldid=60413 * A * (+13671)
06:19:37 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60415&oldid=60414 * A * (+43)
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06:21:41 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60416&oldid=60415 * A * (-1) /* Examples */
06:23:28 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60417&oldid=60416 * A * (+170) /* Examples */
06:42:03 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60418&oldid=60417 * A * (+34) /* Examples */
06:42:15 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60419&oldid=60418 * A * (-7) /* Examples */
06:42:23 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60420&oldid=60419 * A * (-1) /* Increment by 1 */
06:50:03 <esowiki> [[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60421&oldid=60420 * A * (-80)
06:51:31 <zzo38> When will IBM release the PC BIOS as free software? The source code can already be found in a book, at least.
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07:23:44 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60422 * A * (+736) Created page with "[[Bitwise Scanner]] is a bitwise language created by [[User:A]]. It is based on scanning a bitwise array. =What happens when binary numbers are incremented= <pre> 000->001 001..."
07:24:18 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60423&oldid=60422 * A * (-151) /* What happens when binary numbers are incremented */
07:26:42 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60424&oldid=60423 * A * (+93)
07:28:48 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> Heck, it'd be valid (if silly) for the errno strings to just be the errno macro." => it wouldn't be silly. it would actually be useful. it's difficult to figure out what errno code localized strerror messages stand for.
07:29:48 <b_jonas> Even for English messages it's not so obvious. I even have an old list http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/errno to be able to search the C locale messages from glibc
07:30:21 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60425&oldid=60424 * A * (+394) /* What happens when binary numbers are incremented */
07:32:24 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60426&oldid=60425 * A * (+57) /* What happens when binary numbers are decremented */
07:33:06 <b_jonas> multiple fallback locales in LANGUAGE => oh nice! I wanted something like that for TERM back a decade ago when older systems didn't have the rxvt-unicode terminfo installed, or only had it installed in my homedir so setuid programs couldn't use it.
07:34:36 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60427&oldid=60426 * A * (+59) /* What happens when binary numbers are decremented */
07:35:42 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60428&oldid=60427 * A * (+164)
07:38:52 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60429&oldid=60428 * A * (+233)
07:39:19 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60430&oldid=60429 * A * (-73) /* Computational Class */
07:40:08 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60431&oldid=60430 * A * (+58) /* Computational Class */
07:41:41 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60432&oldid=60431 * A * (-1)
07:42:16 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60433&oldid=60432 * A * (+41)
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08:00:35 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60434&oldid=60433 * A * (-50)
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08:08:08 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60435&oldid=60434 * A * (+14) /* Commands */
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08:27:03 <reconcyl> I'm trying to read arbitrary character input in Fueue
08:27:08 <reconcyl> Let 'a' be a code snippet, 'b' be the result of that snippet after 1 iteration, 'c' be after 2 iterations, etc.
08:27:12 <reconcyl> Similarly, if 'A' is a code snippet, then 'B' is the next iteration.
08:27:16 <reconcyl> The basic idea is that the construct [[*A])[a!]])$ will read an input (say 5)
08:27:22 <reconcyl> and then evaluate to edcbaB, where the number of repetitions of 'a' is equal to the input
08:27:27 <reconcyl> The question is, how do we pick values for 'A' and 'a' so that that we can turn `edcbaB` back into the input number?
08:27:31 <reconcyl> (the '*' isn't important, by the way; it can be replaced with any item because it gets deleted immediately)
08:27:36 <reconcyl> The only example given on the wiki page that uses input is the truth machine, but that only has to distinguish between 2 values
08:28:18 <reconcyl> We want 'a' to be something that's relatively stable because we don't know how many times it's going to be evaluated
08:33:40 <reconcyl> Sorry, no, the construct is [[*A])[a!])])$
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09:40:09 <esowiki> [[Phone call]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60436 * A * (+155) Created page with "[[Phone call]] is a minimalist programming language that uses the character set possible to enter in a phone call. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]]"
09:40:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Phone dial.JPG]]": This file is used as an example for a phone dial.
09:44:04 <esowiki> [[Phone call]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60438&oldid=60436 * A * (+128)
09:48:23 <esowiki> [[Phone call]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60439&oldid=60438 * A * (+195)
09:50:36 <esowiki> [[Phone call]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60440&oldid=60439 * A * (+75) /* Commands */
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09:54:48 <esowiki> [[Phone call]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60441&oldid=60440 * A * (+94) /* Commands */
10:09:09 <b_jonas> should we put http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck to the http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_equivalents ?
10:25:56 <salpynx> oh, ALLSCI is a Cortex language that A is finishing, so 'for lack of a better term' is all Cortex. It's too confusing. I still think neither of them are a reallycoolusername.
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11:15:15 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60442&oldid=60359 * Zesterer * (+16) Added Hanoifuck
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12:55:11 <esowiki> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60443&oldid=60214 * Salpynx * (+25) /* External resources */ Wayback link to Safalra's Thue pages
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14:29:59 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60444&oldid=60435 * A * (+11) Simplify the syntax
14:30:25 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60445&oldid=60444 * A * (+32) /* Commands */
14:31:12 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Scanner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60446&oldid=60445 * A * (+19) /* Computational Class */
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14:35:30 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60447&oldid=60403 * A * (-23) /* Commands */
14:35:57 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60448&oldid=60447 * A * (-166) /* Implementation(s) */
14:36:14 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60449&oldid=60448 * A * (-93) /* Computational class */
14:36:42 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60450&oldid=60449 * A * (+9)
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15:54:14 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190310.html
15:54:15 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190310.html: b_jonas
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18:15:29 <zzo38> I have idea if each command executed is erased, but the program is initially tiled into the infinite plane so that you will not run out.
19:18:50 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60451&oldid=59778 * BradensEsolangs * (+8) fixed
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20:03:54 <fizzie> kmc: Even though I don't have an antenna for that RTL-SDR stick, I managed to catch a beacon with it by plugging it to the TV aerial here: http://www.gb3vhf.co.uk/GB3UHFhome.html -- I guess the 70cm amateur radio band is pretty close to DVB-T broadcasts.
20:04:29 <kmc> I didn't know 70cm even has beacons
20:04:36 <kmc> here I would listen to a repeater and wait for it to ident
20:05:08 <kmc> meanwhile I'm trying to decode digital modes on HF using the little shortwave radio i bought yesterday at the flea market
20:12:14 <b_jonas> [ 3e8%0.70 NB. 70 cm? what's that in frequency?
20:12:15 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4.28571e8
20:15:40 <kmc> b_jonas: the 70 cm ham band is 430-440 in the UK, and 420-450 in murca
20:15:47 <kmc> (ITU regions 1 and 2 resp.)
20:15:49 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/70-centimeter_band
20:16:00 <kmc> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Band%20Chart%20-%2011X17%20Color.pdf
20:16:06 <kmc> it's also known as UHF
20:16:30 <kmc> very popular for local communication
20:16:52 <kmc> those cheap baofeng handhelds everyone buys / complains about do 70 cm as well as 2 m (VHF, 144-147)
20:17:10 <kmc> some also do 1.25 m (222-225) but that's much less popular
20:17:55 <kmc> most areas have plenty of repeaters on 2m and 70cm
20:18:01 <kmc> using a repeater you can easily go 100 miles
20:18:24 <kmc> VHF/UHF depends a whole lot on location. line of sight is key
20:18:36 <kmc> repeaters are on top of mountains which is why they're so effective (plus better antenna and hardware and more power)
20:19:12 <kmc> if not using a repeater your range will vary from less than a mile, up to 50+ miles if you're both on top of tall hills
20:19:23 <kmc> my wife and I made a 28 mile contact: https://i.imgur.com/eLhLWBJ.png
20:19:31 <kmc> using a 5W handheld and a 50W mobile (car) radio
20:19:43 <kmc> I was on top of a hill and as you can see, there were almost no obstructions
20:21:36 <kmc> the consumer stuff like FRS, GMRS, and PMR446 are near the 70cm ham band
20:21:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Reverse-Polish-notation Calculator]]": Copyright violation: page is mostly copied from a GPL source
20:21:39 <kmc> MURS is near the 2m band
20:21:50 <kmc> there are newer radios which use 900 MHz and digital modes
20:22:06 <kmc> I guess you can get ok range with part 15 digital radio on 900
20:22:22 <kmc> CB is much lower frequency, 27 MHz / 11 meters
20:22:29 <b_jonas> sure, line of sight is part of why people use a large antenna
20:22:31 <kmc> as a result you need much longer antennas
20:22:45 <kmc> so this is why it's mainly a vehicle as opposed to handheld thing
20:23:18 <kmc> plus, the CB power limit is very low. many people use illegal amplifiers, which are generally of poor quality and cause all kinds of interference
20:23:36 <kmc> tho CB is declining in popularity now that there's LTE coverage along pretty much the whole US interstate network
20:35:05 <kmc> I have about 300 repeaters from all over northern California programmed into my handheld
20:35:24 <kmc> how many of them are active, I don't know
20:35:32 <kmc> a fair number
20:35:46 <kmc> I don't talk much, but I listen, and it would be good to have in an emergency
20:37:34 <kmc> b_jonas: you can also use a directional antenna to get better signal for the same radio power
20:37:50 <kmc> I built a directional 2m antenna out of bits of tape measure
20:38:05 <b_jonas> kmc: sure, people use that for all sorts of high bandwidth wireless digital internet connections
20:38:33 <kmc> it's a good choice for direction finding http://theleggios.net/wb2hol/projects/rdf/tape_bm.htm
20:38:33 <b_jonas> both long distance between two mountains or tall buildings, and short distance with a pair of directional wifi relays for a local network
20:38:41 <kmc> which is a sport among hams
20:39:06 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah, even with consumer grade wifi gear you can get impressive distance
20:39:21 <kmc> of course with 2.4 GHz the line of sight matters even more
20:39:38 <kmc> my favorite design is "Wi-Fry" or "Wok-Fi"
20:39:46 <kmc> you take a steel wok 🏆
20:39:54 <kmc> which approximates a parabolic dish
20:40:07 <b_jonas> yes, with line of sight. my previous job used a pair of wifi routers to relay wifi between the two buildings where the company has offices, a few hundred meters apart. I can't call that high bandwidth though.
20:40:12 <kmc> drill a hole, stick a USB wifi adapter through to the correct distance
20:40:50 <b_jonas> the servers and all the tech people were in our building, only some managers and marketing guys worked in the other building, so they didn't need a fast conection to the servers of the local network
20:40:56 <b_jonas> they had separate internet service of course
20:41:18 <kmc> I used to have 300 mbps internet at my house, but that was with several commercial grade millimeter wave (60-80 GHz) links
20:41:26 <kmc> now I have gigabit symmetrical fiber
20:41:58 <kmc> our friendly local ISP MonkeyBrains runs a mesh of wireless links all over the city
20:42:14 <kmc> unlike Comcast they are not douchebags
20:43:59 <kmc> b_jonas: you can actually run wifi under amateur radio rules in the USA
20:44:05 <kmc> with greater power
20:44:48 <kmc> but you can't use encryption of any kind, you must identify (usually by putting callsign in SSID), and no commercial use
20:45:23 <b_jonas> wait, it possible to use wifi with no encryption of any kind, not even weak one?
20:47:09 <pikhq> Yeah, that's what open Wifi is.
20:47:13 <kmc> no encryption also means no SSL, no SSH, etc
20:47:44 <kmc> the common interpretation of the rules is that you can encrypt passwords or use cryptographic authentication
20:47:55 <kmc> since that isn't obscuring the content of a "message"
20:48:08 <kmc> armchair lawyering is an important part of the hobby
20:48:14 <b_jonas> kmc: um, what do you mean by "cryptogrtaphic authentication"?
20:48:29 <kmc> ssh pubkey, ssl xlient certs
20:48:55 <pikhq> And the FCC mostly doesn't care unless you're causing problems for other licensed users.
20:48:59 <kmc> but you would have to use a null cipher
20:49:10 <kmc> pikhq: well, some hams are snitches
20:49:24 <b_jonas> pikhq: or interference with other frequencies, not necessarily with HAM stuff, right?
20:49:31 <kmc> it's self regulating and people want to keep that privilege
20:49:39 <pikhq> b_jonas: Other frequencies tend to have other licensed users on it.
20:49:40 <kmc> b_jonas: yes
20:49:55 <b_jonas> oh, you mean licensed in the broad meaning, not just HAM-licensed
20:50:35 <kmc> there are some bands where hams are secondary and must yield to other users
20:50:53 <kmc> on the rest, any licensed amateur has equal right to use the band
20:50:54 <b_jonas> although I think there are also frequencies reserved for earth-based radio-telescopy, and I don't think the stars broadcasting there got a license from FCC, for lightspeed limit reasons
20:51:28 <kmc> a person can't "own" a frequency although there are voluntary agreements. general courtesy is the way
20:52:07 <kmc> there are also specific frequencies known for rule breaking
20:52:19 <pikhq> b_jonas: Yeah, that's some of the ISM bands.
20:52:21 <b_jonas> you can never own them because they're only leased for long term
20:52:22 <kmc> people let them be as long as it doesn't spill over to other freqs
20:53:57 <b_jonas> and even then with specific restrictions
20:55:14 <kmc> but my point is that for hams there's no exclusive right to use any frequency
20:55:52 <b_jonas> the exclusive rights are for television, radio, and mobile telephony
20:56:22 <kmc> marine, land mobie radio, public safety, aviation, military
20:56:37 <b_jonas> yeah, the UHF bands used by some public services
20:57:18 <b_jonas> how does aviation count as exclusive? aren't most of those bands open for any aviation user?
20:57:46 <b_jonas> at least partitioned by location that is
20:58:15 <b_jonas> you need a license for that and the aviation authority controls that tightly, but still
20:58:22 <b_jonas> it's not like it's exclusive to anyone
21:00:17 <kmc> I'm guessing each ATC has a specific right for their frequency
21:00:22 <zzo38> Isn't there certain code words and stuff like that for aviation use? (Although I suppose anyone can learn what they are, though.)
21:00:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and there's a license to pilot aviation, not only for the radio
21:03:09 <b_jonas> but there's also a license and protocol for HAM
21:03:24 <zzo38> (I have been told there is FOWER and FIFE, which is supposed to be used for 4 and 5 but it is rarely used. NINER for 9 is common though)
21:04:05 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, and I think there is more than one kind of protocol for HAM, such as Morse code or RTTY or voice, and for pictures, slowscan and fastscan are used.
21:04:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but I think that sort of redundant words are not really exclusive for aviation, it's used for any noisy voice channel, even without radio.
21:07:13 <b_jonas> mind you, it's getting less common, because we don't have noisy analog phone lines anymore, so the noise comes more from the air environment rather than wires or radio
21:19:57 <zzo38> Why is the range ARL TWENTY SEVEN up to ARL FORTY FIVE unused? (ARL FORTY EIGHT and ARL FORTY NINE also seems unused, even though ARL FORTY SIX and ARL FORTY SEVEN are defined.)
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22:15:18 <kmc> zzo38: yeah, ham radio uses all kinds of abbreviations and codes. it's full of jargon for jargon's sake
22:15:24 <kmc> but they are all well known, so they don't count as encryption
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22:22:06 <Sgeo_> Is Roblox basically BYOND for 3D games?
22:22:30 <Sgeo_> I used to love BYOND as a kid. These days I think people only care about BYOND for Space Station 13
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22:55:03 <esowiki> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60452&oldid=60443 * Salpynx * (+25) /* External resources */ bf in Thue archived resource
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