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00:55:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lucas * New user account
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01:42:36 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60985&oldid=60957 * A * (-101) Simplify Syntax
01:43:20 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60986&oldid=60985 * A * (-5) /* 99 bottles of beer */
02:01:50 <zzo38> Now instead of POSTPIPE, I decided to put POSTQUIT. Still the purpose is what I mentioned before, which is for convenience of users who do not use specialized NNTP software.
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03:31:24 <zzo38> Now they added a "socketvfs" extension for SQLite. The socketvfs protocol is: When connected, server sends the file size as a big-endian 64-bit integer. Client requests data by sending two big-endian 64-bit integers being the offset and length, and then the server returns the data. You could use with stuff other than SQLite too, I suppose.
03:33:04 <kmc> what are the use cases?
03:33:24 <kmc> nice simple protocol.
03:35:16 <shachaf> "Nobody knows how much space should be reserved for name. So, calling openpty() or forkpty() with non-NULL name may not be secure."
03:35:38 <zzo38> As far as I can tell currently it is only used in a SQLite extension that is not included by default; I suppose it can be one way to log what parts of a file are accessed. There may be other use too.
03:35:42 <shachaf> it is not merely unknown, but unknowable
03:36:19 <shachaf> Why is anything ever big-endian nowadays? Isn't it just the worst of the endians?
03:36:25 <shachaf> Other than PDP-11-endian, of course.
03:38:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Perhaps use a #define command to define how much space is needed for the name, if your program cares about the name. Then determine what is needed on your computer before compiling it. But you can also try to write the program to avoid needing the name if it doesn't need it.
03:39:14 <shachaf> I think I'll just not ask for the name.
03:39:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, if possible, that is what you should do; don't ask for the name.
03:40:33 <zzo38> I don't know why it uses big-endian. I think small-endian is generally better; but, many things use big-endian too, and still you can work with small-endian and big-endian and PDP-endian, even if it is not the native endian of the system.
03:44:49 <shachaf> I want a C program that can both be run as a script (#!/bin/run-as-c or something) and compiled as C.
03:44:52 <zzo38> MMIX uses big-endian, Glulx uses big-endian, Z-machine code mostly uses big-endian (there is an option for small-endian in version 3 Z-code (ZIP), but this was never used and is rarely implemented), etc
03:45:17 <zzo38> shachaf: I think #! is not a valid command in C.
03:45:34 <zzo38> (I don't know if any C compiler will accept and ignore it as an extension, though.)
03:45:46 <shachaf> tcc will accept #!/usr/bin/tcc -run
03:46:24 <shachaf> Unfortunately it doesn't support many other things.
03:48:30 <zzo38> Tell the people who maintain GCC and clang to accept and ignore the first line with #! if GNU extensions are enabled (it could be implemented by the preprocessor replacing that line with a blank line if it comes first in the file). And then you can write your own program which is interpreting the C code and also does that if #! is on the first line.
03:51:07 <shachaf> But if I need to do that, then it sounds like the answer is that it's not possible.
03:51:48 <pikhq> Probably simpler to write a wrapper that would just compile on demand to a temp file and then execute it.
03:52:11 <zzo38> (You could also make the change to GCC by yourself, but then it won't work if distributed to someone who is not using your (unofficial) version of GCC, of course.)
03:54:38 <shachaf> pikhq: How does that solve the problem?
03:54:52 <pikhq> It doesn't, but I am tired enough to pretend it does.
03:55:40 <shachaf> I mean, I was planning to write a wrapper anyway. But half of the problem is that I want to be able to compile the file as regular C.
03:56:55 <zzo38> You can do if you require to type bash and the filename, so that bash will interpret it. (I do this with many of my own C programs.)
03:57:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60987&oldid=60950 * Lucas * (+315) Hello world! Lucas, cest moi.
03:59:30 <shachaf> I just want to be able to put it in my PATH or something.
04:00:48 * pikhq should probably sleep
04:16:20 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
04:21:20 <zzo38> Do you like POSTQUIT command?
04:25:45 <user24> Here's a shitty map of the wiki: https://i.imgur.com/yWT0UCz.png
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04:59:54 * oerjan isn't clicking on that.
05:52:39 <shachaf> gdb is saying the current instruction is "mulss 0x3b4a(%rip),%xmm0"
05:53:09 <shachaf> p *(float *)(0x3b4a+$rip) prints a value which is probably nonsense but at least it's a value.
05:54:29 <shachaf> Oh, well, this compiler (tcc) doesn't support PIC at all.
05:54:51 <shachaf> I guess that explains this thing not working. But I still don't get what's going on with this specific instruction causing SEGV.
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06:18:46 <zzo38> You can use INCH $2,#FFF0 in MMIX to make half of a floating number that is known to be greater than 2^-1021. Similar thing may be possible with other instruction sets too.
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10:46:34 <fizzie> @tell shachaf It doesn't explain the SIGSEGV, but it's quite possible that 0x3b4a(%rip) and (0x3b4a+$rip) refer to different memory addresses.
10:46:37 <fizzie> @tell shachaf Because the instruction's rip-relative addressing mode is in terms of an offset from the *next* instruction, but gdb's $rip is probably the current instruction.
10:48:37 <shachaf> But I think it's pretty unlikely that was on a page boundary.
10:49:22 <int-e> doesn't dmesg contain the actual fault address for segfaults
10:51:29 <int-e> (oh and alignment is another venue to investigate...)
10:52:19 <int-e> okay, alignment is out :)
10:52:32 <shachaf> The actual address, given by gdb adding the offset from the right instruction, is 7ffff5388240
10:52:45 <shachaf> I mean, presumably this one is the non-actual address.
10:53:07 <shachaf> I don't see how one turns into the other.
10:53:18 <shachaf> The gdb disassembly even says: mulss 0x3b4a(%rip),%xmm0 # 0x7ffff5388240
10:54:19 <int-e> Hmm last 12 bits are the same... oh are you sure that what you're seeing is for the current layout, not from a previous run?
10:54:57 <shachaf> I'm breaking at the instruction before it and looking at the value.
10:55:03 <shachaf> Or, hmm, I guess that doesn't tell me anything about dmesg.
10:56:10 <shachaf> Yes, I guess that dmesg log was from another run.
10:56:20 <shachaf> I wouldn't have thought to look there. How does it decide which segfault to log?
10:56:51 <shachaf> Oh, it doesn't log it when it's in gdb.
10:57:26 <shachaf> So that's probably the right address.
10:58:10 <shachaf> segfault at 7f34ec91f240 ip 00007f34ec91b6ee sp 00007fff25491f30 error 4 in libredacted.so[7f34ec914000+9000]
10:58:31 <int-e> . o O ( nice library name )
10:59:02 <shachaf> Anyway there's no reason to expect this program to work since the compiler doesn't support PIC.
10:59:05 <int-e> what was the command for looking at memory maps? info memory?
10:59:09 <shachaf> But I'm confusil about the SEGV.
10:59:29 <shachaf> I looked cat /proc/pid/maps before. I think it looked OK?
10:59:47 <int-e> (/proc/<nnn>/maps is always an option, but it feels wrong when you're already in gdb :) )
11:00:23 <shachaf> I know, but figuring out how to make gdb do the thing I want feels wrong too.
11:01:02 <shachaf> The answer is "info proc mappings"
11:01:05 <int-e> info proc mappings <-- hmm. I thought there was something better
11:02:10 <shachaf> Anyway that address is in the .so mapping, as expected (?)
11:04:37 <shachaf> I never thought "given a specific instruction, in a debugger, figure out why it's causing a SEGV" is a hard problem.
11:05:30 <shachaf> Can it be some weird thing about addressing modes?
11:05:44 <shachaf> I bet it's something really obvious I'm missing.
11:06:45 <fizzie> I mean, sometimes it's about the instruction fetch itself, but that doesn't sound likely either.
11:07:07 <int-e> The error code would be different then.
11:08:29 <shachaf> Maybe another debugger can tell me more.
11:08:56 <shachaf> ...By default, because I'm sure gdb knows but I don't know how to ask it.
11:09:03 <shachaf> lldb: * thread #1, name = 'redacted', stop reason = signal SIGSEGV: address access protected (fault address: 0x7ffff5388240)
11:09:31 <shachaf> But p *(float *)0x7ffff5388240 prints 0.
11:10:27 <shachaf> To be clear, the value at that address should not be 0.
11:10:40 <shachaf> But I'm not expecting this to work. I just want to know what's going on!
11:11:53 <fizzie> I've had gdb confused about what mode (64-bit vs. compatibility mode) it's disassembling vs. running, but that shouldn't happen in the normal case.
11:12:21 <fizzie> (In any case presumably the "fault address" is coming from the system, not from trying to work it out from the instruction.)
11:16:35 <int-e> phew, https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/include/asm/traps.h#L167-L174 is harder to find than it should be.
11:17:40 <int-e> shachaf: anyway, your error code was 4, indicating an absent page for an ordinary user mode read.
11:18:20 <int-e> Yeah... that is the puzzle, isn't it.
11:19:36 <int-e> . o O ( Maybe you're in luck and it turns out to be a processor bug! ;-) )
11:21:27 <int-e> I don't know. These addresses look very plausible for rip-relative addressing, and I trust you've verified that 7f34ec91f240 is actually in the mapped range of libredacted.so.
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11:22:12 <shachaf> It's not redacted for any good reason, by the way.
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11:22:16 <int-e> Oh. I wonder how an execute-only map manifests.
11:22:36 <fizzie> int-e: I'd expect that to have the PROT bit set in the error code.
11:22:41 <int-e> Does that cause the PROT flag to be set or is that only for kernel mode pages?
11:23:56 <shachaf> 7ffff5386000-7ffff5585000 ---p 00009000 103:07 8931950
11:24:02 <shachaf> I was sure I checked for this before.
11:24:06 <shachaf> I must've looked at the wrong address.
11:27:15 <shachaf> int-e++ solves the mystery
11:28:17 <shachaf> I'm not sure why dlopen is mprotecting that to PROT_NONE but at least that's a run-of-the-mill thing I don't know.
11:28:17 <int-e> . o O ( comparisons are hard )
11:29:03 <shachaf> I think I expected p *(T *)addr to behave the same as examining the addr from the debugee, too.
11:29:15 <shachaf> Since you can have arbitrary expressions as arguments to p.
11:29:16 * int-e momentarily thought the address was out of range. But yeah, it wasn't.
11:29:51 <shachaf> (Whereas I'd expect x to just look at the memory regardless of protection.)
11:40:31 <int-e> shachaf: I guess the reason is that ptrace's PTRACE_PEEK_* operation have no way of signalling an error (since a memory location may well contain -1)
11:41:19 <int-e> That interface is pretty bad. :)
11:43:29 <shachaf> You mean the glibc wrapper around it is pretty bad?
11:43:57 <shachaf> The Linux system call returns the value in *data, and returns an error code as the return value.
11:44:50 <int-e> lots of room to shift the blame :)
11:44:58 <shachaf> Then libc wraps it with the ridiculous thing where you're supposed to write { errno = 0; value = ptrace(PTRACE_PEEKDATA, ...); if (errno != 0) ...; else ...; }
11:45:16 <shachaf> Oh, good point. I do like how portable my programs using ptrace are.
11:45:53 <int-e> Well, I do like the fact that gdb works.
11:46:10 <shachaf> It works because it's been ported to each system that it works on.
11:46:13 <int-e> But I get your point :)
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11:51:42 <shachaf> Isn't it great how the Linux ABI is way more stable than the libc ABI?
11:53:29 <shachaf> I'd much rather write programs to use the Linux ABI.
11:53:34 <shachaf> Unfortunately you have to use the other one.
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15:14:05 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60988&oldid=51892 * Rottytooth * (+17) added pronunciation
15:15:09 <esowiki> [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60989&oldid=51712 * Lucas * (-11) Update creator link; uppercase and lowercase as compound words
15:41:04 <esowiki> [[Template:Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60990&oldid=51763 * Lucas * (+149) Clarify usage and add examples
15:47:53 <esowiki> [[User:Lucas/common.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60991 * Lucas * (+91) Use [[:Wikipedia:Meta:User:LLarson/global.css|my Wikimedia stylesheet]]
16:10:37 <int-e> oh wow... git version 1.8.3.1 ... that is quite outdated :)
16:12:34 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60992&oldid=60908 * Lucas * (+44) /* Partially Silly Ideas */ Link to [[Malbolge]] and [[Wikipedia:Lambert W function|Lambert function]]
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18:02:33 <b_jonas> shachaf: hehe. so the proper method is to call it with name set to nullptr, and then call ttyname on the slave to find out the name?
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18:41:01 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60993&oldid=60639 * Helen * (+291)
18:46:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60994&oldid=60313 * Helen * (+0) /* Implementation */ Added v4.12 jar
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19:03:08 <b_jonas> [ #'0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001'
19:15:00 <HackEso> Darth Plagueis? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:15:14 <b_jonas> ``` for c in {0..9}; do \? $(starwars); done
19:15:20 <HackEso> the Sarlacc? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Moff Jerjerrod? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Lor San Tekka? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Jango Fett? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Count Dooku? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Bail Organa? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Beru Lars? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Qui-Gon Jinn? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Bail Organa? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Kylo Ren? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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21:01:09 <HackEso> alercäh rdocöc quintopïa Zarutiän jeffl3̈5 BlueProtomän fizzïe hppavilion[1̈] Phantom_Hoovër int-̈e b_jonäs boil̈y a`a`a`a`jo7äs a`a`a`a`jo8äs a`a`a`a`jo3äs a`a`a`a`jo6äs a`a`a`a`jo5äs a`a`a`a`jo4äs a`a`a`a`jo2äs a`a`a`a`jo1äs a`a`a`a`jonas̈0 a`a`a`̈a lambdaböt chicken_jonäs mynam̈e
21:01:10 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mspalist: not found
21:01:20 <Sgeo_> What's the Homestuck list?
21:01:39 <HackEso> welcome \ welcome \ \ \ \ echo \ ! \ " \ # \ ' \ ( \ * \ ,1 \ ,2 \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ <command> \ ? \ ?? \ ?h \ ?hh \ @ \ CaT \ CoInS \ Eternity \ FireFlist \ No \ ReLcOmE \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ Welcome \ ^.^ \ ` \ `^ \ `` \ `̀ \ aaaaaaaaa \ acronym \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ a
21:02:35 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: I don't think there's one yet, but I'm not sure
21:02:45 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd bin; echo *list
21:02:45 <HackEso> FireFlist aglist bardsworthlist bobadventureslist calesyta2016list danddreclist don'taskdon'ttelllist dontaskdonttelllist ehlist emptylist erflist flist idealist ioccclist keenlist list listlist llist makelist makelistlist minimalist mlist olist pbflist slist smlist stylist testlist wrlist xkcdwhatiflist ysaclist
21:03:01 <shachaf> It used to be called `list.
21:03:14 <shachaf> I think I renamed it to slist.
21:03:21 <HackEso> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:05:30 <b_jonas> does anyone want a referral code on booking.com ?
21:06:50 <shachaf> I read books. Is that considered booking?
21:07:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: this one is for hotels and other shelter. English is confusing.
21:09:41 <shachaf> Sometimes I read books in hotels and other shelter.
21:19:44 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lists: not found
21:19:53 <fungot> int-e: captain! our dreams are finally coming true! you were so busy with your own yet. look for a long time, i'm going! you came back. come in.
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21:34:20 <fizzie> Maybe I won't get stuck playing it a lot.
21:35:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
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21:51:52 <zzo38> I have seen a program for PC using HLT for timing. But, if you use that then in addition to the timer, it is also triggered by pushing keys, and by moving the mouse within the DOSBOX window.
21:52:49 <zzo38> Can the mouse interrupt be disabled so that it doesn't do that?
22:04:25 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
22:04:40 <Sgeo_> fungot, there is a Homestuck update for the first time in almost 3 years
22:04:40 <fungot> Sgeo_: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? forget it. go me
22:10:21 <HackEso> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
22:10:32 <b_jonas> so I just didn't see that because there were no updates?
22:11:18 <b_jonas> and it was called `list too? that makes the current `list even more tricky
22:11:53 <HackEso> 1466:2013-01-12 <Sgëo> echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora" > bin/list \ 1467:2013-01-12 <Sgëo> chmod a+x bin/list \ 1470:2013-01-12 <Sgëo> echo shachaf >> bin/list \ 1471:2013-01-12 <shachäf> sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list \ 1472:2013-01-12 <ellioẗt> sed -i \'s/Fiora/Fiora shachaf/\' bin/list # fixed \ 1473:2013-01-12 <shachäf> sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list \ 1474:2013-01-12 <ellioẗt> revert \ 1475:2013-01-12 <shachäf> sed -i s/shachaf// bin/li
22:12:51 <Sgeo_> b_jonas, there is an update
22:12:54 <HackEso> 2/18:n/list \ 1487:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> sed -i \'1s/$/shachaf nortti/\' bin/list \ 1488:2013-01-12 <shachäf> rm bin/list \ 1498:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> echo \'echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti\' > bin/list \ 1499:2013-01-12 <Bik̈e> echo " elliot" >> bin/list \ 1500:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> sed -i \'2d;1s/$/ elliott/\' bin/list \ 1501:2013-01-12 <ellioẗt> revert \ 1502:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> sed -i 2d bin/list \ 1503:2013-01-12 <Bik̈e> echo \'echo Taneb
22:13:01 <shachaf> What a good joke, adding me repeatedly to a list I don't want to be on.
22:13:07 <shachaf> Top tier humor from the past.
22:13:25 <esowiki> [[User:Lucas/common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60995 * Lucas * (+102) Using [[MetaWikipedia:User:LLarson/global.js|my Wikimedia scriptrepository]]
22:13:34 <Sgeo_> I... don't recall using those dot things in my name
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22:14:52 <Sgeo_> Ok, I'll assume something's buggy. In the script or in the logs?
22:16:10 <shachaf> Probably in the log script.
22:17:58 <fizzie> If by "dot things" you mean the diacritics, that's just an anti-ping defense.
22:19:52 <fizzie> (It's part of bin/hlnp, presumably for "no ping".)
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23:15:36 <zzo38> Do you like the new NNTP software that I am writing?
23:21:30 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
23:25:22 <oerjan> `learn hlnp is a modification of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:25:23 <HackEso> Learned 'hlnp': hlnp is a modification of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:26:45 <shachaf> Are all the scowrevs mass revert revisions?
23:26:49 <oerjan> `slwd hlnp//s/modification/wrapper/
23:26:51 <HackEso> hlnp//hlnp is a wrapper of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:27:14 <oerjan> shachaf: probably not, but those are the most noisy ones
23:27:50 <HackEso> hlnp//hlnp is a wrapper of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:29:10 <oerjan> `slwd hlnp//s,mass,known &,
23:29:12 <HackEso> hlnp//hlnp is a wrapper of "hg log" that ignores known mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:31:03 <zzo38> Hopefully by 2070 there will not be any more not-Y2K-compliant NNTP clients in use
23:33:22 <oerjan> hm i suddenly envision internet archeologists having to run things in a vm with fake time settings in order not to trigger such bugs in ancient programs that have long since seized maintenance
23:35:08 <zzo38> Hopefully if source code is available, the program can be corrected if needed
23:35:28 <oerjan> even the programming language may no longer be something people know
23:37:12 <zzo38> Yes, unless someone tries to reimplement it. Sometimes people try that now, so maybe in future they might also do, but still using fake time settings may be easier and faster to do than reimplementing the programming language.
23:52:57 <fizzie> `` while read r; do hg log -T '{desc}\n' -r "$r"; done < share/scowrevs | paste
23:53:03 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.22260
23:58:37 <shachaf> Some of those revs seem awfully specific.