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00:23:36 <ais523> I'm not sure; its most common use seems to be constraint solving
00:23:41 <ais523> but I've never used it directly myself
00:30:41 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i don't really know Z3 either but it seemed like the kind of thing you sometimes add
00:33:14 <oerjan> as for BANCStar, i seem to recall we used to consider it an example of a language that isn't esoteric because it was meant for something practical.
00:37:56 <HackEso> 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
00:38:03 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteformat: not found
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00:38:10 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
00:38:47 <oerjan> `sled quotes//1333s, <, <,g
00:38:49 <HackEso> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to
00:38:55 <HackEso> 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
00:39:38 <shachaf> that seems compliant to me hth
00:40:34 <shachaf> I should start writing " <oerjan>" in all the quotable things I say.
00:40:57 <HackEso> 260) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo
00:41:16 <oerjan> you won't beat django anyway
00:42:03 * oerjan whistles Tanta til Beate
00:42:36 <shachaf> @die 1d2 -- 1 for <shachaf> , 2 for <django>
00:43:06 <oerjan> that was not the contest hth
00:44:56 <shachaf> @google "press is the enemy"
00:44:56 <lambdabot> https://www.quora.com/Did-President-Trump-actually-say-the-press-is-the-enemy-of-the-people-I-can-only-find-where-he-said-fake-news-is-the-enemy-of-the-people
00:47:02 <shachaf> Unicode text rendering is locale-dependent?
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01:38:21 <kmc> i'm going to play baba is you
01:40:18 <oerjan> . o O ( Baba was You, the time traveling puzzle game )
01:42:25 <kmc> Braid is a pretty good time traveling puzzle game
01:43:36 <shachaf> I wanted to make a 2+1D puzzle game where you have some tricky spacetime manifold.
01:45:45 <kmc> how's that wrk
01:46:56 <shachaf> i had some ideas but it turns out to be p. complicated
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01:55:41 <kmc> this game is charming
01:55:43 <kmc> i am charmed
01:57:08 <kmc> i already encountered some tricky situations such as a move that changes the rule of whether said move will kill me
01:57:27 <shachaf> 2019-03.txt:02:50:26 <shachaf> kmc: you should babajam
02:01:19 <kmc> what does that mean
02:18:04 * kmc is very stuck :(
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02:28:31 <kmc> yay i got it
02:29:22 <kmc> ALGAE IS DEFEAT
02:29:38 <kmc> LOVE IS PUSH, LOVE IS WIN
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02:56:32 <shachaf> I wish all the rules in Baba Is You were deterministic.
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03:18:37 <kmc> what does DOOR IS SHUT mean
03:24:59 <Hooloovo0> a X IS SHUT means that a Y IS OPEN will unlock/break X
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04:34:45 <kmc> this game is adorable
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04:45:56 <kmc> oh god now there are text tiles that control the behavior of text tiles
04:56:14 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61202&oldid=61071 * Salpynx * (+233) links with details of the Z3 architecture
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05:17:39 <FireFly> the difficulty ramps up quite quickly
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05:23:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61203 * Salpynx * (+849) trying to clarify the 2nd paragraph (not about Z3)
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06:50:49 <kmc> shachaf: what do you mean about the rules not being deterministic?
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07:35:17 <myname> baba is you is a great game. i didn't play that much yet, i am stuck in the second bonus level underwater
07:37:32 <myname> there are two, the first has "crab is defeat" and "flag is win" in the upper right corner to be activated, the second one also has "jelly is push" and bypasses the option to make a "rock is you" to sneak through the crabs
07:38:43 <shachaf> that means if you touch oerjan you disappear, hth
07:39:05 <myname> it is quite the nice sequence
07:39:41 <myname> the levels are so similar and i like how the second breaks the way you can solve the first
07:39:58 <shachaf> That's a pattern in this game.
07:40:29 <shachaf> In particular [redacted] and [redacted], and also [redacted] and [redacted]
07:40:34 <shachaf> And a few other instances.
07:43:08 <myname> also, if puzzles are in right now: snakebird is awesome
07:43:42 <myname> the graphics discouraged me the first few times from trying it because it looked too childish to be a challenge, but it is
07:46:37 <myname> also, "the sequence" and "the sequence 2" for mobile are nice bullying automaton puzzles
08:13:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61204&oldid=61191 * A * (-906) Delete a quite irrelevant conversation
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08:50:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61205&oldid=61204 * TuxCrafting * (+680)
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09:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61206&oldid=61205 * TuxCrafting * (+380)
09:16:41 <rain1> snakebird is really good
09:16:54 <rain1> ive also tried stephen sausage roll but it's too difficult
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09:26:04 <HackEso> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
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10:37:23 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61207&oldid=61179 * Salpynx * (+12) TCness is an open question
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11:22:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61208&oldid=61206 * A * (+11) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
11:22:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61209&oldid=61208 * A * (+0) Wait, switch order...
11:26:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61210&oldid=61209 * A * (+118) /* Some thoughts */
11:27:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61211&oldid=60312 * A * (+636)
11:27:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61212&oldid=61211 * A * (+64) /* Comment from User:TuxCrafting= */
11:28:34 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61213&oldid=61212 * A * (+379)
11:32:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61214&oldid=61213 * A * (+15)
11:35:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61215&oldid=61210 * A * (+47) /* Some thoughts */
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11:41:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61216&oldid=61215 * TuxCrafting * (+202)
11:53:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61217&oldid=61216 * A * (+142) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
11:57:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61218&oldid=61217 * A * (+39) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
12:04:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61219&oldid=61218 * A * (+186) /* Some thoughts */
12:05:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61220&oldid=61219 * A * (+11) /* Some thoughts */
12:06:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61221&oldid=61220 * A * (-1) /* Some thoughts */
12:07:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61222&oldid=61221 * A * (+0) Sent wrong URL
12:30:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61223&oldid=61222 * A * (+122) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
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12:42:20 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61224&oldid=61202 * A * (-7)
12:45:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61225&oldid=61203 * A * (+192)
12:50:07 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61226&oldid=61224 * A * (-416)
12:51:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61227&oldid=61223 * A * (+34) /* Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen */
12:55:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61228&oldid=61225 * A * (-192) Undo revision 61225 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
12:58:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61229&oldid=61227 * A * (+152) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
13:03:15 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61230&oldid=61226 * A * (+8)
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13:04:58 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61231&oldid=61207 * A * (+92) /* Impossible */
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13:31:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61232&oldid=61229 * A * (+63) /* Proof that all loops are computationally equivalent */
13:49:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61233&oldid=61232 * A * (+447) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
13:51:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61234&oldid=61233 * A * (+128) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
14:03:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61235&oldid=61234 * A * (+15) I helped you out a bit.
14:14:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61236&oldid=61235 * A * (+59) /* Some thoughts */
14:16:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61237&oldid=61214 * A * (+61) /* Comment from User:TuxCrafting from bitch */
14:22:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61238&oldid=61236 * A * (+8) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
14:24:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61239&oldid=61188 * A * (+114) /* List of candidates */
14:26:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61240&oldid=61239 * A * (+26) /* List of candidates */
14:27:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61241&oldid=61240 * A * (+1) /* List of candidates */
14:28:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61242&oldid=61241 * A * (-75) /* List of candidates */
14:29:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61243&oldid=61242 * A * (-13)
14:31:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61244&oldid=61243 * A * (+26) /* List of candidates */
14:33:24 <Taneb> ...brainfuck was the features language on the wiki for pretty much my entire time at uni
14:34:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61245&oldid=61238 * A * (+100) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
14:36:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61246&oldid=61245 * A * (+16) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
14:45:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61247&oldid=61231 * Helen * (+76) /* Basic Flow Instructions */ Clarified looping due to a comment in the talk page by [[User:TuxCrafting|TuxCrafting]]
14:55:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61248&oldid=61246 * Helen * (+53) /* Incrementing */
14:56:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61249&oldid=61247 * Helen * (+4) Updated computational class to unknown
15:08:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61250&oldid=61237 * Helen * (+449) /* Comment from User:TuxCrafting from Talk:bitch */
15:14:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61251&oldid=61248 * Helen * (+67) /* Incrementing */
15:14:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61252&oldid=61251 * Helen * (-257) /* Decrementing idea */
15:15:59 <esowiki> [[User:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61253&oldid=58955 * Helen * (+118)
15:16:12 <esowiki> [[User:Helen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61254&oldid=61253 * Helen * (+11)
15:16:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61255&oldid=61252 * Helen * (+85) /* Some thoughts */
15:17:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61256&oldid=61255 * Helen * (+75) /* Some thoughts */
15:18:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61257&oldid=61256 * Helen * (+163) /* Attempt by User:Helen and User:A */
15:33:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61258&oldid=61257 * TuxCrafting * (+805)
15:33:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61259&oldid=61258 * TuxCrafting * (+93)
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15:41:04 <ZM> I've been playing around a bit with BytePusher
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15:47:32 <oren> Damn it now I have to buy that game
15:50:21 <oren> people keep talking about it and it sound so awesome
15:51:13 <Taneb> I don't know much about it
15:51:42 <int-e> We[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_majestatis]'re all done with that game.
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15:56:58 <shachaf> Taneb: imo you should baba it up hth
15:57:32 <Taneb> I still don't know anything abou tit
15:59:38 <shachaf> Taneb: good, that's the way to do it
15:59:53 <Taneb> Does it run on Linux
16:00:17 <Taneb> Will it run well on my computer that doesn't currently and may not soon have a GPU
16:00:58 <shachaf> it is not a fancy graphics game
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16:01:19 <Taneb> How much does it cost
16:01:28 <Taneb> myname: I have one of those
16:01:31 <shachaf> here is a trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7MJljsoUSo
16:01:38 <myname> Taneb: one from nintendo?
16:01:51 <int-e> Yeah it doesn't look like it needs a GPU. OTOH I'm pretty sure it uses OpenGL.
16:02:07 <myname> the switch is an awesome console
16:02:10 <Taneb> That's a lot of dollars unless that , marks the decimal point
16:02:33 <int-e> shachaf: can I sell my copy to you?
16:02:56 <int-e> (I know, Steam won't allow it...)
16:02:59 <shachaf> A second-hand copy? I'll pay you $0.14 for it.
16:03:06 <shachaf> Oh no, you bought it on Steam?
16:03:32 <shachaf> I bought it on humblebundle.com because you get a non-Steam-DRM copy.
16:03:38 <shachaf> ...And then played it on Steam.
16:04:00 <int-e> I'm not following humblebundle anymore.
16:04:20 <shachaf> I didn't get it as part of a bundle. I stopped following those a long time ago.
16:04:27 <shachaf> They're just a regular store now.
16:05:00 <int-e> (I found that most of the non-crappy games in those bundles were the non-crappy games that made me buy earlier bundles.)
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16:06:13 <int-e> I think I disliked the infrequent updates.
16:06:20 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:06:43 <shachaf> Oh, look at this. They have 9 bundles.
16:07:10 <int-e> . o O ( Oh look at this, crap^9. (I haven't looked) )
16:07:28 <shachaf> I'm sure I want a "₿lockchain & ¢ryptocurrencybundle"!
16:07:56 <shachaf> Apparently there's a Unicode code point for U+20BF BITCOIN SIGN?
16:07:57 <Taneb> Donate more than the average and get 0.0001 bitcoin
16:08:15 <shachaf> I always figured people were abusing some other code point that happened to have a B with a line through it.
16:08:20 <shachaf> Now I'm disappointed in the Unicode committee.
16:08:49 <int-e> shachaf: is it a double-linked blockchain?
16:09:14 <TuxCrafting> seeing all the emojis you shouldn't be surprised by the uc being stupid
16:10:40 <int-e> get more mystery games on May 3 <-- they have invisible crap too
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16:11:33 <shachaf> You know it has to be good if they won't even tell you what it is.
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16:16:26 <oren> my font doesn't have the bitcoin sign
16:16:48 <oren> bitcoin sign is a very important character to support
16:17:00 <shachaf> I was about to say, can I use your font?
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16:27:52 <myname> can't wait for the switch release of slay the spire
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16:37:41 <oren> Ok, I have just added 5 new currency symbols to my font
16:38:56 <HackEso> dingbat:dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft. \ font:#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ \ lifthrasiir's font:lifthrasiir's font is https://github.com
16:38:57 <oren> U+20BB to U+20BF
16:40:28 <shachaf> whoa, your font's metadata seems all wrong
16:41:11 <shachaf> I'm loading it with freetype and rendering glyphs using bitmap_left, bitmap_top, etc.
16:41:23 <shachaf> And it's sure looking terrible.
16:41:50 <oren> it's a TTF font not bitmap
16:42:58 <shachaf> I know, Freetype is rendering it to a bitmap.
16:43:23 <shachaf> I don't know much about font rendering but what I'm doing worked fine with all the other TTF fonts I tried.
16:44:06 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font.png
16:44:11 <oren> this font has a persistent problem with working under subpixel rendering
16:45:27 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font-atlas-128.pgm
16:45:55 <shachaf> I might be doing something wrong but the other TTF fonts I tried look OK.
16:46:54 <oren> Well I mean, those other ttf fonts were generated by programs written by people who understood ttf formatbetter than me
16:47:21 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bdf2ttf.htm
16:48:00 <oren> rather than by a c program written using documentation found online
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16:48:14 <shachaf> I don't understand TTF at all.
16:48:26 <oren> it works fine in a web browser and in most terminals
16:49:51 <oren> I mean, it's definitely possible I made a mistake that only causes problems in some circumstances.
16:50:48 <oren> ttf is really badly documented
16:51:56 <oren> I didn't even *attempt* to do any of the special hinting program stuff
16:53:04 <shachaf> It might have to do with how I'm packing the thing.
16:53:08 <oren> "\0n\0e\0o\0l\0e\0t\0t\0e\0r\0s" yay for doing UTF-16 the stupid way
16:55:04 <oren> I'm pretty proud of my algorithm for converting the bitmap into a series of curves
16:57:02 <shachaf> face->size->metrics.height is 1024 (16px?), but the actual glyphs are of height 24px
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16:58:41 <oren> the glphs ought to be 16 px high tho
16:59:10 <oren> hmm, where did I put 24 px
17:00:19 <shachaf> I mean, I'm loading it at a particular size to get bitmaps.
17:00:26 <shachaf> Presumably things are being scaled to give me these numbers.
17:06:56 <shachaf> OK, this looks a bit better: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font-2.png
17:07:25 <shachaf> In that things are being packed correctly. But the height is still wrong.
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17:11:16 <shachaf> In http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font-3.png
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17:12:14 <oren> it looks like it thinks the height is half of what it is
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17:13:20 <oren> Well, I have a theory that my values in the OS/2 table are wrong
17:13:30 <int-e> nice vertical kerning ;-)
17:14:08 <shachaf> I can just take credit for this new innovation.
17:14:47 <int-e> Doesn't that happen in Japanese calligraphy?
17:15:18 * int-e is playing with Coq.
17:15:24 <shachaf> You mean text written vertically?
17:15:29 <int-e> It's not as terrible yet as I was told it would be.
17:15:37 <shachaf> OK, perpendicular ligatures.
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17:18:05 <oren> so basically, the ttf format has a bunch of pairs of ascent and descent values
17:18:22 <oren> for my font these would be 12 and 4
17:18:25 <shachaf> Oh, I bet I should be using those values.
17:18:34 <shachaf> oren: Are write32 etc. doing endianness swaps?
17:18:48 <shachaf> Why are you writing the code in a way that's both unportable and hard to understand?
17:18:54 <oren> shachaf: yeah they all do endianness
17:18:54 <shachaf> Endianness swaps are scow.
17:20:04 <shachaf> unsigned char buf[4] = { c >> 24, c >> 16, c >> 8, c };
17:20:07 <oren> so, suppose that i got the sign wrong on one of my descent values
17:20:25 <shachaf> Endianness swaps should be illegal.
17:21:06 <oren> if that happened, the descent would effectively be -4, making the whole hieght of the character 12 - 4 = 8, instead of 12 + 4 = 16
17:22:06 <oren> that's my best guess as to what is happening
17:22:26 <shachaf> ascender is 24, descender is 7
17:22:58 <oren> rounding involved I guess
17:23:40 <shachaf> Ascender is 1536, descender is 448
17:24:14 <oren> but is that descent measured downward or upward I wonder
17:24:50 <shachaf> Ascender is 1920, descender is -512
17:25:19 <int-e> 'match lst as b return (lst = b -> A) with' <-- now what.
17:26:26 <oren> yeah it's definitely a sign problem in one of my descender values
17:29:06 <oren> yup, hhea.descent is suppose to be negative
17:30:37 <oren> hhea.descent is of type "FWORD"
17:31:02 <oren> yeah maybe I should compress it?
17:32:57 <shachaf> But I lost that great ligature.
17:33:14 <shachaf> I guess it's not a ligature in this case, just good kerning.
17:33:58 <oren> I think css supports negative % line height?
17:34:18 <oren> I've seen it used for fonts that have excessive vertical space
17:34:35 <shachaf> I mean, I can certainly do it.
17:34:47 <shachaf> But it doens't happen naturally now.
17:37:01 <oren> zip compresses it to 5 megabytes
17:37:56 <oren> I guess that's like, 20% size
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19:18:32 <kmc> so how do people do Baba Is You esoprogramming
19:18:35 <kmc> is there a level editor?
19:27:40 <int-e> https://babaiswiki.fandom.com/wiki/Level_editor seems to be the answer to that question
19:31:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61260&oldid=61259 * Helen * (-9791) /* Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen */ Moved to bottom (part 1)
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19:33:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61261&oldid=61260 * Helen * (+9806) /*Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen*/ Moved to bottom (part 2)
19:39:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61262&oldid=61117 * Helen * (+225) Suggenstion for [[Volatile]]'s push 1 trick
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19:45:44 <b_jonas> hmm, so apparently Taneb hasn't invented Baba is you yet
19:46:01 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61263&oldid=61262 * Helen * (+137) /* Volatile push 1 algorithm */
19:46:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61264&oldid=61263 * Helen * (+4) /* Volatile push 1 algorithm */
19:47:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61265&oldid=61261 * Helen * (+1) /* Some thoughts */ Spelling mistake (sorry I noticed and tried to ignore but I had to)
19:50:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61266&oldid=61264 * Helen * (+189) New suggestion for 1 algorithm
19:54:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61267&oldid=61266 * Helen * (+0)
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20:15:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61268&oldid=61265 * Helen * (+1) /* [Unsuccessful] Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen */ Changed title to be more useful
20:15:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61269&oldid=61268 * Helen * (+11) /* [Unsuccessful] Compilation to Z3 by User:A and User:Helen */
20:16:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61270&oldid=61269 * Helen * (+30) /* Attempt by User:Helen and User:A */
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20:36:37 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61271&oldid=58682 * TuxCrafting * (+9) fix link for DJN
20:44:57 <Taneb> Do you have the other phi
20:46:57 <oren> but that apparently is the wrong way around?
20:49:11 <oren> argh wikipedia doesn't clearly say whether 3d5 is the loopy phi or 3c6!
20:50:51 <HackEso> [U+03D5 GREEK PHI SYMBOL] [U+03C6 GREEK SMALL LETTER PHI]
20:50:54 <oren> and then there is this fucking thing: ᵠ which is called MODIFIER LETTER SMALL GREEK PHI
20:51:08 <shachaf> small phi looks loopy here hth
20:51:26 <oren> but on wikipedia I see a fucking PSI not a PHI
20:52:11 <HackEso> [U+1D60 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL GREEK PHI]
20:54:38 <oren> ok what the fuck Calibri
20:57:50 <oren> where do I report a mistake in Calibri
20:58:40 <shachaf> You use `complain [your complaint]
21:11:39 <oren> how the hell does something like this even happen
21:13:48 <oren> and notget discovered for 5 years in one of the most popular typefaces in the world
21:14:20 <oren> wait no. calibri came out in 2007
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21:24:41 <b_jonas> oren: how do you know it didn't get discovered in 12 years? do you think that if it had been realized, an updated version of the font would have gotten to you by now?
21:25:46 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: \: not found
21:29:53 <oren> b_jonas: the calibri I have is from very recently installed MS Office
21:31:39 <oren> try the string ψϕφᵠ here: https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/calibri
21:32:11 <b_jonas> oren: is the office installer recent too? because I could install twenty year old software very recently if I wanted.
21:32:32 <b_jonas> stupid mathematician question
21:33:40 <b_jonas> you have verified that all of it comes from Calibri, not from replacement fonts, right?
21:34:58 <oren> it's version Version 5.62
21:35:53 <oren> which I guess is not the most recent version
21:36:17 <fizzie> Uh, that https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/calibri view for just ϕφ is /so weird/. All the four possible different combinations of loopiness are there.
21:36:58 <oren> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/phi-characters-in-calibri-font-on-windows-78/e47e42d9-cc6a-4643-af1f-ae38a867575c
21:37:10 <oren> but that Phi-related issue was already reported
21:37:43 <oren> and hasn't been solved as of windows 10
21:38:54 <fizzie> I think there was sort of a note on this in the Unicode code charts, last I was looking this up.
21:39:15 <fizzie> 03C6 GREEK SMALL LETTER PHI: "the ordinary Greek letter, showing considerable glyph variation".
21:40:07 <fizzie> + "in mathematical contexts, the loopy glyph is preferred, to contrast with 03D5".
21:40:36 <fizzie> The notes for 03D5 GREEP PHY SYMBOL on the other hand explicitly say "used as a technical symbol, with a stroked glyph".
21:41:09 <oren> I just got a response from a guy from Microsoft. "Hello, Thank you for reporting this issue. It has been forwarded to the appropriate team within Microsoft."
21:43:42 <fizzie> An euphemism, no doubt.
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21:44:27 <oren> "Just fwiw, I reproduced here easily. Other fonts in the stable have"
21:44:29 <oren> correct glyphs, and it may be just the Calibri regular body font.
21:44:45 <oren> says some guy with an @microsoft.com address
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22:47:32 <salpynx> joining for the phi talk, interesting Unicode issue
22:47:59 <salpynx> https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/03d5/index.htm had an 'Old name' of "GREEK SMALL LETTER SCRIPT PHI", which suggests to me the curly form. Checking up on what this means in specs, looks like Unicode 1.0 U+03D5 was called "GREEK SMALL LETTER SCRIPT PHI", was the curly one, with a note "used as a technical symbol". In 1.1 the name was changed to "GREEK PHI SYMBOL" which represents the technical symbol sense, but looses t
22:52:27 <ais523> I would like to say for the record that despite User:A being involved, bitch is actually an interesting language
22:52:49 <ais523> my guess is that it probably /is/ TC, but the proof may require you to do something silly like shifting the accumuluator by itself
22:53:14 <ais523> …come to think of it, maybe that isn't so silly, you could probably use it as a modulo test?
22:54:02 <fizzie> salpynx: Yes, I didn't notice the answers.microsoft.com also linked to the long story, namely UTR 25 https://unicode.org/reports/tr25/ "2.3.1 Representative Glyphs for Greek Phi" which describes how they swapped the representative glyphs around Unicode 3.0.
22:54:11 <ais523> # is clearly only useful for initialization as it brings the entire virtual machine to a known state
22:54:32 <salpynx> My take is that in 1.0 U+03d5 must be curly, in 1.1 I don't think you can say which the correct glyph for either U+03D5 or U+03C6 is. U+03C6 makes more sense to be curly, because that is the "modern" written form, but for symbol golden ratio requires closed form, while other uses require curly
22:56:44 <ais523> the basic problem is that the only actual conditional that exists in the language checks to see if the accumulator is 0, which makes the language a PDA if you stick entirely to bit-at-a-time operations…
22:57:26 <fizzie> From UTR 25: "For mathematical and technical use, the straight form ϕ of the /small phi/ is an important symbol (TEX \phi) and needs to be consistently distinguishable from the loopy form (TEX \varphi). The straight form phi glyph ϕ is used as the representative glyph for the /phi symbol/ at U+03D5 to satisfy this distinction."
22:57:43 <salpynx> fizzie: I hadn't actually read that, I was just figuring it out from the old 1.0 spec, this looks like good info. I may have assumed the change happened in 1.1 in my previous msg.
22:58:27 <fizzie> It goes on to at least strongly imply U+03D5 must be straight, and says of U+03C6 that "fonts used primarily for Greek text may use either glyph form -- but fonts that also intend to support technical use of the Greek letters should use the loopy form".
22:58:37 <fizzie> To summarize: characters are hard.
23:00:09 <ais523> I think Unicode would have been way better off if it consistently encoded (script, shape) pairs, with the two halves being independent where they made sense to be
23:00:20 <ais523> that way, "technical, phi" and "Greek, phi" wouldn't have to share rules at all
23:00:30 <ais523> (this would also work pretty well for CJK, Cyrillic versus Latin, etc.)
23:00:43 <salpynx> fizzie: agree, characters are hard. From wikipedia the phi article looks to me like probability theory distinguishes between curly phi and old-phi: " probability density function of the normal distribution" vs "characteristic function of a random variable X"
23:00:50 <ais523> two letters which were visually similar would be given the same "shape" even if they had an entirely different meaning (with the script telling them apart)
23:01:51 <j4cbo> see also the Turkish dotted i murders
23:03:25 <ais523> oh yes, this plan fixes Turkish i too
23:04:03 <ais523> the uppercase of (Latin, dotted I) is I (i.e. (Latin, dotless capital I)), and the uppercase of (Turkish, dotted I) is İ (i.e. (Turkish, dotted capital I))
23:04:16 <fizzie> Based on a quick grep, I've never used \phi and \varphi in the same .tex file.
23:05:58 <salpynx> my fix would be to add another meaningful symbol character if curly-phi and old-straight-phi are really meaningfully different symbols, and Greek letter phi can still have either/any glyph.
23:07:44 <salpynx> technical phi seems overloaded currently, as there are two different technical phis you might want to represent
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23:10:05 <fizzie> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER TAILLESS PHI
23:11:12 <salpynx> ais523: agree re. bitch being interesting, I was trying last night to create BCT using the commands. I don't think it is TC as any useful operation you can do to the accumulator ends up destroying it, and the bit-shifting, while tantalising, doesn't actually help
23:11:47 <ais523> salpynx: the problem, from my point of view, is more trying to shift data /out/ of the bit storage
23:12:02 <ais523> you can store arbitrary amounts of data in there, but I can't see any way to figure out how much you have to be able to retrieve it
23:12:16 <ais523> err, nondestructively, at least
23:12:29 <salpynx> granted I wasn't trying super hard, but since I can't _proove_ it isn't TC, I'm just going to state opinions in chat FWIW...
23:14:18 <oerjan> <Taneb> ...brainfuck was the features language on the wiki for pretty much my entire time at uni <-- it symbolizes how your brain got well and truly fucked hth
23:15:12 <salpynx> ais523: exactly, that was my experience, you can move bits back and forth, but there is nowhere else to store anything -- I don't think there is a way to simulate two registers, or access both ends for BCT, it still just a single accumulator
23:16:00 <salpynx> it feels close, and that's what makes it interesting I guess. It's not obvious it's not TC, and feels like there could be a trick. I'm not sure I want to spend more time on it though!
23:16:53 <ais523> it'd be TC if there were a way to do an if statement based on the bottom bit, that'd let you so something High Rise-ish
23:17:14 <ais523> not exactly the same, but a similar principle behind the TCness
23:18:51 <ais523> oh, duh: can't you just simulate a 1D cellular automaton?
23:19:39 <ais523> rule 110 seems trivial to write in this, as does simulating an infinite repeating pattern at one end; unfortunately, the rule 110 TCness proof requires a repeating pattern at /both/ ends
23:20:02 <ais523> but we aren't limited to neighbourhoods of size 1, so just pick a more complex automaton that works from a blank tape
23:20:36 <ais523> the problem at this point is the lack of parentheses in expressions…
23:20:56 <ais523> you have enough power to write automata but maybe not all automata
23:20:59 <salpynx> are there other candidates other than 110?
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23:21:34 <ais523> salpynx: in terms of size-1-neighbourhood, and not counting rules that are symmetrically equivalent, rule 30 is the other main candidate, its TCness is unknown
23:22:39 <salpynx> right, that's the random number generating one
23:22:51 <ais523> *allegedly it's not a very good RNG
23:22:56 <ais523> but Mathematica uses it as one, yes
23:24:59 <salpynx> hmm, that seems like a more promising avenue. All the talk about loops and conditionals didn't seem like the main obstacle. The Z3 article was an interesting addition to the wiki, but I don't see how helped that much with bitch. CA seems worthwhile to pursue further
23:26:03 <ais523> if you can't use conditionals you pretty much have to use a ZISC, and cellular automata are about all you can manage in terms of a ZISC on a single string of bits
23:26:14 <ais523> if you don't have a separate pointer into it
23:28:10 <salpynx> There's a lot of noise on the bitch TC talk page, but it does seem like a legitimately interesting question. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so
23:29:35 <ais523> the next problem is how to actually do the CA steps using only operations of the form a @= a << k and a @= a >> k, for constant k and @ representing and/or/xor
23:30:04 <ais523> I have a feeling that you place the bits onto the tape in a very spread-out way, and possibly use some sort of Golomb ruler to make the correct bits interact
23:31:02 <ais523> the problem being, how do you prevent the unused tape elements from interfering with the ones you want to use?
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23:34:22 <salpynx> Is there a way to prove something isn't TC? I feel it's down to the "2"ness of needing at least two registers or counters for a Minsky machine, and any number of equivalent TC formulations, you need two distinct places for some kind of manipulation, and bitch only gives you one, maybe one and a bit
23:35:05 <oerjan> i'm not sure for CAs, because they sort of ignore the halting thing
23:35:10 <ais523> if something is very low-powered, you can normally prove it sub-TC either with a state-counting argument or the pumping lemma
23:35:23 <ais523> however, for more powerful languages like PDAs and LBAs, that's much harder
23:35:46 <oerjan> for things that clearly halt, proving you can decide halting is a way
23:35:52 <ais523> if you can prove that there's something a language can't do, that normally proves it sub-TC, but it's hard to make that work
23:36:00 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, proving decidability also works
23:36:22 <ais523> although you can have a language with no explicit halt state that's still T/C (e.g. the I/D machine), you have to define some other way to observe output though
23:36:44 <ais523> normally the halt state compiles to some sort of tight loop
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23:39:51 <oerjan> <ais523> the problem being, how do you prevent the unused tape elements from interfering with the ones you want to use? <-- maybe you can place bits strategically to allow post-cleanup after each round
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23:45:09 <ais523> actually, the bigger problem seems to be the fact that you only have one bitshift per statement
23:47:17 <salpynx> Looking for bugs or unspecified helpful behaviour in the interpreters was another avenue I thought of, but is cheaty. I only tried the TIO version to get a feel for how helpful the bit shift was
23:49:29 <oerjan> <oren> *kʷos? <-- no bitcoin, settle for pie?
23:50:46 * oerjan hasn't actually looked carefully at Bitch. and is afraid of looking at the latest talk page edits.
23:52:12 <salpynx> the language stands alone and is easy enough to understand, some of the examples are probably distracting too, but the basic spec is fine
23:52:16 <oerjan> `doag share/UnicodeData.txt
23:52:17 <HackEso> 11561:2018-05-15 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
23:52:40 <oerjan> `fetch share/UnicodeData.txt http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
23:52:44 <HackEso> 2019-04-17 23:52:44 URL:http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt [1797715/1797715] -> "share/UnicodeData.txt" [1]
23:53:19 <oerjan> something's apparently wrong.
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23:53:55 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x82\xbf' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
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23:54:11 <oerjan> that's been seen before
23:54:44 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x9b\x84' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
23:54:51 <HackEso> [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
23:55:19 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x9b\x84' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
23:55:31 <oerjan> i cannot quite remember if that used to work.
23:57:58 <oerjan> maybe they haven't updated that file.
23:58:16 <oerjan> but putty shows the character just fine :(