00:03:38 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61387&oldid=60811 * DMC * (-1) /* Truth Machine */
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00:37:32 <ais523> I analyzed the Google Ngrams data to produce a list of bytes in UTF-8 encoded English in frequency order (\b = word boundary, Ngrams doesn't record what nature the word boundary had but it's normally a space) \betaoinsrhldcufmpg\"wyb.vkTI1ASC,xE-'MH20PBRN;LO93WDFq8G54()j67z:J\342\200U\224VYK?!X*/\302Q][Z\242&\$^\303%\260\243\251\253\273>\\\247=<\320+_|~}\240\321\250\236#\241{\274\263\204\244\255\276\261\252\223\202\201\266\256\277\265\234\@\254\235\26
00:37:33 <ais523> 270\237\264\272\305\245\222\226\357\275\271\203\267\217\233\211\210\207\257\216\215\232\246\220\214\213\231\230\205\221\225\343\227\206`\344\212\345\347\346
00:37:54 <ais523> it's interesting seeing capital letters mixed in with the lowercase like that
00:41:24 <ais523> just the ASCII from the above: etaoinsrhldcufmpg"wyb.vkTI1ASC,xE-'MH20PBRN;LO93WDFq8G54()j67z:JUVYK?!X*/Q][Z&$^%>\=<+_|~}#{@`
00:42:12 <ais523> the position of " seems to be an anomaly, presumably it's a consequence of books with lots of dialogue?
00:44:21 <ais523> b_jonas: there are constructions like (a)(b) versus (b)(a) versus (ab), so the compatibility restriction here isn't transitively closed, but that list isn't pairwise compatible (because (a)(b) isn't compatible with (b)(a))
00:45:00 <ais523> also, my 5638 strings are each reorderings of the above byte list, so no repeated characters
00:45:24 <ais523> (I'm trying to generate context-sensitive Huffman codes for English, and looking for a way to compress the resulting codebook into, ideally, less than a megabyte or so)
00:46:32 <ais523> @tell user24 normally a "minor edit" is one that doesn't change the meaning of the page, so it's things like typo fixes, formatting fixes and grammar fixes; anything which changes the meaning of what's written on the page should be marked non-minor
01:37:34 <kmc> love is defeat, love is love
01:37:43 <kmc> I played BIY on the plaaaaaaane
01:47:04 <kmc> I got to the space levels
01:47:07 <kmc> gurer ner fbzr vagrerfgvat guvatf lbh pna qb jvgu 'rzcgl'. bar guvat V'z jbaqrevat vf jurgure 'rzcgl vf chyy' vf tbbq sbe nalguvat, vg frrzf gb rssrpgviryl cerirag lbh sebz zbivat ohg gur tnzr qbrfa'g fhttrfg erfgnegvat gur yriry jura guvf unccraf
01:48:30 <shachaf> I think it only suggests restarting when nothing is you.
01:50:06 <zzo38> Hopefully it will still let you to restart even if it is not a suggestion
03:21:06 <kmc> zzo38: yes, you can restart any time
03:21:15 <kmc> and also undo by single steps
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03:28:10 <kmc> no because i'm not playing
03:28:14 <kmc> unless you mean restart my life
03:28:18 <kmc> in which case also no
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03:34:53 <HackEso> gerzytet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:36:09 <gerzytet> I browse that wiki a lot. Came here because of BF joust.
03:38:12 <shachaf> ais523: This is frequency in words, not frequency in text, right?
03:38:42 <ais523> shachaf: it's frequency in text (i.e. weighted by how often the word appears in text)
03:38:59 <ais523> the source information was a list of words and their frequencies, so I extrapolated frequency in text from there
03:40:09 <shachaf> Right. I forgot that was available.
03:40:35 <shachaf> Is there a use for UTF-8 byte frequencies?
03:41:01 <ais523> yes: I'm trying to make context-dependent Huffman tables, and I'm making them predict a byte at a time
03:41:22 <shachaf> OK, obviously I should read everything you said rather than respond as I see each line.
03:41:46 <shachaf> I think kmc once asked me about something similar to this.
03:41:54 <ais523> actually compressing the resulting set of tables optimally is probably NP-complete, but I'm using a compression algo which I hope is decent enough
03:42:19 <shachaf> <kmc> shachaf: if you have 16 bytes of valid UTF-8, not necessarily starting or ending on a character boundary, and you map each byte to an element of the set K = { ASCII, Start2Byte, Start3Byte, Start4Byte, Continuation }, how many distinct values of K^16 can you create?
03:42:23 <shachaf> That's not the same problem.
03:43:08 <ais523> you have to treat some of the start and continuation bytes separately so that you don't end up, e.g. encoding a surrogate
03:43:36 <shachaf> I think the context of that problem was decoding valid UTF-8.
03:44:05 <shachaf> UTF-16 should just go away. twh
03:44:10 <ais523> well, for my use-case, I don't know that the input is valid UTF-8, and it might legitimately be invalid UTF-8, but I think that valid UTF-8 is rather more probable
03:44:22 <ais523> so invalid UTF-8 is getting longer encodings in the Huffman trees
03:44:45 <shachaf> Oh, you meant your use case. Sure.
03:46:33 <ais523> (this is another reason to work at the byte rather than character level – we don't know encodings for certain)
03:48:09 <ais523> just working with the google 1grams is data-heavy enough; I'd like to do the same sort of thing with the 2grams at some point but I don't think I have enough disk space
03:56:16 <zzo38> See if you have comments for these new Magic: the Gathering cards nntp://zzo38computer.org/doc.news.conspiracies0@zzo38computer.org
03:58:12 <ais523> "doc.news.conspiracies" is somewhere to post M:tG cards?
03:58:28 <zzo38> ais523: No; that is a message ID.
03:59:33 <zzo38> (I prepare the messages in a directory ~/doc/news and then the file is called "conspiracies0", so I assigned that as the message ID. You are not required to use this scheme for your own message IDs; it is only for my own convenience and nothing else.)
03:59:50 <zzo38> (The newsgroup name is "un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.custom")
04:00:34 <gerzytet> !zjoust little (->+>)*4(>[(+)*4[-]]+)*10000
04:00:35 <zemhill_______> gerzytet.little: points -7.55, score 14.28, rank 40/47
04:04:39 <ais523> I do, but only for communicating with Usenet
04:05:01 <zzo38> That URL works with Lynx. If you do not have Lynx, another way to download it is to connect on port 119 and enter the command: ARTICLE <doc.news.conspiracies0@zzo38computer.org>
04:21:36 <gerzytet> after some messing around, I found that this program has about the same point score (-7.52) as my rush: >+<(++-)*-1. I have no idea how that's just as effective
04:22:08 <gerzytet> I didn't think THAT many warriors would suicide
04:25:55 <ais523> gerzytet: warriors that set many decoys tend to do better on the hill, so warriors that prey on decoy-heavy strategies also tend to survive
04:26:16 <ais523> that means that decoy-light strategies will often beat a reasonable proportion of opponents, although they rarely do /very/ well
04:28:05 <gerzytet> what kind of strategies are used to counter decoy-heavy warriors?
04:29:03 <ais523> one is to try to guess the length of the tape from the opponent's decoy placement, e.g. you can assume it probably goes several cells beyond what you suspect is a decoy
04:29:40 <ais523> another is to take advantage of the time the opponent spends setting up their decoys somehow, typically getting "inside" the decoy setup without the opponent realising you have and probing around to try to find the flag
04:32:37 <gerzytet> would that second one only work if the opponent does a reverse decoy setup?
04:32:54 <ais523> yes, unless the decoys near the flag are so small that you can get past them within your probe loop
04:36:28 <ais523> fwiw, there are some programs, like ais523.margins, that do attempt to exploit the fact that many programs suicide or get stuck against an actively defended flag
04:36:37 <ais523> (margins attempts to win on tape length 10 and 11 and draw everything else)
04:38:13 <gerzytet> ok, basically what I got out of your description was: you've got one program that starts near the middle and build decoys in towards the flag, but the program on the other side jumps past using tripwire avoidance or whatever, and steamrolls past lightly defended/undefended territory
04:38:56 <ais523> yes, there are many cases of that happening on the hill (especially on shorter tape lengths)
04:39:47 <ais523> normally, there's little risk to setting up decoys on a long tape, and huge risk on a short tape (the opponent will just rule-of-nine past them), but the problem is you don't know how long the tape is in advance
04:40:07 <ais523> some programs will attempt to figure out the approximate tape length by looking for enemy decoys; that's another way that not setting decoys can gain
04:42:50 <gerzytet> wouldn't a program like that have a wait a little bit so give the enemy a chance to setup decoys, especially on shorter tapes?
04:48:57 <ais523> it can set up decoys of its own meanwhile
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09:04:21 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61388&oldid=60873 * YamTokTpaFa * (+22)
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09:17:34 <esowiki> [[User:Coates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61389&oldid=50035 * Coates * (-47) Updated
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09:21:06 <esowiki> [[KanjiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61390&oldid=33768 * YamTokTpaFa * (+17)
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09:42:36 <b_jonas> ais523: ah right, that's a simpler example for not being transitive
09:45:39 <b_jonas> gerzytet: so are you the person who submitted web.le-basic-rush-2 to zemhill yesterday?
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12:45:31 <HackEso> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
12:47:46 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
12:50:12 <HackEso> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
12:50:14 <HackEso> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
12:52:31 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
13:13:40 <HackEso> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
13:19:40 <fizzie> A flat earth clock was pretty high up in Play Store's chart of top selling Android apps.
13:20:55 <fizzie> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flatearthsun -- today it's showing up at position #112, which is less high up.
13:22:19 <b_jonas> http://www.rogermwilcox.com/square_earth.html
13:24:21 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61391&oldid=60913 * YamTokTpaFa * (+825)
13:28:41 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61392&oldid=61391 * YamTokTpaFa * (+473) /* Specifications */
13:31:51 <gerzytet> Question: if you were to take a language like befunge-98, and remove all the instructions that can modify/read from the program space, is the stack alone enough to maintain turing-completeness, assuming an infinite stack?
13:33:09 <fizzie> Funge-98 doesn't have just a stack, it has a stack stack.
13:33:28 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61393&oldid=61392 * YamTokTpaFa * (+274) /* Instructions */
13:36:35 <fizzie> A single stack is generally not enough to be TC, hence Befunge-93 (which has a fixed-size 80x25 playfield) isn't.
13:38:14 <rain1> presumably there are counterexamples though?
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13:48:12 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61394&oldid=61393 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1042) /* Instructions */
13:48:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but doesn't befunge have a pick instruction that can reach deep into the stack using an index? hmm, let me look up befunge
13:48:41 <b_jonas> I ought to know this stuff, I nominated it as a featured article
13:49:12 <b_jonas> nope, it doesn't have a pick instruction
13:51:27 <b_jonas> yeah, what fizzie says, it has some extra "stack stack" instructions
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13:54:53 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61395&oldid=61394 * YamTokTpaFa * (+309) /* Specifications */
13:56:22 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61396&oldid=61395 * YamTokTpaFa * (+93) /* Specifications */
13:57:22 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61397&oldid=60882 * YamTokTpaFa * (+20) /* Specifications */
14:01:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esolime * New user account
14:10:24 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61398&oldid=61396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+655) /* Instructions */
14:12:34 <esowiki> [[Bfstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61399&oldid=61385 * Coates * (-1)
14:13:22 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61400&oldid=61398 * YamTokTpaFa * (+355) /* Conditional looping */
14:15:48 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61401&oldid=61400 * YamTokTpaFa * (+79) /* Arithmetic operation */
14:17:44 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61402&oldid=61401 * YamTokTpaFa * (+270) /* Termination */
14:18:17 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61403&oldid=61402 * YamTokTpaFa * (+17) /* Conditional looping */
14:19:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: Funge-98 in fact does have a "pick" instruction as well, it's just disguised: the y "Get Sysinfo" instruction can be used to pick.
14:20:17 <fizzie> "An interesting side-effect of this behaviour is that if y is given an argument that exceeds the number of cells it pushes onto the stack, it can act as a 'pick' instruction on data that was on the stack before y was even executed."
14:20:41 <fizzie> From https://github.com/catseye/Funge-98/blob/master/doc/funge98.markdown
14:21:21 <fizzie> (It's very inconvenient, because the number of cells pushed by y is variable.)
14:22:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61404&oldid=61338 * Esolime * (+186)
14:25:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61405&oldid=61404 * Esolime * (+41)
14:25:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: but can't you use the stack in stack instructions to deal with that variability?
14:25:41 <b_jonas> really I don't understand how those stack stack instructions work
14:29:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61406&oldid=61405 * Esolime * (+18)
14:29:44 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61407&oldid=61403 * YamTokTpaFa * (+308) /* Arithmetic operation */
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14:38:22 <fizzie> They're pretty idiosyncratic, though you can implement a pick using them directly.
14:40:55 <fizzie> 5{1u:00p01-u5}00g is essentially "peek at cell 5", using location (0, 0) as scratch space.
14:43:47 <fizzie> ...er, not quite, thanks to the storage offset.
14:44:00 <fizzie> The storage offset is such a pain.
14:46:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: um, but gerzytet asked what you can do without using cells as storage. if you have the p and g commands to use cells as storage, then you can just use that for most of your memory, and just a few slots of stack for commands.
14:47:02 <b_jonas> you don't need braces then, you can just put the whole stack into cells then
14:47:31 <fizzie> Sure, I was just talking about picking from the stack in general.
14:48:28 <fizzie> Anyway, you can do it without the scratch space as well, because you can use u to reverse the order of topmost N cells on the stack.
14:49:18 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61408&oldid=61407 * YamTokTpaFa * (+916) /* Conditional looping */
14:50:34 <fizzie> Yes, assuming you don't need to restore a previous storage offset, 5{$$05-u000} should reverse the order of the 5 topmost cells.
14:51:47 <fizzie> Also assuming two spatial dimensions.
14:52:50 <fizzie> If the stack stack was initially ...[... a b c d e f], then 5{$$ makes it ...[... a][b c d e f], the 05-u moves the elements back with a push-pop loop resulting in ...[... a f e d c b][], and the 000} gets rid of the empty stack on top, setting the storage offset to (0, 0).
15:06:23 <j-bot> b_jonas: 0.0047625
16:04:40 <zzo38> Do some Funge-98 implementations have options to define the character coding in use for the source file? You might specify either 8-bit coding or 31-bit UTF-8 coding (this is the range specified by the Funge-98 documentation, which is far more than Unicode); you could also allow overlong UTF-8 sequences to allow line break characters to appear directly in Funge-Space. A fingerprint definition for Glk can also be made.
16:24:12 <rain1> maybe turing complete language with just a stack could be done by having the stack act like the C call stack, but also include pieces of code
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19:57:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61409&oldid=61406 * Alvarito050506 * (+167)
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20:37:14 <zzo38> Does any software for PC with CGA or MDA using hardware scrolling?
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20:56:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, Commander Keen first trilogy does on CGA, scrolls in an increment of 4 pixels which makes the scrolling a bit jittery
20:57:13 <b_jonas> great game though, especially the second one. best level design ever, where it uses coke cans and scrubs in an innovative way.
20:58:00 <b_jonas> coke cans are score items, but unlike others, they're also solid if you land on them from the above (not from the side or below); scrubs are enemy sprites that don't hurt you, climb around on walls even upside down, and you can stand on them
20:59:16 <zzo38> Hardware scrolling in low resolution graphics mode is always a multiple of eight pixels (if it is horizontal), I think. (Vertical scrolling in graphics mode would be a multiple of two pixels.)
21:00:21 <b_jonas> maybe it's eight pixels, I don't really remember
21:00:25 <b_jonas> I haven't played it for years
21:00:35 <b_jonas> you can probably find out by looking at youtube videos of its gameplay
21:08:04 <zzo38> Does any program use hardware scrolling with text mode?
21:09:55 <b_jonas> I don't know how CGA and EGA hardware work
21:10:49 <zzo38> Yes, it is possible (although only by a multiple of a character cell; fine scrolling is not possible)
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21:11:49 <zzo38> Do you have any comments of the many conspiracy cards of Magic: the Gathering cards that I posted to Unusenet recently?
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21:12:10 <b_jonas> I did find scrolling in VGA text mode, but only horizontal scrolling of one line, and on modern hardware
21:12:18 <b_jonas> I simply updated the font quickly in every frame
21:12:51 <b_jonas> I haven't looked at those cards. have you added them to the textfiles website on gopher? or have you abandonned that in favor of nntp?
21:13:10 <sombrero> PARDON THE INTERRUPTION, does someone have insider news of the Minix "issue" https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/minix issuemi ??
21:13:58 <zzo38> I still have that file, although I intend to now use it for once the cards are actually ready, instead. Currently they have no names, and may need review; I should preferably do that first before putting them into the file, I think.
21:14:14 <zzo38> (That way they can be discussed first before being published properly.)
21:14:47 <sombrero> https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/
21:14:51 <b_jonas> you could put them in a different file?
21:17:36 <sombrero> of the the intel-minix issue inside your Intel thing ..if you use intel
21:17:49 <zzo38> sombrero: I don't know much about Minix
21:19:00 <zzo38> b_jonas: They are in the file on the NNTP. (You do not need any special software in order to access it; I even added the POSTQUIT command to make it convenient to reply without any special NNTP software, too.)
21:20:04 <zzo38> (Simply type ARTICLE followed by the message ID with < and > around it.)
21:20:28 <zzo38> (You can also post your own ideas there, if you have your own ideas of new Magic: the Gathering cards, please!)
21:23:31 <sombrero> as a last info in this direction, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iffTJ1vPCSo , but there is no much more info in this topic
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22:42:46 <zzo38> DOSBOX has no command to set the date/time. If I add a program to do that, will it work (for the current session only)?
22:43:14 <pikhq> Where does DOSbox even get its idea of time? System local time?
22:43:44 <zzo38> That is what it seems to do
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23:08:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, ask the TASers or ais523, I think they use dosbox and set the time to manipulate randomness in DOS games
23:10:25 <zzo38> What I tried doesn't seems to work. I tried assembly language (with DEBUG), and I also tried BASIC, but in both cases, it won't set the time.
23:10:43 <b_jonas> I mean, I'm not sure about it, but it's worth a chance that they know
23:13:44 <zzo38> Maybe overriding the interrupt table will work? I don't know
23:19:28 <MDude> https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ladyv0jibb hmm
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