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00:38:02 <ais523_> <Hooloovo0> the problem is that it used flow control pins as data pins... which if you have a real serial port, that's fine ← if you're doing that, it isn't a serial port, it's a parallel port
00:40:32 <kmc> ais523_: well, except that the actual TI protocol is serial, isn't it
00:40:34 <kmc> clock + data?
00:41:04 <ais523_> I guess you could use the flow control pins as data pins, but not the actual data pins, but that seems perverse
00:41:22 <ais523_> if you're using two different pins to send data simultaneously, though, it isn't a serial connection by definition :-)
00:41:38 <imode> bits go one at a time down a single wire.
00:41:46 <kmc> so it's using a "serial port" (as in 8250 compatible UART on a PC) in the common manner of a parallel port (GPIO bitbang) to implement a serial protocol :P
00:42:09 <kmc> ais523_: SPI is clock + bidirectional data, 3 pins (4 including a chip select) and that's universally considered serial
00:42:39 <kmc> Hooloovo0: btw the PIClink here seems to be an example of what I was saying re: programming a micro to act like a grey link http://merthsoft.com/linkguide/cable.html
00:44:29 <kmc> anyway i'm not clear on what the hardware level link protocol is
00:44:44 <fizzie> The TI link protocol is pretty special.
00:46:24 <fizzie> When you want to send a bit, you pull one wire to zero, and the receiving end acknowledges by pulling the other wire to zero.
00:46:36 <fizzie> Which wire you pull determines if it was a 0 or a 1 bit.
00:46:51 <fizzie> So there's no clock involved, it runs at whatever speed it runs.
00:47:11 <fizzie> Disclaimer: all I know about this probably came from http://paperlined.org/EE/microcontrollers/pic/projects/portable_VT_terminal/ti_86_link_port/link86all.htm -- at least that page looks familiar.
00:47:35 <ais523_> <kmc> ais523_: SPI is clock + bidirectional data, 3 pins (4 including a chip select) and that's universally considered serial ← sorry, should have added "in the same direction" to that
00:47:55 <kmc> fizzie: huh, weird.
00:48:09 <kmc> cool, this has the info I was looking for
00:48:36 <fizzie> kmc: Well, it does let you do it all in software on CPUs that might run at rather uncontrolled speeds, without having to have an UART or whatnot.
00:51:07 <ais523_> hmm, that's an interesting way to fit the normal three wires that an async connection uses (data + strobe + ack) into two, although they both have to be drivable from both ends
00:51:07 <kmc> it seems pretty clever
00:51:18 <kmc> it also allows you to immediately tell if the other side is present
00:51:51 <ais523_> I assume that after sending a bit, then the sender undoes their pull, then the recipient undoes their pull, to keep the connection as delay-insensitive
00:52:12 <kmc> so i would say this is still serial because it transfers one bit of information at a time, even though it uses two wires to do it
00:52:35 <kmc> and yeah, it seems this allows the receiving end to slow down the sender when necessary
00:52:55 <kmc> effectively negotiating a baud rate which is the slower of what the two sides want
00:52:59 <kmc> it's actually very clever
00:53:07 <kmc> I might even use this sometime in one of my own projects
00:53:25 <kmc> I have used Manchester code for something
00:53:54 <ais523_> throughout my PhD I was working on a compiler to hardware which uses a delay-insensitive representation internally for most of the compilation process
00:54:05 <kmc> which is synchronous, so the bit times have to be roughly the same, but it has clock recovery so no precise absolute frequency reference is required
00:54:12 <ais523_> (for much the same reason that compilers to software use SSA or similar normal forms; you don't want to care about timing details until the compilation is finished)
00:54:17 <kmc> makes sense
00:54:32 <ais523_> so I ended up doing a lot of background reading on asynchronous circuitry
00:55:08 <imode> there's a "bible" for asynchronous circuit design.
00:55:09 <ais523_> you nearly always need a separate wire for 0 bits and for 1 bits because you assume that the recipient can't tell which of two wires changed first
00:55:26 <ais523_> but normally, the acknowledgement would be on a third wire
00:55:27 <imode> asynchronous pipelines are neat. I built one.
00:55:54 <ais523_> a big advantage of doing things that way is that you don't need to reset the logic levels after sending a bit, you just toggle the 0 wire or the 1 wire to send the bit
00:56:01 <ais523_> and the recipient toggles the ack wire to acknowledge
00:56:23 <kmc> this also reminds me of CAN a bit
00:56:25 <imode> https://hatebin.com/huuywfgrqq save this as "pipeline.circ" and open it in http://www.cburch.com/logisim/
00:56:25 <ais523_> imode: is this the famous "micropipelines" paper?
00:56:32 <kmc> it's open-collector and it has clock stretching sort of
00:56:40 <imode> ais523_: sutherland? partially. there was a larger book.
00:56:48 <ais523_> the funny thing is, one of the references in that paper is dubious, and people keep copying it into their own reference lists without actually chasing the reference
00:57:01 <imode> http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/edoc_download.php/855/pdf/imm855.pdf this thing.
00:57:04 <ais523_> meaning that you have this book that's highly cited but almost nobody has actually read
00:57:51 <ais523_> (the book was basically just being used as a surrogate source for a particular statement because the original source would have been very hard to get hold of at the time; however, the original source for the statement has since been digitised so it's much easier to find)
00:58:35 <ais523_> (and it's basically just a throwaway line in the book, rather than giving any additional context)
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01:18:03 <oerjan> <b_jonas> ok, so this channel is about esoteric hardware too now <-- pretty sure it's been that for a long time
01:25:35 <ais523_> programming isn't limited to software
01:26:12 <ais523_> although, the hardware meaning of "programming" normally means "to copy a program to" (where the program is usually software, but could be firmware or even a blueprint for making hardware)
02:02:40 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I'm signed up for the float tank at 11am tomorrow :)
02:06:24 <ais523_> hmm, so I guess "esoteric programming" in hardware would be updating the state of reconfigurable hardware via some ridiculous mechanism
02:06:31 <ais523_> such as waving magnets at it
02:06:41 <imode> magnetized needle and a steady hand.
02:08:29 <kmc> hit it with a hammer
02:40:16 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there's an old "real programmer" joke about that
02:40:56 <ais523_> there's an xkcd which may be either a) the joke you're thinking of or b) a parody of the joke you're thinking of
02:41:08 <ais523_> but I don't have xkcd numbers memorized
02:43:34 <imode> https://www.xkcd.com/378/
02:43:35 <b_jonas> and I think you mean https://www.xkcd.com/378/
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03:50:37 <Hooloovo0> kmc, merth's link guide should have the best info on that
03:50:54 <Hooloovo0> http://merthsoft.com/linkguide/hardware.html
03:52:09 <Hooloovo0> it's not really clock+data serial - it's more of a a send/ack serial
03:54:13 <imode> it's okay. this channel is logged.
03:54:36 <imode> you can use lambdabot's @message feature to send a message to him as well.
04:00:00 <kmc> Hooloovo0: yeah I got the gist of it
04:00:14 <kmc> it's a clever solution really
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08:59:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Hellborne]]": Author request: abandoned idea, didn't get very far with design
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10:56:14 <fizzie> I though they'd gotten bored of that.
10:56:48 <int-e> I had the same hope.
10:57:14 <int-e> fizzie: Can you invite Sigyn? I think it should trigger on blatant repeated messages like that.
10:58:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
10:59:00 -!- Sigyn has joined.
10:59:00 <Sigyn> ** Warning: if there is any bot in #esoteric which should be exempted from Sigyn, contact staffers before it gets caught **
10:59:17 <fizzie> That's a little scary.
10:59:21 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
11:01:49 <int-e> I guess esowiki is at risk?
11:02:16 <int-e> not sure about the rest, they usually just react and are not too repetetive.
11:02:37 <fizzie> Well, depends on what you ask them to do.
11:03:25 <fizzie> zemhill_* can also repeat the same message over and over again, if someone's submitting stuff on the webs. Hmm.
11:05:30 <int-e> I'm kind of curious how this will/would play out.
11:07:20 <myname> it is not that uncommon that people ask the same trigger repeatedly, but i guess, that shouldn't be too often
11:11:16 <fizzie> Maybe I should talk to a staffer anyway.
11:11:44 <fizzie> Also, maybe I should register an account for HackEso.
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11:13:26 <wib_jonas> Is there a doc for that bot? It doesn't mention one in Taxonomy
11:14:10 <fizzie> I found relatively little information about it by Googling.
11:17:20 <wib_jonas> it has a freenode/* cloak though, let me ask #freenode
11:21:55 <wib_jonas> fizzie: "<Fuchs> wib_jonas: the bot k-lines (and kills, in addition) on various triggers, most famously people repeating patterns"
11:22:01 <wib_jonas> "<Fuchs> so it most certainly does have side effects, and if the channel has official bots that could look a bit spammy, we should be informed so we can whitelist them before putting sigyn in the channel"
11:22:17 <wib_jonas> fizzie: go to #freenode and talk to ops there
11:22:37 <wib_jonas> fizzie: also, they admit that is ran by freenode
11:23:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm trying to get an account for HackEso and esowiki because I assume that'd be useful for whitelisting.
11:24:08 <int-e> fizzie: now I'm feeling bad for causing you work :/
11:24:16 <fizzie> (I think I'm just going to need to connect as them temporarily, since I don't think either has a great way of injecting raw text.)
11:25:45 <int-e> yeah at the very least you'll have to acquire the nick somehow
11:26:21 <int-e> but they also have to learn to register with nickserv on startup.
11:26:42 <int-e> well, authenticate
11:26:55 <fizzie> There's the password approach, I think both of them can do that.
11:27:36 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:29:53 <fizzie> Hm, well, I don't think multibot actually does passwords. I'll hack that in.
11:30:52 <wib_jonas> fizzie: there are at least three ways to log in: (1) with PASSWD, (2) with NICKSERV ID , (3) with the CTCP extension. I can send details if you want later about how the CTCP thing works.
11:31:10 <wib_jonas> each one sends password as cleartext, but that can be inside an ssl/tls connection in either case
11:32:25 <fizzie> I think that should maybe do it.
11:32:37 -!- HackEso has joined.
11:32:48 <fizzie> Yes, that seems to have worked.
11:33:01 <wib_jonas> I have old source code that implemented the CTCP login and worked at one point, though for freenode only and errors out on any other network
11:33:35 <wib_jonas> HackEso is logged into nickserv as HackEso, or so the server claims
11:34:16 <int-e> wib_jonas: I've heard about SASL... but CTCP?
11:34:37 <wib_jonas> I'm talking off the top of my head because I'm a towkr
11:35:01 <wib_jonas> it's SASL, which has so many S and L in its name that you'd think it uses some cryptographic challenge, but it doesn't
11:35:15 <int-e> Okay. CTCP is just a special kind of PRIVMSG so it seemed out of place.
11:35:22 <wib_jonas> it just encodes the account name and password in base64
11:35:23 <fizzie> Well, it can, right? There are SASL methods that involve crypto.
11:35:30 * int-e uses CTCP all the time!
11:35:47 <fizzie> Anyway, I think I'm fine with a TLS connection + PASS on connect.
11:36:15 <fizzie> (The bouncer I use for myself + for fungot does SASL.)
11:36:15 <fungot> fizzie: keep in mind, but i'm sure you can
11:36:25 <wib_jonas> FireFly: are you running j-bot? fizzie has invited Sigyn to #freenode . it's a bot ran by freenode that k-lines users who spam the channel
11:41:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
11:42:21 <fizzie> Okay, I think esowiki, fungot, HackEso, lambdabot are all registered now.
11:42:21 <fungot> fizzie: in fnord it only runs where ghc runs :)
11:42:48 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
11:43:42 <wib_jonas> fizzie: and you mentioned zemhill_________ too
11:44:14 <fizzie> Yes, I just don't want to touch that at this point. It's used very very little.
11:45:43 <fizzie> So what's the normal rule for talking to Freenode ops, should I just pick a random one on the list or ask on the channel?
11:47:12 <wib_jonas> fizzie: in this case, ask Fuchs on #freenode what to do since he already answered a question
11:47:38 <wib_jonas> if it's not a secret thing, then asking on #freenode is the normal way
11:47:53 <wib_jonas> but some operatorial things shouldn't be public, in which case you have to privmsg them
11:48:05 <wib_jonas> like, if you want to mention specific details about the spammer
11:48:18 <int-e> Though the way #freenode is currently set up only staffers will see the messages anyway, I guess.
11:48:38 <int-e> (But their answers will be visible to all.)
11:48:44 <fizzie> Oh, that's interesting.
11:48:49 <wib_jonas> int-e: no, it's not on +mz right now
11:48:54 <int-e> Huh, that's false...
11:49:06 <int-e> wib_jonas: Funny though I didn't see your question? Let me check again.
11:49:12 <int-e> wib_jonas: Or did you ask before I joined?
11:49:15 <fizzie> Right, it's that moderation thing.
11:49:43 <int-e> wib_jonas: You asked about Sigyn on #freenode.
11:50:15 <int-e> wib_jonas: I joined around 12:58, I saw the answer around 13:19... I didn't see your question.
11:50:58 <int-e> But it didn't occur to me that it may have taken longer than 20 minutes to get it... hence my question here, now.
11:54:20 <wib_jonas> int-e: they have unidentified users quieted
11:54:30 <wib_jonas> int-e: in the mode #freenode +q $~a
11:55:08 <wib_jonas> there, now I'm identified, you'll see if I say anything on #freenode, but I no longer have a reason to say anything there
11:56:14 <int-e> I was mystified. I hate being mystified by technology, that's what magic is for :)
12:31:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:55:24 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66559&oldid=66501 * TwilightSparkle * (+908)
12:56:16 -!- atslash has joined.
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13:08:20 <esowiki> [[Byter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66560&oldid=66337 * PaniniTheDeveloper * (+0)
13:18:22 <fizzie> For the record, the Sigyn exemption for those four has been done.
13:20:17 <int-e> lambdabot: spam away!
13:21:30 * int-e surreptitiously hides a lambdabot-shaped sock puppet away.
13:21:44 <arseniiv> lambdabot: what does two added to three centillions equal?
13:22:46 <arseniiv> wait, int-e, are you still there?
13:22:56 <int-e> > 2 + 3*10^303 -- 2 + 3*10^600 in B.E. doesn't fit into IRC.
13:22:58 <lambdabot> 3000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
13:23:23 <int-e> arseniiv: I don't know what a centillion is.
13:23:40 <arseniiv> I found it strange lambdabot didn’t say anything to my plain text question at all
13:23:45 <int-e> (Well, I do for the moment but I have no intent of retaining the information.)
13:23:53 <wib_jonas> if there's such an animal as a llama, then there could be a llion too
13:23:59 <int-e> arseniiv: You do know that she's a bot, right?
13:24:08 <arseniiv> I don't know what a centillion is. => I don’t remember that too
13:24:31 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: usually he answers when you use one of the four prefixes, @ ? > :t
13:24:32 <int-e> arseniiv: And I did hide the sock puppet; it would be foolish to retrieve it just to answer your question.
13:24:55 <int-e> I might be caught lambdabot-handed.
13:25:24 <wib_jonas> @run string "arseniiv: dimension error"
13:25:25 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: string :: [Char] -> t
13:25:30 <wib_jonas> @run var "arseniiv: dimension error"
13:25:40 <arseniiv> int-e: but there could be at least a non-answer like… like I don’t know what precisely but at least something to make sure there’s no infinite loop anywhere
13:26:04 <int-e> arseniiv: try fungot.
13:26:20 <j-bot> wib_jonas: what (is a centillion)
13:26:30 <fungot> I, on the other hand, will never tolerate being used by humans for pretending to be machines.
13:26:47 <arseniiv> perlbot: what is that with making the text yellow
13:26:47 <j-bot> wib_jonas, jevalbot source is https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot (originally http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz)
13:27:02 <j-bot> wib_jonas, pong: centillama
13:27:12 <int-e> arseniiv: there's also the @lambdabot "trick".
13:27:32 <HackEso> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours.
13:27:43 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
13:28:05 <arseniiv> <int-e> I might be caught lambdabot-handed. => at least it’s better than right-handed or, I don’t want to say that, left-handed
13:29:21 <int-e> arseniiv: Oh, are you being plagued by sinister thoughts?
13:29:41 <int-e> Does fungot know any puns?
13:29:42 <fungot> int-e: i think that's an ( invalid) octal number.
13:30:38 <arseniiv> fungot: may I impersonate you for a while, and if so, how could I achieve that?
13:30:39 <fungot> arseniiv: and they are slow and cost 25 cent in euros, no matter
13:30:55 <wib_jonas> int-e: look through the quotes file, it may have some puns that he committed
13:31:09 <fungot> int-e: to fnord? that's scary stuff!
13:31:10 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy)
13:31:11 <arseniiv> ah! it’s a robbery, I can’t afford those prices
13:31:26 <fungot> arseniiv: dimension error
13:32:17 <int-e> fizzie: ^^ there's a business model for you.
13:32:53 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: this works but I would be caught when writing that in chat
13:33:12 <wib_jonas> wait, do we really have 102 fungot quotes?
13:33:12 <fungot> wib_jonas: you did some design decisions seemed silly to do a program, though. that means i can have some data carried along with it
13:33:18 <arseniiv> I want to do that secretly. Or, should I say, I definitely don’t want that
13:33:55 <int-e> wib_jonas: Well, fungot never sleeps.
13:33:59 <arseniiv> fungot has their own secret business too
13:34:00 <fungot> arseniiv: ah. so nothing i can do: ' fnord' peers.) ( all it's missing after that will immediately be allocated on the pinned heap?
13:34:29 <arseniiv> allocates and deallocates things and doesn’t say anyone where and why
13:34:33 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: I think buubot2 had such functionality, but buubot3 doesn't have it, perhaps because it's so easy to abuse
13:35:34 <arseniiv> I should write a useful bot and get a trust of #esoteric with it and then…
13:37:11 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: you can try running commands in HackEso/j-bot/lambdabot/fungоt that take some time to run, like up to ten seconds or whatever the timeout is, then if there's a lot of other chat, perhaps people will miss your command.
13:37:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 081320Z 28005KT 250V320 9999 FEW070 SCT100 14/06 Q1014 NOSIG
13:37:32 <int-e> . o O ( winter is coming )
13:37:33 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: it's the easiest with HackEso, since on a timeout, it just prints the output so far with no error message
13:37:53 <wib_jonas> `perl -efor(1..999){sleep 1;print("$_ ")}
13:38:12 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: then if there's a lot of other chat, perhaps people will miss your command. => hmmmmn I have doubts
13:38:28 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: HackEso is also pretty programmable, so you can make it give surprising results that seem unconnected to your query
13:38:42 <wib_jonas> `perl -efor(1..999){sleep 1;print("$_ ");flush STDOUT}
13:39:13 <HackEso> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
13:39:19 <fungot> arseniiv: is that not many people have understanding the concept. on fnord, and so
13:40:06 <wib_jonas> lambdabot and j-bot support assignments too, so you can just make any variable or function have an unexpected value, and in j-bot, you can even change values from private message if you know the right incantations, but the drawback is that j-bot and lambdabot always mentions the nick of whoever they reply to
13:40:34 <wib_jonas> and you can give assignments in private message
13:42:06 <wib_jonas> but it's not easy in either j-bot or lambdabot to redefine builtins
13:42:14 <wib_jonas> eg. it's not easy to make them say that 2+2 is 5
13:42:50 <wib_jonas> if you try to redefine (+), you just get a message about how it's ambiguous with Prelude.(+)
13:43:44 <wib_jonas> iirc rust works more sanely, because wildcard imports (like how you import every symbol that Prelude exports) can be shadowed by a symbol that is either local to a package or imported by name
13:49:39 <wib_jonas> > maр (10*) [3,1,4,1,5,9,2] -- arseniiv
13:49:40 <lambdabot> [30,10, Ok, this is getting boring
13:51:27 -!- fungot has quit (Changing host).
13:51:27 -!- fungot has joined.
13:52:17 -!- HackEso has quit (Changing host).
13:52:17 -!- HackEso has joined.
13:53:18 <wib_jonas> there's one way that buubot3 lets you cheat: while it's running the eval command (which evaluates a perl statement) in a sandbox, it's running all of them in the same sandbox, so if more than one buubot command is simultaneously running an eval, than one can kill, or perhaps even ptrace, the other
13:53:32 <wib_jonas> ptrace may be impossible, but I experimented with killing a lot
13:54:40 <wib_jonas> fizzie: no! don't add cloaks. they're usually longer than an ordinary hostname, so the max response length that they can give gets shorter
13:55:02 <wib_jonas> fizzie: or if you do give them cloaks, then make sure to edit the spore or similar commands in HackEso to know about the new max message length
13:58:28 <wib_jonas> ``` perl -e'for$n(0..49){printf"%02d",$n;for$l("A".."Z"){print $l,lc($l)}}' | sport
13:58:29 <HackEso> 1/6:00AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz01AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz02AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz03AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz04AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz05AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz06AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz07AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz08AaBbCcDdE
13:58:31 <HackEso> 2/6:kLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz09AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz10AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz11AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz12AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz13AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz14AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz15AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz16AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPp
13:58:55 <wib_jonas> fizzie: ^ see, sport skipped some letters between 08 and 09 there
13:58:56 <fizzie> wib_jonas: Kind of too late now, didn't think of that. :/
13:59:16 <HackEso> sport <n> divides its input into irc-sized pieces and displays the nth (default first). The pipe version of `1. See also spore.
13:59:17 <HackEso> spore <n> stores its input in tmp/spout and displays the nth line (default first). For a version considering irc line lengths, see sport. See also `spam.
13:59:48 <wib_jonas> fizzie: for lambdabot, it probably matters less, because it has a very short message length on channels, and breaks into multiple lines for private messages
13:59:58 <wib_jonas> but for HackEso this should be changed I think
14:00:17 <wib_jonas> also now it can look at the IRC_* variables to know how long the target is
14:01:05 <wib_jonas> also, this is the sort of thing why I don't trust the HackEso scripts and just use coreutils and perl one-liners when using HackEso
14:01:49 <int-e> lambdabot's fairly conservative about IRC message lengths... I seem to recall 350 characters for privmsg?
14:02:18 <fizzie> HackEso was tuned for throughput, not reliability.
14:02:19 <wib_jonas> it gave up after two list entries above, so that should fit
14:02:34 <fizzie> I'm kind of reluctant to bother them again, after I mentioned the cloaks after the Sigyn whitelisting and they said it would've been nice to have been told about that first.
14:03:06 <wib_jonas> fizzie: sorry, I didn't know that you'd be applying for cloaks
14:03:15 <fizzie> Yeah, I should've mentioned.
14:03:37 <wib_jonas> I never asked cloaks for my bots, because the hostname that they used was shorter than any cloak
14:03:57 <wib_jonas> that said, you could of course try to register the esolangs community and get shorter cloaks eventually after a year....
14:04:01 <fizzie> I don't think it's an issue for fungot, since it's got a conservative max length too. And probably not for esowiki either, because it doesn't matter if it truncates long titles a little more.
14:04:01 <fungot> fizzie: let's try to factor 4 using shor's algorithm. :)... nah, just obfuscating often result in getting a scheme to play with them.)
14:04:17 <fizzie> For HackEso it's a little unfortunate.
14:04:32 <fizzie> I remember we changed the username to ~h to get a few extra characters out.
14:04:48 <wib_jonas> yes. we should golf the channel name too.
14:05:08 <wib_jonas> sadly iirc freenode doesn't allow non-ascii channel names
14:06:08 <wib_jonas> so we can't use the four-byte channel name #ꙮ
14:06:29 <fizzie> Well, I'll look at the length situation when I get home.
14:07:33 <HackEso> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
14:07:53 <int-e> Heh, I guessed correctly.
14:10:52 <wib_jonas> and HackEso's old hostname is pretty short too
14:11:48 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
14:11:50 <wib_jonas> int-e: sure, by breaking messages to more likes, causing more spam
14:12:02 <int-e> Even this quote fits. ;-)
14:16:57 <HackEso> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance,
14:16:59 <HackEso> B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h̽̀âͮn̩̈́g̫ͣe͉͒ ͦ̓y̙͕o̔͒u̷ͬr͂͐ ̓͝l͙͐ȉ͕f̹́ẹ̲ ̤̹F̌ͅÒ
14:17:01 <HackEso> You can trust Zarutian. He fixes, as an electronics technician, banal mistakes of electronics engineers. Rather cy(ph|b)erpunkish in outlook regarding the 'Net. Knows more about ocaps than you can imagine. Possesses an Icelandic unnerver that ejects freezingly hot lava out of its business end. Bears an 'Authentic fakes provider' seal from the guild of Realers. He is also known for making rather long HackEgo wisdom entries. Take for instance th
14:17:08 <wib_jonas> HackEso says that these three are now too long
14:17:09 <esowiki> [[Byter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66561&oldid=66560 * PaniniTheDeveloper * (+0)
14:17:57 <int-e> wib_jonas: request permission to delete that wisdom entry
14:18:06 <int-e> wib_jonas: (the br* one)
14:23:58 <wib_jonas> int-e: I'm not associated with that one
14:24:39 <wib_jonas> int-e: I suggest to also delete wisdom/$'\xCC\x9A\xCC\x82'*
14:24:51 <wib_jonas> but you may want to check the hg history first
14:25:04 <wib_jonas> the longest potentially valuable wisdom is welcome.ru
14:25:11 <HackEso> Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
14:25:57 <wib_jonas> I think with a 16-byte nickname, welcome.ru might just about fit in the output
14:26:25 <wib_jonas> `добро-пожаловать zemhill_________
14:26:26 <HackEso> zemhill_________: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.)
14:26:35 <wib_jonas> `добро-пожаловать 1zemhill_________
14:26:36 <HackEso> 1zemhill_________: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.
14:27:32 <wib_jonas> does this web client enable that obsolete extension that adds a one character prefix to messages telling whether the user is logged in to nickserv?
14:27:49 <wib_jonas> some versions of xchat enables them, and then you get one fewer bytes of space
14:28:51 <fizzie> Maybe. Both the zemhill_________ and 1zemhill_________ ones fit in here.
14:29:04 <fizzie> Oh, no, it didn't, I'm just blind.
14:29:18 <fizzie> The latter cut off the ). So either the web client doesn't, or this client does.
14:29:52 <wib_jonas> the web client cust off the one with 1zemhill*, but that's an overlong nickname
14:29:56 <HackEso> 729) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
14:30:20 <HackEso> 729) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h \
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14:32:10 <HackEso> PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
14:32:13 <HackEso> Nicely formatted classical wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
14:41:46 <fizzie> We recently had the occasion to send some PDF files to an official thing, and turns out they were only able to view some of them. Presumably due to some sort of software incompatibility somewhere.
14:43:20 <fizzie> I couldn't find out any sort of patterns in what worked and what didn't, though. The PDF 1.4 files generated by wkhtmltopdf were fine. The ones that allegedly only showed up as blank were PDF 1.3 and 1.5 files (but why would they support only 1.4 in the middle?), generated by printing from Gimp or with 'pdftk' concatenating from various sources.
14:43:41 <fizzie> All in all, it was a pretty depressing format.
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14:45:59 <wib_jonas> fizzie: perhaps the default options were changed between those versions because people did debug out what doesn't work and reported which features some official things don't support
14:46:17 <wib_jonas> you could probably fix it by changing the options, but you don't know what you have to change the options to
14:46:31 <wib_jonas> fizzie: it wasn't a paper size thing, right?
14:46:48 <fizzie> Not as far as I can tell, they were all A4 according to pdfinfo.
14:46:58 <int-e> It's a Pretty Dubious Format too.
14:48:10 <fizzie> ...well, there are *some* differences in paper size, some are "595.28 x 841.89 pts (A4)" and others "595 x 842 pts (A4)".
14:48:43 <myname> how do you draw .38 pts?
14:49:09 <fizzie> I think my current plan is to print all the non-working ones, and send them the PDFs generated by the printer/scanner/copier machine at work, under the assumption that that's been engineered to work as widely as possible.
14:53:50 <myname> fizzie: you don't support "1.4 in the middle". you support the brand new 1.4 as soon as it comes out, drop support for 1.3 and never update to 1.5 once it shows up
14:55:10 <int-e> Potable Document Format - perfect for drinking games.
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16:18:07 <arseniiv> int-e: one time or another, I think we all guessed that (at least to Adobe) it was a Profitable Document Format
16:25:56 <arseniiv> if one stels i and f from “profitable” (getting “portable”) and adds them to “acrobat”, it will become an obvious/ominous “boar if cat”
16:26:23 <arseniiv> it was Adobe’s plan all along!
16:27:20 <arseniiv> and it certainly is not something good. I don’t know what it is though
16:29:21 <int-e> here's another: potentially dangerous file
16:30:09 <imode> programmable dangerous format.
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17:21:29 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66562&oldid=46377 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) conversion for quine section
17:25:43 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66563&oldid=66562 * Dtuser1337 * (+5) /* Quine */ symbol mode quine
17:25:56 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66564&oldid=66563 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* Quine */ oops
17:26:28 <b_jonas> so apparently HackEso pays 18 bytes more tax to freenode per line than it used to
17:33:38 <esowiki> [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66565&oldid=66564 * Dtuser1337 * (+54) /* Quine */ possible implementation of the helix converted version from the line version.
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17:41:23 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66566&oldid=66240 * Dtuser1337 * (-3) /* commands */
17:44:48 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66567&oldid=66566 * Dtuser1337 * (-104) /* commands */
17:45:08 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66568&oldid=66567 * Dtuser1337 * (-13) /* commands */
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17:57:21 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66569&oldid=66568 * Dtuser1337 * (+132) /* commands */
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18:02:50 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66570&oldid=66569 * Dtuser1337 * (+156) /* commands */
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18:06:54 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66571&oldid=66570 * Dtuser1337 * (+86) /* commands */
18:07:24 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66572&oldid=66571 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* commands */
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18:38:02 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66573&oldid=66572 * Dtuser1337 * (+772) /* commands */
18:38:16 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66574&oldid=66573 * Dtuser1337 * (-2) /* errors */
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18:45:14 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66575&oldid=66574 * Dtuser1337 * (+74) /* errors */
18:48:32 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66576&oldid=66575 * Dtuser1337 * (+65) /* errors */
18:52:04 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66577&oldid=66576 * Dtuser1337 * (+37) /* commands */
19:00:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66578&oldid=66281 * Dtuser1337 * (+80)
19:01:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66579&oldid=66578 * Dtuser1337 * (+130)
19:03:46 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66580&oldid=66577 * Dtuser1337 * (+47) /* Hello world! */
19:06:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: and as for the original moderation problem, shachaf looks pretty reliable and he's often here, so maybe you should give him channel op rights
19:08:58 <b_jonas> I can't think of anyone else that's so often here and looks reliable though
19:09:07 <b_jonas> so in that case we'll have times with no moderators paying attention
19:09:15 <b_jonas> I certainly can't be trusted
19:09:41 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66581&oldid=66580 * Dtuser1337 * (+76) /* errors */
19:10:57 <b_jonas> hmm... maybe FireFly is trustable
19:11:03 <fizzie> I think it was a good idea to exempt esowiki, though; to a machine, the above could look pretty spammy.
19:11:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: certainly when our norwegian village edits the same page twenty times in a row
19:11:55 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66582&oldid=66581 * Dtuser1337 * (+70) /* commands */
19:12:42 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66583&oldid=66582 * Dtuser1337 * (+20) /* examples */
19:12:58 <FireFly> I'm not sure I pay a lot of attention here, but if desired could probably deal with clear abuse when spotted
19:14:19 <b_jonas> by the way, I really hope that Dtuser1337 is not another alias of Areallycoolusername
19:15:40 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66584&oldid=66583 * Dtuser1337 * (+19) /* Roll a dice */
19:17:33 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66585&oldid=66584 * Dtuser1337 * (+41) /* errors */
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19:27:25 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I did the float tank thing
19:27:38 <kmc> it was neat
19:27:54 <b_jonas> FireFly: since I'm so rarely in #jsoftware, you now have chanserv +f privilages, which means you can modify the chanserv access list
19:27:56 <kmc> well, I felt very relaxed
19:28:12 <kmc> and being weightless is great for any kind of physical stress / muscle pain
19:29:20 <kmc> I think I would get more out of it if I was better at mediation
19:29:55 <kmc> they do 15 minutes of soothing hippie nature/flute music followed by 40 minutes of silence, followed by 5 min of hippie music to bring you back
19:30:03 <kmc> but you can also provide your own soundtrack
19:30:09 <kmc> eh I lost track of time
19:30:31 <b_jonas> weightless => yes, I do ordinary swimming, and it is so much better than other forms of sport activities to people like me who aren't particularly sporty or fit
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19:30:57 <kmc> I also found it hard to give a shit about my usual upsetting thought loop subjects, even when I tried deliberately as an experiment
19:31:05 <kmc> which was a concern of mine so that's cool
19:31:19 <kmc> being alone with my thoughts is not always very pleasant
19:31:39 <kmc> anyway it was a cool experience
19:31:44 <Hooloovo0> I find it easy to lose track of time while meditating
19:32:04 <kmc> I bought a book on meditation and will start practicing
19:32:10 <Hooloovo0> not sure how I feel about music, I tend to prefer complete silence I think
19:32:17 <kmc> and maybe go back to the tank in a month
19:32:34 <kmc> (I bought a 3 session package deal at deep discount for new customers)
19:32:44 <b_jonas> ouch. I hate complete silence, but luckily never experience complete silence here in the city.
19:32:48 <b_jonas> no music makes sense though
19:38:51 <Hooloovo0> I have very rarely experienced complete silence
19:39:30 <Hooloovo0> there's always crickets chirping, wind, fans, or any number of other things
19:40:03 <Hooloovo0> certain basements can get pretty close, but there's usually at least mains hum from the transformers
19:42:34 <b_jonas> but do you like it when it's so silent? for hours that is, not just a few minutes
19:50:08 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66586&oldid=66316 * Joshop * (+367) Cthulhu
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