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01:31:25 <ais523_> hmm, you know how a while back we had a conversation here about how "son" and "sun" are spelled differently despite being pronounced the same? apparently this stems from an ambiguity in an old handwriting style, where "u" and "n" looked a lot like || and "m" like |||, so scribes generally changed "un" and "um" to "on" and "om" so that they at least
01:31:26 <ais523_> had a chance of being readable
01:31:51 <ais523_> so both the "son" and "sun" spellings ended up in common use, and ended up being attached to different words
01:32:34 <shachaf> The other day I was reading a poem which rhymed "love" with "prove" and "remove".
01:32:56 <shachaf> I thought the pronunciation of "love" changed, but maybe it's all the other "ove" words that changed instead?
01:34:04 <ais523_> I think in some traditions of poetry it's acceptable to "rhyme" words simply because they look like they should rhyme, regardless of pronounciation
01:34:07 <ais523_> it's known as an "eye rhyme"
01:34:08 <pikhq> And presumably, they only settled on a single spelling much later, and just _picked_ one for each?
01:34:14 <ais523_> not sure if your poem was one of them
01:34:20 <shachaf> I'm kind of skeptical about this specific case.
01:34:34 <shachaf> I've seen it in multiple poems, and this poem didn't have any other cases that looked like that.
01:34:37 <ais523_> pikhq: I wasn't around at the time, I don't know the details
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02:59:14 <oerjan> `icode > maр (10*) [3,1,4
02:59:15 <HackEso> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0440 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ER] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+002C COMMA] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+002C COMMA] [U+0034 DIGIT FOUR]
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03:08:00 <pikhq> I see, I see. Yes, makes perfect sense
03:10:13 <oerjan> <wib_jonas> HackEso says that these three are now too long <-- weren't they always
03:10:44 <HackEso> 1/1:le/rn//le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom> \ civic duty//Civic duty is your duty to keep your Honda in tip-top shape. \ 01//01 is an abbreviation that 01 understands. \ soup//What soup, Doc? \ group//Groups are just loops with the property of associativity.
03:11:04 <shachaf> I feel like the joke in le/rn should be deleted due to being so out of date.
03:11:32 <HackEso> int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän
03:11:32 <shachaf> The "[/]" should probably also be deleted.
03:11:41 * oerjan looks sternly at int-e
03:23:23 <oerjan> <FireFly> I'm not sure I pay a lot of attention here, but if desired could probably deal with clear abuse when spotted <-- you're already an op through the staff cloak btw
03:23:41 <oerjan> assuming we added that correctly
03:25:50 <oerjan> <b_jonas> by the way, I really hope that Dtuser1337 is not another alias of Areallycoolusername <-- i think we established that is not the same person as the bbc village in norway
03:26:32 <oerjan> (don't know a about Dtuser1337, it's ais523_ who knows how to check such things)
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03:26:58 <ais523_> I think it's unlikely enough not to need checking
03:27:15 <ais523_> but yes, ARCUN only has one account
03:27:41 <oerjan> i think e really meant a
03:27:42 <ais523_> I was surprised to learn that the accounts were different, but in retrospect there are noticeable differences between the two people you can spot if you look for them
03:27:52 <ais523_> yes, it's a who has all the accounts
03:28:04 <oerjan> i mean, whether e was Dt*
03:28:25 <oerjan> there sure are a lot of new wiki users
03:28:41 <ais523_> we get new users at a pretty rapid rate
03:28:50 <ais523_> although most disappear after posting one esolang or making one edit
03:29:47 <oerjan> i'm sort of wonder if that discord esolang channel has more users than this channel, i've never used it
03:30:16 <ais523_> there are a surprisingly large number of people who refuse to use Discord on principle, I'm one of them
03:30:30 <ais523_> however I am generally OK with bridging bots that connect IRC and Discord channels together
03:31:06 <oerjan> CGCC had an ad to the wiki but it no longer does, so i'm not sure where they're still coming from :P
03:31:23 <ais523_> perhaps next year we should try to bring that ad back
03:31:45 <int-e> oerjan: Sorry, all the tentacles and other appendices exceeded my pain threshold.
03:31:46 <ais523_> that said, it'd be nice to make the wiki more non-esoprogrammer-friendly before that
03:31:59 <ais523_> (in particular, some way to find which languages were actually good, more content on the relevant pages, etc.)
03:32:11 <ais523_> the issue being that nobody seems to have the spare time and motivation to put in the work
03:32:18 <oerjan> `zalgo i can't imagine what you mean
03:32:19 <HackEso> i̲͊ ̡̣c̖̞aͤ͘n̮̉'̹̥t͕͏ ̺̬i̘͐m̠̈́a̼̫g̼̒i͚̒n͐̂e̡͇ ̠͂w̟̔ẖ͉á̷t̼ͩ ̓̾y̑ͪo̖ͦuͣ̒ ̒͗m͑̀e̩̱a̗̹n̟̘
03:32:57 <oerjan> . o O ( i've found int-e's secret weakness MWAHAHAHA )
03:33:17 <int-e> This is worse than fn*rds.
03:33:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Remember when some unknown set of Unicode characters would mess up my terminal?
03:33:48 <oerjan> fungot: do you know anything about those?
03:33:49 <fungot> oerjan: i was busy because of homeworks and projects and so on
03:36:33 <int-e> `le/rn zalgo//The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN conventions.
03:36:35 <HackEso> Learned 'zalgo': The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN conventions.
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03:38:34 <int-e> `slwd zalgo//s/UN/UN(icode)/
03:38:36 <HackEso> zalgo//The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN(icode) conventions.
03:39:06 <int-e> what was the sed-last command again btw?
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03:43:04 <oerjan> well it was right, anyway
03:43:24 <int-e> wow, a logically named command
03:43:31 <int-e> no wonder I didn't find it
03:44:28 <int-e> (but tbh I was just too lazy to look... it was less mental effort to use `slwd and retype the entry name)
03:45:01 <int-e> "effort" is a bit of a joke here.
03:53:01 <HackEso> 601) <Vorpal> elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then?
03:53:40 <oerjan> i guess no one bothered to add more
03:53:59 <HackEso> angband:Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor. \ kanada:Your bankers' vain plazas never nurtured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all co
04:04:37 <shachaf> Do you like conflict-driven clause learning?
04:05:18 <int-e> shachaf: See the logs.
04:07:49 <shachaf> Is picking out the next variable to branch on one of the trickiest things in SAT solvers?
04:08:03 <shachaf> Or is a rough heuristic about as good as a complicated one?
04:13:28 <int-e> It's all heuristics. Selecting variables to branch on, when to restart, when to forget learned clauses, which clauses to learn in the first place, splitting clauses into hot and cold clauses of some sort for better locality...
04:13:45 <int-e> Using lookahead for early branches, blah blah.
04:16:05 <int-e> Oh, polarity of variables is in there as well (when you branch, do you try false or true first?)
04:16:15 <pikhq> It is kinda weird now seeing the nick "elliott" in quotes.
04:17:31 <HackEso> 11) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 12) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 25) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 82) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore u
04:18:45 <int-e> is fungebob a precursor of fungot?
04:19:15 <pikhq> Nah, I think fungot had a different nick briefly.
04:19:15 <fungot> pikhq: i almost got a bf interpreter. i'm not into guis at all."
04:20:25 <HackEso> 25) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
04:21:20 <fungot> Hooloovo0: no no no no no. well ok, perhaps that ruined my experience :) just saying that
04:21:21 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course
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06:52:02 <b_jonas> ais523, pikhq, shachaf: see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-09-29.2161.html on "love" and "prove"; http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2019-08-29.2618.html on "sun" and "son" which started this conv'n
06:54:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but Areallycoolusername has at least one alias
06:55:01 <b_jonas> ARCUN only has one account? ok
06:57:20 <int-e> nah there is a second account, https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Jussef_Swissen
06:57:43 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> ... i'm not sure where they're still coming from" => one user came to the channel and said he came from bfjoust
06:58:02 <shachaf> b_jonas: Hmm, the first page is in French.
06:58:32 <b_jonas> "<ais523_> (in particular, some way to find which languages were actually good, more content on the relevant pages, etc.)" => yeah, that would take work
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07:00:00 <b_jonas> I prefer to spend my time writing a little documentation about languages that I find out about from outside the wiki
07:01:20 <b_jonas> to be snarky, I could say that we have about 1500 languages on the language list, of which over 200 are languages by A, plus we have like 200 joke languages, so we might start to think of a button that goes to a random non-joke non-A language
07:02:12 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> oerjan: Remember when some unknown set of Unicode characters would mess up my terminal?" => hmm, were you the one who catted irc straight into a terminal and complained when anyone typed a control-N?
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07:03:58 <int-e> b_jonas: ouch how close is that 200 to reality? (Re: A)
07:05:37 <b_jonas> int-e: it's definitely over 200. I started counting to be able to definitely say that he has comfortably more languages than ais523 now and if his motivation was to be the creator with the most esolangs then he can stop now, and yes, I could say that
07:05:39 <ais523_> b_jonas: add BF derivatives in too
07:05:52 <int-e> b_jonas: that is scary.
07:06:12 <ais523_> there's no real problem with creating 200 languages, the problem is with having 200 language ideas and not really fleshing out any of them
07:06:12 <b_jonas> int-e: User:A used to have a list
07:06:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, they're already listed on the joke page
07:06:36 <b_jonas> though there are a few interesting bf derivatives of course
07:06:58 <ais523_> there are a surprising number of interesting BF derivatives, just /even more/ uninteresting BF derivatives
07:07:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm trying to ignore the problem. You may recall me talking about suppressing A-related esowiki messages.
07:07:25 <ais523_> in general, if you have a new idea for a command to add to an imperative language, BF makes a familiar base from which to start, and the resulting language probably won't be terrible
07:07:59 <b_jonas> I've even seen at least one brainfuck derivative that makes sense to have been created as a bf derivative, as opposed to just being a cool idea that should have been turned to an esolang unrelated to bf
07:08:19 <ais523_> int-e: it's important to have all the edits here so that they can be reviewed, I normally rely on the #esoteric logs to work out what admin actions I need to take (although I do check Special:RecentChanges from time to time too)
07:08:49 <int-e> ais523_: I wasn't suggesting to suppress them in general.
07:08:58 <ais523_> b_jonas: SMBF, Permanent Brainfuck, DoFuck probably all fall into that category (oddly, I don't think DoFuck's on the wiki)
07:09:10 <b_jonas> DoFuck is on the wiki under another name iirc
07:09:36 <b_jonas> I'm not convinced that SMBF is even usable
07:10:01 <b_jonas> is permanent brainfuck the one where you can only change cells from 0 to 1? there's no article
07:10:03 <int-e> ais523_: What I meant is that I, personally, have a specially crafted /ignore for that purpose.
07:10:08 <ais523_> in practice, it's mostly used as an efficient way to initialise the tape
07:10:24 <ais523_> yes, permanent BF is 0→1 only (or sometimes, + only with bignums)
07:10:49 <ais523_> there is an article but it's on a page whose intent was to centralise all the computationally interesting BF derivatives, then it didn't really get used
07:11:10 <ais523_> int-e: that's entirely reasonable, in fact I probably would have suggested it if you hadn't done it already
07:12:03 <ais523_> idea: merge all the BF equivalents into a single article
07:12:06 <b_jonas> there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger which I think is computationally interesting
07:12:31 <b_jonas> ais523: there's already one that merges some of them
07:13:13 <oerjan> <b_jonas> "<oerjan> ... i'm not sure where they're still coming from" => one user came to the channel and said he came from bfjoust <-- i'm not asking about the channel but about the wiki, which is presumably where they found bfjoust first
07:13:30 <b_jonas> maybe it was on a talk page?
07:13:38 <ais523_> there was a BF Joust competition on CGCC
07:13:57 <ais523_> (they got the idea from us but ran mostly independently; however, Lymia won it)
07:15:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's a new user Msully4321 who came to do one constructive edit, and he says so on Introduce yourself, which is often a good motivation why people register on wikis, but they don't say how they found the wiki
07:15:51 <b_jonas> I think at least one user said that they came from the esolang discord
07:16:33 <b_jonas> do we know where kspalaiologos came from?
07:16:40 <b_jonas> the real one, not the name-taking spammer
07:17:06 <b_jonas> and one user, kmc, came from the ancient past of #esoteric by a time machine or something
07:17:59 <ais523_> I came from http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/ (linked to me by email) via Malbolge and INTERCAL
07:18:45 <b_jonas> I don't remember where I came from, possibilities are other freenode channels and via Intercal or unlambda or Piet/Chef.
07:19:07 <ais523_> didn't you follow me from #nethack4?
07:19:49 <oerjan> i think i saw b_jonas on the iwc forum before he came here
07:20:13 <oerjan> i don't remember exactly how i came here but i was on the old esolang mailing list way back
07:20:19 <b_jonas> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code occasionally has code in esoteric languages. should we try to advertise there, from like the pages of esolangs?
07:20:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's possible, but I don't see how the iwc forum would direct here other than by Piet/Chef
07:21:04 <b_jonas> and I don't think Piet/Chef is discussed on the forum at all other than in one doc bug report that I posted a few months ago
07:21:54 <b_jonas> I also wrote obfuscated code in perl (and usually rather stupid ones, there's quite a few that I'm ashamed of, but there's a learning curve) so maybe someone directed me here from that
07:22:25 <Lymia> I don't even remember how I got here.
07:22:32 <b_jonas> perlmonks.com is the first website on the web where I was an active contributor
07:22:36 <b_jonas> but it was shortly followed by irc
07:22:39 <ais523_> wow, I just discovered a 49333400 byte Makefile on my computer
07:22:57 <int-e> Haha. Somebody put "(Not clickbait)" into a youtube video title...
07:23:01 <ais523_> it looks like some sort of benchmark for make implementations, luckily, rather than being intended to actually generate a useful output
07:23:27 <ais523_> based on the target names, I assume I wrote the script that generated it
07:23:40 <int-e> (A video that doesn't interest me but that according to youtube is "trending" whatever that means)
07:24:12 <ais523_> "trending" on websites normally means that more people than predicted are visiting it, e.g. the number of views is high and increasing
07:24:16 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that occurs in titles often
07:24:25 <ais523_> (rather than being constantly popular, or just new)
07:24:36 <int-e> b_jonas: I bet I'll see it more often now that I'm on to this... uhm... trend.
07:25:34 <ais523_> I wonder what proportion of those are actually clickbait
07:26:21 <b_jonas> that may depend on your definition
07:27:14 <ais523_> I guess the definition of clickbait is "something which, based on the description of a link, causes someone to click the mouse more times than they would if they were correctly informed"
07:27:26 <int-e> oerjan: that sounds made up, needs more precision
07:27:29 <ais523_> normally implying that you follow the link out of curiosity then dislike what's on the other end of it
07:27:40 <int-e> oerjan: 97.3211421%, now we're talking.
07:28:14 <ais523_> those things look a lot more convincing if they look like they were rounded from an actual fraction
07:28:44 <int-e> ais523_: I know. It was part of the joke.
07:28:58 <b_jonas> ais523: right, and if that definition was correct then you should report every clickbait on youtube as having a misleading title or misleading thumbnail
07:29:11 <ais523_> I don't have a YouTube account, so it doesn't let me report things
07:29:22 <ais523_> otherwise, it seems like the sort of thing I would do :-D
07:29:41 <oerjan> ais523_: i'm not sure most people know that pattern (i only guessed)
07:29:54 <ais523_> oerjan: I think more people recognise it than know it
07:30:01 <ais523_> most people have seen it before even if they don't know what causes it
07:30:21 <b_jonas> once each I have tried to report things on youtube or on ebay, but I found that even though the entry was clearly something that shouldn't be there, under the report menu there's no choice to report that particular offense among the report reasons
07:30:24 <ais523_> so it gives that feeling of familiarity that makes it more convincing, even if the viewer doesn't know why
07:30:31 <b_jonas> so after that I basically gave up
07:30:37 <b_jonas> I don't recally what it was for youtube,
07:31:36 <b_jonas> but for ebay it was entries where they bunch a really cheap item together with a normal item into the same entry with those select boxes that you normally use to select sizes or colors, the title and first photo describes only the normal item, but the price displayed on the search list describes the very cheap item
07:32:14 <b_jonas> they bunch large capacity fast sd cards with cheap sd card readers this way, but I've seen other similar combinations too
07:32:14 <ais523_> hmm, that could in theory be legitimate if the range of sizes were large enough
07:32:26 <b_jonas> ais523_: no, because the title is misleading
07:32:41 <ais523_> USB sticks ranging from 256 MB to 256 GB, for example
07:32:48 <b_jonas> it's not like "SD card 1 MB 1 GB 2 GB 4 GB 8 GB 16 GB", those are fine
07:33:07 <b_jonas> it's "SD card 8 GB 16 GB" (with other qualifiers) and then one of the sizes is "card reader only"
07:33:10 <ais523_> 256 MB USB sticks are probably close to worthless nowadays
07:33:34 <b_jonas> we use such small sized SD cards for small computers or embedded devices
07:33:42 <b_jonas> where they don't have a built-in flash memory
07:33:45 <myname> i just realized that trending youtube items seem to be highly regional. i don't like that
07:33:45 <ais523_> hmm, I guess there must be a price floor for storage
07:33:48 <b_jonas> but we have to store a small program or data on it
07:34:06 <ais523_> often you don't need much storage to, e.g., just transport single files around
07:34:17 <ais523_> b_jonas: that's nearly always microSD rather than USB, though
07:34:32 <b_jonas> yes, there is a floor, but it's below 1 GB for _slow_ sd cards
07:34:52 <b_jonas> yes, for USB it's less common these days
07:35:00 <b_jonas> everything has micro-sd card readers built in
07:35:29 <b_jonas> also, it's a bit odd, micro-sd cards with an sd adapter are cheaper than sd cards of the same parameter
07:35:37 <ais523_> laptops normally have readers for full-size SD cards but nothing smaller, you need the adapter
07:35:45 <b_jonas> yes, and adapters are cheap
07:36:00 <b_jonas> I've got a lot of them because they give them for practically free with micro-sd cards
07:36:30 <b_jonas> I also have sd + micro sd combo readers with usb port, but I did have to buy them
07:36:45 <ais523_> how do SD cards compete with USB sticks for storage size nowadays?
07:37:08 <ais523_> is the only real difference the connection they use, or are microSD cards noticeably different in how they operate?
07:38:11 <b_jonas> I think sd/micro sd cards are usually better, and I prefer them. usb sticks can be better when they're very large capacity, or if you want to keep it on a keychain so you don't lose it
07:38:37 <ais523_> I'm doing a backup onto a USB stick right now
07:38:44 <b_jonas> I don't notice them being different in how they operate, but maybe I don't use them enough
07:38:59 <ais523_> for backup media, it's best for it to not be too physically small because that makes it easier to lose
07:40:25 <ais523_> USB sticks probably also have the advantage when it comes to desktop computers
07:40:43 <ais523_> because those often don't have a microSD port (sometimes they have one, sometimes not)
07:42:59 <b_jonas> I wanted to say that I'm genrally good at not losing things, but I'm still looking for the red eyeglasses case that I had with me on my vacation
07:58:27 <b_jonas> I'd like to know if Xykon is still using Dorukan's Cloister spell at his current camp in the north
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09:12:14 <lambdabot> EGSC 090850Z 24012KT 200V260 CAVOK 11/08 Q1003
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09:23:15 <lambdabot> ESSB 090850Z 10007KT 9999 -DZ BKN016 08/06 Q0999
09:26:12 <Taneb> I was mostly curious whether EGSN had meta data, it's a tiiiiny airport
09:28:54 <int-e> longitutde: -0.0425... looks fake :)
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09:30:13 <lambdabot> EGBB 090920Z 24009KT 210V270 9999 FEW017 11/08 Q1003
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09:36:07 <wib_jonas> wait... the world's tallest living trees are in the US? what the heck are tropical rainforests for then?
09:37:22 <int-e> Also quick, relentless growth.
09:38:53 <int-e> wow. "Recent reports indicate that trees can survive to be 1000 years old in the Amazonian rain forest." (However, there is very little information on how common these ancient trees are.)
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14:02:57 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66587&oldid=64478 * Dtuser1337 * (-183) <pre>ified, i had a hard time doing these.
14:04:27 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66588&oldid=66587 * Dtuser1337 * (+40) Adding some category.
14:07:11 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66589&oldid=66588 * Dtuser1337 * (+26) MOAR Categories
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14:08:18 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66590&oldid=66589 * Dtuser1337 * (+38) Probably object oriented
14:18:07 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66591&oldid=66585 * Dtuser1337 * (+29) /* errors */
14:27:06 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66592&oldid=66591 * Dtuser1337 * (+28) /* commands */
14:29:45 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66593&oldid=66592 * Dtuser1337 * (+46) /* errors */
14:34:06 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66594&oldid=66593 * Dtuser1337 * (+31) /* errors */
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22:06:57 <b_jonas> found the red glasses case. ok, now I can claim that I'm usually good at not losing my things
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