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01:31:35 <HackEso> 1/2:1168) * Sgeo remembers when he believed VRML could never have gravity. Now VRML is dead. <Sgeo> (And has gravity) \ 271) <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now. \ 1038) <+kmc> we are amused <+kmc> the royal +v \ 123) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). \ 208) <Phantom_Hoover> This is good if you are a wheat plant but bad if you like eating wheat seeds
01:31:54 <moony_> I took a peek at Seclusion.
01:32:02 <moony_> Now one of my favorite esolangs
01:33:56 <moony_> Suprisingly compact for a turing tarpit
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01:37:27 <int-e> How does aloofness gel with quotes...
01:38:15 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
01:39:04 <int-e> let's nuke all the nickname wisdom entries and start from scratch.
01:39:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67011&oldid=64350 * Moon * (+41) Was there ever a time where this contained useful content?
01:40:43 <shachaf> How does two watched literals work with backtracking?
01:41:38 <shachaf> The thing I imagine doing for 2WL is: You have a queue of literals that are forced to true. When you do unit propagation, you find new literals that are in unit clauses, and push them onto your queue.
01:42:04 <shachaf> But when you backtrack, do you just discard part of your queue depending on the backtrack level? I don't think that's what people do.
01:42:31 <int-e> I don't see a queue.
01:42:55 <shachaf> You think you just set the literals to true directly?
01:43:14 <shachaf> I feel like you must have a queue or a stack or something.
01:43:26 <moony_> Also, i've been considering setting up my own mediawiki wiki for general CS
01:43:44 <moony_> (Damn you enter key I wasn't done)
01:44:04 <int-e> shachaf: The trail is a stack to me. But it's not immediately connected to the watched literals.
01:44:15 <shachaf> The trail is just the regular stack, that's not what I mean.
01:44:32 <int-e> I see no queues in 2WL at all.
01:45:13 <shachaf> Say you're in some state where you have the clauses (x | y) & (x | z)
01:45:45 <shachaf> You end up with ¬x. Now you have to infer y and z. Right?
01:45:57 <int-e> Oh, that's where the queue is.
01:46:04 <shachaf> Then you need to find all the clauses that have ¬y and ¬z as their watched literals.
01:46:09 <int-e> Yeah, fair enough.
01:47:11 <int-e> And yes, I expect you discard the queue when you find a conflict. You don't touch the 2WL lists either; you have to ensure that every (non-unit) clause is on two lists as you process the literals.
01:47:28 <Sgeo__> I was wrong, VRML is not dead: http://create3000.de/x_ite/getting-started/
01:47:40 <shachaf> I know you don't need to undo 2WL when you backtrack, which is a neat trick.
01:47:47 <shachaf> But do you just discard the entire queue?
01:48:08 <int-e> you've found a conflict... you don't need more
01:49:54 <shachaf> Let me see. Say you have the clause (¬y | x)...
01:50:06 <int-e> (I expect you could keep going in hope of finding a nicer conflict clause? But the moment you find a conflict you violate the 2WL invariant that watched literals are not on the trail...)
01:50:24 <shachaf> You can just scrap the whole queue because this was all the propagation step, and the conflict was implied by the initial choice of ¬x.
01:50:48 <shachaf> There are no decisions made while the queue is nonempty, of course.
01:51:42 <int-e> (Which probably doesn't matter, but you probably need to be careful not to put a literal and its complement on the trail, at which point conflicts become very much meaningless. It seems messy.)
01:52:17 <int-e> You'll still want to keep the processed literals for conflict analysis.
01:52:36 <shachaf> I started implementing this queue as some kind of circular buffer thing but then I saw what minisat does:
01:52:47 <shachaf> They just store the queue on the trail itself, right after all the literals in the trail.
01:53:07 <shachaf> Then they just adjust the trail end index forward as they pop things off the queue onto the trail.
01:53:37 <int-e> Sgeo__: I'm afraid that things don't die anymore... they go out of fashion but linger on. People will just build compatibility layers like the one you linked to.
01:54:28 <int-e> shachaf: Of course that is where you put the queue... which is why I didn't see it at first.
01:54:46 <shachaf> Right, it's really just the unprocessed part of the trail.
01:54:53 <Sgeo__> Technically it's not implementing the VRML spec faithfully. There's also an X3D spec that's a next version VRML, that's still being worked on.
01:55:01 <shachaf> But I didn't think of it that way at first!
01:55:08 <Sgeo__> https://github.com/create3000/x_ite/issues/50
01:56:17 <int-e> Sgeo__: you seem to care a lot about VRML
01:56:46 <Sgeo__> I spent some of my childhood in Cybertown, which used VRML, and before then I read a book about VRML
01:59:36 <HackEso> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
01:59:44 <HackEso> A matrix is just a matrix. People use them to communicate. Taneb invented them.
02:02:58 <shachaf> So the better way to think of this is that some suffix of the trail is "unpropagated" and still needs to be processed.
02:05:18 <HackEso> Solidity is an esolang for writing contracts. It has good support for secure linear algebra.
02:06:07 <shachaf> Man, one time I was trying to come up with a clever pun about finance and linear algebra relating to how liquidity behaves nonlinearly.
02:09:01 <oerjan> today on schlock mercenary: heavy punning
02:09:48 <HackEso> 1/1:bf//See: brainfuck \ portugoose//Peça ganso assado com natas. \ europe//Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo. \ dereduntantation//Dereduntantation is the process of making things less redundant. It is typically done with either regexes or regular expressions. \ theory//To be theory is to be like a theorem, but inferior.
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03:37:00 <int-e> Is the solidity entry in any way connected to the matrix of solidity?
03:37:50 <int-e> @tell oerjan <oerjan> today on schlock mercenary: heavy punning <-- I feel that "Hurtz" would make an excellent unit for punnery.
03:38:50 <int-e> shachaf: Is it? I mean I'll admit that it is highly suggestive. But that doesn't prove a thing.
03:39:03 <HackEso> 239) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
03:40:37 <int-e> Using multiplication by zero and other forms of cancellation for information hiding.
03:42:22 <shachaf> Information deletion is a really good method of information hiding.
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03:43:48 <int-e> lattice-based crypto is the other angle I thought of but it doesn't readily connect to finance
03:44:52 <shachaf> crypto stands for cryptocurrency so obviously it's always connected to finance hth
03:45:30 <int-e> shachaf: you should take that message to ##crypto ... it's a good test for whether the ops are around.
03:45:56 <int-e> I found this ridiculous article earlier... https://cointelegraph.com/news/bobby-lee-500k-bitcoin-price-flippening-of-gold-will-come-by-2028
03:46:19 <shachaf> speaking of crypto, got any hot ICO tips for me
03:47:32 <int-e> Not really. I'm a casual observer at best.
03:47:47 <shachaf> p. sure my coins are going to the moon
03:47:59 <HackEso> thisheacoin cacecoin millecoin olythcoin bloopcoin isabcoin concoin paviacoin ctnrmcoin vassiblecoin yatmoscoin arrorcoin tlwnncoin pogocoin cutakaelikencompcoin caivcoin explatcoin ezacoin osmetacoin purehcoin
03:48:06 <int-e> YOLO is the only ground truth in all of crypto.
03:48:23 <shachaf> I'm investing in bloopcoin!
03:48:28 <int-e> HODL is how you become a mule in the ongoing money laundering scheme.
03:48:59 <int-e> https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/10/28/tether-and-bitfinex/ was fascinating to read
03:49:20 <shachaf> money laundering? now you're talking cryptography
03:49:31 <shachaf> ("cryptography" also stands for cryptocurrency hth)
03:50:02 <int-e> You already know how to troll me, and that wasn't it.
03:50:54 <HackEso> fizzie:fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg \ indonesia:Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
03:51:31 <int-e> That's a twolerable number.
03:51:37 <shachaf> I think it's clear enough this is intended in good fun and not to cause any actual irritation?
03:51:41 <shachaf> If it did then I should stop.
03:52:56 <int-e> Hmm. I don't know. Maybe I've seen a few too many "crypto" discussions on ##crypto to find it genuinely funny.
03:56:25 <shachaf> My impression is that you also think most regular finance is sort of a scam, though.
03:57:26 <int-e> Sorta. But it's regulated... and intertwined with basically everything. So it's far more predictable.
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04:03:23 <int-e> BTC is cute and small in comparison. Oh and I can lightly treat it as a joke because I'm not invested in it. You can identify the role and interests of individuals. Bobby Lee, for example, is co-founder and CEO of BTCC, a chinese bitcoin exchange. So predicting a bright future for BTC is in his interest.
04:09:19 <int-e> Say, are the YAFGC "related comics" just a randomly generated list of previous episodes...
04:09:39 <int-e> ...I noticed, for the first time, that the list changes when you reload the same page.
04:10:18 <int-e> (I did notice before that they are usually not very related to the current strip.)
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05:46:13 <HackEso> doublecoin colacoin quecoin neccoin optealphilcoin goto++coin longsertcoin pofecoin l00tcoin puesspaghcoin galliiecoin ycoin athcoin sitioncoin concoin subjeccoin cutercoin dzicoin hactropolymoncoin whis=thacoin
05:47:29 <int-e> Oh right. That's the ICO list shachaf wanted.
05:49:02 <fungot> int-e: these unique items make us invincible! dance!! for ayla eat? oh...i feel faint. just as you touch, so throw away. thankful for that? for my, daughter! just like crono!
05:49:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
05:49:22 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
05:49:33 <fungot> int-e: so some kind of byte code, i might even prefer it fast, you know
05:50:38 <kingoffrance> im curious about the enron dialect, from the released audio :)
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06:12:48 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67012&oldid=66147 * YamTokTpaFa * (+9) /* External Resources */ fixed categorization
06:15:38 <esowiki> [[ASCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67013&oldid=65107 * YamTokTpaFa * (+35) Added link to WP article
06:18:10 <esowiki> [[Nuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67014&oldid=65948 * YamTokTpaFa * (-15) name fixed
06:48:03 <esowiki> [[L33t]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67015&oldid=63848 * YamTokTpaFa * (+31)
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08:42:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: anyway, I didn't mean that you should update Sárvik, that was just a sidetrack. I mean https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-01-29.html#l7j and the channel has acquired new active regulars
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12:20:13 <myname> oh nice, i didn't know fungot has an oots style
12:20:13 <fungot> myname: pattern match on it with someone else for a second
12:23:11 <fizzie> fungot: Come on, don't be so rude.
12:23:11 <fungot> fizzie: in perl you'd write "" instead of " ( display...
12:45:35 <fungot> int-e: i forgot to get rid of some cells exhibit. glad to be of any significance is in maine.
12:57:39 <fizzie> fungot: Try to come up with one of those weirdly relevant replies every once in a while, will you?
12:57:39 <fungot> fizzie: you can store and retrieve the strings in the array :) you mean to brainfuck or befunge rot13? you would need to be made
12:57:50 <fizzie> I don't think that counts.
13:07:50 <int-e> fungot doesn't do requests
13:07:50 <fungot> int-e: that may have been a giveaway... busy. all that is involved with yasos is individual objects there's no concept of hygiene
13:08:51 <int-e> Not relevant but pretty coherent.
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13:16:18 <wib_jonas> "<fizzie> Try to come up with one of those weirdly relevant replies" => he did: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-11-07.html#l1d
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15:58:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
16:01:13 <arseniiv> for me, “to brainfuck or befunge rot13” is a find
16:01:37 <arseniiv> fungot, how old your irc base again?
16:01:37 <fungot> arseniiv: did i just read
16:02:06 <arseniiv> fungot: yeah, you did, but you wrote too little
16:02:06 <fungot> arseniiv: why ehird in particular? there must be. how do you have a bottle of liquid plumber
16:03:08 <arseniiv> fungot: please inspire me at least
16:03:08 <fungot> arseniiv: i never hold grudges against people whom i refer to them later. this is a test").
16:03:27 <arseniiv> this doesn’t help at all, though it consoles a bit
16:04:52 <kingoffrance> liquid plumber i guess is a specific flavor of soylent green
16:05:57 <fizzie> I think the years are included in the style description.
16:05:59 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
16:06:12 <fizzie> It's pretty old, though.
16:06:42 <arseniiv> fungot: what do you know about the Restaurant?
16:06:42 <fungot> arseniiv: stop it, i suppose that would work with scheme48 on windows? fnord, when audio driver problems will probably be
16:07:20 <arseniiv> fungot: but I don’t want to stop, I’ve only just begun!
16:07:58 <arseniiv> fungot: sorry, did I break you accidentally?
16:09:21 <imode> oh no, did fungot break?
16:09:21 <fungot> imode: tracing it by hand for safety?" yes... yes they can.... at last
16:09:42 <arseniiv> strange. Dear fungot, did you accidentally ban me?
16:09:42 <fungot> arseniiv: i was writing replace for a fnord bus on empty roads, even fnord plays in the eu
16:09:49 <imode> rate limiting, maybe.
16:10:42 <arseniiv> imode: are they that sophisticated? I’ll never stop wondering
16:11:25 <arseniiv> fungot: that being dealt with, would you at last give me a piece of advice?
16:11:26 <fungot> arseniiv: i think i like pbrain and brainfork, there should be exactly be impressing me all the screen for an hour.
16:12:19 <arseniiv> don’t think that’s a good advice at all
16:12:47 <arseniiv> you mean, that was simply an ad?
16:13:12 <int-e> arseniiv: it was a piece of advice
16:13:45 <int-e> or more accurately a piece of "advice".
16:14:50 <arseniiv> fungot: what’s your opinion o quoting styles?
16:14:50 <fungot> arseniiv: http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ steerpike' reminds me of the illusion
16:15:12 <arseniiv> so you don’t have an opinion yourselves
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16:27:49 <fizzie> Yes, there's a "at most N consecutive replies to the same nickname in a row" limit, with N somewhere around 3 to 4.
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16:56:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ashtons * New user account
16:56:29 <int-e> Fun. _mm_sll_epi16, _mm_sll_epi32 and _mm_sll_epi64 shift in bit units. _mm_slli_si128 shifts in byte units (there's an alias _mm_bslli_si128). _mm_slli_epi8 does not exist.
16:56:50 <int-e> who comes up with these instruction sets...
16:58:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67016&oldid=66918 * Ashtons * (+225) added my intro
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17:11:37 <int-e> (These came up while optimizing http://paste.debian.net/1115796/ ... which I have no use for at all.)
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18:57:46 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, the ones that shift in bit units shift only within words (that are 16, 32, or 64 bit wide); the ones that shift in byte units shift the entire 128-bit register; the latter is mostly obsolete because we just use full permute instructions now, either way is just as slow; the former are also partly obsolete as we now have variable shift instructions that shift each word by a different amount as
18:57:52 <b_jonas> given by the words of another register
18:58:17 <b_jonas> there certainly are some overlap in the usage of these, but they are different enough instructions
18:58:24 <b_jonas> that they're all called "shift" is a pity
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19:20:59 <esowiki> [[Nine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67017 * CMinusMinus * (+1155) Created page with "'''Nine''' ('''N'''ext L'''ine''') is an esoteric programming language, created by [[User:CMinusMinus]]. ==Instructions== {| class="wikitable sortable" |- ! Instruction !! Act..."
19:24:11 <esowiki> [[Nine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67018&oldid=67017 * CMinusMinus * (+141)
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19:25:56 <esowiki> [[Nine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67019&oldid=67018 * CMinusMinus * (+17)
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19:30:49 <arseniiv> hey hey suppose we have a finite digraph (possibly with self-loops) and we start with I[0] the set of all sink vertices, then each time we set I[n+1] := I[n] ∪ (all vertices with outcoming edges only to vertices of I[n]). When I[n] settles (the graph is finite), what do we get? I suspect this set has a nice name
19:33:04 <arseniiv> (though as I[n] ⊂ I[n+1], we can take even an infinite graph and just take a limit of I afterwards, maybe of an ordinal-valued sequence)
19:34:09 <arseniiv> (I swear I didn’t name I after “induction”)
19:38:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think you get anything particularly interesting or nice
19:39:40 <arseniiv> this occurs when I try to decide if an algebraic type is inhabited; the vertices are types and t → u when a value of u is absolutely needed to construct a value of t
19:39:43 <b_jonas> arseniiv: there's a decomposition theorem for digraphs, where the digraph is made of strongly connected components aka strong components, any two node in the same strong component are reachable from each other both ways, and no two strong component is reachable from each other both ways,
19:39:55 <b_jonas> so if you contract the strong component, you get a digraph without a loop
19:40:37 <b_jonas> in your case, you start from sink vertices, which are exactly the sink strong components that have only one node, and then take all nodes (or all strong components) reachable from those backwards
19:40:48 <b_jonas> hmm wait, that's not what you said
19:41:11 <b_jonas> "I[n+1] := I[n] ∪ (all vertices with outcoming edges only to vertices of I[n])"
19:41:34 <arseniiv> for a vertex v to be added, we need that for all v → w, w be in I[n]
19:42:35 <b_jonas> the set of nodes you get in the end won't even have directed loops among them
19:43:20 <arseniiv> (my hypothesis that lim I consists precisely of all inhabited types, for the semantics given above)
19:45:15 <arseniiv> at least it should be a necessary condition?
19:45:24 <b_jonas> arseniiv: consider data R where { {- uninhabited -} }; data S where { {- uninhabited -} }; data A = P R | Q S;
19:45:38 <b_jonas> neither R nor S is absolutely needed to construct A, and yet A is uninhabited
19:45:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, now I remember, thanks!
19:46:13 <arseniiv> now I think maybe I need to work constructor-wise
19:48:06 <arseniiv> I’ll write if I succeed on this way
19:55:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: how many type system extensions do you have? is this still plain algebraic types, or do you have type parameters or even more?
19:55:55 <arseniiv> b_jonas: plain ones, no parameters
19:56:09 <b_jonas> I believe if you have just plain algebraic types, then you can find out precisely which types are inhabited
19:56:33 <b_jonas> if you add enough type system extensions, eventually your compile time becomes Turing-complete, and then or before, you can only prove some of your uninhabited types uninhabited
19:56:49 <b_jonas> that's still useful for optimizations, and it's not usually a problem that you can't prove an uninhabited type uninhabited, mind you
19:57:00 <b_jonas> so it's still worth to have basic checks for that in a compiler
19:57:16 <arseniiv> you may even remember when I talked to myself here about proving generalized Minsky machines TC for exactly those type definitions which give us infinitely many values
19:58:15 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah, I agree with what you said too
19:58:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that sounds plausible, because those types can simulate natural numbers, and counter machines with enough registers are turing-complete,
19:58:46 <b_jonas> whereas if you only have types that have finitely many values, then your state space is finite
19:59:18 <arseniiv> now I have sat and written a proof that indeed infinitude of values is equivalent to TCness, but now I want an icing on a cake showing how to decide if there are infinite values syntactically
19:59:42 <b_jonas> high chance of rain tomorrow, says the weather prediction. ok.
19:59:48 <arseniiv> yeah, precisely what I written out
20:00:12 <b_jonas> decide if there are infinitely many values? yes, that's probably also possible
20:00:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: have your climate snow or rain usual at this time of the year?
20:01:12 <b_jonas> it's sort of like deciding if a regular language is finite given an NFA
20:01:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think that limiting I set is the answer, even, but I haven’t yet continued with proving it in peace so I don’t yet know for sure
20:01:31 <b_jonas> but two weeks ago was too dry
20:01:46 <b_jonas> last week was better, I glad we got the rain finally
20:02:08 <b_jonas> and in the evening too, when I'm on the street, which is always funnier
20:02:50 <b_jonas> I used to say that I take pleasure in the uncomfortableness that other people experience in the heavy rain, but I decided I shouldn't phrase it like that,
20:03:02 <b_jonas> and instead say that I'm happy that I'm lucky enough that the rain doesn't hurt me
20:03:26 <arseniiv> and here is a rain-snow threshold, zeroes by night or by day depending on fortune
20:03:40 <b_jonas> nah, it's too warm for that yet
20:03:43 <arseniiv> I do quite like being a bit under a warm rain, that is in the summer maybe
20:04:06 <arseniiv> though I don’t like drying things afterwards so I’m almost not doing that
20:04:33 <b_jonas> sure, warm rain is even better, because the air here in Europe is dry enough that everything dries quickly
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21:11:25 <esowiki> [[Nuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67020&oldid=67014 * YamTokTpaFa * (+12)
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21:18:22 <esowiki> [[RETURN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67021&oldid=65571 * YamTokTpaFa * (+49)
21:19:49 <esowiki> [[DeathScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67022&oldid=44912 * YamTokTpaFa * (+49)
21:25:03 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67023&oldid=65154 * YamTokTpaFa * (+243)
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22:13:32 <arseniiv> that approach worked in the end, though without a graph due to alternative requirements of constructors
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23:35:21 <lambdabot> int-e said 19h 57m 31s ago: <oerjan> today on schlock mercenary: heavy punning <-- I feel that "Hurtz" would make an excellent unit for punnery.
23:36:32 <HackEso> Solidity is an esolang for writing contracts. It has good support for secure linear algebra.
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