←2020-01-13 2020-01-14 2020-01-15→ ↑2020 ↑all
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02:27:30 <esowiki> [[User:Truttle1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68834 * Truttle1 * (+293) Made a page for some reason
02:27:40 <esowiki> [[User:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68835&oldid=68834 * Truttle1 * (+0)
02:27:52 <esowiki> [[User:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68836&oldid=68835 * Truttle1 * (+5)
02:28:08 <esowiki> [[User:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68837&oldid=68836 * Truttle1 * (+2)
02:29:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Truttle1 * uploaded "[[File:Idle 00006.png]]"
02:30:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Truttle1 * uploaded "[[File:Idle 00001.png]]"
02:31:18 <esowiki> [[User:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68840&oldid=68837 * Truttle1 * (+60)
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02:53:05 <oerjan> hm esolangs.org seems down
02:58:17 <oerjan> and tunes is inexplicably _not_ serving plain text
02:58:31 <oerjan> oh hm
02:59:22 <oerjan> oh well it's just mislabeled
03:02:38 <oerjan> huh nope
03:07:47 <oerjan> ah finally
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03:19:55 <fizzie> The esolangs.org logs server does this weird thing where it sometimes just hangs. Works now for me though.
03:20:21 <fizzie> I was supposed to upload a debug build with symbols so I could figure out what's up, but never did.
03:23:42 <oerjan> well the wiki is still down
03:24:02 <oerjan> as are the logs
03:24:19 <oerjan> so it's presumably a different problem.
03:24:35 <fizzie> I don't know about that. Both work for me.
03:26:59 <oerjan> hm downforeveryone* agrees with you.
03:27:59 <oerjan> as does my linux account. i guess i'm having DNS trouble again.
03:31:37 <oerjan> hm switching DNS server didn't help
03:42:42 <esowiki> [[Keta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68841&oldid=68771 * JonoCode9374 * (+407)
03:43:29 <esowiki> [[Keta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68842&oldid=68841 * JonoCode9374 * (+11) /* Terminology */
03:56:39 <zzo38> Another kind of font metric format could be, instead of the ligature/kerning and character info that TeX uses, to have the font design size and font parameters, and then a program used for rendering a sequence of characters in the font (some of which may have accent marks added), given as input the DPI, at size, left boundary type, right boundary type, and as output can execute instructions to move the cursor and to draw glyphs on the page.
03:57:09 <zzo38> This way it is possible to use multi-byte encodings, kerning and ligatures with accented letters, etc.
04:03:15 <zzo38> Is there a MIME type for PNG file storing CMYK data in place of RGBA?
04:09:21 <Lykaina> why would you store an imamge in cmyk?
04:09:40 <Lykaina> *image
04:11:24 <zzo38> For printing.
04:12:05 <Lykaina> oh, right
04:12:49 <Lykaina> though i thought PNG was always RGBA
04:13:46 <zzo38> PNG is always RGBA. But is there a MIME type to indicate that it is meant to be interpreted as CMYK instead?
04:14:11 <Lykaina> why would there be?
04:15:04 <zzo38> I don't know, but it is something that might be useful for something that I am making.
04:16:26 <Lykaina> make your on format based on netpbm?
04:16:40 <Lykaina> *own
04:17:30 <zzo38> NetPBM formats are not compressed.
04:17:34 <imode> can't you just shift the channels around and treat them as CMYK? the scales are the same, right?
04:17:43 <imode> 0-255?
04:18:55 <zzo38> Yes of course that is possible; I just wanted to know if there is a MIME type to indicate that it is doing that.
04:19:15 <Lykaina> iirc, 255 - R = C, and so on
04:20:39 <zzo38> Lykaina: If you do not include K, then yes, it is.
04:21:25 <Lykaina> how does the generation of K work?
04:29:10 <zzo38> I think there are a few different ways of doing it; in PostScript when using RGB colours on a CMYK device you can customize the way of doing that.
04:40:37 <zzo38> (You might also want to store a picture with more than four channels, such as Hexachrome, but I don't know what file formats would use such thing.)
04:41:53 <oerjan> hm now esolangs.org _sometimes_ loads.
04:43:15 <oerjan> but mostly not. :(
04:56:45 <zzo38> I found something says that Magic: the Gathering cards are printed with CMYK, with a second layer of black for text and borders, and a underprinting layer for foil cards.
04:59:29 <zzo38> So, I would intend in future to add support for custom separations to TeXnicard, in order it is capable to make such things like this.
05:02:07 <oerjan> better now.
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05:52:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68843&oldid=68833 * Oerjan * (-1) HOW DARE YOU NOT COMPREHEND THIS PAGE'S SIMPLE SORTING SY oh hi ais523
05:53:35 <oerjan> admittedly ais523's errors are more logical than some of the others.
05:54:16 <oerjan> (including space in the sorting)
06:09:47 <oerjan> sometimes mediawiki's diff just makes me want to scream https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%E2%99%A6&diff=68819&oldid=66194
06:11:11 <zzo38> What are you sorting?
06:12:20 <oerjan> ah good, it was only the last four characters.
06:13:43 <oerjan> zzo38: the language list
06:57:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68844&oldid=53889 * Zzo38 * (+343) Bohm's algorithms
06:57:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68845&oldid=68844 * Zzo38 * (+5)
08:22:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: PNG image storing CYMK => I don't see why you want a mime type for that. just put some new section into the png itself instead to indicate that.
08:33:24 <zzo38> TeXnicard needs to know whether a picture is RGB or CMYK before loading it, which it can know by the MIME type. However, the MIME type does not need to be determined only by the filename extension; it can be determined in other ways too.
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09:48:46 <arseniiv> epimorphisms are epic
09:49:01 <oerjan> you may be onto something
09:55:06 <arseniiv> :D
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13:45:38 <myname> i think, we should rename CMYK to YMCK
13:46:19 <Taneb> Yan Magenta Cello Key?
13:47:00 <myname> didn't the K stand for black?
13:47:26 <Taneb> If it did then it would be CMYB
13:47:33 <rain1> good idea
13:47:54 <Taneb> (I looked up on Wikipedia what K stood for before I wrote my comment)
13:53:29 <myname> why isn't it RGBK then?
13:54:06 <Taneb> Because that doesn't usually use the key plate?
13:54:15 <Taneb> Because it's for digital media rather than print
13:54:58 <rain1> what's up?
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14:21:40 <fizzie> I think there was some disagreement here recently about it still standing for blacK. The Wikipedia CMYK page has a [citation needed] tag next to "key".
14:22:00 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:CMYK_color_model#K:_Key_or_blacK
14:22:15 <fizzie> tl;dr "nobody knows, whatever"
14:23:10 <fizzie> Heh, there's a zzo38 comment there, didn't even notice.
14:25:37 <rain1> how is he so prolific
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15:28:48 <wib_jonas> I consider K standing for black. Except in Magic, where for some reason, B stands for black and U stands for blue and Q stands for untap. It would have been easier in Magic too if K stood for black and B for blue and U for untap, but it's too late for that now.
15:31:29 <wib_jonas> In esoteric context, it should be black, because in the SML/NG markup language from ICFP 2001 "http://cristal.inria.fr/ICFP2001/prog-contest/task.html", the letters "rgbcmykw" stand for the colors red green blue cyan magenta yellow black white respectively.
15:34:26 <fizzie> I think it should've been S for schwarz.
15:35:29 <myname> sehr gut!
15:35:52 <myname> but wouldn't it be cmgs then?
15:36:24 <fizzie> . o O (Which languages have a different first letter for all of {red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, yellow, black, white}?)
15:36:46 <int-e> hmm, k-shield radius
15:38:08 <Taneb> Rosso, verde, azzurro, ciano, magenta, giallo, nero, bianco
15:39:18 <fizzie> Finnish manages a triple fail, because blue 'sininen' / cyan 'sinivihreä/syaani', black 'musta' / magenta 'magenta' and green 'vihreä' / white 'valkoinen' all share a first letter.
15:40:19 <Taneb> So, clearly, "B" should stand for "White"
15:41:06 <Taneb> (I've had to do a trick here which actually also works in English, saying "azure" instead of "blue")
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15:42:55 <myname> the strange thing is, cmyb would actually work
15:43:38 <int-e> Taneb: also белый (now why do I remember that word...)
15:43:55 <Taneb> int-e: I don't think that's either English or Italian
15:44:04 <int-e> Taneb: But it starts with a b.
15:44:31 <Taneb> I think it starts with a б
15:44:46 <int-e> `unidecode б
15:44:48 <HackEso> ​[U+0431 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BE]
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15:48:40 <arseniiv> be :D It could be jokingly read as “бе” with a palatalized /bʲ/ and it would be either a sheep imitation or a somewhat childish expression of mild disgust
15:50:56 <Taneb> A bit like "bah" in English?
15:53:22 <arseniiv> yeah. Also бэ, which is how the letter is pronounced today (and for quite a long time; I was surprised to know that some time ago it was pronounced with a palatalized consonant), is used for “bah” too
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16:02:22 <wib_jonas> fizzie: try https://www.omniglot.com/language/colours/index.php
16:02:47 <arseniiv> pronounced and named officially*, though sometimes people write бе as there is an unphonetic streak that in many cases е is used in place of э and doesn’t mean the prev. consonant is palatalized. Cumbersome, though maybe English orthography is still more complex. Written languages like English are good in that they often allow several spellings as “the right ones”, like with coordinates, co-ordinates or even coördinates. Here, those circum
16:02:47 <arseniiv> stances are very rare. People run themselves into a corner. One spelling reform back in IIRC sixties was cancelled because there was a loud protest to write several word classes in a more logical manner because they looked unpleasant. Uh, I’m certain those individuals would get accustomed to new spelling in no time
16:07:54 <int-e> Having experienced an orthography reform... it was exciting.
16:08:58 <int-e> (We had one in 1996, with a follow-up around 2004 that undid the most controversial aspects. But most of it stood the test of time. And yes, it involved allowing variant spellings.)
16:10:02 <wib_jonas> true, French modern orthography has some words where the spelling looks weird but at least it's phonetic. the best example is probably "aigüe", where the diæresis is used because otherwise the u would be silent.
16:10:09 <int-e> I'm not sure what variant spellings do to foreigners learning the language.
16:10:20 <int-e> I imagine it can be quite confusing.
16:11:05 <wib_jonas> int-e: what, like "ass" and "arse"? or all the -our words (color, neighbor, behavior, honor, odor, etc)?
16:11:05 <Taneb> I'm sher it woodent bee two confuzing
16:11:38 <wib_jonas> or dwarfs and dwarves, fairy and fairie and fae?
16:12:06 <arseniiv> if someone’s interested, one of the weird normative cases well-known today is the gender of “кофе” (coffee). Several centuries ago it pronounced and spelled like кофий and declined in a way normal for a masculine noun. Long story short, now its nom. sg. looks like a perfect case of a neuter gender noun like солнце, окно or e. g. какао (cocoa and cacao). In literary norm though its thought as indeclinable, and indeclinable
16:12:06 <arseniiv> nouns in a language heavily using declension is a thorn. But using кофе as a declinable neuter noun is frowned upon in the “literate” circles. Though finally dictionaries start to adopt the declinable variant, after decades and decades of use. Still, many snobs think they know better that even a normative dictionary
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16:13:49 <arseniiv> <int-e> I imagine it can be quite confusing. => maybe, but at least they wouldn’t be frowned upon if using at all times only one of them
16:14:01 <wib_jonas> I hope at one point the MTA decides to investigate the question on how the words "kisebb, zőlő, folyosó, köpeny" should be spelled. it's tricky because in some of those cases, both pronunciation is used.
16:15:31 <wib_jonas> hmm, I typoed that
16:15:41 <wib_jonas> the words "kisebb, szőlő, folyosó, köpeny"
16:16:31 <wib_jonas> then they also have to consider the cases where the pronunciation is clear, but despite that the spelling isn't, as in "bicikli/bicigli, kesztyű/keztyű"
16:18:05 <wib_jonas> alternate spelling variants hurt searchability of course
16:19:26 <arseniiv> natural languages are hard :)
16:20:06 <wib_jonas> it's especially bad when at least one of the spelling variant is homographic with some other word.
16:22:13 <wib_jonas> my favorite is "mold" vs "mould", both of which can mean either a kind of fungus, or a container to shape something that you pour into as a liquid but then hardens. the latter is also called a "die", which has two other meanings, one of which is also spelled "dice".
16:24:13 <Taneb> The die is cast
16:24:35 <kmc> yeah
16:24:46 <kmc> i like fungus
16:24:57 <kmc> and fungot
16:24:57 <fungot> kmc: a ( add b c))
16:25:14 <wib_jonas> yes, cast is what you call when you shape an object by pouring it as a liquid into a mold or mould or die
16:25:34 <Taneb> It's also a word meaning to throw
16:27:52 <int-e> . o O ( The password of the minute is attention defici. )
16:28:38 <wib_jonas> another example is "draught" vs "draft"
16:28:49 <wib_jonas> both of which have way too many meanings
16:28:58 <wib_jonas> and for some of them, you can use either spelling
16:28:59 <int-e> Dearest creature in creation...
16:29:24 <int-e> The pronunciation of "draught" should be more naughty.
16:29:44 <wib_jonas> int-e: as in https://ozyandmillie.org/comic/ozy-and-millie-2103/ ?
16:30:21 <int-e> wib_jonas: Yes, like hat.
16:32:26 <wib_jonas> there's also some other systematic variant English spellings besides the -or/-our words: a lot of -ize/-ise and -ization/-isation words, some of which come up in programming too; a few -er/-re words including scepter/sceptre, specter/spectre, meter/metre, liter/litre.
16:33:32 <wib_jonas> also some -ice/-ise words, most commonly advice
16:35:21 <wib_jonas> I personally try to use -or, but "neighbor" and "behavior" are hard because the -our spelling is too much in my fingers; the -ize version, the -ice version, but I'm not sure about -er vs -re
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16:35:43 <wib_jonas> oh, there's saber/sabre among the -er/-re words
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18:01:02 <kingoffrance> http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=devil&Query=die
18:01:21 <kingoffrance> A cube of cheese no larger than a die
18:01:21 <kingoffrance> May bait the trap to catch a nibbling mie.
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18:02:52 <kmc> i have read that mice don't actually like cheese that much
18:03:36 <kmc> we got these no-kill mouse traps
18:03:48 <kmc> the English instructions suggest using peanut butter or cheese
18:03:57 <kmc> but the French and Spanish instructions suggest peanut butter or chocolate
18:05:31 <kingoffrance> well, english chocolate apparently is not as good, or french and spanish cheese is no good
18:06:08 <kingoffrance> maybe its a price thing
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18:11:43 <kmc> given that set of 3 languages it's probably marketed for North America
18:11:50 <kmc> and American cheese is, objectively, terrible
18:11:58 <kmc> perhaps it's a kind of terrible that mice prefer to actual cheese, idk
18:12:18 <kmc> the mouse in our house seems to like brown rice and ramen noodles
18:12:22 <kingoffrance> well, there might just be terrible mice too
18:12:35 <kmc> but lately it's lurking in the living room / workspace too
18:12:37 <kingoffrance> they cant all be educated/cultured
18:12:41 <kmc> I hope it's not stealing my wires for nests
18:12:41 <kmc> true
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18:55:08 <arseniiv> <kingoffrance> http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=devil&Query=die => wow, what an article!
18:55:42 <kmc> Taneb: it's not CMYB because B was already for blue in RGB
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19:06:49 <fizzie> kmc: The mice you entice prefer mainly the rice?
19:22:33 <esowiki> [[Psychairefatback (Archive)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68846 * Lebster * (+1881) Created page with "'''This page is an archive''' of the page for Psychairefatback, a language which I thought was cool and should be archived but that was removed by its creator. Here is the pag..."
19:23:20 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68847&oldid=68660 * Lebster * (+27) /* Languages I like */
19:35:48 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68848&oldid=68847 * Lebster * (+92)
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19:41:17 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68849&oldid=68848 * Lebster * (+39)
19:41:51 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68850&oldid=68849 * Lebster * (+311)
19:43:18 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68851&oldid=68850 * Lebster * (-227)
19:43:25 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68852&oldid=68851 * Lebster * (-84)
20:15:07 <esowiki> [[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68853 * Hakerh400 * (+2417) +[[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]]
20:16:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68854&oldid=68843 * Hakerh400 * (+40) +[[Finite-state mach... wait, WHAT!?]]
20:19:25 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68855&oldid=68802 * Hakerh400 * (+40)
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21:02:52 <zzo38> Fortunately, it is possible in PostScript to specify separations even if separations are not implemented, so even before I implement separations in TeXnicard it is still possible to specify the text separation like Magic: the Gathering uses such as by writing: [/Separation /Text /DeviceGray {1.0 exch sub}] setcolorspace
21:04:34 <zzo38> The article I read did not metion the shiny mark I see on some newer cards (although maybe I missed it). Do you know how that works? Is it another separation?
21:07:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: you don't mean the hologram seal at the bottom, right?
21:07:45 <zzo38> Actually I do mean the hologram seal at the bottom, I think
21:08:40 <b_jonas> I think that one is on all rares and mythics since they introduced the new frame
21:10:19 <b_jonas> which was in 2014 for the Magic 2015 set I think
21:11:25 <b_jonas> I believe they put that on cards so that they're more difficult to counterfeit, but not on all cards presumably to save printing costs
21:14:05 <zzo38> Yes, probably, but I was wondering how the printing of it works. Is it a separation, or is it just added to the entire rare sheet afterward, or something else? (Anyways, TeXnicard is not only for Magic: the Gathering, and is intended to contain nothing specific to Magic: the Gathering, and some people may use to make other card games too.)
21:14:49 <b_jonas> I don't knowhow it's added
21:15:38 <zzo38> OK
21:19:12 <b_jonas> note that there's a different shiny seal at the bottom of some card sleeves
21:19:29 <b_jonas> its location and shape is different
21:19:38 <b_jonas> just in case you see those on photos of M:tG cards
21:23:01 <zzo38> OK
21:23:47 <b_jonas> there's probably some info about the seal on cards in a Wizards article back in 2014 when it was introduced, but probably not about the print technology
22:17:27 <zzo38> Are you interested in this software?
22:17:41 <zzo38> Do you know someone who is?
22:17:59 <b_jonas> in TeXnicard? not really, because I don't want to create printed custom cards
22:18:42 <zzo38> Do you like to create custom cards without printing them? (It is meant to be usable for that, too.)
22:18:58 <b_jonas> not in a way where I create a full image mockup for that
22:19:05 <b_jonas> I created a very few as just text descriptions
22:19:30 <b_jonas> mostly as just thought experiments for what cards would or would not work
22:21:20 <zzo38> Yes, that works, although even with TeXnicard it would not require to render them; you can still create a card set and import/export them, query them, calculate statistics of them, make random packs, etc (I also intend to add a format for doing collaboration over NNTP, so that changes can be recorded using NNTP and commented on). MSE does similar thing but requires the card to be rendered to do anything at all.
22:22:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: what I should do is download and parse the text of all cards from Gatherer, plus download the text of all cards from Scryfall
22:22:24 <b_jonas> I started at one point but I was too lazy to finish
22:23:01 <b_jonas> and then once I get that, repeat it four times a year, once after each standard-legal set
22:23:33 <zzo38> Yes, I wanted that data too
22:37:01 <zzo38> What Magic: the Gathering cards did you make up (even just for experiment)?
22:52:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-10.html#lsw
22:54:52 <b_jonas> and there's a green creature that you have to sacrifice when you control a creature with power greater than its power, but I couldn't get it to be a good card
22:55:04 <b_jonas> I mean a card that I'm satisfied with
22:57:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think I originally mentioned that card here: https://esolangs.org/logs/2015-10-06.html#loj
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←2020-01-13 2020-01-14 2020-01-15→ ↑2020 ↑all