00:00:59 <zzo38> Yes, but how exactly to do such a thing?
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00:04:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:ESON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69392&oldid=69389 * IFcoltransG * (+379) /* Ambiguity in the specification with composite types */ new section
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00:37:21 <esowiki> [[ESON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69393&oldid=69391 * IFcoltransG * (+25) Added stack-based category
00:48:31 <esowiki> [[Photon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69394&oldid=66650 * IFcoltransG * (+40) Categorised
00:51:12 <esowiki> [[Minimalist's Markup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69395&oldid=46760 * IFcoltransG * (+31) Added ML category
00:59:09 <esowiki> [[ABC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69396&oldid=66247 * IFcoltransG * (+16) Added extra disambiguation link
01:20:11 <esowiki> [[Fm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69397&oldid=63179 * IFcoltransG * (+35) Added bf derivatives category
01:21:00 <esowiki> [[Wang program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69398&oldid=65274 * IFcoltransG * (+22) Added link to Fm
01:36:21 <kingoffrance> long ago, in a galaxy far away, one of the selling points of free sofware and open source etc. was developers would gravitate towards projects they want to work on and/or scratch their own itches, this seems to have disappeared
01:43:02 <imode> right, because people don't do that anymore.
01:43:25 <imode> we all just program because managers tell us to.
01:46:21 <zzo38> Actually, people still do write programs they want to write, in their own time (when you are not at work).
01:46:53 <imode> I realize that my messages are missing an /s.
01:48:24 <zzo38> I think your message is spelled correctly (as far as I can tell).
01:49:35 <imode> people commonly annotate their messages with '/s' to indicate that the contents are sarcastic.
01:49:41 <imode> because text doesn't convey sarcasm.
02:00:47 <kingoffrance> i just mean it used to be a good thing to scratch your own itches
02:00:55 <kingoffrance> you didnt get a million "why arent you doing it MYYYYYY way"
02:07:53 <zzo38> People still write their own programs though (even if some people don't like it, then they can use different software), but some protocols/formats are made too complicated/messy.
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02:08:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:LSCEF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69399 * IFcoltransG * (+263) /* ? */ new section
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02:15:21 <kingoffrance> thats the problem with telling people "you dont matter" ultimately they wipe themselves and everyone else out, since noone ultimately matters
02:16:16 <kingoffrance> its a disguised nihilism masquerading as benevolence IMO
02:24:13 <imode> if you spent half the time thinking about what you say before saying it, maybe you would've realized that that's still the case.
02:24:45 <imode> what're some projects you've worked on? what have you contributed to the FOSS ecosystem?
02:24:53 <imode> you seem so personally invested in it.
02:25:09 <imode> not that one shouldn't have personal investment, that's what FOSS is built off of.
02:25:25 <imode> just that there seems to be something pissing you off to the point of yelling at clouds.
02:26:41 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69400&oldid=67966 * IFcoltransG * (+29) Added reference to RPN
02:27:18 <esowiki> [[Prefix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69401&oldid=67590 * IFcoltransG * (+21) Added reference to Polish notation
02:28:33 <esowiki> [[Prefix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69402&oldid=69401 * IFcoltransG * (+11) Grammar adjustment and stub template
02:31:34 <esowiki> [[ESON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69403&oldid=69393 * IFcoltransG * (+103) Referred to RPN and plethora of bases
02:34:54 <esowiki> [[Spl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69404&oldid=40949 * IFcoltransG * (+52) Added Shakespeare to the mini disambiguation
02:35:13 <esowiki> [[Spl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69405&oldid=69404 * IFcoltransG * (+1) Forgot full stop
02:36:31 <zzo38> kingoffrance: But nihilism is not necessarily malevolent.
02:38:16 <esowiki> [[SPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69406&oldid=37332 * IFcoltransG * (+106) Added a short disambig
02:39:00 <esowiki> [[Shakespeare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69407&oldid=46421 * IFcoltransG * (+100) Added a short disambig
02:44:09 <esowiki> [[Arity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69408&oldid=67964 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* Practical uses */ Pluralised for grammar
02:55:47 <esowiki> [[Lisp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69409&oldid=68961 * IFcoltransG * (+4) Added a link
02:59:18 <esowiki> [[FORTH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69410 * IFcoltransG * (+19) Redirected page to [[Forth]]
02:59:54 <esowiki> [[Forth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69411&oldid=67551 * IFcoltransG * (+28) Added metalanguages category
03:00:15 <esowiki> [[Forth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69412&oldid=69411 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Fixed my spelling mistake
03:01:38 <esowiki> [[Arity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69413&oldid=69408 * IFcoltransG * (+5) /* Dynamic arity */ Linked Python to Python
03:59:59 <kingoffrance> "you don't matter" is a new type of "FUD" i guess :/
04:00:51 <imode> onto ignore you go.
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04:37:52 <int-e> <imode> I wonder how fast you can make Thue. <-- I'm afraid that's in "sufficiently smart compiler" territory; if you manage to unravel enough of the encodings you can be arbitrarily fast, but you'll be solving instances of undecidable problems at all times.
04:40:38 <imode> int-e: not sure I follow, can you explain further?
04:41:35 <int-e> Of course there's a lot you can do to make the rewriting engine faster... indexing (hashing) substrings, or, probably more fruitfully, analysing how right-hand sides overlap with left-hand sides to track redex creation, a good data structure for the strings themselves... but competing with C will be a huge stretch.
04:42:04 <int-e> imode: Imagine somebody has a C to Thue compiler. The resulting program(s) can be made as fast as the C program in principle...
04:42:29 <imode> how would that even work?..
04:42:34 <int-e> ...by reversing the compiler's operation.
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04:44:45 <imode> A C to Thue compiler would be trying to simulate things like variables, registers, etc.. mm.
04:45:15 <imode> thue to C would be guessing the things that the rules encode.
04:46:44 <int-e> Yes. Clearly this is hopeless without knowing what the compiler does, and likely still very hard if you have the compiler available.
04:46:51 <imode> making the rewriting engine faster seems to be a reasonable prospect.
04:47:28 <int-e> imode: Yeah I replied to the wrong part of your message really. My doubts are really connected to competing with C.
04:49:08 <imode> same. it'll have to remain interpreted, because there's nothing to "compile" to C: you'll end up with a rewrite engine that has hardcoded rules instead of ones loaded from a file.
04:49:26 <imode> unless you can guess the semantics of the rules and "derive" the thing they're designed to implement, like a multi-tape TM + states.
04:50:29 <imode> at that point you haven't "compiled Thue to C", you've taken an encoding of something in Thue and provided the equivalent encoding in C. arbitrary rules aren't possible.
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07:48:43 <int-e> fungot: will it finish?
07:48:43 <fungot> int-e: but i need to rest, i'm all ears. i don't have anything else to do it
09:12:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69414&oldid=68783 * CarlosLuna * (+395) Answering the "adder" question.
10:27:10 <esowiki> [[Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69415&oldid=68859 * IFcoltransG * (-12) Unnecessary emboldening brought to my attention
10:30:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69416&oldid=69414 * CarlosLuna * (+730) Commenting on Substraction program.
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12:07:09 <esowiki> [[User:CarlosLuna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69417&oldid=68776 * CarlosLuna * (+425) Binary Sums improvements
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13:24:32 <esowiki> [[Bubbles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69418&oldid=69415 * IFcoltransG * (+400) Added IO extensions paragraph
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14:08:54 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to write quines]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69419 * Hakerh400 * (+36564) New article: How to write quines
14:09:56 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69420&oldid=68855 * Hakerh400 * (+63) New article
14:10:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69421&oldid=69420 * Hakerh400 * (+6)
14:12:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69422&oldid=69226 * Elmusfire * (+359) /* Introductions */
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14:55:10 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to write quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69423&oldid=69419 * Hakerh400 * (+16)
14:56:14 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to write quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69424&oldid=69423 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
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15:28:16 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69425&oldid=67890 * Oklomsy * (+11)
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16:53:19 <arseniiv> hm, a thought on models of programming vs. models of computation: could one say that quines are meaningful for the first and meaningless for the second?
16:54:20 <arseniiv> e. g. take a Minsky machine. To write a quine machine, we first need to conjure an encoding of machines, so the machine itself can’t be thought of as quining or not quining, it depends on an encoding
16:55:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hakerh400 * uploaded "[[File:UISFDS Space subdivision.png]]": UISFDS - Example of a space subdivision
16:55:36 <arseniiv> and that is the distinction between this model and that model IIRC
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18:12:17 <esowiki> [[COW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69427&oldid=59960 * SnoringFrog * (+637) Adding a more optimized Hello, World! program
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18:23:12 <j-bot> b_jonas: |domain error
18:27:07 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69428&oldid=69387 * SnoringFrog * (+547) Adding COW
18:36:18 <b_jonas> I think we can remove the IOCCC news from the channel topic now
18:36:52 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming library design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/.
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18:42:38 <int-e> fungot: When will I learn to add checkpointing to my long-running programs?
18:42:38 <fungot> int-e: you are eaten by a grue") in scheme?' there fnord, too
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20:07:16 <fizzie> fungot: You're long-running, right? Do you have checkpoints?
20:07:16 <fungot> fizzie: at least, there are five processes excluding the main one
20:07:34 <fizzie> Huh, sounds like it's a more complicated system than I thought.
20:07:56 <fizzie> fungot: Have you been refactoring yourself again? I'm pretty sure there was just one process when I wrote it.
20:29:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: he's stateless so he doesn't need them. he can just restart from a fresh random seed instead of continuing the same one from a checkpoint.
20:30:40 <kingoffrance> you can permaban me from this channel. to answer imode "what is pissing me off" if someone'd like to relay, its not the software, its the business people/incorporations/banks/schools/churches have adoped a "state religion" i dont subscribe to; i try to avoid contracting with treasonous psycopathic luciferians http://www.iapsop.com/archive/materials/wing_lessons/hjg/1951__frater_viii___the_seals_were_broken.pdf https://archive.org/
20:30:40 <kingoffrance> details/fundamentallaws00ordegoog in millenial "america/england" thats near impossible, they consider it 'destiny' and "freedom of religion" a joke; if you know your roman civil law, this is every incorporation's new "religion"; i draw a line at companies brainwashing employees and treason; adios
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20:41:00 <imode> that guy was quite the nut.
20:49:26 <int-e> `forget kingoffrance
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22:21:45 <b_jonas> yes, the webpage claims so
22:21:58 <HackEso> The IOCCC is the Industrial Ordovician COBOL Conference Circuit. Not to be confused with OIC. See also ioccclist.
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