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00:36:49 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70440&oldid=70236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116)
00:43:31 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70441&oldid=70440 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22681) /* Commands */
00:43:50 <longname> That seems...annoying to look at
01:05:53 <arseniiv> “of the Russian transliteration (kind of) of "Jelly" (which is "Желлый")” => wh…what?? O_o
01:06:22 <zzo38> Do you know how to write in Russian?
01:06:24 <arseniiv> I’d say джелли is a perfectly normal transliteration
01:11:32 <arseniiv> though now I wonder if I mix transliteration with something else, hm, like this one I wrote reads as near to “jelly” as possible (if one considers reading double лл as a non-geminated consonant, which is usually the case), but it’s also a transliteration. Though “джели” wouldn’t be a transliteration, and it may be a more preferred as a transcription (though someone may disagree)
01:12:00 <zzo38> What is the Russian word for "jelly", though?
01:13:11 <oerjan> hm how would дж be pronounced, is either consonant assimilated to the other?
01:13:50 <lambdabot> int-e said 3d 7h 31m 24s ago: Agatha is such a terrbible mad scientist.
01:14:30 <oerjan> because a dental followed by a retroflex is not something my tongue wants to pronounce
01:15:23 <oerjan> (then again, i'm not russian.)
01:17:04 <arseniiv> (also someone may accidentally put the accent on the last syllable, and it would be suboptimal; one can prevent that from happening by writing the accent mark explicitly: дже́лли, but as Russian is not Spanish, excessive accenting may be frowned upon; and this is sad)
01:17:04 <arseniiv> zzo38: желе (more for fruit ones), студень (also may be used for non-edible things), холодец (this one usually contains pieces of meat), and maybe a special chemical term which I forgot
01:18:32 <oerjan> int-e: someone has to be the sane one to save the world
01:21:20 <arseniiv> notable that холодец and студень is formed more or less like Latin gelata (from which, gelatine and jelly via French) — both relate to something cold/frozen/solidified, though all of them in different ways, no long-distance relations here, just a jelly preparation wisdom :D
01:21:48 <arseniiv> (and желе is most probably via that same French too)
01:25:24 <oerjan> <ais523> corollary: Fractran is almost certainly TC with 6 fractions, although the size of the fractions is probably going to be astronomical <-- cool
01:25:34 <arseniiv> oerjan: oh sorry I missed your question, one sec
01:27:31 <arseniiv> I think in most cases д would be a retroflex one, or at least something closer to retroflex than a usual dental д, and ж should stay unchanged
01:28:35 <arseniiv> also as дж is in most normal cases not an affricate, it can have a relatively long (phonetically) transition between д and ж and then it’s not that hard to pronounce
01:30:20 <arseniiv> though of course if you’d read a thorough phonetic work on this, prefer it to my rationalizations, I’m not a phonetics specialist
01:35:14 <arseniiv> also someday I need to complete reading a J. C. Catford’s “A practical introduction to phonetics”, a neat book with experimental interludes to make oneself closer to understanding what can be articulated by us humans :D Maybe not a monograph but very useful. I learned how to make ejectives and something, though without practice I already unlearned that. Though it’s fixable as easily
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01:36:59 <int-e> oerjan: I didn't @tell that part, but I also complained that having second thoughts is so inefficient :)
01:41:23 <oerjan> ah. i didn't get to it in the logs yet, lambdabot just pinged me
01:42:10 <oerjan> i also dislike second thoughts, especially when they happen after i've already started following the first one.
01:45:11 <oerjan> i see Para Ventura also does not count restoration from backup as immortality.
01:46:36 <oerjan> someone should remember to back up Cindy, though.
01:47:27 <int-e> Oh it updated already. (Of course, I'm just bad with time zones.)
01:48:01 <oerjan> it's just a few weeks while the US has transited to DST but Europe hasn't
01:50:43 <int-e> I would hope that Cindy's backing herself up, actually.
01:51:19 <int-e> Though the backup location may be Petey's domain and that's a prime target... I wonder how distributed He is.
01:55:28 <oerjan> istr the toughs backup to eina afa
01:56:02 <oerjan> some distribution is still in order
01:56:38 <esowiki> [[Line Feed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70442&oldid=70429 * A * (+92) Let's keep both interpreters
02:11:40 <int-e> Oh well, I'm re-reading some old lessons in ethics. https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-04-15
02:16:55 <int-e> (I was really looking for the first appearance of Petey, which comes 2 weeks later)
02:23:42 <oerjan> i followed that link, clicked Next, and got somewhat astounded by the art evolution of dr. bunnigus.
02:28:03 <int-e> 19 years is a long time
02:28:34 <int-e> FWIW, https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-05-18 is where they finally agree on "Petey"
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17:13:07 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70443&oldid=70374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Resources */
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19:03:43 <HackEso> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
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20:22:56 <zzo38> What improvements do you think should be made to the SQLite virtual table mechanism?
20:38:45 <int-e> zzo38: Have you stopped beating your wife?
20:40:35 <zzo38> I do not have a wife.
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21:06:59 <zzo38> What about small apples eh?
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21:29:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: sorry, it's today's xkcd
21:34:32 <zzo38> O, that's what it is.
21:36:34 <int-e> tbf, you just don't picture it all at once
21:38:17 <int-e> Imagine a 1m^3 cube, zoom in on a corner of 1mm^3 size, imagine that's your new 1m^3 cube. Repeat 4 times. Imagine that the cube you are now left with is 10 bytes then put it all together again.
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21:41:22 <arseniiv> I think either I’ve gone crazy or I got an amalgamation of effects with coeffects, at least for a simple formulation of either, and in context of applicative programming with quotes
21:41:51 <int-e> arseniiv: how about both?
21:43:13 <int-e> (But sorry, no constructive feedback is forthcoming from me; I can't bring myself to figure out what that might say.)
21:44:58 <arseniiv> all in all, an effect constructors abuses the part after it upto the end of the handled chunk; a coeffect constructor “retroactively” abuses a chunk from the start of the handled chunk upto before itself. Now we can make a bracket of these constructors, beginning with effect ctor and ending with coeffect ctor, and they would abuse the code between them, when handled
21:46:30 <int-e> where is the department for the prevention of code abuse when you need it
21:48:07 <arseniiv> though one needsnot only a handler but four extra additional converting routine arguments in case the bracket would be malformed. Usual effects with handlers use just a single one, when no effect constructor was called, and my coeffect analogy uses just one too, but this one seems to need four
21:48:52 <arseniiv> if this thing would work, I name it proeffects, as in “profunctor”
21:49:48 <arseniiv> though I’m explicitly not sure if it may be useful and if it may be generalized upto what effects-with-algebraic-declarations-and-handlers-and-whatnot are now
21:50:44 <arseniiv> on the plus side, in this case one doesn’t need separate effect and coeffect tagging on types
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21:52:46 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:57:55 <arseniiv> at least I hope I’ll be able to explain what I did for effects in this concatenative typed setting. int-e would you be interested?
22:00:19 <arseniiv> I’ll make an exposition anyway I think :D
22:24:28 <arseniiv> anyone familiar enough with Haskell types and concatenative languages should I think be able to get the following:
22:24:28 <arseniiv> we’ll type a stack as a heterogeneous list of types of its elements, like [bottom] 2 'a' [top] will have a type Char::Int::Nil. Usually one considers only several top elements of the stack, typing the mentioned one as Char::Int::xs or Char::xs or xs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> a single-word function would be typed as xs → ys. Now suppose we can quote parts of the code, writing that as [<code>]. If <code> : ts₁ → ts₂, then [<code>] : xs → [ts₁ → ts₂]::xs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> enter effects. We would denote the type of a function xs → ys having effects E when applied, as xs −E→ ys. Now we can type a concatenation simply as: f : xs −E₁→ ys, g : ys −E₂→ zs ⊢ f g : xs −(E₁∪E₂)→ zs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> let ESig e vs rs express that any constructor of effect named e takes vs and leaves rs (this is a simplistic setting); and we can add two primitives, effect and handle, with types
22:24:28 <arseniiv> effect : ESig e vs rs ⇒ vs −{e}→ rs; handle : ESig e vs rs ⇒ [[rs −E→ bs]::vs −E′→ cs]::[bs −E″→ cs]::[as −E→ bs]::as −((E\{e})∪E′∪E″)→ cs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> effect is obvious, it just makes an effect. handle takes an effect handler, a normal return handler, and a code in which we would handle the effect e;
22:24:29 <arseniiv> when a constructor is handled, the handler receives an additional delimited continuation, from the constructor upto the end of the code being handled, and the handler may choose to continue with it any numer of times or to return early;
22:24:29 <arseniiv> this is not new but the presentation for the concatenative setting may be or not be interesting. The dual thing would give a continuation from the start of the code upto a constructor, and I hope that captures something coeffectful;
22:24:30 <arseniiv> that’s all! I’ll go read something about coeffects once again or maybe I’m going to play backgammon with a friend. Hopefully this isn’t too long
22:28:38 <arseniiv> ah, also: executing effectful code would be straightforward, using a call stack enhanced with “handle entries” using as delimiters. Executing a coeffectful code will require a translation of the code, as one needs to handle constructors right to left
22:31:44 <arseniiv> and the translation should might be done very simply (with effects, too), quoting all the continuations which would be required to handle each constructor, and add some glue
22:35:20 <arseniiv> s/“handle entries” using as delimiters/…used…
22:42:42 <zzo38> I am making a major template for making Magic: the Gathering cards with TeXnicard. This includes .auto. command to automatically fill in some fields (such as the collector numbers and color identity), and .errors. command to tell you what errors it detects in the current record.
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23:54:47 <int-e> `learn Economics is just applied numerology.
23:54:50 <HackEso> Learned 'economic': Economics is just applied numerology.
23:55:04 <HackEso> Just is just a just adverb.
23:55:08 <int-e> ``mv wisdom/economic{,s}
23:55:09 <HackEso> `mv? No such file or directory
23:55:13 <int-e> `` mv wisdom/economic{,s}
23:55:14 <HackEso> mv: cannot stat 'wisdom/economic': No such file or directory
23:55:34 <int-e> right, what's that environment variable again?
23:56:02 <int-e> Or I could use the .. trick
23:56:33 <int-e> `` mv $HACKENV/wisdom/economic{,s}
23:57:15 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/economics