00:14:13 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70556&oldid=70504 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* C */
00:17:37 <esowiki> [[Cheers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70557&oldid=50618 * LegionMammal978 * (+324) added categories
00:23:03 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70558&oldid=66937 * Challenger5 * (+1058)
00:25:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70559&oldid=70552 * Challenger5 * (+264)
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01:03:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70560&oldid=70550 * Challenger5 * (+854)
01:04:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70561&oldid=70560 * Challenger5 * (+180)
01:06:06 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70562&oldid=62308 * Challenger5 * (+89)
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02:14:44 <esowiki> [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70563&oldid=69953 * IFcoltransG * (+4) /* Commands */ Updated whether the development is active or not
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02:35:42 <esowiki> [[Charm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70564&oldid=54864 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Changed from 'is actively maintained' to 'was actively maintained'
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03:16:46 <int-e> tromp: I updated BB.txt and added my code, so that should answer all your questions
05:02:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70565&oldid=70561 * Challenger5 * (-12) move my message to respect signature
05:03:11 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70566&oldid=70562 * Challenger5 * (-28) remove unused feature
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09:59:24 <esowiki> [[Vitsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70567&oldid=50645 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (-1)
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11:03:33 <b_jonas> SIGBOVIK conference procedings are released
11:03:46 <rain1> i was checking out poc or gtfo recently
11:03:49 <rain1> just remembered it recently
11:14:32 <tromp> int-e: thanks for those nice additions. I see how (\1 (\\3 2)) is in your set W. Btw, do you mind me renaming B to V and W' to B in BB.txt ?
11:21:02 <int-e> tromp: fine with me
11:21:32 <int-e> (I used V for something else initially but then got rid of that)
11:22:04 <tromp> B for bodies and V for variables is more mnemonic. plus W and W' are harder to tell apart
11:23:14 <int-e> This generalizes to things like W T W -> H[W T W], but I haven't checked whether that applies to any of the remaining size 32 cases.
11:25:00 <int-e> (There's also W W W -> H[W W W], and W W T -> H[W W T] all with slightly different definitions for W and B)
11:25:13 <int-e> (So the families explode a bit.)
11:26:16 <tromp> yeah i noticed one of those W W W -> H[W W W] cases leading my program to hang at 34
11:26:44 <int-e> (well, I didn't investigate which case it was)
11:27:05 <tromp> it was (\1 1 1) (\\1 2 2)
11:27:07 <int-e> (but it does run out of memory at 34)
11:27:43 <int-e> where memory is what I have here, which is 32G.
11:28:06 <tromp> my desktop has the same:)
11:28:29 <int-e> (\1 1 1) (\\1 (\3) 1) looks like it is a WTW case.
11:29:29 <int-e> Nah, that was too quick. It's (unless I'm confusing myself) different.
11:30:18 <int-e> Oh. I *am* confusing myself.
11:30:55 <int-e> (Namely, 1 refers to the second argument, not the first.)
11:32:29 <int-e> So the conclusion is that generalizing this criterion would get rid of at least one remaining case for BB(32).
11:33:36 <rain1> are there any conditions on H?
11:34:38 <int-e> rain1: H ::= □ | \v. H | H T -- it's a context with the hole in head position
11:39:10 <int-e> tromp: Anyway, the reason I blocked your question yesterday was because I had to figure out how to present this nicely... the initial thought process was very convoluted and not as rigorous as I liked. Sleeping on it helped... I could put things together in my head in the morning, then get up and write them down :)
11:41:01 <int-e> (And as things stood yesterday, it might have turned out that the criterion was flawed. Embarrassing, but less embarrassing than being told by somebodye else :P -- I have some pride.)
11:45:42 <int-e> I wonder whether there's any serious literature on this question... identifying lambda terms with normal form.
11:46:04 <int-e> or rather, without.
11:46:16 <rain1> i would be interested in that oto
11:46:58 <rain1> I think they are called head recurrent terms
11:47:18 <int-e> that's a small subclass
11:52:20 <tromp> studying busy beavers is an exercise in recognizing ever wider classes of divergent behaviour
11:54:48 <int-e> and also, at some point, of compressing computations which we already know will be needed to find BB(38).
11:55:16 <int-e> (because 2^65536 is uncomfortably big)
11:55:22 <tromp> at least lambda calculus lends itself better to that than turing machines:)
11:56:02 <int-e> Yeah the granularity is finer, so the difficulty rises a bit more gracefully.
11:56:06 <rain1> it's really interesting to study the lambda calculus BB
11:56:20 <tromp> TM busy beaver is stuck at 5 states, which is almost 50 bits
11:56:26 <rain1> i think it would also be interesting to check out the shortest terms that produce 2^n reductions and similar other functions
11:57:23 <int-e> maybe if you'd parameterize TMs by number of non-terminating transitions instead, you could do something more interesting
11:57:59 <int-e> But also, TMs are kind of icky to analyse; I wouldn't know where to begin :)
11:59:42 <int-e> (Okay, that's a lie. There's a fairly obvious notion of stationary loops that don't change the tape, and shifting loops that write the same string to the tape over and over again. And after that is where I think it becomes really ugly.)
12:00:41 <tromp> both cases of tape-independent behaviour
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12:07:57 <int-e> It's comparable to where we're at with the BLCBBs; the next step is bound to involve some sort of induction. Though, perhaps, there are some devilishly clever context-free-ish grammars (along the lines of W) that describe sets of terms that have no normal forms and are closed under left-most outer-most reduction.
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12:34:13 <tromp> int-e: could you represent Bot by Var maxInt instead ?
12:34:50 <tromp> (assuming incv would preserve it)
12:37:03 <int-e> Probably? Var -1 is another idea. But I started from scratch and this felt cleaner.
12:37:36 <tromp> it behaves similarly to my function eqfree in BB.lhs
12:39:17 <tromp> so you could avoid Bot by writing a custom S.member
12:39:56 <tromp> seems cleaner still
12:41:14 <int-e> (If I had worked on top of AIT.lhs I would probably have resorted to such trickery.)
12:42:15 <tromp> Equality modulo free vars is hardly trickery
12:42:33 <int-e> I meant the Var -1 idea.
12:43:37 <tromp> but expressing Equality modulo free vars is cleaner than adding a Bot constructor to your terms
12:44:11 <tromp> seems cleaner imo :-)
12:46:04 <int-e> Yeah but it doesn't interact nicely with Ord.
12:46:21 <int-e> (not that it really matters)
12:47:25 <tromp> it matters for efficiency of set membership I guess
12:47:54 <int-e> sure but that's hardly the bottleneck at the set sizes I allow
12:48:15 <int-e> I used Data.Set out of habit, really.
12:49:11 <tromp> btw, you don't need to add all r to the set, just the ones where subst 0 a b is larger in size than r
12:49:37 <tromp> i.e. the local size minima
12:50:21 <int-e> I probably don't care :)
12:50:49 <tromp> not at these sizes no:)
12:50:52 <int-e> But yeah, good point.
12:51:17 <int-e> Actually I'm worried that it would explode. :)
12:51:22 <tromp> btw, my understanding of Haskell is lacking
12:51:48 <tromp> i thought i could change your b <- return (simp b) to let b = simp b
12:52:27 <tromp> so i could just let sb = simp b
12:52:33 <tromp> and avoid the reuse of b
12:52:49 <int-e> but the shadowing of the old version is a feature here
12:53:25 <int-e> It means I will not accidently use it.
12:54:00 <tromp> a sanitation feature:)
12:54:19 <int-e> I usually use primes... and then I produce bugs by missing a prime somewhere :-/
12:54:54 <int-e> so I've become a believer in deliberate shadowing of identifiers.
12:55:22 <tromp> you're a prime example of a shadowy character:-)
12:55:30 <int-e> in lieu of assignments from imperative programming languages
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12:57:46 <tromp> yes, i guess imperative programs can be directly transcribed with x = E replaced by x <- Just E
12:57:46 <int-e> > let f n | n <- n+1, n <- n*2 = n in f 4
13:00:10 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just n+1; n <- Just n*2 in f 4
13:00:14 <lambdabot> The last statement in a 'do' block must be an expression
13:01:12 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just n+1; n <- Just n*2; return n in f 4
13:01:16 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num (Maybe Integer))
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13:02:12 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just (n+1); n <- Just n*2; return n in f 4
13:02:16 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num (Maybe Integer))
13:02:22 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just (n+1); n <- Just (n*2); return n in f 4
13:02:51 <tromp> Just ice at last:-)
13:03:09 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70568&oldid=70502 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+388) REgeex
13:28:17 <tromp> why does your simpA have an argument i that's always 0 ?
13:29:50 <int-e> because I had some idea that used it with 1 but didn't pan out
13:31:13 <int-e> related to the "level 2" beta reduction (\x\y. u) v w -> (\x. u[y := w]) v
13:31:58 <int-e> And by "didn't pan out" I mean it didn't help at the sizes I currently care about.
13:33:28 <b_jonas> quesiton about the Wiki. Ellipsis and A are categorized as Languages, whereas Unary and Lenguage are categorized as joke languages. they're essentially the same language. what makes one of them a joke language and the other a language? are they just on the border where they can just be categorized either?
13:35:13 <int-e> <joke> you gotta keep those categories balanced </joke>
13:36:54 <esowiki> [[SimPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70569 * B jonas * (+601) Created page with "'''SimPL''' is an esoteric programming language with very simple syntax. SimPL programs are very large because their contents are encoded in unary, there is only one program..."
13:38:17 <esowiki> [[SimPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70570&oldid=70569 * B jonas * (+93)
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15:00:33 <int-e> tromp: Thanks btw, you definitely have a point about using Bot to mark free variables. I don't think it actually goes wrong just yet, but it easily could...
15:01:27 <tromp> i'm rewriting my BB.lhs based on your improvements
15:02:08 <tromp> using the S.Set and storing the minimal size r
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15:02:58 <tromp> and using data BBClass = NormalForm DB | Diverging | Unknown for reduction results
15:03:01 <int-e> ...and even if it couldn't go wrong, the reasons why it doesn't happen are too subtle :)
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18:32:05 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70571 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1484) Created page with "{{Template:Distinguish/Confusion|Minimal}} '''Minimal operation language''' is a test esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]], who will try to implement it and possibly fai..."
18:32:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70572&oldid=70568 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78)
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18:50:03 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70573&oldid=70571 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* Syntax */
19:13:16 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70574&oldid=70573 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax */
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21:41:44 <b_jonas> SIGBOVIK talks are now being broadcast.
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22:16:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Binyamin * New user account
22:24:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70575&oldid=70539 * Binyamin * (+197)
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22:41:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70576&oldid=70486 * Binyamin * (+1202)
22:41:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70577&oldid=70576 * Binyamin * (-486)
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23:44:36 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70578&oldid=70046 * Binyamin * (+76) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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