←2020-04-03 2020-04-04 2020-04-05→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:09:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
00:10:13 <ais523> hi MTGBusyBeaver42
00:11:16 <ais523> sorry that I haven't been doing much on the M:tG busy beaver construction, I've been too busy playing Netrunner
00:11:24 <ais523> (which, sadly, is probably not Turing-complete; I have tried, of course)
00:48:16 <zzo38> ais523: Did you read my comment of the card game you wrote the rules for? (Also, maybe we can print cards for that game using TeXnicard, if you want to, I suppose)
00:48:27 <zzo38> (I have some other comments too, which I did not mention yet.)
00:50:22 <zzo38> Also, I think some people on this IRC may be playing mahjong? To those people, I want to ask what rule variations do you use, e.g. do you use any red fives (and if so how many), and do you use kuitan ari or kuitan nashi?
01:17:42 <zzo38> Also, what you thinking of the ability counters and other new rules of Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:36:16 <ais523> zzo38: I read your comment but didn't immediately have an opinion about it
01:36:23 <ais523> I'd have to remember how my game worked
01:37:02 <ais523> I think in order to make it into a proper game, you'd need to experiment with multiple versions of the rules until you found something that worked
01:37:19 <zzo38> I have a copy of your file in case you lost it.
01:37:21 <ais523> what are ability counters?
01:37:57 <zzo38> Something new in Magic: the Gathering apparently, that permanents with an ability counter have the corresponding ability.
01:38:16 <ais523> hmm, Netrunner has had that for ages
01:38:21 <zzo38> (I should think a new sublayer would be added to handle this, like there is a sublayer for power/toughness counters, presumably.)
01:38:26 <ais523> they're called "condition counters" and have abilities that affect the card they're on
01:38:34 <ais523> although, the only way to create them is that a card turns itself into the counter
01:38:46 <ais523> (this makes it easy to remember what the counter does, by seeing what card it is)
01:39:36 <zzo38> An idea I had before they did this was ability tokens, which is just another kind of predefined tokens.
01:42:19 -!- hakatashi1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:42:42 -!- hakatashi has joined.
01:44:11 <MTGBusyBeaver42> No worries ais523, there have been a lot of changes to the deck recently packing in more optimizations
01:48:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> I'm more worried about the judge calls about the new companions
01:48:25 <MTGBusyBeaver42> at least for the prerelease (if that even happens)
01:48:32 <ais523> in Netrunner? or in M:tG?
01:48:39 <MTGBusyBeaver42> in MTG
01:49:04 <ais523> ah right, I was confused because the new netrunner sets also have a mechanic called "companions" that are likely to cause judge calls
01:49:15 <ais523> (they lead to a lot of undos when playing online, and you can't really play not-online atm…)
01:49:47 <MTGBusyBeaver42> well these companions have a deckbuilding restriction
01:50:10 <MTGBusyBeaver42> I'm worries specifically about Lutri, the Spellchaser
01:50:26 <MTGBusyBeaver42> "Companion — Each nonland card in your starting deck has a different name. (If this card is your chosen companion, you may cast it once from outside the game.)"
01:51:18 <ais523> ugh, "starting deck" implies that the restrictions can be met or unmet as a consequence of sideboarding
01:51:26 <MTGBusyBeaver42> not only is that a complete freeroll in any izzet edh deck, its the only restriction that is easy to cheat on
01:51:28 <ais523> if not for that, you could probably just verify them in deck checks
01:51:49 <MTGBusyBeaver42> and will require deck checks
01:53:03 <ais523> anyway, when I saw the Amonkhet spoilers I thought it'd require too many counter/token types to work
01:53:10 <ais523> and still think I was right in retrospect
01:53:20 <ais523> I dislike keyword counters for a similar reason
01:53:51 <zzo38> I dislike ability counters for a different reason, which is namespace collision
01:54:56 <zzo38> (One way to avoid this is to write "flying ability counter" or "banding ability counter" instead of "flying counter" or "banding counter". Although my idea previously was tokens instead anyways, which has its own advantages and disadvantages over this way.)
01:55:32 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Please don't give out Banding counters
01:55:55 <ais523> "bands with other creatures with bands with other counters"
01:57:24 <MTGBusyBeaver42> you monster
01:58:45 <ais523> it demonstrates the namespace collision, though
01:58:50 <ais523> it's really hard to parse
01:59:15 <ais523> fwiw, I think the M10 rules update ruined banding
01:59:24 <ais523> when damage went on the stack, it was pretty easy to explain
01:59:59 <ais523> the more recent version of the combat rules is less loopholey but much more complex, and banding seems more complex still because it effectively sets the combat rules back to the older way of doing things
02:00:32 <zzo38> Yes, although I think some of that has to do with how damage prevention effects work; they work differently before and after Sixth Edition rules.
02:01:32 <zzo38> I don't think banding is too confusing, although there is a problem with the "bands with other" rules, that I wrote some alternative rules for which I think is better and less confusing.
02:06:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
02:06:41 <zzo38> In Fifth Edition, all damage went on the stack, although it is a different stack than the stack in the modern game. You could also only play spells and abilities that target whatever is on the top of the stack.
02:11:13 <zzo38> (I think destruction events also used the stack; effects which regenerate a permanent targeted the destruction events.)
02:26:04 <b_jonas> ais523: *sigh* no,
02:27:09 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
02:28:42 <b_jonas> yes, they already know how to handle the case when the card turns itself to an enchantment etc. but they want repeatable effects like on a planeswalker, and if they really want to do those, I admit that then counters that by themselves grant abilities is the cleanest solution.
02:29:20 <b_jonas> I mentioned Balduvian Frostvaker earlier, which has the same problem, it has a repeatable effect that modifies a permanent without a timeout, so you want to mark it somehow
02:29:33 <b_jonas> since you would mark it with a bead anyway, it's better if the rules treat it as a real counter
02:29:36 <zzo38> That is probably correct.
02:30:27 <b_jonas> yes, it gets complicated because there are multiple different types of counters that your deck can give to any creature, but since they want to do such an effect in just this set, ability-granting counters are probably the best
02:33:23 <b_jonas> and yes, it will get ugly even in limited, because in just this one set Ikoria, you can get +1/+1, menace, deathtouch, trample, lifelink, flying, hexproof counters, just from commons and uncommons;
02:34:29 <ais523> it'll likely slow down tournaments a lot, because you can no longer just look at a creature's art and number of counters to know its stats
02:34:45 <b_jonas> and if you have rares, "Chevill, Bane of Monsters" puts bounty counters on any creature, other rares can add first strike, reach, vigilance counters (mind you, first strik counter probably apperas on an unrevealed uncommon too).
02:34:50 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly
02:35:03 <ais523> (OK, sometimes people played auras, but not very often in constructed tournaments)
02:35:08 <b_jonas> it's not a very good gimmick for a set, but there's probably been worse gimmicks
02:35:35 <b_jonas> ais523: and the decisions get hard too, because there are rares that by themself can grant many different type of counters
02:35:40 <ais523> Amonkhet had ridiculously complicated tokens
02:35:57 <ais523> back when I played, tokens were mostly just 1/1 creatures with no abilities, and you could represent them using beads
02:36:24 <zzo38> I just took a piece of paper and tore it and wrote the characteristics of the token on the paper.
02:36:39 <b_jonas> ok, admittedly that's just one card so far, "Vivien, Monster's Advocate" and it puts three types of counters
02:36:55 <b_jonas> plus "Crystalline Giant" which puts counters on itself only, and randomly
02:37:11 <b_jonas> apparently "Crystalline Giant" is rare, not mythic
02:38:00 <b_jonas> ais523: heck no, when I played, tokens were 1/1 green elves and 1/1 black-green elves and 1/1 green saprolings, and you had to distinguish them to know which ones get bonuses from the elf lords
02:38:41 <b_jonas> and I have to follow which ones are tapped, which ones have summoning sickness, and I want to have a lot of them, because the elf decks only wins if it takes the opponent over by growing big
02:38:42 <zzo38> Yes, and for effects which say "non-black" or "protection from black" or otherwise cares about the colors
02:38:53 <b_jonas> so it isn't that trivial to keep up
02:39:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: or just fear
02:39:44 <ais523> fear isn't used in standard-legal sets nowadays
02:39:48 <b_jonas> I know
02:39:56 <ais523> which I think is a pity
02:39:57 <zzo38> Yes, fear, too
02:40:01 <b_jonas> but we were talking about how magic was played back then
02:40:09 <ais523> in old magic, some colors had advantages in the ways that other colors interacted with them
02:40:21 <ais523> e.g. black creatures were harder to destroy, because many removal spells had a "nonblack" requirement
02:40:25 <zzo38> Make up custom (unofficial) sets with fear and whatever else, if you want to do, I think.
02:40:47 <ais523> but nowadays those requirements aren't kept to consistently, so any benefits of a card have to be on the card itself
02:41:02 <ais523> I guess it's clearer to new players to do it that way
02:43:59 <b_jonas> ais523: right, with Terror and Befoul (target nonblack nonartifact creature). but then it got uglier because we started to run removal like Doom Blade (target nonblack), Deathmark (target green or white creature), Soul Reap (target nongreen creature), Eyeblight's Ending (target non-Elf creature), and more weird ones
02:44:08 <b_jonas> as well as universal ones that just target any creature of course
02:44:48 <b_jonas> and those are just the black removal spells, the white ones are weird in different ways
02:44:58 <b_jonas> the black ones and the white ones also have varying effects
02:45:24 <b_jonas> it all gets complicated if you don't just run a red deck with simple lightning bolt style spells
02:46:05 <b_jonas> at least we lost "it can't be regenerated" clauses, which is a good thing
02:48:30 <ais523> I think that regenerate should have been templated as "the next time this creature would die, regenerate it instead"
02:48:43 <ais523> (with the word "regenerate" redefined to fit the new template)
02:48:49 <ais523> that would be much clearer on how regeneration works
02:49:14 <b_jonas> ais523: it might not fit on some of the more complicated cards though
02:49:15 <zzo38> What I don't like about "regenerate" is how it means two different things (although related), so that would help. However, I think that text is too long.
02:52:09 <b_jonas> regenerate is probably bad because it is one of those complicated keywords that appeared on many cards since early sets and the rules had to maintain and its use was continued as a sort of tradition, similar to protection and banding
02:52:36 <b_jonas> it's possible that the early sets shouldn't have started that tradition, but it's sort of too late now, and it would be even uglier to have a different regenerate-like ability in parallel
02:54:10 <ais523> such an ability exists and is commonly used, "gains indestructible until end of turn"
02:54:14 <b_jonas> this is still better than the simpler abilities that existed in lots of different versions, like reach, shroud, hexproof, lifelink, deathtouch, and all those triggers that grant +X/+X when the creature is (a) attacking (b) blocking (c) blocked (d) unblocked (c) blocked but with multipilicity (f) blocking but with multiplicity etc
02:54:18 <zzo38> I think regenerate, protection, and banding are all fine, although the wording for regeneration is bad due to how I mentioned.
02:55:05 <b_jonas> ais523: gains indestructible is somewhat more powerful though, because it doesn't remove the creature from combat
02:55:25 <b_jonas> though that only matters if there's more than one damage assignment time I guess
02:55:28 <b_jonas> or such things
02:55:53 <zzo38> Yes. One card I made up though is "Universal Salvation", which regenerates all permanents when it resolves.
02:56:09 <zzo38> I have also written cards with "regenerate and then destroy this permanent".
02:56:19 <b_jonas> `card-by-name bear umbra
02:56:20 <HackEso> Bear Umbra \ 2GG \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/+2 and has "Whenever this creature attacks, untap all lands you control." \ Totem armor (If enchanted creature would be destroyed, instead remove all damage from it and destroy this Aura.) \ ROE-R
02:56:33 <b_jonas> ^ this is how regenerate should have been done originally, but it's incompatible with our regenerate
02:57:38 <b_jonas> with "The next time this creature would be destroyed" for repeatable abilities of course
02:58:41 <b_jonas> also lets you use {T} abilities of the creature after combat
02:58:52 <b_jonas> yes, I guess that one is somewhat similar to what ais suggests
02:59:15 <b_jonas> the "gains indestructible until end of turn"
02:59:37 <b_jonas> that might indeed be better
03:05:10 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:07:15 <zzo38> I like the way regeneration works; it prevents from destruction only once rather than twice, and the regenerated permanent is tapped, too, which can be meaningful.
03:08:38 -!- imode has joined.
03:10:47 <ais523> I think creatures should have to tap to block
03:11:24 <ais523> it'd be easier to track the gamestate, and also reduce the number of unintuitive interactions (like blocking with Prodigal Pyromancer and also tapping it, to damage the creature it's blocking twice)
03:14:51 <zzo38> I do not think it is unintuitive.
03:23:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
03:35:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70612&oldid=67809 * Hakerh400 * (+953) Updated the interpreter to match the specification
03:48:42 -!- MTGBusyBeaver42 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:20:54 -!- wlp1s1 has changed nick to [iczero].
04:55:56 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)).
05:31:39 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70613&oldid=66136 * Hakerh400 * (+15)
05:36:37 <zzo38> I thought making up a keyword ability for Magic: the Gathering where you can play the card from the ante zone (if you own it), at the cost of anteing two cards of your choice from your hand (in addition to any other applicable costs).
05:42:01 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70614&oldid=67426 * Voltage2007 * (-210)
06:41:33 -!- [iczero] has changed nick to iczero.
08:09:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nonameremote * New user account
08:10:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70615&oldid=70608 * Nonameremote * (+109)
08:10:52 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
08:13:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:31:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:44:37 -!- abrex has joined.
08:45:00 <abrex> hello
08:45:39 -!- abrex has left.
08:49:30 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:50:13 -!- tromp has joined.
08:54:28 -!- arseniiv has joined.
08:58:27 -!- rain1 has joined.
09:28:27 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
09:29:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:29:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
12:02:00 -!- xkapastel has joined.
12:13:43 -!- Frater_EST has joined.
12:43:50 -!- user24 has joined.
12:45:39 <int-e> tromp: I see you filled the gaps for BB(32)
12:47:54 <tromp> yep. so we can consider the 298 proven
12:48:13 <tromp> i'll work on 33 cases next
12:48:32 <tromp> to see if 1812 is true max
12:49:33 <tromp> computations for 34 seemm to blow up (using way obave 32GB)
12:52:06 <int-e> Yeah, I have not investigated why.
12:53:38 <int-e> I tried lowering the depth and then it went through, but it didn't produce the right maximum either (leaving the (\1 1 1 1) (\\2 (2 1)) case to be done)
12:57:37 <int-e> But tbh I was after low-hanging fruits only anyway... so 31 was a very sweet spot to stop in that regard.
13:12:05 <tromp> i sure am curious to see if BB(34) > 5*2^16+6 though :)
13:17:27 <tromp> seems unlikely...
13:17:34 <b_jonas> those busy birds
13:18:31 <tromp> busy bodies :-)
13:44:49 <rain1> can #esoteric recommend any youtube channels?
13:50:58 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:46:51 <esowiki> [[Aeon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70616&oldid=68588 * LegionMammal978 * (+24) fixed link
15:29:08 -!- diverger has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:42:08 -!- MDude has joined.
15:43:13 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
15:46:40 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:52:32 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:03:55 -!- imode has joined.
16:16:26 -!- kritixilithos has joined.
16:50:10 <b_jonas> `olist 1198
16:50:16 <HackEso> olist 1198: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:50:45 <b_jonas> rain: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiyuYC0D4-AO0AonCfMifPQ hr-Sinfonieorchester – Frankfurt Radio Symphony
17:09:38 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
17:20:20 -!- kritixil1 has joined.
17:22:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:45:43 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:49:05 -!- kritixil1 has joined.
17:59:20 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70617&oldid=70614 * Areallycoolusername * (-11) The C Interpreter is not official. The C++, VB.Net, and brainfuck interpreters are.
17:59:47 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70618&oldid=70617 * Areallycoolusername * (+2)
18:14:59 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:22:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:22:48 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:29:33 -!- diverger has joined.
18:30:31 -!- diverger has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:33:48 -!- divergence has joined.
18:34:03 -!- kritixil1 has joined.
18:42:16 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70619&oldid=70611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Operators */
18:42:17 <zzo38> Recently someone posted to my NNTP about a chess variant called "corona chess", in which pieces only move 1 square distances, and must go home every 10th move. I think there are some problems with that, and it could be improved, though.
18:45:51 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70620&oldid=70619 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) /* Gotos */
18:46:40 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70621&oldid=70620 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) /* Syntax */
18:50:24 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70622&oldid=70621 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* Operators */
19:00:23 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:12:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:12:37 <zzo38> I can set up a NNTP to discuss the card game that ais523 was making, if this is wanted (or ais523 can set it up on their own server, if they have one).
19:19:45 <zzo38> I do have some other ideas. One is flags, which is another statistic; a card might either have or not have a flag. I can also think of a possible overspill effect for reconnaissance; one possibility is moving cards from the bottom of your spent pile to the bottom of your regular pile (maybe I mentioned this already). I also have some ideas about layers (this is kind of similar to the layers in Magic: the Gathering, but without any time
19:21:33 <zzo38> The set of flags would be fixed by the rules, and which ones are defined is according to what would be needed. I am not so sure I like the rule about max health reductions, although I don't know what would be better.
19:25:20 <zzo38> The layers might be: [I] Deleting aspects. [II] Adding aspects. [III] Changing flags; if the same number of effects add and remove the same flag, the flag remains unchanged, otherwise whichever is more wins. [IV] Numerical effects (addition and subtraction of constant or calculated values, as described by the existing rules). [V] Adding manoeuvres. [VI] Deleting manoeuvres.
19:25:49 <zzo38> Aspects can see the changes made by previous layers but not changes made by the current layer. Later layers override earlier layers.
19:29:31 <zzo38> (If an effect alters a manoeuvre without adding or deleting it, it is treated as though it adds the altered one and deletes the old one, and is treated as a layer V effect for the purpose of determining what values it can see. This means that layer VI effects will see both the original and altered manoeuvre.)
19:48:09 <zzo38> Another idea is to use some computer programming language to implement these rules, perhaps in Haskell.
20:02:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GigoG * New user account
20:08:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70623&oldid=70615 * GigoG * (+165) /* Introductions */
20:09:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70624&oldid=70623 * GigoG * (+120) /* Introductions */
20:10:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70625&oldid=70624 * GigoG * (-52) /* Introductions */
20:19:58 -!- kritixil1 has joined.
20:20:17 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Client Quit).
20:20:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:21:08 <ais523> zzo38: I did have an idea about layers, although it might restrict the cards you could make too much
20:21:18 <ais523> the idea was to design the cards so that the layer sequence never mattered
20:22:53 <esowiki> [[Magenta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70626&oldid=30997 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+230) Now you too can read about bear food
20:27:21 <zzo38> Actually, I thought of adding the layers for the opposite reason, since the lack of timestamps makes some restrictions anyways, this layer system I suggest would add more flexibility; there are some things that are immutable anyways, with or without layers, and some effects which don't work anyways. I think the current system you have doesn't work at all with effects other than adjusting numerical values anyways.
20:34:00 <esowiki> [[Arbol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70627&oldid=25343 * LegionMammal978 * (+78) /* External resources */ fixed link
21:01:35 -!- spruit11 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:30:11 -!- ap0calyps3 has joined.
21:31:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
21:31:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:34:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
21:47:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:02:38 <esowiki> [[AttoASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70628&oldid=33532 * LegionMammal978 * (-104) /* External resources */ fixed link
22:03:56 -!- ap0calyps3 has left.
23:25:32 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:37:55 -!- xkapastel has joined.
23:52:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
←2020-04-03 2020-04-04 2020-04-05→ ↑2020 ↑all