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01:03:43 <b_jonas> everyone knows that naming something "final version" is almost always a bad idea, because there will be a later vesrion. and "modern" or "contemporary" is also almost always a bad idea, because your book title WILL read stupid a few decades from now. but I'm starting to suspect that naming technological things "mini" or "micro" or "nano" or "tiny" or "compact" is also a bad idea, because something
01:03:49 <b_jonas> smaller will come along later and your name will sound silly. just look at "compact flash cards" and "compact disks"
01:08:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, I should have looked on the scryfall wiki first: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Hero_(card_type)
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01:16:13 <zzo38> O, so that is what it is. (It still isn't quite so clear how it is working. Vanguards aren't permanents, but heroes presumably would have to be, in order for their functions to work.)
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04:53:37 * pikhq yawns, waves for the first time in some time
05:15:53 <int-e> yawn-wave
05:16:44 <int-e> somebody should try that in a stadion... get a column to yawn simultaneously, see how infectious yawns really are)
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05:25:40 <pikhq> Lol
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07:19:22 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70605&oldid=70558 * Challenger5 * (-164)
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13:13:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:2KWLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70606 * LegionMammal978 * (+232) Created page with "Are the Unicode double quotes (<code></code> as opposed to <code>""</code>) part of the syntax, or are they unintentional? ~~~~"
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14:52:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nomennominatur * New user account
14:54:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70607&oldid=70602 * Nomennominatur * (+113)
14:55:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70608&oldid=70607 * Nomennominatur * (+0)
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17:21:17 <tromp> int-e: i'm working on resolving the remaining TODOs in BB.txt
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19:08:01 <MTGBusyBeaver42> For those interested in an update on the MTG deck using The Waterfall Model to get BB numbers while still not going infinite, our current bound is BB_16(120)
19:08:04 <MTGBusyBeaver42> where BB_1(x) is the normal busy beaver function and BB_2(x) is BB_1(x) nested instances of BB_1(x)
19:10:08 <MTGBusyBeaver42> We still have a little room and are no longer restricted to 6 clocks (now over 100)
19:10:50 <MTGBusyBeaver42> what would be helpful would be knowing whether the Flooding variant is Turing complete or not.
19:20:40 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver42: I wanted to ask, what is the defn of BB_k?
19:21:34 <b_jonas> you only say what BB_2 is and it"s not clear how to continue
19:30:08 <b_jonas> also doesn't BB have two inputs, the nr of clocks and the bound on the matrix elements, and you vary only the latter?
19:30:49 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Bound on the matrix imput
19:31:27 <MTGBusyBeaver42> BB_n+1(x) is BB_n(x) nested BB_n(x) times
19:32:50 <b_jonas> do you always have 120 clocks? what is the matrix elt bound at the start?
19:33:12 <MTGBusyBeaver42> once we have more than 6 clocks we can implement a UTM where the simulated TM is bound by the input
19:33:44 <b_jonas> I mean it might not matter, you get a number that's larger than I can imagine
19:34:08 <MTGBusyBeaver42> we max out our clocks at half the number of creature types
19:35:01 <MTGBusyBeaver42> the 120 constant is the number of large life gains we can get in the setup
19:36:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> which is mostly from the limits of the opponent's deck size
19:38:17 <MTGBusyBeaver42> We have them draw 53 cards and discard 60 for 113 just from their deck
19:40:49 <b_jonas> how do you get the output value from the waterclock machine?
19:42:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> we make mana via Mana echoes and turn that into storm for Thousand Year Storm
19:43:14 <MTGBusyBeaver42> And eventually run out of attack steps so we have the last one trample over and kill them
19:45:31 <b_jonas> But what value does that read from the abstract machine? it's just that 120 sounds too small and I want to see this can even start to grow
19:46:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70609&oldid=70590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* M */
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19:50:04 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Well theres a bit of rounding being lost in the bound. We get a few iterations just using our starting life total, and we can easily make our starting matrix for the first computation have values far more than 10^^^^10
19:51:31 <MTGBusyBeaver42> which was what ais theorized was required to get BB numbers with the 6 waterclock version
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20:01:50 <MTGBusyBeaver42> (I'm not sure exactly how big we can get the first computation, most of the tiers we get for the BB function also apply to our pre BB setup to get up to 10->10->16, but it doesn't show in the overall estimation)
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20:03:16 <esowiki> [[ADDI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70610&oldid=65119 * LegionMammal978 * (+7730) copied operator tables
20:05:31 <b_jonas> anyway, iterating BB_n BB_n times to get BB_{n+1} is crazy
20:05:38 <MTGBusyBeaver42> so our first computation would last on the order of BB(x) ticks, and we's get BB(x) colorless mana, which becomes BB(x) storm, and then BB(x) extra combat steps at the cost of a red mana
20:05:39 <b_jonas> that will result in even larger numbers than I can imagine
20:05:48 <b_jonas> and then you do BB_16
20:06:16 <b_jonas> that sounds crazy big, unless you messed something up and it just doesn't work and the deck can just deal 500 damage or something
20:07:08 <MTGBusyBeaver42> more likely is we have missed an infinite and the deck is disqualified :(
20:07:28 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70611&oldid=70600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Syntax */
20:08:57 <b_jonas> that too
20:09:16 <b_jonas> BB(BB(10^^^^10)) is already much larger than any number that I can imagine
20:09:23 <b_jonas> very likely even BB(10^^^^10) is
20:12:34 <MTGBusyBeaver42> even BB(1919) is beyond ZFC set theory
20:15:11 <MTGBusyBeaver42> in that someone has explicitly made a 2 symbol, 1919 state Turing Machine that halts IFF ZFC is inconsistent.
20:15:50 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver42: yes, but that's for the turing machine BB, not for the waterclock BB
20:15:59 <b_jonas> for waterclocks, 1919 is probably not enough
20:16:24 <b_jonas> 10^^^^10 is way more than enough with a few dozen clocks
20:17:04 <MTGBusyBeaver42> true, but they still grow at an uncomputable rate
20:17:11 <b_jonas> that said, that particular 1919 state machine probalby does not halt
20:17:14 <b_jonas> so it doesn't really help you
20:17:52 <b_jonas> the rate, sure, I was just afraid that if you start form 120, then you get something silly like BB(120) = 1, and you can't even start to increase your numbers
20:18:05 <b_jonas> but I hope you checked that that's not the case with your construction
20:19:25 <MTGBusyBeaver42> oh no we can easily grow faster, consider the examples on the tutorial http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/
20:19:43 <b_jonas> by the way, beaver is particularly thematic for a waterclock machine, because they build dams
20:20:05 <b_jonas> so it should be like "busy ant" for a turing machine, and "busy beaver" for waterclock
20:20:42 <MTGBusyBeaver42> all of the halting examples take more than their maximum value to halt
20:22:20 <MTGBusyBeaver42> and yes, the name and theme of TWM is particularly suited to this challenge
20:23:58 <b_jonas> I guess it would be "busy bee" for a machine with a RAM, and "busy bird" for something based on combinator calculus or lambda calculus
20:25:10 <b_jonas> tromp: do you call it busy bird function?
20:25:22 <b_jonas> the binary lambda calculus one that is
20:27:35 <tromp> lno; i just call it BB_lambda
20:28:13 <tromp> as you can see at https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form
20:29:28 <tromp> if you define one for combinators it's gonna grow slower
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20:46:49 <tromp> BB.txt updated in repo
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21:17:41 <zzo38> Can division by zero errors be caught in Turbo Pascal?
21:21:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: division of what type?
21:22:28 <zzo38> Integer division.
21:23:27 <b_jonas> sure, but 16-bit or 32-bit? because 16-bit is a cpu built in instruction, but 32-bit need not be if you're compiling for 286. also, for what target? DOS or Win16?
21:24:00 <b_jonas> for DOS and 16-bit, you can probably just override the interrupt handler, as long as you restore the original handler when your program exits
21:24:08 <zzo38> Sixteen bits. Target is DOS.
21:24:32 <b_jonas> then probably override the interrupt handler.
21:25:05 <b_jonas> turbo pascal has a well-defined register use ABI so you can interface it with machine code
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21:33:19 <zzo38> Do you know if Turbo Pascal has a IF expression (like C has the ?: expression)?
21:33:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it has one, but you'll have to check the help
21:34:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you need a lazy one?
21:34:21 <b_jonas> I mean a shortcut one
21:34:53 <zzo38> Yes.
21:35:17 <b_jonas> I think you need a proper if statement, but I'm not sure
21:35:20 <zzo38> (Of course I can do without, although it would be helpful to have it if it does have.)
21:36:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: could you use borland C++ instead? you can even link compilation units among them together if you write C prototypes of the pascal functions, and compile exported C functions with the pascal calling convention
21:36:50 <b_jonas> it even has a slightly better optimizer
21:37:08 <b_jonas> and a comparably good library that comes with them
21:37:26 <b_jonas> though really ancient, confusing if you are used to modern C or modern C++
21:37:46 <zzo38> I doubt it is a good reason to change everything to C just due to such an operator, since a IF expression isn't really needed
21:37:53 <b_jonas> in particular, be REALLY careful with code that uses the "long long" type, because the borland compiler believes that's just a strange spelling of "long" and accepts it without warning and gives you a 32-bit integer
21:38:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, that alone isn't a good reason to change
21:40:32 <b_jonas> also the pascal compiler is at least small. I could put turbo.exe (the GUI) and the few files it needs (but not the command-line compiler) to my compressed boot floppy with enough space for other programs, that's impossible for the borland C compiler with just a single 1.44 MB floppy
21:41:49 <b_jonas> but then you can probably afford multiple floppies, or a hard disk
21:42:11 <zzo38> Yes, I am storing the files on the hard disk
21:42:32 <b_jonas> termbot had both the pascal and the C compiler runnable from command line from its hard disk
21:42:40 <b_jonas> (also qbasic)
21:43:22 <b_jonas> (but qbasic is very hard to use, because its PRINT statement and error messages don't write to stdout/stderr)
21:44:12 <zzo38> I doubt that C is the best programming language for real-mode PC programming, due to the memory segmentation.
21:44:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: borland C has extensions to C for that
21:45:39 <b_jonas> you can declare pointers that point to specific program segments, dereference pointers to a specific segment, even have variables of type pointer to segment and dereference using those, or just have far or huge pointers
21:45:39 <zzo38> O, OK.
21:46:01 <b_jonas> IIRC there's a special infix operator :> to combine a segment with an offset
21:46:25 <b_jonas> of cousre you may still want to write some or all of your program in assembly, simply because the compiler doesn't optimize too well
21:48:26 <zzo38> The reason I am using Pascal is because I am modifying a program that is already written in Pascal, anyways.
21:49:26 <b_jonas> and do you want to compile it for DOS, as opposed to port it to a more modern linux pascal compiler?
21:50:26 <zzo38> Yes, I am compiling it for DOS. (I have no intention to port this program to other operating systems, although some other people are, either in Pascal or by rewriting it in C.)
21:50:57 <zzo38> It is ZZT. Do you like ZZT?
21:51:22 <b_jonas> I don't know, I don't follow these game engines much
21:55:58 <zzo38> I have made many changes, including removing the editor (in order to save memory; but there are external editors that can be used instead), allowing pushing X to clear the message line during game play, making HOME and END keys work in popup text windows, displaying file modification times in the save game menu, getting rid of the configuration menu and help menu (to save both memory and time), etc
22:03:18 <zzo38> Does DOSBOX implement EMS?
22:03:26 <b_jonas> I hope so
22:05:13 <b_jonas> but if not, there are other emulators
22:12:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: try to run the MEM command, that should at least tell if EMM is enabled in your current config
22:13:22 <zzo38> It says 15168 Kb free expanded memory, so it looks like it is implemented (although I don't know if there are problems with the implementation).
22:18:30 <zzo38> Another emulator is Zeta, which is sometimes used with ZZT, although Zeta does not implement EMS as far as I can tell (even though the author of Zeta has also written the code to allow ZZT to use EMS)
22:20:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: I used Dosbox very little. I just ran most of my DOS programs on a real MS-DOS in a machine emulated by Bochs
22:21:02 <b_jonas> well, after I stopped running native DOS that is
22:21:56 <b_jonas> and DOS windows in Win16
22:24:09 <b_jonas> although that's sort of orthogonal, I have ran Win16 in the Bochs virtual machine
22:32:07 <zzo38> There is only one 16-bit Windows program I intend to run on my computer, which is Hero Mesh, so that I can test the behaviour to see that the behaviour of Free Hero Mesh in compatibility mode matches that of Hero Mesh.
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