←2020-04-13 2020-04-14 2020-04-15→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:21:40 <esowiki> [[Systemf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71004&oldid=52502 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) fixed title
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01:25:18 <esowiki> [[Tbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71005&oldid=40952 * LegionMammal978 * (+5) fixed title
01:27:48 <esowiki> [[Tbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71006&oldid=71005 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link
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01:52:24 <esowiki> [[ThETA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71007&oldid=16258 * LegionMammal978 * (+31) fixed title
01:53:45 <esowiki> [[ThaM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71008&oldid=30198 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link
01:54:19 <esowiki> [[ThaM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71009&oldid=71008 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed other link
02:03:42 <zzo38> Do you like Sean Uy's puzzles?
02:07:03 <esowiki> [[Thotpatrol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71010&oldid=51367 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) fixed title
02:47:01 <esowiki> [[TinyBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71011&oldid=50225 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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03:30:17 <zzo38> Is someone on today?
03:31:05 * pikhq is, actually
03:32:52 <zzo38> Is there a option in Firefox and/or other web browsers that cookies can be disabled except for redirects?
03:33:07 <pikhq> I have not seen such an option, no
03:34:06 <zzo38> What do you think of my idea of "fission" ability for Magic: the Gathering cards?
03:35:39 <pikhq> I must say, I missed your discussion of it, so I can't say
03:36:13 * pikhq should maybe get back into Magic after this is all over...
03:36:49 <zzo38> Starts at UNIX timestamp 1586738893.
03:37:33 <zzo38> Even if you are alone, you can still compose and/or solve puzzles of Magic: the Gathering, which is something I like to do.
03:38:15 <pikhq> My wife knows how to play, but I'm more into it than her, and she's been preoccupied with Final Fantasy 7 lately
03:38:44 <pikhq> otoh could do internet stuff
03:38:47 <zzo38> Do you like puzzles of Magic: the Gathering?
03:38:58 <pikhq> I have never really gotten into 'em
03:39:16 <pikhq> For me a decent chunk of the appeal of Magic _is_ the fact you're playing with other people
03:39:47 <pikhq> Like, yes, the game itself is appealing, but I also enjoy the social nature of it
03:40:01 <zzo38> There are some free open source implementations of Magic: the Gathering; one I looked at (but never used; I only looked at the code) is Xmage, which does not implement text changing effects.
03:40:14 <pikhq> Yeah, I've used some in the past
03:41:25 <zzo38> I thought to implement a RDF-based format which can implement many features of Magic: the Gathering much better. So, that is my suggestion to someone who is implementing Magic: the Gathering.
03:42:37 * pikhq wonders if she should rope her girlfriend into learning Magic :P
03:42:56 <pikhq> Probably not, unless she waaaants to...
03:43:45 <zzo38> You could ask if you want to, I suppose.
03:44:10 * pikhq nods
03:44:53 <zzo38> Chess (and many chess variants, too) can also easily be played by computer without specialized software, using IRC or a direct connection or whatever (or even by telephone, too, actually)
03:45:24 <zzo38> Card games is more difficult to do by computer without the specialized software, but chess game can be done easily.
03:45:31 <pikhq> Yeah, I mean, chess is trivial to do remotely.
03:45:43 <pikhq> Correspondence chess has been a Thing for ages, after all
03:46:56 <zzo38> Yes, it must have been. I don't know how old it is exactly, but I think it was even done by telegrams in the past
03:47:24 <ais523> pikhq: I've basically given up on Magic as a game to play, as opposed to a game to theorize about
03:47:41 <ais523> I've disliked the direction it's been going in for quite a while
03:47:53 <pikhq> I've only played Magic in kitchen table formats, thankfully
03:47:58 <zzo38> Dod you read my "fission" ideas about making a card that becomes two objects in the battlefield but only one outside (like the reverse of meld)?
03:48:50 <zzo38> ais523: I don't like many of the features of the rules either (or some of the card designs), but in some cases I have thought of how to make a variant rules, trying to make it close to the official rules though
03:51:38 <ais523> the basic problem is that Wizards are trying to make too many products for too many audiences, and are being pulled in too many directions and the quality has gone way down
03:52:10 <zzo38> Although some of these rules aren't so new, and some of them they have fixed (for example, I didn't like the planeswalker redirection rule and I am glad they removed it), but one rule I dislike is names for tokens, which seems mathematically klugy to me in the way the spelling works. Subtypes should be a separate namespace from names and shouldn't interact in this way (with the possible exception of conventional basic lands).
03:52:13 <ais523> actually, something similar to this is why I gave up on Pokémon (the video game, not the card game, and not the video game /of/ the card game)
03:52:52 <ais523> hmm, would "a land token named Island" tap for blue? my guess is no (but "an Island land token" would)
03:53:01 * pikhq shrugs
03:53:07 <zzo38> ais523: I agree with you about the land tokens.
03:53:18 <pikhq> tbh my time is nevertheless likely to be occupied
03:53:39 <zzo38> Since, "a land token named Island" still doesn't have the subtype Island, so it doesn't implicitly have "{T}: Add {U}".
03:53:57 <ais523> anyway, the M:tG Busy Beaver people are apparently trying to figure out a way to create an Ackermann-like function only it has the busy beaver function rather than an increment
03:54:14 <ais523> zzo38: right, I was just wondering whether there was a special rule for things named Island, or whether that only applies to cards
03:54:31 <ais523> like, a card named Island implicitly has the Island subtype
03:54:38 <ais523> if it's printed that way
03:54:44 <ais523> due to how Oracle text works
03:55:02 <ais523> but I guess that doesn't affect tokens that were created with the same name as a card due to Artificial Evolution
03:55:09 <ais523> or even naturally
03:55:30 <ais523> (IIRC think "Splinter" is both a card name, and a name of a token that can be created without text-changing effects)
03:55:41 <zzo38> ais523: O, yes, that is a rule of Oracle text for conventional basic lands. And, yes, it won't affect tokens of course, or even cards, just, I should think it should mean, as far as the game is concerned, a card printed with a given name has the text specified by the Oracle text as its initial text.
03:56:27 <zzo38> The exception I mentioned for conventional basic lands doesn't mean that names are subtypes, only that the name of "an Island land token" would compare as equal to the name of a card named "Island", but this isn't the case for creature tokens that are not explicitly given names (if they are explicitly given names, then they do compare equal to card names that are spelled the same way in English).
03:57:03 <ais523> I think removing special cases would be helpful
03:57:07 <ais523> `card-by-name Spreading Seas
03:57:08 <HackEso> Spreading Seas \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Spreading Seas enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land is an Island. \ ZEN-C
03:57:48 <zzo38> That changes the subtype, not the name. It wouldn't change under the rules I mention.
03:57:49 <ais523> my preferred templating for the second ability would be «Enchanted land is an Island with "{T}: Add {U}" and no other subtypes or abilities.»
03:58:17 <ais523> as it is, there's a special rule that changing the subtype of a land removes all its abilities, and there's a special rule on the Island subtype to add the ability to tap for {U}
03:59:07 <zzo38> Yes, those are special cases. The special rule about changing the subtype of a land removing all abilities I agree is a bit klugy, but the rule that those subtypes implicitly cause it to have those abilities is I think probably important to keep how it is.
03:59:26 <ais523> the implicit rule for the Wall subtype got removed
03:59:54 <zzo38> Yes, and that is good that they removed the rule for Wall.
04:00:00 <pikhq> Yeah, that got swapped over to being an explicit ability, and thank goodness
04:00:07 <pikhq> I don't like that sort of hidden magic in game design
04:01:03 <zzo38> (Also, I mentioned "possible exception"; maybe my new rule should not have the exception for names of conventional basic lands. I am not sure. Either way, it won't affect non-conventional basic lands.)
04:01:19 <ais523> I do like design guidelines like "black creatures are hard to destroy" but those don't have to be part of the game rules
04:01:35 * pikhq nods
04:02:03 <pikhq> That's the sort of thing you don't have to explain to people to learn the game, but will _inevitably_ pick up if they play enough
04:02:22 <ais523> that's one thing that the Pokémon video games do well, the power of something can be in how other things interact with it rather than in its own rules
04:05:07 <ais523> although it can lead to things getting a little broken sometimes when the delicate chain of interactions breaks down
04:05:18 <ais523> e.g. see https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ask-a-simple-question-get-a-simple-answer-mark-ii-roa-edition.3468567/page-53#post-8317201 and the answer two posts below (I'm callforjudgement)
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04:05:36 <pikhq> Yeah...
04:07:08 <ais523> the funny thing is that Arena Trap started off as a safety valve against one strategy, and ended up, many years later, making another strategy too strong by countering its counters
04:07:33 <zzo38> There are some unofficial implementations of Pokemon battles too, with different generations.
04:08:08 <zzo38> What does the Arena Trap ability do?
04:08:51 <ais523> it prevents grounded opponents from switching out as long as the Arena Trap user is in battle, without the help of an item that ungrounds them (Air Balloon) or that allows them to ignore trapping effects (Shed Shell)
04:09:02 <zzo38> OK
04:09:41 <ais523> but all its users are very defensively vulnerable in order to compensate for the fairly good ability
04:10:04 <ais523> so normally there's not much point in trapping the opponent with it because they just KO you and regain the ability to switch out that way
04:12:40 <zzo38> OK
04:12:49 <ais523> oh, I think the Run Away ability might also allow you to ignore trapping effects, not sure though, they keep changing what abilities do and most of the changes have been really good ideas, but it makes the rules hard to remember sometimes
04:13:30 <zzo38> Well, just you should agree which generation you are playing, and then, you should use the rules for that generation, I should think. (With any alterations for the specific match, if any, I suppose.)
04:14:05 <ais523> zzo38: I agree; it's just that there are eight generations now and trying to remember the rules for each of them is complicated
04:14:42 <ais523> there was a really major rules change in generation 8 (the turn order isn't locked in at the start of the turn, rather it's recalculated for every Pokémon that hasn't moved yet after each move) which I dislike
04:14:55 <ais523> and which keeps catching me out in generation 8 battles
04:15:44 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it is difficult like you said.
04:16:34 <zzo38> I thought turn order was based on speed? If that is how it work then I should think the result is same either way? Does it do another way?
04:17:10 <ais523> zzo38: yes, based on speed
04:17:27 <ais523> but say there are four Pokémon on the battlefield and their speeds are in the order A, B, C, D
04:17:44 <ais523> now if Pokémon A uses a move to make Pokémon D faster, it could go next if its speed is increased to now be faster than B's
04:18:49 <ais523> whereas under the old rules, Pokémon B and C would move next, then Pokémon D, but the turn afterwards Pokémon D would move sooner
04:19:09 <zzo38> O, OK. Now I know what you mean.
04:21:23 <ais523> the drawback of speed-boosting moves used to be that they did nothing on the turn you used them, and they were balanced accordingly, but now (except in battles with only two Pokémon) there is very little counterplay to them, other than by building a team which would naturally go at the end of the turn order anyway (making the moves redundant)
04:21:35 <ais523> so it's made battles much more matchup-dependent than they used to be
04:22:12 <ais523> and means that many battles end up being decided by guesses made in the Team Preview phase
04:23:33 <zzo38> OK
04:25:24 <ais523> (generation 8 also invented Max Airstream, which is probably the most broken move ever in Pokémon, and is speed-boosting, although oddly it's somehow even more broken in singles, where the changes to turn order calculation have no effect)
04:26:26 <ais523> hmm, we could do with a Pokémon video games version of `card-by-name, I guess, but probably these conversations don't come up often enough for it to be worth the programming effort
04:27:49 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71012&oldid=70793 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+32)
04:28:06 <zzo38> I have thought of a system for custom Pokemon battles, involving various rule customization and time controls customization (the time controls is more general and can be applied to many different games).
04:28:45 <ais523> there are simulators that understand a lot of custom rules already
04:28:50 <ais523> although your rules might not be included
04:30:13 <zzo38> I mentioned to someone about text-based pokemon battle game (that you can connect using telnet or SSH), but they mentioned it is good except Spinda. But, once I looked it up, I can see how it is working, so, I think the solution is that if your pokemon is Spinda, then your opponent is allowed to see all values derived from the personality value (or encryption constant in gen VI).
04:31:50 <zzo38> (If you specify rules that data of opponent's pokemons is visible anyways, then of course it is irrelevant.)
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04:33:59 <ais523> I think at some point Spinda's personality value stopped being visible from its graphics, I forget which generation though
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04:34:18 <ais523> in practice, I don't think I've seen anyone reverse-calculate Spinda's personality value in a competitive battle anyway
04:34:36 <ais523> (it's normally only done to peek at the state of the random number generator)
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04:37:33 <zzo38> I forget which generation they added chess clocks, although I remember once my brother told me. Of course, in a unofficial program, it could allow the rules to customize time controls independently of the generation.
04:38:23 <ais523> zzo38: 5, I believe, although it doesn't work quite the same way as regular chess clocks
04:38:39 <ais523> there are actually /three/ clocks, one of which runs permanently (even when it's neither player's turn) and causes a draw if it runs out
04:39:09 <ais523> and an additional clock which limits how much time you have for each individual move, so that's a fourth clock
04:39:14 <ais523> if it runs out your turn is decided at random
04:40:06 <zzo38> Ah, OK
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04:40:29 <zzo38> So the chess clock is just one of three
04:40:38 <ais523> yes
04:40:45 <ais523> I think the reason the system is so complex is for online tournaments
04:41:16 <ais523> which needed to avoid running out of time for a round even if the players used moves with very long animations every turn (perhaps because they were colluding in an attempt to break the servers)
04:44:00 <zzo38> Could they disable animations? Did they have an option for that?
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04:47:19 <ais523> zzo38: the games have had options to disable animations since gen 1, but oddly, in competitive/link battles the animations are forced to be turned on, ignoring the option
04:52:38 <zzo38> OK
04:53:54 <pikhq> wb kmc
04:54:28 <pikhq> ais523: Frankly that always annoyed me
04:54:36 <pikhq> If I wanted animations off, it should just let me
04:55:33 <zzo38> Yes, I should think so too, at least if both players turn off animations, then it should be turned off.
04:56:10 <zzo38> (Animations should also be forced off if any kind of time controls are specified, I think.)
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05:15:12 <zzo38> I also don't like the rule in Magic: the Gathering that double face cards and meld cards cannot be faced down (rules 711.10 and 712.10); it is easily enough to represent, by placing the checklist card face-down on top or by using opaque card sleeves.
05:59:17 <watermelon3D> ok
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06:52:25 <b_jonas> yep, like I guessed, xkcd's comic today is a tribute to John H. Conway too
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07:38:08 <zzo38> I once dreamt that someone saved the details of a magic trick on their computer, but it saved with a .''' extension which meant that the magic trick was bad.
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08:04:13 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: re "assemble vs has call" => that is the most groanworthy pun that I've read about this pandemic so far
08:04:55 <wib_jonas> int-e: re "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" => in the 7-zip GUI, when you interrupt a compression operation, it asks the question the same way, but the answers are Yes, No, Cancel
08:06:52 <wib_jonas> int-e: "detonating the Sun to erase all evidence of this ever happening" => please merge it with a few other stars so that it's large enough to go supernova, then we'll get those sweet heavy elements as construction material for our civilization
08:11:47 <wib_jonas> ais523: "are there any natural languages where the natural translations of "yes" and "no" start with the same letter?" => try https://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/yesnomaybe.htm
08:12:08 <wib_jonas> Ah, fizzie probably looked at the same one
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08:17:10 <wib_jonas> ais523: re Magic, then you could play Magic games in a homebrew format where the pool of cards is restricted to cards older than a certain cutoff date
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10:24:04 <esowiki> [[TinyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71013&oldid=71011 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link
10:24:40 <wib_jonas> I'm re-reading some old forum posts, and ran into a mention of the angels vs devils game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_problem , which is also due to John H. Conway
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10:48:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Ttml]] to [[TTML]]: fix capitalization
10:48:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:Ttml]] to [[Talk:TTML]]: fix capitalization
10:52:47 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71018&oldid=39935 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
10:54:49 <kspalaiologos> I wonder how inefficient would a mandelbrot fractal viewer be in Malbolge
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11:23:53 <esowiki> [[Uncomment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71019&oldid=32463 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link
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11:48:46 <kspalaiologos> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/rave/src/rave/pass/ComparisonPass.java <- that's how code ends up when you pretend to write in a functional fashion lmao
11:49:33 <wib_jonas> oh no, java generics
11:49:48 <kspalaiologos> oh yes, lack of builtin tuple data typ
11:49:58 <kspalaiologos> and you automagically save on obfuscators
11:50:06 <kspalaiologos> because after writing such code, you don't need one
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12:09:57 <esowiki> [[Version2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71020&oldid=33857 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link
12:15:46 <esowiki> [[Vowels]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71021&oldid=40963 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) fixed title
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12:28:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sinjoro * New user account
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12:30:58 <esowiki> [[Wait]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71022&oldid=30726 * LegionMammal978 * (-13) /* External resources */
12:32:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71023&oldid=70879 * Sinjoro * (+141)
12:34:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71024&oldid=71023 * Sinjoro * (+49)
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12:36:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71025&oldid=71024 * Sinjoro * (+27)
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12:46:47 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71026 * Sinjoro * (+680) First Commit
12:47:45 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71027&oldid=71026 * Sinjoro * (+1)
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12:53:45 <esowiki> [[Wiki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71028&oldid=25347 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) /* External resources */ fixed link
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12:56:27 <tromp> int-e: do you think we can extend the X^V rule to X^V ::= W^V | B^V | <K B^V> ?
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13:06:18 <tromp> actually, that's no good. never mind
13:08:19 <tromp> I noticed that \x. x^2 <K x> could be added to W, but not sure where exactly to add it
13:09:33 <esowiki> [[Worstscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71029&oldid=55333 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
13:19:14 <esowiki> [[XEec]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71030&oldid=44650 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
13:20:32 <tromp> int-e: perhaps extend W^V rule to W^V ::= V | W^V <K W^V> | \v. B^({v} ∪ V) ?
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13:23:37 <esowiki> [[XS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71031&oldid=67243 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) /* External resources */ fixed link
13:26:38 <esowiki> [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71032&oldid=55597 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) fixed link
13:29:20 <int-e> tromp: That would yield (\1 (\1 1)) <K (\1 1)> in B, which terminates.
13:30:55 <tromp> no, it would put that in W
13:31:19 <int-e> oh. hmm.
13:31:23 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71033&oldid=71027 * Sinjoro * (+2699) Created the table of instructions
13:31:55 <tromp> actually, the <> could be replaced by any number of nested <> (including 0)
13:33:51 <tromp> so we cauld have W^V ::= V | W^V K^V | \v. B^({v} ∪ V) and add a rule K^V = K W^V | <K^V>
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13:36:00 <esowiki> [[Ybc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71034&oldid=51853 * LegionMammal978 * (+135) fixed code block
13:39:37 <esowiki> [[Yo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71035&oldid=36273 * LegionMammal978 * (-86) fixed code blocks
13:39:39 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71036&oldid=71033 * Sinjoro * (+272)
13:40:20 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71037&oldid=71036 * Sinjoro * (+0)
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13:52:50 <int-e> tromp: Okay, do it like this then: It puts \(\1 1) (\2) into W.
13:54:03 <tromp> don't see how you get that in W
13:55:36 <int-e> hmm
13:56:32 <int-e> Oh, because I shouldn't have the initial lambda.
14:00:33 <tromp> then \2 makes no sense
14:00:42 <int-e> that's K 1
14:00:56 <int-e> Yes, I have a free variable now.
14:01:13 <tromp> W is set of closed terms?!
14:01:39 <int-e> Yeah I should just stop thinking aloud.
14:02:52 <tromp> conceptually, the extra option for W^V looks ok, since W^V K^V reduces to W^V
14:03:24 <int-e> But you ought to be able to get K^V in front as well, and that'll break things
14:03:48 <int-e> So I don't really believe it. But it's obviously more convoluted than I thought.
14:04:00 <tromp> what do you mean by getting K^V in front?
14:05:06 <tromp> I will make you a believer yet:-)
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14:10:34 <esowiki> [[Universal Lambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71038&oldid=44126 * YamTokTpaFa * (+102) cat!
14:21:08 <int-e> tromp: here we go then: (\x. x (\_. x) x) (\x\_. x x) is in B. (the second \_ is part of a head context)
14:23:14 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71039&oldid=71037 * Sinjoro * (-4)
14:24:46 <tromp> which is the W^V K^V part?
14:25:04 <int-e> ugh
14:25:20 <int-e> (\_. x) is in K W^{x}
14:26:22 <esowiki> [[Universal Lambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71040&oldid=71038 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* External resources */ cat fix
14:27:05 <int-e> You broke the invariant that elements in V will always become bound to values in W^V' for some V'.
14:27:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71041 * LegionMammal978 * (+139) Created page with "An output command might be useful. ~~~~"
14:27:31 <int-e> So I would've been very much surprised if this had worked out.
14:30:26 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71042&oldid=71039 * Sinjoro * (+40)
14:30:44 <esowiki> [[Golden sunrise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71043&oldid=69856 * Hakerh400 * (-31)
14:32:28 <int-e> I should've been quicker to find that example though, those false attempts were embarrassing.
14:37:55 <tromp> thx for counterexample. W K only gives to a W in head position, where I assumed one at top
14:40:06 <tromp> is there a better way to include \x. x^2 <K x> in W ?
14:41:48 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71044&oldid=71042 * Sinjoro * (+0)
14:42:25 <int-e> tromp: not without changing B. (\x. x (x (\z. z (\_. x)))) (\x\_. x x) has a normal form.
14:43:08 <int-e> by changing B I mean, drop all the head context stuff... you'll get a completely different story then, and tricks like these may just work
14:44:49 <tromp> i mean I could add an option to B^V where it can be W^V^2 <K W^V>
14:46:03 <tromp> hmmm, that's no good
14:46:17 <tromp> i mean v^2 <K v> for v in V
14:46:34 <tromp> but i'm trying to get a little more general
14:47:09 <int-e> I understand the desire, but the W/B thing is extremely delicate already. :)
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14:49:24 <kspalaiologos> oh gosh
14:49:36 <kspalaiologos> I made a legit mistake while writing the makefile
14:49:43 <kspalaiologos> pushed it over and it passed CI, so I released it
14:50:01 <kspalaiologos> it turns out, due to my mistake, on "victims" PC, `rm -rf /bin' is executed
14:50:29 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you got that by expanding a shell varible that's undefined, right?
14:50:35 <tromp> hope victim is not running as root:)
14:50:36 <kspalaiologos> yes
14:50:42 <kspalaiologos> tromp, he was
14:51:00 <b_jonas> like, rm -rf ${installprefix}/bin
14:51:10 <kspalaiologos> yup
14:51:11 <b_jonas> and then ${installprefix} is not defined
14:51:20 <kspalaiologos> I patched it now
14:51:26 <kspalaiologos> but meeeeh
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14:54:29 <b_jonas> so how much did it mess up the victim's computer?
14:54:49 <kspalaiologos> he's got some utilities left in /bin somehow
14:54:52 <kspalaiologos> but most of it is gone
14:55:11 <kspalaiologos> I told him to reinstall coreutils using apt
14:55:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71045&oldid=70606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181)
14:59:03 <tromp> so adding v^2 <K v> for v in V in B is no good either, since v can be bound to your \x -> K (x x) ?!
15:00:32 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71046&oldid=70272 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) quote fix, etc
15:05:52 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17684) Created page with "| This language was designed to have minimal errors. | Note: If a command takes an integer or float/double as a parameter, it will try to convert those parameters to integers,..."
15:06:10 <int-e> tromp: yeah.
15:06:21 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71048&oldid=71047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67)
15:07:10 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71049&oldid=70441 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-44) /* Commands */
15:07:51 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sure, but just coreutils is not enough
15:07:57 <kspalaiologos> yeah
15:08:08 <kspalaiologos> I pasted him over a snippet that will reinstall all the packages hes got already
15:08:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: but down in the line that will probably try to run something from /bin during installation
15:09:03 <kspalaiologos> he's got coreutils already
15:09:47 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you need bash and/or dash and probably more
15:09:58 <kspalaiologos> he's got zsh already
15:10:12 <b_jonas> the installer scripts will try to run sh, not zsh
15:10:18 <kspalaiologos> everything is fine by now
15:10:20 <kspalaiologos> symlink
15:10:28 <b_jonas> oh good
15:11:23 <int-e> reminds me of the day I uninstalled libacl from my gentoo system
15:11:50 <int-e> (that broke most of coreutils)
15:12:57 <b_jonas> oh, I recall when I accidentally uninstalled X from the package manager by asking to uninstall what turns out to be a dependency, running startx, and it did nothing with no error or log message. it turns out that the package manager just symlinks X to false if neither Xfree86 or X.org is installed or some such nonsense.
15:13:13 <b_jonas> yes, that was back when XFree86 was an option
15:22:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71050&oldid=71003 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+140)
15:24:45 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71051&oldid=71044 * Sinjoro * (+104)
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15:32:05 <kspalaiologos> damn, xfree's a few years older than me
15:37:22 <b_jonas> well obviously it was a newer version
15:39:44 <kspalaiologos> yep, I presume
15:39:57 <kspalaiologos> but I'm talking about the initial release date
15:40:26 <b_jonas> and it's quite possible that XFree86 wasn't actually available at that time already, but the alternative symlink system was still in place for historical reasons
15:40:44 <b_jonas> I have actually used XFree86 at some point though, back before I knew about X.org either
15:44:37 <fizzie> #esoteric predates X.org.
15:45:01 <fizzie> Assuming Wikipedia's "Initial release: 6 April 2004" is accurate, anyway.
15:45:47 <b_jonas> we should falsify a few more years of back history to #esoteric and HackE?o by the way
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15:46:31 <b_jonas> "Welcome to the international center for esoteric language design, development and deployment, established in 1873."
15:46:47 <b_jonas> the wiki too I guess
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15:55:24 <Taneb> b_jonas: I think the opposite, we should be founded in the future
15:55:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm, that's an interesting option too
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16:02:59 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71052&oldid=71051 * Sinjoro * (+24) /* Powers of 2 */
16:03:53 <kspalaiologos> that's actually amazing to see the traffic on the wiki
16:04:00 <kspalaiologos> and the fact that there are actually 100 connections to this channel
16:04:40 <b_jonas> wow, exactly 100
16:05:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71053&oldid=70997 * Sinjoro * (+17)
16:08:58 <int-e> without fungot too
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16:13:09 <esowiki> [[And]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71054&oldid=70648 * LegionMammal978 * (-9) updated link again
16:13:11 <esowiki> [[Cheers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71055&oldid=70646 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again
16:13:13 <esowiki> [[Duck Duck Goose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71056&oldid=70645 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again
16:13:14 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71057&oldid=70647 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again
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16:14:26 <Taneb> b_jonas: another option is we are established right now
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17:09:35 <kspalaiologos> in all seriousness though
17:09:46 <kspalaiologos> that's a shame some old members left
17:09:53 <Taneb> Eh, people have lives
17:10:21 <kspalaiologos> true
17:22:08 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71058&oldid=71052 * Sinjoro * (+113) added Fibonacci sequence
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17:30:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Willicoder * New user account
17:31:44 <fizzie> Wha, where's fungot?
17:31:51 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71059&oldid=71058 * Sinjoro * (+540)
17:31:54 <fizzie> And how long have we been fungot-deficient.
17:32:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71060&oldid=71025 * Willicoder * (+403)
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17:34:41 <fizzie> fungot: How are you feeling?
17:34:41 <fungot> fizzie: this hasn't been so important in the overall organization and they're thinking about removing lambda in version 3, with scheme48 as some fnord infty
17:35:06 <fizzie> All subsystems nominal, I guess.
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17:56:23 <ais523> luckily HackEso has mostly been picking up the slack
18:17:03 <arseniiv> fungot: as some fnord infty => I’d very like to meet that kind of infty
18:17:03 <fungot> arseniiv: i dropped the libertarian thing when i was using
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18:22:26 <kspalaiologos> fungot, what is a fnord?
18:22:26 <fungot> kspalaiologos: be back in
18:23:10 <kspalaiologos> a, that's something like foo or bar
18:26:33 <fizzie> From a strictly technical sense & for fungot specifically, it's any infrequent word. There's a feature in the language model training to replace all with less than N occurrences with a special "UNK" token, which can generally speaking result in better (in terms of a performance-to-size tradeoff) models for analysis, but of course in synthesis the bot has to say *something* when the UNK token happens to
18:26:34 <fungot> fizzie: julia is forcer's sweetie.). it already uses autotools? is that from
18:26:39 <fizzie> come up.
18:32:10 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71061&oldid=70920 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6)
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18:46:44 <arseniiv> fungot: fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord
18:46:44 <fungot> arseniiv: where a/ b: a-b, fnord, write it. and when i rebooted and tried it again, this time with good cause i need to
18:46:50 <arseniiv> yes!
18:47:01 <arseniiv> I win
18:49:03 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71062&oldid=70983 * CatIsFluffy * (-13) Optimizations
18:51:24 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71063&oldid=71062 * CatIsFluffy * (-2) Someday I will actually fix this before saving changes
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18:55:54 <esowiki> [[Perception]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71064 * Baidicoot * (+452) Created page with "= Perception = This is a WIP (by which I mean 'I am currently trying to see if this language is a duplicate') Esolang where the user percives the language as one that can solv..."
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19:02:21 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71065&oldid=70734 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Resources */ cat add
19:04:37 <esowiki> [[LogicF---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71066&oldid=70708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72)
19:05:37 <esowiki> [[Nybblang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71067&oldid=70096 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* Commands */
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19:06:12 <esowiki> [[Nybblang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71068&oldid=71067 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Turing-Complete Nybblang */ memory is like a stack
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19:09:11 <esowiki> [[ROTfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71069&oldid=70546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126)
19:10:58 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71070&oldid=71059 * Sinjoro * (-10) /* Print Function */
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19:28:32 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71071&oldid=71050 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Infinite cat program */
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19:58:20 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71072&oldid=71012 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Microscript */
19:58:43 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71073&oldid=65647 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+1) /* Truth-machine (3 bytes) */
19:58:53 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71074&oldid=71073 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0) /* Truth-machine (3 bytes) */
19:59:14 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71075&oldid=71074 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0)
20:00:15 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71076&oldid=71075 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Truth-machine (4 bytes) */ Shoot, I forgot this was implicit
20:00:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71077&oldid=71072 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Microscript */
20:10:05 <Sgeo_> Would it be possible to make a simple assembly language that compiles to FRACTRAN?
20:12:43 <zzo38> Maybe.
20:13:59 <ais523> well, based on TCness it's definitely /possible/, the question is more as to how efficient the resulting language is and how direct the compilation is
20:14:46 <ais523> that said, asms for The Waterfall Model seem reasonably easy to write, and there's a more or less direct TWM → Fractran compilation (although the resulting Fractran probably isn't very idiomatic)
20:16:40 <zzo38> I should think to specify names by factors by prime numbers or whatever
20:32:18 <b_jonas> oh btw, this comment mentions J. H. Conway running a fractran program that presumably he wrote => https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/john-conway/#comment-552187
20:32:37 <b_jonas> one that finds prime numbers
20:33:29 <b_jonas> I guess I should link that from the wiki page
20:34:57 <esowiki> [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71078&oldid=62112 * B jonas * (+202) /* External resources */
20:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71079&oldid=71071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+303) /* Examples */
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21:07:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71080&oldid=71079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52)
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