←2020-04-20 2020-04-21 2020-04-22→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:41:06 <esowiki> [[Solo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71279&oldid=68168 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) Example + cats
00:41:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71280&oldid=71265 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* S */ add Solo
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02:49:19 <zzo38> Is there a command in CSS to replace a sequence of text characters with a picture?
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04:21:19 <zzo38> Now the source code of Super ZZT is also available. Super ZZT has some creatures that ZZT doesn't have, but two are unimplemented, and one is only partially implemented (it looks like to me that it is meant to chase the player with a zig zag path, although it tries to use unsigned variables as signed and fails to even update the sign correctly, too)
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06:06:08 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71281&oldid=71267 * OsmineYT * (+18)
06:07:14 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71282&oldid=71281 * OsmineYT * (+0)
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07:10:46 <zzo38> I added into TeXnicard a command to use the external editor to edit user variables (which may be used for such things as notes for the card set). I also started making a card set using TeXnicard now.
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08:30:49 <cpressey> Since we call the numbers 0, 1, 2, ... the natural numbers, I've taken to calling all other numbers, unnatural numbers.
08:31:01 <cpressey> -1 is unnatural.
08:31:06 <cpressey> 0.5 is also unnatural.
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08:42:42 <b_jonas> cpressey: and call (1+i) an unimaginary number
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09:04:58 <rain1> what about a big number nobody commented on yet?
09:20:42 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71283&oldid=71282 * OsmineYT * (+147)
09:20:59 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71284&oldid=71283 * OsmineYT * (-1)
09:22:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jsfunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71285 * OsmineYT * (+239) Created page with "== General discussion == Yeah, I know this is stub, because I don't had enough time to write this article. Maybe this will be changed in the future. --~~~~ duh."
09:23:54 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71286&oldid=68691 * OsmineYT * (+34)
09:24:25 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71287&oldid=71286 * OsmineYT * (+27)
09:24:34 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71288&oldid=71287 * OsmineYT * (+4)
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09:33:23 <esowiki> [[Grid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71289&oldid=70015 * Hakerh400 * (-44) Use internal links for wikipedia articles rather than external references
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10:16:15 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71290&oldid=66469 * Saka * (+53)
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10:43:55 <kspalaiologos> real queston: how constraining is it, when underload strings may be at most 32 bytes lonf
10:44:01 <kspalaiologos> does it make the language unusable or something?
10:44:46 <Taneb> What exactly do you mean by "strings"?
10:45:55 <kspalaiologos> values on the stack are strings
10:46:00 <kspalaiologos> now what if
10:46:14 <kspalaiologos> I limited their length to 32 bytes a string
10:46:18 <kspalaiologos> instead of unlimited bytes
10:46:25 <kspalaiologos> does it break Underload severely?
10:54:22 <myname> is there something that prevents me from implementing my own c-style like strings on there?
10:55:18 <myname> like, if the last byte is not a zero, get the next value from the stack and interpret it as a continuation of the current string
10:55:37 <myname> slight drawback is a maximum of 31 byte overhead per string
11:09:33 <fizzie> Underload is hard enough (well, IMO) anyway, even without attempting to deal with a limitation like that.
11:16:08 <fizzie> A lot of programs contain (...):^ where ... is a substantial chunk of the program, and that involves having ... on the stack. It's not immediately obvious how to translate that to requiring less stack size.
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11:46:49 <kspalaiologos> no I don't mean that
11:46:51 <kspalaiologos> stack is unlimited
11:46:55 <kspalaiologos> but a size of a string is fixed
11:47:08 <kspalaiologos> you can push as many things onto stack as you want
11:47:17 <kspalaiologos> BUT size of a single element can't exceed certain size
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12:01:32 <tromp> int-e: was able to complete a BB(37) search with latest code. got 49 TODOs...
12:07:46 <rain1> wow that's exciting!
12:08:07 <fizzie> kspalaiologos: That's what I meant. If you have a big outer loop, the natural construction is (...this is a long sequence of code, probably more than 32 bytes...):^ and it's not trivial (if it's even possible) to do that in pieces.
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12:31:06 <tromp> i suspect that BB(37) = BB(35) + 2 :-(
12:35:01 <Taneb> What's the worst-case slowdown translating a turing machine into lambda calculus, I wonder?
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13:05:32 <int-e> Taneb: it's basically functional programming... the tape becomes two stacks (cons lists), and the rest is finite control, so it's a constant factor for any fixed TM.
13:06:25 <Taneb> Is it therefore appropriate to expect BB_TM to be proportional to BB_LC?
13:06:34 <int-e> No.
13:06:59 <int-e> The finite control plus two stacks is a vanishingly small fragment of what LC can do.
13:07:21 <int-e> But on the other hand, sizes are not comparable at all either.
13:08:35 <int-e> If you're explicit about the construction you'll find functions f and g (probably polynomial) such that BB_TM(n) <= BB_LC(f(n)) and BB_LC(n) <= BB_TM(g(n)).
13:09:35 <int-e> But those bounds will be very coarse.
13:10:15 <int-e> (Because they'd be obtained by mapping lambda terms to a small fragment of Turing machines, and Turing machines to a small fragment of lambda terms.)
13:16:27 <tromp> f(n) <= 2*n*ceil(log_2(4*n+4))+O(1)
13:18:42 <tromp> g(n) is probably sublinear
13:20:48 <int-e> tromp: Uhm, that's a different BB_LC.
13:21:12 <int-e> (One with input.)
13:22:49 <int-e> The one we're currently studying (more you than I) doesn't have a dense encoding for bitstrings.
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13:27:34 <tromp> so then the 2*n shld be replaced by 28*n
13:27:41 <int-e> It's easy to encode 1 bit in 4-5 bits or 2 bits in 3-7 bits.
13:28:14 <int-e> you can do stuff like 1 (2 (1 (2 3))) for [0,1,0,1].
13:28:44 <tromp> oh, right
13:29:08 <int-e> (4-7, not 3-7, of course)
13:29:46 <int-e> I suppose you can get quite a bit more elaborate than that and get some way below 3.5 bits per bit.
13:30:29 <int-e> > 8/logBase 2 5
13:30:30 <lambdabot> 3.4454124645871445
13:30:51 <int-e> (But base 5 is ugly when talking about bitstrings.)
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13:36:10 <int-e> > (4.5, 5.5/2, 6.5/logBase 2 6, 7.5/3) -- actually we can reverse the meanings of 1 and 2 (or 1..4) to make sure we get an encoding that only uses the average length, even in the worst case.
13:36:13 <lambdabot> (4.5,2.75,2.5145432470245206,2.5)
13:36:28 <int-e> huh.
13:36:40 <int-e> > (4.5, 5.5/2, 7/logBase 2 7, 7.5/3)
13:36:42 <lambdabot> (4.5,2.75,2.493450309756155,2.5)
13:37:05 <int-e> (I misread which base gave the optimal number of bits in this setting)
13:38:04 <int-e> So, 2.5 bits per bit if we encode in base 8. That's... better than expected already.
13:39:24 <int-e> > [(4 + (n-1)/2) / logBase 2 n | n <- [2,4,7,8]]
13:39:27 <lambdabot> [4.5,2.75,2.493450309756155,2.5]
14:03:32 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: my guess is that 32 bytes would be very limiting, but with a much larger constant size you could probably still implement a turing machine
14:03:47 <b_jonas> or a finite control two-stack machine or whatnot
14:04:15 <b_jonas> it's just that each of those elements will be very long because they each contain full a program for that two-stack machine,
14:04:26 <b_jonas> but since you can write a univeral machine for that, the size is effectively constant
14:04:32 <b_jonas> I could be wrong here
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14:07:32 <b_jonas> this would be a rather inefficient means of computation of course, worse than brainfuck
14:07:47 <kspalaiologos> because I thought about implementing underload in Brainfuck
14:07:50 <kspalaiologos> but now, meeeeh
14:08:11 <kspalaiologos> it requires a lot of dynamic memory allocation I can't really simplify this much
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15:13:17 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71291&oldid=71188 * Apollyon094 * (+2)
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15:17:54 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71292&oldid=71291 * Apollyon094 * (-1)
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15:35:41 <rain1> did wolfram discover rule 30
15:44:02 <int-e> oh philosophy
15:44:06 <int-e> it was always there
15:44:09 <Cale> I think that is one thing that is genuinely due to him. He invented the numbering scheme used for the simple 1D cellular automata.
15:46:03 <int-e> yeah I was going to ask about the numbering scheme
15:46:18 <int-e> (and also about who made this study systematic)
15:46:58 <rain1> it blows my mind that nobody enumerated the 1d CAs before
15:47:02 <Cale> In general, Wolfram seems to like taking credit for other people's work though, so it wouldn't really surprise me much to find out that it was someone else.
15:47:05 <rain1> and noticed that rule 30 was interesting
15:47:16 <rain1> yeah that's my reason for asking
15:47:31 <int-e> Well, who knows what people do in their basement (so to speak).
15:50:02 <rain1> > The concept was originally discovered in the 1940s by Stanislaw Ulam and John von Neumann while they were contemporaries at Los Alamos National Laboratory. While studied by some throughout the 1950s and 1960s, it was not until the 1970s and Conway's Game of Life
15:50:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:39: error: parse error on input ‘in’
15:50:55 <Cale> There was a point in time at which if you wanted to know how cellular automata would play out, your best bet would be to get some graph paper and start filling in squares
15:52:00 <rain1> im trying to look into what these 2 folks did on CA first
15:52:01 <int-e> Yeah hard to imagine doing this systematically without at least a matrix dot printer, and preferrably a pixel-oriented monitor.
15:53:33 <int-e> But also the basement thing... it's easy to dismiss concrete cellular automata as a cute hobby that's not worth publishing.
15:57:27 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_cellular_automaton
15:57:41 <rain1> it seems like the original guys were working on 2d CAs, similar to wireworld kind of
15:58:13 <int-e> I imagine the self-replication by simple rules was the driving idea there.
16:01:06 <rain1> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cellular-automata/#BrieHist
16:05:44 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis%E2%80%93Hedlund%E2%80%93Lyndon_theorem is anyone familiar with this?
16:06:52 <b_jonas> rain1: we have an article at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%27s_29-state_cellular_automaton too
16:12:55 <rain1> is anyone reading any good new math or CS books?
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16:31:13 <Taneb> I'm reading some good old maths or CS books (there's a lot of them to work through)
16:32:13 <rain1> what are your favorite ones?
16:33:01 <Taneb> Currently reading Quantum Computation and Quantum Information by Nielsen and Chuang
16:33:09 <rain1> oh yeah that's a good one
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17:47:03 <kritixilithos> what are you reading rain1?
17:47:56 <rain1> nothing right now! I'm trying to find something good
17:48:18 <rain1> I last read a good one about basic particle physics explained via lego
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18:37:08 <kritixilithos> rain1: cool, do you have a link to that?
18:38:30 <kritixilithos> i've started reading these lecture notes on computablity, arithmetical hierarchy, ... https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~fstephan/recursiontheory-pdflatex.pdf, but have been meaning to get back at it sometime
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18:41:50 <rain1> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Particle-Physics-Brick-Ben-Still/dp/184403934X
18:42:38 <rain1> these notes look fun
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19:10:11 <zzo38> I would hope that some of us can make working together on making TeXnicard and on the templates. Even though I would probably write most of the C/SQL/PostScript codes myself, I would hope other people can help too, such as contributing templates, making bug reports and feature requests, examining the way the codes are written in order to complain about it, improving documentation, etc.
19:12:49 <zzo38> I do not know who to ask, really.
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19:30:13 <rain1> https://www.twitch.tv/stephen_wolfram
19:31:40 <dnm> zzo38: TeXnicard?
19:41:06 <zzo38> dnm: It is a program to managing and rendering custom cards for games such as Magic: the Gathering. It is an alternative to Magic Set Editor.
19:41:49 <esowiki> [[FileCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71293&oldid=69675 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) cat adds
19:55:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71294&oldid=71189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24)
19:59:19 <zzo38> Perhaps, I should add a frequently ask question section too.
19:59:33 <zzo38> There is a Fossil repository available at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui
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20:03:25 <dnm> zzo38: Thanks for the link. Just checked out the Fossil site.
20:04:57 <dnm> Among other things, I had never heard of Farbfeld before, so now I know something about that (mostly, that it exists).
20:08:49 <zzo38> The link to Farbfeld Utilities describes the file format, which is simple. Farbfeld can be a useful format to process pictures within pipes; I personally do not use it as an on disk storage format, although the inventor of the format suggested using farbfeld compressed with bzip2 as an on disk storage format.
20:43:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71295&oldid=71245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29)
20:45:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71296&oldid=71294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2384) /* Unnamed language 2 */
20:46:08 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71297&oldid=71296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Unnamed language 2 */
21:24:08 <Taneb> `quote limerick
21:24:11 <HackEso> No output.
21:32:31 <b_jonas> `quote animated
21:32:32 <HackEso> 1107) <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
21:32:33 <b_jonas> unicode
21:32:42 <b_jonas> animated emojis
21:33:14 <b_jonas> or just a blink attribute
21:33:25 <b_jonas> handled by the VGA card
21:34:17 <b_jonas> why do VGA cards even have a mode with blink attribute for text mode? blinking cursor, that I can see, but blinking characters are just annoying
21:34:27 <b_jonas> why'd they build that into hardware?
21:35:22 <b_jonas> I mean, in VGA it's mostly redundant because you could just emulate it by changing palette colors
21:35:25 <b_jonas> but still
21:35:49 <zzo38> The other PC video cards have that too in text mode
21:35:54 <zzo38> It isn't only VGA
21:36:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, but why?
21:36:54 <zzo38> I am not really sure why they put that in, although that function can be disabled.
21:36:58 <kmc> I'm guessing it was less of a "this is super useful" and more of a "we have this leftover attribute bit and this can be implemented with minimal hardware"
21:37:16 <kmc> it could be used for error messages to get the user's attention
21:37:42 <zzo38> Yes, probably. ZZT also uses it for flashy water
21:38:00 <b_jonas> or as decoration in like moves about hacking
21:38:04 <kmc> if the hardware supports blinking cursor then not much extra hardware is required for blinking arbitrary text
21:38:40 <zzo38> Yes, although the CRTC chip they used already supports cursor blinking, and yet they didn't use it, implementing their own instead.
21:38:54 <zzo38> Also, the cursor blinking rate and text blinking rate are different (although they are synchronized).
21:40:35 <kmc> huh
21:40:36 <kmc> okay
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22:30:22 <b_jonas> if the time cube
22:30:27 <b_jonas> `? time cube
22:30:28 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
22:30:43 <b_jonas> teaches that Earth is a cube, then is http://www.rogermwilcox.com/square_earth.html the Time square?
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22:37:37 <b_jonas> ok gn
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22:42:02 <fizzie> . o O (And how's that linked to Times Square?)
23:09:33 <kmc> lol
23:13:15 <int-e> Well, follow a road to Rome, then find the road from Times Square (which also leads to Rome) and traverse it backwards.
23:13:36 <int-e> (universal directions)
23:14:43 <fizzie> `unidecode ⊠
23:14:44 <HackEso> ​[U+22A0 SQUARED TIMES]
23:16:20 <shachaf> i,i MAY YOU LIVE IN N-ARY TIMES OPERATOR
23:20:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh nice
23:47:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71298&oldid=71295 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
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