←2020-04-21 2020-04-22 2020-04-23→ ↑2020 ↑all
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01:47:58 <zzo38> Hello
03:45:48 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71299 * DanielCristofani * (+1691) Created page with "This is a very simple language I designed accidentally. It consists only of regex find-and-replaces with loops; it's meant for banging text files into a different shape, but i..."
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04:05:27 <pikhq> Hi
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04:32:11 <zzo38> Maybe the version control file in TeXnicard should store multiple versions
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07:47:13 <Sgeo> http://www.froup.com/tr/tr.pl?242
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09:13:35 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71300&oldid=71299 * DanielCristofani * (+531)
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09:17:31 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71301&oldid=71300 * DanielCristofani * (+740)
09:20:24 <kspalaiologos> "given two rooted trees, calculate minimal amount of leafs to remove so that the trees are isomorphic" <- is there a smarter solution to that than bruteforce?
09:22:59 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71302&oldid=71280 * DanielCristofani * (+15) /* E */
09:26:47 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71303&oldid=71301 * DanielCristofani * (+0)
09:34:32 <int-e> kspalaiologos: are those trees ordered or unordered?
09:35:13 <kspalaiologos> they are unordered
09:35:55 <int-e> (just clarifying, it may not even make any real difference to hardness)
09:36:17 <kspalaiologos> I've heard that there's a more optimal solution to this problem
09:36:20 <kspalaiologos> but I can't figure it out
09:36:42 <int-e> "more optimal" :-/
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09:38:22 <kspalaiologos> has lower computational complexity
09:40:38 <rain1> hi!
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09:45:22 <esowiki> [[Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71304&oldid=68083 * OsmineYT * (+56)
09:45:35 <int-e> kspalaiologos: but rooted, I hope
09:45:44 <kspalaiologos> yes obviously
09:46:05 <int-e> I suspect this one is actually in P.
09:48:44 <int-e> It's amenable to dynamic programming (in order to figure out the answer for the root, first compute the answer for all pairs of children of the root), with maximum weight bipartite matching to combine those values.
09:49:17 <int-e> (For this purpose, the value that is to be maximized is the number of leafs kept.)
09:52:10 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71305&oldid=71288 * OsmineYT * (+16)
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09:52:59 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71306&oldid=71305 * OsmineYT * (+1)
09:53:26 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71307&oldid=71306 * OsmineYT * (-16)
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09:55:02 <int-e> (Any unpaired children end up with 0 leafs; they are deleted in full. There may well be an off-by-one error in this logic, but essentially it should work like this.)
09:58:15 <kspalaiologos> I've already done the Newick parser
09:59:59 <int-e> Eww, Firefox, why? Why enlarge the location bar when it's focused?
10:12:12 <int-e> Meh. It can be disabled, at least for now, https://lifehacker.com/how-to-disable-firefox-75s-new-address-bar-1842728031
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10:19:02 <int-e> (It's actually kind of impressive just how offensive I find this idea. I feel like they're pushing that thing into my face. But it probably comes from having trained myself to notice and act upon minor visual cues from the UI for decades. Oh and I hate change.)
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10:19:22 <int-e> kspalaiologos: parsing seems to be the easy part :P
10:19:30 <kspalaiologos> yes
10:19:43 <kspalaiologos> I'm essentially in a point where I have the labeled tree's hashmap built
10:19:55 <kspalaiologos> and I think I'm up to something
10:21:50 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71308&oldid=71303 * Keymaker * (+194) Added some categories.
10:30:07 <esowiki> [[Daniel B. Cristofani]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71309&oldid=30550 * DanielCristofani * (+18)
10:37:09 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence perhaps this question is of interest to folks here
10:49:33 <esowiki> [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71310&oldid=67619 * OsmineYT * (+65)
11:07:56 <rain1> I wonder which substrings do not occur
11:08:45 <rain1> or do all substrings occur? but some occur multiple times
11:08:55 <tromp> BB*36) looking mighty impressive on https://oeis.org/A333479
11:17:26 <int-e> how much do you trust those numbers?
11:19:36 <tromp> not with my life, but would be willing to stake some money on them
11:20:30 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71311&oldid=71308 * DanielCristofani * (+18)
11:21:23 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71312&oldid=71311 * DanielCristofani * (-4)
11:23:33 <tromp> so about as much as i trust numbers in https://oeis.org/A094777
11:24:44 <int-e> Hmm.
11:32:05 <int-e> tromp: Hmm, on the OEIS page, maybe you could mention the 5n+6 thing?
11:33:45 <int-e> tromp: And about the Go enumeration, do you have the number(s) of edge states somewhere?
11:37:14 <int-e> Ah, the paper has it. 363,324,268,018
11:37:28 <tromp> yes, also mentioned on my webpage
11:38:27 <tromp> sure, i can add 5n+6. and links to the BB files
11:41:40 <esowiki> [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71313&oldid=51805 * IFcoltransG * (+1432) Added a few more control flow examples and the Concepts category
11:48:08 <spruit11> Hip, hip, hooray! My little paper is on arXiv.
12:12:57 <esowiki> [[Modulo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71314 * OsmineYT * (+183) Created page with "'''Modulo''' is esolang invented and created by [[User:OsmineYT]]. All commands must start with "%" (modulo, percent) sign. == Syntax == Every Modulo command starts with modu..."
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12:39:18 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71315&oldid=71307 * OsmineYT * (+95)
12:45:10 <int-e> . o O ( There are three kinds of people, those who believe in the law of excluded middle and those who don't. )
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14:00:23 <spruit11> Hmm... True, false, neither. Technically correct?
14:06:13 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71316 * Baidicoot * (+2337) Created page with "= FarTooGeneral = FarTooGeneral (FTG) is an esoteric 'execution architecture' created by [[/wiki/User:Baidicoot|User:Baidicoot]] during the COVID-19 pandemic as a means of not..."
14:10:46 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71317&oldid=71316 * Baidicoot * (+199) /* Execution */
14:11:22 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71318&oldid=71317 * Baidicoot * (+13) /* Example Data Structures */
14:32:12 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71319&oldid=70544 * Orby * (+85)
14:34:49 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71320&oldid=71318 * Baidicoot * (+1169)
14:36:33 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71321&oldid=71320 * Baidicoot * (+133) /* Example Program */
14:37:12 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71322&oldid=71321 * Baidicoot * (-25) /* Example Program */
14:38:57 <esowiki> [[Disan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71323&oldid=65501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) cats
14:39:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71324&oldid=71302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* D */
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14:56:06 <esowiki> [[ASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71325&oldid=70435 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Examples */ fix link
14:56:38 <esowiki> [[ASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71326&oldid=71325 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Examples */ pipe trick
14:58:41 <tromp> int-e: the following appears to be looping, but is still a bit of a challenge to prove:
14:58:43 <tromp> -- TODO: (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\\2 (3 1))))
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16:42:56 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas about the change set format and version control file format of TeXnicard? I thought that perhaps the version control file should store multiple versions, just writing the new version at the end after the previous version. Two new fields can be added in the header, one points to the most recent key frame (since there is no need to read previous frames), and other one points to the end of the file.
16:43:33 <zzo38> (You need one to point to the end of the file in case the data is partially written at the end, so that it is possible to recover from it.)
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17:46:48 <esowiki> [[Gummy Bear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71327 * Hakerh400 * (+15940) +[[Gummy Bear]]
17:46:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71328&oldid=71324 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Gummy Bear]]
17:46:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71329&oldid=71249 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Gummy Bear]]
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18:32:15 <imode> I recall someone in here playing ifMUD.
18:32:18 <imode> zzo38: was it you?
18:32:25 <zzo38> imode: Yes.
18:32:50 <imode> how do permissions/ownership principles work in ifMUD? if a person designs an object and others use it, how malicious can it be?
18:33:21 <zzo38> imode: It can teleport the user, but not much else.
18:34:20 <imode> I see. can one user's object interact with another user's object? is there a dedicated permissions system?
18:34:59 <zzo38> No, there is no permission system, unfortunately.
18:35:07 <imode> interesting.
18:35:27 <zzo38> (Well, there is a very limited one: If an object has the "examinable" flag set, then other users, and programs by other users, can read that object's fields; otherwise they are unreadable.)
18:36:24 <zzo38> There are also listening exits, which it would seem can be triggered by programs, so this can be done to activate another object remotely by a program even if you do not own it.
18:37:25 <zzo38> I wanted a more sophisticated permission system, where you can define group/other permissions (similar to UNIX permissions) on field names and on prefixes of field names (where the "group" is actually a channel), although this is not currently implemented.
18:37:47 <oren> why do all putty-based terminal software hate diacricits
18:38:31 <oren> does anyone know of a terminal software that doesn't hate diacritics?
18:38:36 <imode> zzo38: how easy/difficult would you say it'd be to implement something like this purely in ifMUD coe?
18:38:39 <imode> s/coe/code
18:40:01 <zzo38> imode: The permissions system I mentioned I think would have to be done in Perl, although there are many things that can be done in ifMUD code; you can look at some of my object codes (most of them are set examinable) in order to see how I have done some of them
18:40:47 <imode> is ifMUD extensible via perl?
18:40:58 <imode> huh.
18:41:26 <zzo38> It is written in Perl, although only the server operator can alter its code (although apparently it is possible to alter it while it is running; I am not sure how that works, though)
18:42:06 <imode> the reason I ask is that I'm debating between including a permissions system for my project or allowing "world builders" to add it via plugins (along with other pieces of code).
18:42:30 <imode> right now all I do is hand you a postfix lang, a key-value db and a chat system.
18:42:46 <imode> and a way to import procedures via a "package manager".
18:44:13 <zzo38> I think that a permission system should be added, more than what ifMUD currently has (which is only the "examinable" flag, which isn't much)
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19:09:49 <zzo38> Perhaps the prefix-based permissions like I mentioned might do.
19:13:52 <imode> thanks for the info. I think I've decided to have a very, very basic set of permissions that are applicable regardless of intent. owners of "servers" can determine who can use what procedures and primitives, and create roles for people that join.
19:16:25 <zzo38> OK
19:35:44 <arseniiv> imode: oh you are making a multi-world-something-thing?
19:37:53 <arseniiv> and using that queue-based language we’ve discussed a handful of times? how had it evolved, did you add something else to threading?
19:45:09 <imode> arseniiv: yup! I'm taking a majority of the language and turning it into a multi-"world" multi-user environment.
19:45:24 <imode> I scrapped the concurrency features.
19:45:48 <imode> but I added things like lists, strings, floats, local and global (across all procedures and persistent) variables.
19:47:14 <imode> if you make a user account, you can join "worlds" other users have created.
19:48:10 <imode> each of these worlds constitutes a key-value database, a set of procedures, and a set of groups. there's also a package manager and a central package repository for importing new features into your world.
19:48:30 <arseniiv> that’s interesting. I’ll help you test this thing if you’d be interesting and I would be able to set up the things it would need
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19:49:41 <imode> I'd love that! I plan on launching a private alpha to interested parties to test things out. eventually, I plan on having world ownership be a subscription service.
19:51:40 <imode> tiered by resources, essentially. if you want a larger call depth, more key-value entries, longer programs and larger scratch space, you can have that.
19:53:57 <arseniiv> imode: BTW how do you see (hm I forgot the accurate term) a “named-field spreadsheet” thing where if X is defined using Y and Y’s definition changes, X’s value would change automatically (and if X depends on itself, the system would strongly criticize you and not do anything)? It may or may not be useful in such setting. Certainly not for all definitions, but maybe for some specially marked ones
19:55:01 <imode> I'd see that as a dataflow graph.
19:55:32 <imode> if you change a cell, all cells that depend on that cell would have to update, and all cells that depend on the newly updated cells would have to update, so on and so forth.
19:55:51 <arseniiv> (in any case you can lambdabot me if I won’t be around, I’m lazy to logread for a long long time now)
19:56:04 <arseniiv> yeah that’s how I understand that thing is implemented
19:56:15 <imode> there's not much else you can do.
19:56:15 <arseniiv> and you check for cycles when a definition changes
19:56:19 <imode> yup.
19:57:12 <arseniiv> it can be made into a its own kind of storage if it’s useful, but I didn’t experiment with this before, only read about it
19:59:32 <zzo38> I am not so interested in what imode is making unless perhaps the source code will be freely available and fully documented, and can be used with a telnet client. I also have no interest in joining a private alpha, regardless of the conditions.
20:01:49 <imode> well, if it helps, I plan on releasing a self-hostable version in the future that's FOSS.
20:02:38 <zzo38> Yes, that can help.
20:02:47 <imode> gotta make money somehow in the interrim.
20:03:18 <zzo38> Yes, OK, and even if the self-hostable FOSS version is available, you can still charge money for using on your server too, anyways, I think
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20:05:04 <imode> correct. typically there's a good stretch between when something is available and when the product is open sourced. the start-up costs involved are made back by the exclusivity in the first couple of months, and then after that you have an existing user base that's already present on your infra.
20:05:30 <zzo38> OK
20:05:46 <imode> so people who really wanna dig into the code and self-host will be happy, but I can still pay my engineers and offer convenience.
20:11:38 <Taneb> Today I was pondering about what monads in the poset of sets and the subset relation, considered as a category, look like
20:11:58 <Taneb> Then the friend I was talking to googled and apparently they're closure operators, which are apparently a thing
20:14:26 <Taneb> I love it when things are things
20:15:45 <arseniiv> and comonads there are… damn, I forgot the part where I read about functions on set algebras being the other way. They had a name for that too
20:17:09 <Taneb> Coclosure operator?
20:19:42 <arseniiv> Taneb: they had a usual name too, I think that was a chapter in Pierce, on recursive types, maybe regarding to the difference between μ and ν. That required a more general theory which I’ll try to find now what it was there about
20:20:12 <Taneb> Kernel operators?
20:26:53 <zzo38> TeXnicard seem not the only alternative to Magic Set Editor; I also found something called PrincessEdit, although I cannot seem to find any documentation about how to use it.
20:26:58 <arseniiv> ah, I found that part. There, several properties of a subset X ⊂ U, given a function F: P(U) → P(U) (P is powerset), are defined: X is F-closed if X ⊂ F(X), is F-consistent if F(X) ⊂ X (and a fixed point if F(X) = X, but that’s not interesting). So that’s not too related to closure operators but if it somehow is, co-operators may be called “consistency operators”, hm
20:30:03 <arseniiv> ah, I see. For F being a closure operator at least requires any X ⊂ U be F-closed
20:30:30 <arseniiv> so F being a “consistency operator” should require any X be F-consistent
20:31:08 <arseniiv> as of monotonicity and idempotency of F in this case, I don’t know
20:33:34 <arseniiv> ah there is a simpler axiomatization: X ⊂ F(Y) iff F(X) ⊂ F(Y). Now it’s obvious how to dualize that! F(X) ⊂ Y iff F(X) ⊂ F(Y). And also we can plainly see monadic bind and comonadic extend here too, yeah
20:34:05 <arseniiv> in Kleisli or something something form
20:34:25 <arseniiv> I don’t know what I’m saying here
20:35:09 <arseniiv> ah, yes, they say on en.wikipedia the dual is called a kernel operator indeed! Or also an interior operator or a dual closure
20:36:53 <arseniiv> also when axiomatizing closure via monotonicity, idempotency and “any X is F-closed”, they say the dual has both first and second unchanged
20:40:39 <b_jonas> oh jesus, pointless topolocy
20:40:46 <b_jonas> this channel can get weird about mathematics
20:42:11 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71330&oldid=71297 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2408) /* Unnamed language 2 */
20:43:38 <arseniiv> b_jonas: topology is pointless, resistance is futile. We are fixed point
20:53:08 <esowiki> [[Phile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3276) Created page with "'''Phile''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== Each line in Phile is one of the following: OPEN ''fname''; WRITE ''fname'' ''value''; OVERWRITE '..."
20:54:56 <esowiki> [[Phile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71332&oldid=71331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99)
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20:57:31 <arseniiv> does a word for cold (an illness) in your languages have something in common not with being cold/chilled/frozen?
20:59:52 <fizzie> We typically call the common cold "flunssa", which as a word is obviously related to influenza/flu, which we call "influenssa".
21:00:16 <fizzie> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flunssa
21:00:48 <arseniiv> fizzie: interesting!
21:01:04 <arseniiv> I was afraid I caught a cold and I noted once more that in Russian it related to being in the cold toom roughly it translates as “a state related to having been in the cold earlier”
21:01:15 <arseniiv> (if it translates at all)
21:02:30 <fizzie> Finnish does also have a cold-related synonym "vilustuminen", which is roughly "becoming cold" except not quite.
21:02:32 <arseniiv> s/toom/too,
21:02:53 <arseniiv> yeah, the details!
21:03:42 <fizzie> That is, "vilu" is specifically the sensation of feeling cold, not so much a low temperature in an absolute sense.
21:04:27 <fizzie> (The latter would be "kylmä".)
21:05:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/RandomNameGenerator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71333 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1208) Created page with "This program will output ten random letter combinations with a length of 5 to 8 characters. <span style="color: blue;">function</span> gen(n) { <span style="color: blue;..."
21:05:34 <arseniiv> I like distinctions like these in languages! So varying
21:06:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71334&oldid=71151 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143)
21:06:37 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71335&oldid=71334 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Random name generator */
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21:45:59 <orbitaldecay> Do any of you fine esolangers know of an existing Forth that's based on SK calculus?
21:46:20 <orbitaldecay> I wrote one, but I don't want to add an entry to the wiki if it's already something that has been done.
21:46:29 <orbitaldecay> https://code.forder.cc/esolang/skiforth
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21:49:54 <arseniiv> orbitaldecay: nice
21:50:24 <orbitaldecay> Thank you! I think it's pretty neat. I'm excited about the idea. Did you look at boolean.skf?
21:50:38 <orbitaldecay> It seems to be possible to bootstrap a normal forth implementation using sk calculus
21:50:57 <orbitaldecay> that file is the beginning of that
21:50:58 <imode> provided you can simulate things like RAM.
21:51:13 <orbitaldecay> yeah, that gets tricky
21:51:37 <orbitaldecay> I mean, theoretically possible, but probably a really slow way to go
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21:52:58 <orbitaldecay> I'll probably eventually introduce an integer type to speed up arithmetic, but I want to avoid doing that sort of thing as much as possible
21:54:26 <b_jonas> a forth based on SK combinator calculus? that sounds like contradiction
21:54:31 <b_jonas> do you have a link?
21:54:54 <imode> https://code.forder.cc/esolang/skiforth previously posted.
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22:07:18 <orbitaldecay> Don't get too excited, its basically unlambda in post-fix notation with the forth : ; syntax
22:07:29 <arseniiv> orbitaldecay: Did you look at boolean.skf? => yeah
22:08:09 <orbitaldecay> arseniiv: cool, I want to write a standard lib to build up the language like a regular forth
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22:08:41 <orbitaldecay> I was surprised at how quickly I was able to get away from using function application
22:17:35 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: ok, I wouldn't call that either unlambda or forth
22:26:11 <orbitaldecay> b_jonas: I'm actually glad to hear you say that. I was trying to make something sufficiently different from both.
22:28:53 <orbitaldecay> The way the tokens are parsed and the : ; is very forth, hence the name. But under the hood it's totally different obviously.
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