←2020-05-03 2020-05-04 2020-05-05→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:00:15 <int-e> Charlie0: hmm, have you tried editing the whole page rather than a section?
00:01:10 <int-e> (I'm guessing what the "(section)" part in that message means.)
00:01:17 <Charlie0> int-e I did not, so I tried that, and it still fails
00:02:17 <int-e> Though, hmm, the instructions say to edit the section.
00:03:44 <int-e> Annoyingly this is hard to test. All I can really say is that we've had a successful introduction today so it should work in principle.
00:04:09 <int-e> (And repeat the instructions, but that's awfully redundant.)
00:07:34 <Charlie0> You know, this isn't worth fixing a typo. Bye
00:07:36 -!- Charlie0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:59 <int-e> Hrm just as I was trying to figure out what the checks actually are...
00:15:22 <int-e> Oh we can actually see the edit in question... it also changed "Amicloud" to "Amibutt" elsewhere in the page... this applies to *all* of Charlie0's attempts.
00:15:25 <int-e> Odd.
00:18:06 <zzo38> Then that is why it doesn't works, I suppose
00:18:53 <int-e> Yes, obviously... it counts as a removal (of the line being changed) and those are rejected. But how does this happen every single time?
00:19:54 <pikhq> Cloud-to-Butt extension.
00:20:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
00:21:11 <int-e> pikhq: What a stupid idea.
00:21:21 <int-e> Anyway... this is why, mystery solved. :)
00:21:29 <pikhq> It's literally a joke extension, so hey :)
00:22:00 <int-e> Well the joke just got real and \harmful.
00:22:53 <int-e> I mean, it's kind of okay to do this to normal page contents, but doing it text fields that will be submitted is a terrible idea.
00:23:19 <pikhq> Not wrong
00:24:08 <int-e> https://github.com/panicsteve/cloud-to-butt/issues/55
00:24:27 <int-e> (including the observation that it's not *this* particular extension)
00:27:14 <int-e> I guess the solution for self-diagnosis by Charlie0 would've been to do a "show changes". It would've looked odd (showing a line as changed with no visible difference) but it would've been some clue at least.
00:33:24 <b_jonas> ah, so that's the typo fix
00:34:00 <b_jonas> he wanted to change a typoed butt
00:34:02 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
00:43:41 -!- Antebrationist has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:43:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71670&oldid=71660 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+644)
01:04:38 <zseri> orbitaldecay: brainfuck with indirection, implemented in Rust: https://gitlab.ytrizja.de/zseri/befinde
01:13:54 <shachaf> int-e: It's funny that the (section) edit actually made this more likely to go through.
01:14:01 <shachaf> But I guess not more likely enough.
01:28:51 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
01:32:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Charlie0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71671 * Int-e * (+429) introduction instructions
01:32:59 <int-e> (Maybe they can see that. It can hardly hurt.)
01:33:20 <int-e> . o O ( Now who wants to go through all wiki edits and look for changes of cloud to butt? )
01:34:03 <int-e> shachaf: I'm beginning to think of this as a feature... except for the terrible diagnostics.
01:39:51 <int-e> Did anybody else notice that we lost all interest in Intcode once the AoC event was over?
01:40:05 <int-e> Guess it wasn't all that exciting as a programming language really.
01:41:57 <shachaf> I didn't ever look at it in the first place.
01:42:10 <shachaf> I did write a permutations iterator and now I'm wondering whether there's a better way.
01:47:01 <int-e> Hmm, is it January again?
01:51:41 <b_jonas> `datei
01:51:42 <HackEso> 2020-05-04 01:51:42.272 +0000 UTC May 4 Monday 2020-W19-1
01:51:52 <b_jonas> int-e: ^ no, still month --05
01:53:34 <int-e> `? password
01:53:36 <HackEso> The password of the month is starving for attention.
01:58:15 <shachaf> `dowg password
01:58:17 <HackEso> 12323:2020-04-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is starving for attention. \ 12318:2020-03-01 <arseniïv> learn The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with \ 12310:2020-02-12 <shachäf> undo 12307 \ 12309:2020-02-12 <int-̈e> revert \ 12308:2020-02-12 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is always set on the 12th of the month. \ 12307:2020-02-01 <Hooloovö0> learn The password
02:10:51 <zzo38> Put a hidden field that says "This field is meant to detect invertent tampering such as changing 'cloud' to 'butt'" and then display an error message if that message has been tampered with.
02:13:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:Voltage2007]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71672&oldid=70184 * Fwander * (-91) Replaced content with "Thanks!"
02:15:09 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
02:15:22 <shachaf> Why?
02:47:16 <int-e> zzo38: seems rather pointless; there must be dozens of such plugins for different replacements...
02:49:16 <int-e> (Yes, this partly contradicts what I wrote about considering this a feature. I *am* happy that it caught this particular add-on, but obviously that was due to sheer luck.)
02:51:05 <int-e> So... maybe a more proper check for this kind of add-on would have a hidden input with the whole page to be edited along with the textarea, and check that it's submitted without modifications. That seems to be a lot of overhead though...
02:51:33 <zzo38> Yes, that seems too much of overhead
02:52:28 <int-e> And it's easy to imagine that an add-on would do those edits randomly and then all those measures will be rather futile.
02:52:38 <int-e> So... not worth bothering with.
02:52:44 <zzo38> O, OK.
03:00:26 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:02:08 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
03:19:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
03:40:04 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:42:04 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
04:18:42 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
04:42:29 -!- tromp has joined.
04:47:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
05:00:34 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71673&oldid=71174 * YamTokTpaFa * (+7) /* text2pxem.pl */ Recopied and repasted the program name from official blog
05:02:08 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
05:03:06 <Antebrationist> zzo38, I am halfway through the ALU for the Minsky Machine.
05:03:28 <zzo38> OK.
05:03:45 <Antebrationist> And I finished the initialisation component.
05:03:58 <Antebrationist> It's all very modular.
05:04:29 <Antebrationist> Initialisation module, data reading module, Addition ALU, Subtraction ALU, character jumper.
05:05:16 <Antebrationist> And I finally have a name - Eldritch.
05:06:07 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:07:55 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:09:26 <zzo38> I am trying to solve a Magic: the Gathering puzzle at this time.
05:09:39 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
05:09:45 <Antebrationist> Okay... MTG is Turing complete.
05:09:52 <zzo38> Yes, I am aware of that.
05:10:01 <Antebrationist> It's cool, isn
05:10:11 <Antebrationist> 't it, that a simple card game can be TC.
05:10:52 <zzo38> I also wanted to see if someone can represent Goldbach's Conjecture or Fermat's Last Theorem as a Magic: the Gathering puzzle.
05:11:07 <Antebrationist> Wow.
05:11:55 <Antebrationist> FLT should be fairly trivial, but Goldbach's Conjecture, while theoretically possible is insanely difficult.
05:12:35 <zzo38> I haven't invented my own new puzzles recently, although I have invented some puzzles some time ago, and I believe they still work with the current rules (although I mentioned what version of the rules they use anyways, just in case).
05:13:43 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
05:14:20 -!- iovoid has joined.
05:14:25 <zzo38> I have also started making up my own set of Magic: the Gathering cards. But, how should collector numbers be determined?
05:14:29 -!- moony has joined.
05:20:53 <zzo38> Someone else asked if a Magic: the Gathering puzzle will be made up like Mitrofanov's chess study. I didn't know about until they asked, and then I looked it up on Wikipedia and found it.
05:31:30 -!- Antebrationist44 has joined.
05:33:49 -!- Antebrationist has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:36:32 -!- tromp has joined.
05:41:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:49:15 <jix> shachaf: I guess so :D
05:50:16 <shachaf> Maybe I should've asked you all my questions about SAT solvers back when I was trying to figure things out.
05:50:24 <shachaf> At the moment my CDCL solver is on hold.
05:50:54 <shachaf> Last time I was working on it I needed to figure out how to do clause deletion.
05:51:24 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71674 * RocketRace * (+8) Initial page
05:52:58 <jix> shachaf: I've implemented the multi-tier strategy from https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-24318-4_23 and AFAIK most solvers converged on a variation of that
05:54:19 <shachaf> I was just misreading the output of MiniSAT so I thought clause deletion was much less important than it actually was.
05:56:10 <shachaf> Where is the multi-tier strategy described?
05:57:02 -!- tromp has joined.
05:57:18 <shachaf> Is that the chapter by Oh?
06:01:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
06:04:17 -!- tromp has joined.
06:05:32 -!- rain1 has joined.
06:22:06 <jix> shachaf: yeah
06:34:49 -!- Antebrationist44 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:45:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: collector numbers are assigned sequentially in the set after sorting it first by whether the card appears in randomized booster packs, then by border color (the groups are IIRC devoid, w, u, b, r, g, hybrid, gold, artifact, land, but I'm not certain about the details) then English name
06:46:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can use existing sets as an example
06:49:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know what you mentioned, but want to know the other details too
06:50:32 <b_jonas> int-e: we should put control characters including lone lf and crlf, and some invalid utf-8 and other traps into that page :)
07:19:33 <zzo38> Do you like Mitrofanov's chess study?
07:22:20 <shachaf> jix: Oh, I just noticed you linked to the specific paper.
07:22:40 <shachaf> I just clicked on the PDF link and it took me to the entire book so I spent some time searching it for tiers.
07:38:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:43:43 <jix> shachaf: just remembered that I also wrote a short summary of what I did: https://jix.one/refactoring-varisat-4-heuristics/#clause-database-reduction
07:45:56 <jix> (that also explains a few things that Oh's paper probably takes for granted)
07:57:15 <shachaf> Which things?
07:58:07 <shachaf> I see, the glue level is the smallest number of total decisions that's been needed to reach a conflict or unit in the clause? Or something along those lines.
07:58:19 <shachaf> I should probably start by implementing a really simple heuristic for deletion and then jam it up later.
08:03:06 <jix> yeah glue level and clause activities ... I'm not sure into how much detail Oh's paper goes been some time since I read it
08:04:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:10:26 <shachaf> OK. I'll look at this more closely soon.
08:10:28 <shachaf> Thanks!
08:29:26 -!- tromp has joined.
09:00:02 <rain1> https://oeis.org/A000001
09:01:28 <shachaf> https://oeis.org/A182105
09:02:22 <jix> https://oeis.org/A003075
09:04:20 <shachaf> Too bad so few terms are given.
09:06:35 <jix> computing two more was hard enough ;)
09:06:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you know how names are sorted?
09:06:47 <jix> took me half a year of fulltime work essentially
09:07:06 <shachaf> jix: Oh, you're cited there.
09:07:12 <shachaf> Good OEIS entry.
09:07:25 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:07:54 <jix> still need to write the paper on how I did it, but can't find time :(
09:08:14 -!- kevinalh has joined.
09:08:14 <shachaf> Oh, it's recent too.
09:08:17 <shachaf> Neato.
09:14:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. Wizards is unlikeley to have published those internal procedures, and I haven't tried to reverse engineer them.
09:21:51 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
09:24:45 <zzo38> I have a "InnerBorder" column to specify the border, although if it is null, then it will be determined automatically. I should add a procedure into the major template to calculate this; it can then be called by different rendering templates to decide which border to render, and may also be usable by the major template too, in order to decide collector numbers, I suppose.
09:26:48 <zzo38> The values of the "ConvManaCost" and "ColorIdentity" columns are automatically set by the "auto." procedure (meant to be called by the user), and that procedure is also meant to assign collector numbers (I can use the ROW_NUMBER window function), although that part isn't implemented yet.
09:30:09 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:30:37 -!- tromp has joined.
09:31:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
09:32:07 -!- kevinalh has joined.
09:41:57 <b_jonas> But you can override that for silly stuff like Transguild Courier
09:42:42 <zzo38> Can you describe how that works?
09:42:43 -!- LKoen has joined.
09:43:15 <zzo38> I do intend to probably allow the card database to contain a user variable which defines how collector numbers are assigned; if it exists, it will use that instead of the default.
09:44:27 <zzo38> (You can also just avoid using the auto. procedure if you want to assign converted mana costs, color identities, and collector numbers manually.)
09:47:53 <zzo38> I looked at Transguild Courier, and if you mean the frame, then you can already override the frame.
09:53:01 <zzo38> O, it look like Transguild Courier is grouped with the artifacts even though it has a gold frame. I also seem to remember that MSE ignores the frame and uses only the mana cost, although I don't know how accurate that is.
10:40:33 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving).
11:05:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I'm talking about computing the Courier's color and frame. The stupid errata where he had a 5-color color indicator (not representable in print because of the stupid decision that a color indicator is one bullet even for two colors) has been reverted (for a reprint),
11:05:43 -!- arseniiv has joined.
11:06:30 <b_jonas> so the Courier is now omnicolored only because of his characteristic-changing abil. You can't guess his color autom'lly from his mana cost.
11:07:15 <b_jonas> That plus there are cards with devoid.
11:31:45 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
11:35:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:35:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
11:48:51 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:55:57 <tromp> zzo83: I love Mitrofanov's study!
11:58:02 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:58:30 -!- atslash has joined.
12:04:24 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71675&oldid=71208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* String indexing */
12:10:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:12:23 -!- sprocklem has joined.
12:16:34 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:17:30 -!- sprocklem has joined.
12:30:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71676&oldid=71670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+175) /* 2 */
13:25:24 -!- rain1 has joined.
13:31:50 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71677&oldid=71676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Interpreter in HGFTSNOA */
14:16:02 -!- zseri has joined.
14:21:24 <orbitaldecay> zseri: hey, just sent you an e-mail
14:45:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71678&oldid=71662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Languages */
14:46:44 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71679&oldid=71677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Interpreter in {something ?} */
15:17:30 <zseri> orbitaldecay, you've send me an OpenPGP-encrypted mail (which I was able to decrypt), but didn't send an pubkey to encrypt, and I wasn't able to fetch your key from the keyservers, and I wasn't able to fetch a *currently valid* key via WKD, hm. (all keys retrievable via WKD were expired)
15:18:35 <orbitaldecay> zseri: I did not intend to do that. I'm using protonmail. They must have automatically encrypted it for some reason?
15:19:29 <orbitaldecay> First time I've encountered that
15:21:48 <zseri> I found out that 'indirect BF' would probably require either BigNums or relative addressing (changed it to relative addressing for now). BF seems to have a direct equivalent in indirect BF, but that only works if the initial indirection is zero. Maybe it would be a good idea to add some operation which is able to deterministically and always reset the indirection to zero...
15:21:57 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71680 * Orby * (+1606) Creating reference bf
15:23:43 <zseri> basically, there are two variants: unbounded cells with absolute addressing; and bounded cells with relative addressing...
15:28:22 <orbitaldecay> zseri: well, I think the model should use unbounded tape and unbounded positive cells with absolute addressing. Implementation can just use a tape of 65536 16-bit unsigned cells, or whatevs. But I think absolute addressing is important.
15:29:56 <orbitaldecay> I can show you the snippets of an implementation in C that I wrote that might make it clearer what I mean
15:30:38 <orbitaldecay> https://paste.forder.cc/ufowonijej.cs
15:30:58 <orbitaldecay> here's the pseudocode
15:33:11 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71681&oldid=71680 * Zseri * (+54)
15:33:45 <orbitaldecay> Cool
15:34:36 <orbitaldecay> I switched to the *, & syntax because I'm really interested in [*] and I think writing [{] looks really strange
15:36:31 <zseri> relative addressing makes writing programs more complicated, but makes writing interpreters and compilers easier, and practically the pointer doesn't "jump back" to 0 with every indirection on a pre-filled cell (=0), but instead just stays there...
15:37:41 <zseri> maybe it would be possible to build a compiler that transforms programs from one form to the other, which would be really non-trivial to do manually...
15:38:25 <orbitaldecay> I prefer the absolute addressing model, but if you're interested in relative addressing by all means explore it and write about it on the wiki page
15:38:43 <orbitaldecay> Converting between the two could be really hard
15:40:23 <orbitaldecay> A really interesting implementation detail is what happens when you modify a cell that is part of the indirection chain
15:41:20 <zseri> (about converting) yep, but possible as long as no I/O is involved. Would probably require a execution or simulation of the whole thing, tho....
15:41:25 <orbitaldecay> e.g. tape is 1 2 3 0, indirection is 4, data pointer is 0, what does < do?
15:42:10 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71682&oldid=69821 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Survey */ + Unary and rearange
15:43:23 <zseri> it would probably set cell 0 = 0, then the selected cell would stay the same... Or have I messed up the indirection count?
15:43:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71683&oldid=71679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-830) /* 2 */
15:43:56 <orbitaldecay> no, I agree
15:44:08 <esowiki> [[Regimin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71684 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1434) Created page with "'''Regimin''' is a minimal 2D Turing-complete esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Program format== The program is expected to be a perfect square. Whitespace is ign..."
15:44:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71685&oldid=71661 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* R */ + [[Regimin]]
15:44:53 <orbitaldecay> but ensuring that the interpreter does that correctly is tricky
15:45:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71686&oldid=71678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Languages */
15:45:39 <zseri> it can be archieved by caching the pointer before accessing/modifying the cell.
15:46:52 <orbitaldecay> I think so, I think I've also handled that behavior correctly in the snippet I posted
16:06:59 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
16:07:50 <rain1> hello
16:08:12 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:08:34 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:19:16 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
16:20:12 -!- iovoid has joined.
16:20:22 -!- moony has joined.
16:35:12 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71687 * Zseri * (+2166) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Befinde |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:zseri]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |typesys=static |memsys=tape-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |cla..."
16:35:34 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71688&oldid=71687 * Zseri * (+0)
16:36:09 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71689&oldid=71688 * Zseri * (+0)
16:36:52 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71690&oldid=71685 * Zseri * (+14) /* B */ +Befinde
16:37:09 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71691&oldid=71689 * Zseri * (+2)
16:46:26 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71692&oldid=71691 * Zseri * (+37)
16:48:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:51:57 -!- craigo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:55:10 -!- imode has joined.
16:59:51 -!- orbitaldecay has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:00:09 -!- orbitaldecay has joined.
17:08:16 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71693&oldid=71692 * Zseri * (+227) /* BF translation */ alternative BF translation
17:30:45 <zzo38> b_jonas: I have actually already thought of devoid and "~ is [colors]" abilities, but only if they are the first ability of the card. Although I think a color indicator is better for that particular use anyways. The frame can already be overridden anyways, although it does affect color identity (which is easier to compute when a color indicator is used instead).
17:37:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: first ability only? could work. Valiant Changeling for some reason has a self type changing ability as non-first ability -- I don't know why they ordered it that way, since that ability acts in all zones
17:37:41 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/33f11dfdacc8b9d2 You can see here how color identity is computed. Color indicators (entered as part of the type line) are considered, although abilities currently aren't considered.
17:39:02 <b_jonas> besides devoid cards and Transguild Courier, I think the only card with a characteristic-changing ability that changes its color is Ghostfire
17:39:39 <zzo38> And, actually, considering abilities other than the first probably wouldn't be too difficult to do, anyways.
17:41:02 <b_jonas> Evermind, Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate, Living End, and the future sight Pacts are errataed to have color indicators
17:42:06 -!- opticnerve has joined.
17:43:48 <zzo38> Anyways, I am intending this mainly for custom cards, although custom sets can include reprints of official cards too.
17:45:23 <b_jonas> sure, these are existing examples
17:45:40 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
17:45:52 -!- tromp has joined.
17:46:13 <zzo38> Yes, it is good to know, though.
17:47:37 <orbitaldecay> Here's an interesting puzzle. Is &brainfuck tc using only []*& ?
17:47:45 <zzo38> Did you see the file I linked? If there is a mistake in it, then hopefully you can tell me what mistake you found.
17:55:31 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
17:56:59 <Sgeo_> Tcl and Elixir are the same language, change my mind.
17:57:45 <Sgeo_> They both use immutable values, but have units of mutability that cannot be garbage collected.
17:57:45 <zzo38> I don't know much about that.
17:58:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:58:31 <pikhq> I don't really know Elixir well enough to say.
17:59:55 <Sgeo_> Erlang?
18:01:44 <zseri> orbitaldecay: I don't think so, because you need at least one non-zero cell to navigate.
18:03:43 <orbitaldecay> *> is sufficient to emulate 3 star programmer
18:04:26 <orbitaldecay> no, I guess you need a loop too
18:04:29 <orbitaldecay> so []*>
18:15:21 -!- kevinalh has joined.
18:25:52 <zseri> It would be quite interesting to implement an 3SP interpreter including the output extension in &bf (easier) or befinde (harder bc relative addressing)...
18:26:27 <orbitaldecay> Does 3SP halt when dereferencing 0?
18:26:28 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:27:30 <orbitaldecay> what's the halting condition?
18:33:34 <zseri> I would think the halting condition would be something similiar to: no cell changed and no output was produced, both in the last cycle
18:33:50 <zseri> because that means nothing can change anymore.
18:35:02 <zseri> e.g. second cell must be even, all cells should be hashed or such... the translation should reserve some bookkeeping memory for that...
18:35:51 <zseri> It would be cool to write higher level programs in it, or at least have a compiler that transforms higher-level programs into indirect BF...
18:36:38 <orbitaldecay> &bf and befinde should be easy to compile to, 3sp is some next level shit
18:37:12 <orbitaldecay> I have no idea how to do anything constructive in 3sp
18:37:30 <orbitaldecay> I don't think it's even known if it's tc
18:40:41 <zseri> would be cool to compile 3SP -> indirect BF, tho.
18:43:20 <zseri> 1. read number from input 2. select cell 3. apply indirection 4. '>' 5. undo indirection ... the difficult parts are: reserve memory for a hash or parity sum of the other cells and calculate that...
18:44:50 <orbitaldecay> I don't think "no change" is the halting condition. Won't the increment guarantee that there's always a change?
18:47:22 <orbitaldecay> Another language that is probably easy to emulate in &bf and befinde is cyclic tag
18:57:37 <orbitaldecay> Another interesting thought: in &bf < isn't really necessary if there are infinitely many zeros on the tape because you can [>]* to start at the begining of the tape again
18:58:08 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:03:43 -!- tromp has joined.
19:05:16 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71694&oldid=71599 * Orby * (+71)
19:07:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:08:37 <zzo38> Do you think this regular expression is suitable for finding characteristic defining abilities which define the color of the card? (^|\n\n)(\~|This [a-z]+) is( (and )?(white|blue|black|red|green|all colors),?)*\.(\n\n|$)
19:09:00 <zzo38> (other than devoid)
19:09:42 <zzo38> O, I forgot "colorless"
19:14:32 -!- tromp has joined.
19:29:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:35:20 -!- kevinalh has joined.
19:38:16 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71695&oldid=71681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* See also */
19:38:40 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71696&oldid=71693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* See also */
19:46:39 -!- tromp has joined.
19:55:16 -!- PSDW has joined.
19:57:55 <PSDW> [ 52 ^ 34
19:57:55 <j-bot> PSDW: 2.20858e58
19:58:16 <int-e> > 52^34
19:58:19 <lambdabot> 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
19:58:58 -!- PSDW has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:00:16 <b_jonas> `python3 -eprint(float(52)**34, "==", 52**34)
20:00:18 <HackEso> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python3 [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
20:00:21 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(float(52)**34, "==", 52**34)
20:00:23 <HackEso> 2.2085827895139817e+58 == 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
20:01:23 <int-e> I imagine 52.0 does the trick as well.
20:01:29 <b_jonas> sure
20:01:36 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(52.0**34, "==", 52**34)
20:01:37 <HackEso> 2.2085827895139817e+58 == 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
20:02:21 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71697&oldid=71695 * Orby * (+94) Adding reference implementation
20:07:41 -!- PsDw has joined.
20:11:48 -!- PsDw has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:13:14 -!- psdw has joined.
20:15:27 <zseri> orbitaldecay: befinde has a trivial way to return to the start: [<]; I think *[<]& would be sufficient to let the current cell point at zero; equivalent to 'get me to zero' of (your code in &bf) in Befinde would be *[&>*]
20:17:47 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71698&oldid=71696 * Zseri * (+145) +Patterns
20:18:16 <orbitaldecay> yeah, &bf has a similar construction: wrap your program like "*> program &", then any time inside the program you want to reset the data pointer just do &[*<&]*
20:18:31 <orbitaldecay> it basically memory maps the data pointer to 0
20:21:21 <zseri> In my implementation (and befinde is optimized to be easy to implement) mapping the data pointer even simplified the implementation and made the behavoir more consistent.
20:23:32 <orbitaldecay> yeah, I can see how that would be
20:24:03 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:24:48 <orbitaldecay> I think your thought of removing indirection from [ and ] is interesting
20:24:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:25:56 <zseri> doesn't make much of a difference, but it is more consistent with the rest of the commands, because no other command has such implicit indirection.
20:26:51 <orbitaldecay> yeah
20:27:01 <zseri> hm, is there a way to reset the indirection back to zero, without invoking UB or crashing the interpreter?
20:27:25 <orbitaldecay> not after [*]
20:28:31 <orbitaldecay> but there's a way of thinking about indirect bf as not needing & at all
20:29:00 <orbitaldecay> you could say * replaces the data pointer with the value of the current cell
20:29:05 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71699&oldid=71698 * Zseri * (+15) /* Useful patterns */
20:29:48 <orbitaldecay> I think there are bf variants that have this command
20:30:33 <orbitaldecay> I think there are a lot of ways of thinking of *>[] as tc
20:30:50 <zseri> but every invocation of that command would make the control flow more difficult, because you could accidentially modify a cell that is part of the dereference chain...
20:31:46 <orbitaldecay> no, I mean eliminate the concept of the chain completely. Instead of having indirection levels, just have * copy the value of the current cell to the data pointer.
20:32:01 <orbitaldecay> no way to reverse it
20:32:29 <orbitaldecay> in some ways this concept is cleaner, or at least easier to implement, but in other ways it's not as nice conceptually
20:33:28 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71700&oldid=71699 * Zseri * (-18) /* Useful patterns */
20:33:31 <orbitaldecay> symbolic brainfuck has this
20:33:50 <zseri> hm.
20:34:56 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71701&oldid=71697 * Orby * (+25)
20:35:27 <zseri> symbolic bf also has the opposite (something roughly equivalent to &), but without the chaining.
20:35:47 <orbitaldecay> yeah, unfortunately they're not actually inverses of each other in symbolic bf
20:36:04 -!- tromp has joined.
20:36:12 <orbitaldecay> *& in symbolic bf doesn't actually restore the original state
20:37:10 <orbitaldecay> I wanted a bf variant with reference and dereference where the operators were actually inverses. If you change the looping construct in &bf to match the looping construct in Reversible BF, then &bf is reversible, too
20:37:45 <orbitaldecay> that's not true of symbolic bf
20:40:02 <orbitaldecay> befinde can also be made to be reversible in the same way
20:41:00 <orbitaldecay> just patch up the looping construct, then to reverse a program just reverse the string replacing [ with ], ] with [, & with *, * with &, > with <, and < with >
20:41:27 <orbitaldecay> very nice property
20:44:40 <zseri> are you sure about [ and ] ? I don't think simple string replacing in the way you described would be enough. You need to keep the branching information. And the indirection makes a correct implementation of the parts which depend on the raw value of a cell more difficult...
20:44:52 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
20:45:09 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
20:46:43 <Antebrationist> Finished subtraction logic unit and ALU, halfway through conditionals/
20:46:53 <orbitaldecay> that's why you need to change the behavior of the loop. Enter on non-zero, loop on zero instead of Enter on non-zero, loop on non-zero.
20:48:52 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:54:35 <Antebrationist> zzo38?
20:55:06 <Antebrationist> I think I'm nearly ready to publish it to esolangs.org, do you have any tips on formatting or the like?
20:56:35 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay, does &brainfuck have I/O?
20:57:18 -!- opticnerve has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:57:39 -!- tromp has joined.
21:02:57 <orbitaldecay> Nope, up to the implementation but not required
21:03:09 <Antebrationist> Okay.
21:03:28 -!- psdw has quit (Quit: psdw).
21:05:31 <zzo38> Antebrationist: You can read the MediaWiki documentation if you need to know about formatting
21:05:48 <Antebrationist> Thanks, could I have a link to that?
21:07:54 <zzo38> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Formatting
21:08:12 <Antebrationist> Thanks.
21:10:03 <Antebrationist> What is the codeblock?
21:10:49 <Antebrationist> Is it <code></code>
21:11:30 <zzo38> You can add a space at the beginning of each line, is one way
21:11:59 <Antebrationist> Okay.
21:16:09 <fizzie> Hm, I wonder if I should enable the SyntaxHighlight extension. It's been bundled with MediaWiki for quite a while now.
21:16:14 <fizzie> I guess most of our code blocks aren't in any generally known language though. But it allows automated line numbering and highlighting, which might be sometimes useful.
21:17:43 <zzo38> I think not, because I think that such a thing can be done by the user (I also wrote a specification for doing that).
21:29:42 <zzo38> I thought of a idea: Each player chooses a creature, and then each of those creatures gains flanking until end of turn.
21:30:02 <zzo38> (This could also be used with shadow.)
21:37:31 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:44:20 -!- Antebrationist has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:52:31 <moony> zzo38: poke
21:52:44 <moony> you have any advice on getting a working assembler for the VAX?
21:52:53 <zzo38> Unfortunately, I don't know.
21:52:56 <moony> (I've been trying to get 4.3BSD installed in SIMH, but it doesn't seem to like me)
21:53:04 <zzo38> (I have never programmed in VAX)
21:53:07 <moony> aw
22:21:11 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
22:23:21 <zzo38> Now I fixed it so that it detects abilities such as "~ is all colors"
22:44:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:57:29 -!- orbitaldecay has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1).
22:58:13 -!- bob1 has joined.
22:58:18 -!- bob1 has changed nick to orbitaldecay.
22:58:21 -!- LKoen has joined.
23:21:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:34:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
23:35:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:37:35 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
23:47:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71702&oldid=71683 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76)
23:51:26 -!- orbitaldecay has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1).
23:52:27 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
23:57:38 <Antebrationist> Is a machine comprised of an infinite number of finite-state automata Turing Complete?
23:58:01 <Antebrationist> I'm thinking an infinite cellular automata of sorts.
←2020-05-03 2020-05-04 2020-05-05→ ↑2020 ↑all