←2020-05-02 2020-05-03 2020-05-04→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:13:04 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
00:13:10 <Antebrationist> This is my usual nickname.
00:13:50 <Antebrationist> I was called "train" on here earlier, after my esolang, but I think my normal name will cause less difficulties.
00:14:51 -!- laerling has joined.
00:15:18 <zzo38> OK
00:16:08 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:16:45 -!- laerling has joined.
00:22:44 <Antebrationist> Oh zzo38, I have fully planned out the minsky machine and started to build it.
00:24:32 -!- laerling has quit (Changing host).
00:24:32 -!- laerling has joined.
00:39:00 <zzo38> OK
00:46:00 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71644&oldid=71640 * EvilMuffinHa * (+972)
00:46:48 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71645&oldid=71644 * EvilMuffinHa * (+154)
00:47:16 <Antebrationist> What does esowiki do?
00:47:21 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71646&oldid=71645 * EvilMuffinHa * (-20)
00:47:50 <imode> says who changed what in the wiki.
00:48:28 <Antebrationist> So, its like an edit tracker.
00:48:35 <imode> yuh.
00:48:43 <shachaf> `5 w
00:48:46 <HackEso> 1/2:tetrapleur//tetrapleur is the new name of quadrilaterals. \ spore//spore <n> stores its input in tmp/spout and displays the nth line (default first). For a version considering irc line lengths, see sport. See also `spam. \ gey//I know nothing about Gey, sir. \ english channel//If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland. \ hppavilion[42]//hppavilion[42] is the awesomest person you will ever meet. Much aw
00:48:48 <shachaf> `n
00:48:49 <HackEso> 2/2:esomer than oerjan.
00:48:55 <shachaf> `5
00:48:57 <HackEso> 1/2:457) <ais523> (Enigma is two games; one is solving Enigma puzzles, the other is working out how to represent things as Enigma puzzles, preferably with the minimal amount of lua and player-hidden information possible) \ 1093) <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity \ 1231) <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more? \ 425) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... b
00:49:01 <shachaf> `n
00:49:02 <HackEso> 2/2:reakout? \ 982) <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell.
00:49:29 <int-e> `spam
00:49:30 <HackEso> 1/2:457) <ais523> (Enigma is two games; one is solving Enigma puzzles, the other is working out how to represent things as Enigma puzzles, preferably with the minimal amount of lua and player-hidden information possible) \ 1093) <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity \ 1231) <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more? \ 425) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... b
00:49:55 <Antebrationist> What?
00:49:56 <int-e> (What was `spam good for again?)
00:50:13 <shachaf> `` ls -ld ../bin/spam ../bin/n
00:50:17 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 4 Jul 8 2017 ../bin/n -> spam \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 206 Nov 16 21:37 ../bin/spam
00:50:26 <int-e> Antebrationist: this channel has quite a few bots, some more noisy than others.
00:50:30 <shachaf> spam was just the original name for n before it was shortened to one letter.
00:50:30 <int-e> shachaf: Ah, thanks.
00:50:43 <int-e> shachaf: So the issue here is that `n loops.
00:50:52 <shachaf> `cbt n
00:50:52 <HackEso> line="${1-$(cat $HACKENV/tmp/spline)}"; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' $HACKENV/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}{p;q}" $HACKENV/tmp/spout; echo "$((line<len?line+1:1))" > $HACKENV/tmp/spline
00:51:12 <shachaf> Maybe that's an issue?
00:51:14 <int-e> `? hackeso
00:51:15 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
00:51:16 <shachaf> It was intentional at the time.
00:52:24 <shachaf> OK, this API issue is kind of annoying. This program gives you a path, and what is normally a basename as an offset into that path.
00:52:26 <int-e> Antebrationist: Anyway, esowiki is useful... a) it's interesting to see what topics are currently hot on the wiki b) it enables more timely reactions to spam
00:52:46 <Antebrationist> Yeah. Agreed. Especially on b
00:52:55 <shachaf> The problem is, what it actually gives you is also supposed to be useful for openat(parent_dir_fd, ...)
00:53:12 <shachaf> That's almost the same as a basename except that at the root you want to use AT_FDCWD and a full path instead.
00:53:18 <int-e> Antebrationist: HackEso is more of a swiss army knife (it's a user mode linux sandbox and has grown a rich set of commands, most of questionable use, over time)
00:53:24 <shachaf> What's the solution? Should it give you a basename each time?
00:55:15 <Antebrationist> Ah... That makes sense.
00:56:15 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71647&oldid=71646 * EvilMuffinHa * (+383)
01:01:33 <int-e> Antebrationist: oh and fungot is a chatterbox
01:01:33 <fungot> int-e: am i right? :) imagine if the contents of these fields.
01:01:51 <shachaf> `5 w
01:01:53 <HackEso> 1/1:success//If at first you don't succeed, you fail. \ gazspaczo//gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz \ tio//TIO is Try It Online!, <https://tio.run/>, a web-based interpreter for over 600 languages, including hundreds of esolangs. \ ginorst//Ginorst is eht Aillpr fo Dgoo Iikw Aaeegmmnnt. \ usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton.
01:02:32 <Antebrationist> Can anybody edit the HackEso to give it commands?
01:02:39 <Antebrationist> Because that seems like a very bad idea.
01:03:42 <shachaf> Only people who are morally pure can.
01:04:00 <shachaf> If you are destined for hell HackEso ignores your commands.
01:04:39 <Antebrationist> Good.
01:08:42 <Antebrationist> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nothing is weird.
01:08:58 <int-e> Nothing is weird.
01:09:08 <Antebrationist> Lol.
01:10:02 <shachaf> `? sorting
01:10:08 <HackEso> sorting? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:10:31 <shachaf> `dowg ginorst
01:10:33 <HackEso> 10889:2017-05-13 <oerjän> slwd ginorst//s,dg,Dg, \ 10888:2017-05-13 <oerjän> slwd ginorst//s,ai,Ai,;s,ii,Ii,;s,aa,Aa, \ 6636:2016-02-07 <oerjän> learn Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
01:11:04 <Antebrationist> What constitutes "morally pure" or "destined for hell"?
01:12:05 <shachaf> Please consult the holy book for more information.
01:12:27 <Antebrationist> The holy book?
01:15:25 <int-e> Antebrationist: "Nothing" is brilliant, it's the pinnacle of declarative programming.
01:15:35 <Antebrationist> Ah.
01:15:48 <int-e> . o O ( I hereby declare the program to be finished. )
01:16:10 <Antebrationist> That's amusing.
01:16:39 <pikhq> `ls
01:16:40 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
01:17:12 <shachaf> What's with these ridiculous names?
01:17:19 <shachaf> spline? spout? sport?
01:17:21 <shachaf> Come on.
01:17:23 <pikhq> From here, I believe thou can infer the appropriate holy book to consult.
01:17:54 <Antebrationist> Oh, so the character `[linux command] does the job?
01:18:20 <int-e> our spam comes with advanced interpolation and still spouts nonsense.
01:18:25 <pikhq> Not that I will be consulting it, seeing as I live as a blasphemous heathen to each and every religion that there is. 🙃
01:18:35 <Antebrationist> ^
01:19:11 <shachaf> Perhaps the holy book can be listed by the command `list
01:19:12 <int-e> shachaf: I have no explanation for "sport" though.
01:19:23 <shachaf> What about spore?
01:19:36 -!- Antebrationist has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:21:47 <int-e> `` rm *.gz # both asmbf archives, surely the one unpacked one is enough
01:21:48 <HackEso> No output.
01:23:20 <int-e> shachaf: a more pertinent question may be... can't we stuff those files somewhere less visible...
01:23:44 <int-e> `ls -a
01:23:45 <HackEso> ​. \ .. \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
01:25:47 <shachaf> int-e: When these things were written they were in tmp/
01:25:58 <shachaf> Not my fault that the current directory was set to tmp later.
01:26:33 <int-e> Yeah, I know.
01:26:50 <int-e> But maybe those files should move with the times :P
01:27:22 <shachaf> Maybe the working directory shouldn't be tmp
01:27:32 <int-e> `pwd
01:27:33 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/tmp
01:28:00 <int-e> But first we'd have to agree on a less visible default temp location. Maybe just a hidden subdirectory here?
01:28:17 <int-e> `url
01:28:18 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
01:29:55 <b_jonas> what's the problem with the temp files?
01:30:13 <int-e> they show up in `ls
01:30:39 <int-e> now that $HACKENV/tmp is the default working directory
01:31:03 <b_jonas> meh
01:31:22 <int-e> It's not a big deal, more of a blemish.
01:33:55 <shachaf> `? this
01:33:56 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
01:34:20 <int-e> One could just change the file names to .spline and .spout
01:34:27 <shachaf> Oh no.
01:34:42 <int-e> `cwlprits this
01:34:44 <HackEso> int-̈e oerjän olsnër
01:34:58 <int-e> Yeah I thought I probably added the last bit.
01:36:08 <shachaf> Did I ever mention the time I was talking to a coworker and they said they knew one person who used Gopher?
01:36:22 <shachaf> And then they talked about how that person would always ask "do you like this?".
01:36:34 <pikhq> lmao that's amazing
01:36:50 <int-e> Hah.
01:37:03 <int-e> A simple matter of zzoology.
01:37:58 <shachaf> Hmm.
01:38:06 <shachaf> I should get back to my SAT solver one day.
01:38:16 <shachaf> I don't really know how to do clause deletion nicely.
01:40:18 <shachaf> Also, I have a question about iterators.
01:40:39 <shachaf> I like this iterator style: Iterator it = thing_start(); while (thing_next(&it)) { ... }
01:40:57 <shachaf> Where ... might use it.value or something.
01:41:36 <shachaf> The question is, does this require the type to have more values than the classic style of iteration?
01:42:16 <shachaf> For example with "for (int i = 0; i < n; i++)", the value of i goes between 0 and n, so there are a total of n+1 value.
01:43:21 <shachaf> I guess the first question I should ask is, how would you do simple iteration like that in this style? Starting at a negative number or storing an extra boolean seems scow.
01:45:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:45:49 <shachaf> This specific case doesn't matter much, but it seems kind of annoying to give more complicated iterators an "unstarted" start which I sometimes end up doing.
01:45:56 <shachaf> state
01:47:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:50:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:51:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:00:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
02:06:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:29:56 <int-e> shachaf: What about a standard NULL-terminated linked list?
02:32:19 <shachaf> Yes, that's another case that's similar.
02:32:51 <shachaf> You have n+1 total states for your pointer including the final null. Really this is a better example probably.
02:33:19 <int-e> for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) is amenable to the starting at -1 trick, and then it fits the pattern you want.
02:33:42 <int-e> But for linked lists you don't get a -1 that easily.
02:33:53 <shachaf> And also for pointers.
02:34:21 <shachaf> An array with n values has n+1 total pointers, &a[0] to &a[n], but &a[-1] is undefined behavior in C (and reasonably so).
02:34:28 <int-e> Well, for pointers you could argue that it's really a stupid limitation of C.
02:34:37 <shachaf> Maybe...
02:34:46 <shachaf> Anyway the linked list example is better. What do you do?
02:35:21 <int-e> I suppose you make the iterator look like a list element without a value?
02:35:29 <shachaf> You could add an extra "unstarted" state: struct ListIter { Node *node; bool started; };
02:35:50 <int-e> (I vaguely recall that Knuth has various list head tricks of that sort... I forgot the details.)
02:35:58 <shachaf> Then you can write write ListIter list_start(Node *node) { return (ListIter){.node = node, .started = false}; }
02:36:41 <int-e> *I* would probably not cram linked lists into that iterator style.
02:36:57 <shachaf> I mean, it's unnecessary, certainly.
02:37:05 <shachaf> You can just iterate manually and it works fine.
02:37:16 <shachaf> But I'm trying to figure out how to make it not horrible in simple cases.
02:37:28 <int-e> "not horrible"
02:37:38 <int-e> you're always so opinionated
02:37:47 <shachaf> bool list_next(ListIter *iter) { if (iter->started) { iter->node = iter->node->next; } else { iter->started = true; } return iter->node != 0; }
02:37:59 <shachaf> OK, how to make it elegant rather than mildly annoying.
02:39:48 <shachaf> I don't like this way very much. {.node = 0, .started = true} is the same as {.node = 0, .started = false}
02:39:55 <shachaf> Another option:
02:40:05 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:40:07 <int-e> Well, my problem with this is... how is the compiler supposed to get rid of the bool and produce the right code (which is the normal for (node *i = begin; i; i = i -> next) ...)
02:40:27 <int-e> (don't ask me why I put spaces around the ->... too much Haskell, I suppose)
02:41:16 <shachaf> Well, really I want this style to work for more complicated kinds of iteration, where I think you have the same problem.
02:41:30 <int-e> Also the simple truth is that I'm so used to the three-part iteration that I don't even find it annoying.
02:41:39 <shachaf> But probably if you inline _next the control flow will be pretty simple?
02:41:44 <shachaf> Let's see, does this work?
02:41:49 <shachaf> struct ListIter { Node *node; Node *next; };
02:42:52 <int-e> (And the real improvement is to make the iterator manipulation implicit. "for (x: list) { ... }")
02:43:39 <shachaf> ListIter list_start(Node *node) { return (ListIter){.node = node}; }
02:44:00 <int-e> sure that isn't .next?
02:44:09 <shachaf> You're right, it's .next
02:44:38 <shachaf> bool list_next(ListIter *it) { it->node = it->next; if (it->node) { it->next = node->next; return true; } return false; }
02:44:44 <int-e> I suppose that works and might be amenable to compiler optimization
02:45:26 <int-e> Looks a bit like SSA style code.
02:46:21 <zzo38> Glulx has a built-in command for dealing with linked lists. I have used linked lists in C too though, as well as Glulx.
02:48:28 <zzo38> I found a implementation of vi for 6502, but it isn't for Famicom (yet), although Famicom keyboard doesn't have any ASCII characters beyond 95 anyways (although nothing stops you from displaying them).
02:49:02 <imode> vi for the 6502? color me interested.
02:49:11 <imode> vim for the 6502 would be an accomplishment.
02:50:53 <zzo38> There is http://vi65.sourceforge.net/ but unfortunately not for Famicom, and I have a Famicom (although not the keyboard for it, nor a cartridge to load my own software in)
02:51:24 <imode> could probably be ported, aye?
02:52:17 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so.
02:53:25 <zzo38> Unfortunately, no emulator I know of supports separated disk images, even though I said that would be a better feature to have.
02:56:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HTV04 * New user account
03:07:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71648&oldid=71629 * HTV04 * (+321) /* Introductions */
03:08:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71649&oldid=69926 * HTV04 * (+104) Added my optimizing compiler for SmileBASIC 4.
03:09:14 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71650&oldid=71649 * HTV04 * (+3) Fixed typo
03:18:42 <zzo38> ;; Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent which is attached to another permanent ;; Enchanted permanent has totem armor and cumulative upkeep {1}.
04:40:23 <shachaf> `5 w
04:40:26 <HackEso> 1/2:ronald reagan//Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union. \ snow//Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it. \ structural subtyping//Not to be confused with substructural typing. \ madness//mad
04:40:32 <shachaf> `n
04:40:33 <HackEso> 2/2:ness lies thataway. \ rincewind//Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
04:41:04 <shachaf> `? mad
04:41:05 <HackEso> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
04:44:52 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:13:16 * moony completely forgot to work on his VAX emulator today ):
05:13:48 <zzo38> Now will you do it, then?
05:15:35 * pikhq wishes she could still focus on projects like that
05:15:40 <pikhq> A VAX emulator sounds neat
05:34:07 <moony> zzo38: it's midnight
05:34:14 <moony> I am planning to go to bed :P
05:34:38 <moony> Maybe could add some instructions to the instr table but that's about it
05:35:10 <pikhq> It's also the weekend
05:35:27 <pikhq> Mind, you may have plans in the morning.
05:35:36 <pikhq> Sunday morning plans are not that uncommon, I suppose.
05:36:07 <zzo38> Some people go to church on Sunday, but now is not the time to do that, with these virus
05:36:11 <moony> I was planning to support a pseudo-64bit extension as a non-DEC-compliant feature flag, could go add those instr IDs
05:36:19 <shachaf> So a range iterator would look like struct It { int cur, end, value; };
05:36:38 <pikhq> Some churches have been doing video services for their congregation, which seems like a reasonable compromise.
05:36:42 <shachaf> It start(int end) { return (It){.end = end}; }
05:37:13 <moony> #[cfg(feature = "64bit")]
05:37:16 <moony> ADDQ2 = 0xC0FD,
05:37:18 <moony> this is gonna be repeated a lot
05:37:24 <pikhq> Not that I'm a follower of any organized religions myself, but hey, some people are.
05:37:31 <pikhq> 🤷🏻‍♀️
05:37:51 <zzo38> OK
05:38:16 <shachaf> It next(It *it) { if (it->cur >= it->end) return false; it->value = it->cur; it->cur++; return true; }
05:41:49 <shachaf> Can you translate between the two styles?
05:43:40 <shachaf> Aha.
06:13:00 -!- tromp has joined.
06:17:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:18:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71651&oldid=8186 * IFcoltransG * (+243) /* Binary lambda calculus example */ new section
06:31:29 -!- rain1 has joined.
06:33:51 <zzo38> Has anyone tried to play Scrabble with JavaScript reserved words worth triple?
06:34:58 <myname> what
06:35:19 <myname> that seems a bit... arbitrary
06:35:32 <zzo38> I think it was mentioned once in xkcd
07:00:49 <zzo38> Maybe I should add a command into TeXnicard for defining your own SQL collations, one use of it can be for the rarity of cards in Magic: the Gathering
07:01:55 -!- tromp has joined.
07:10:33 -!- j-bot has joined.
07:33:37 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:43:49 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
07:45:19 -!- sprocklem has joined.
07:55:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
07:56:01 -!- sprocklem has joined.
08:11:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:14:13 <shachaf> FireFly: HireFly
08:33:50 -!- LKoen has joined.
08:53:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:54:23 -!- Sgeo has joined.
09:16:47 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: The bacteria inside Neil Armstrong were the first non-human life to land on the moon. And Neil Armstrong was their space suit.).
09:17:10 -!- grumble has joined.
11:00:58 -!- tromp has quit.
11:03:28 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
11:17:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:25:43 -!- LKoen has joined.
11:31:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
11:33:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:33:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
11:53:18 -!- tromp has joined.
12:06:46 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71652&oldid=71425 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* binodu */ fix title
12:07:29 -!- BWBellairs has quit (Quit: Quit).
12:09:07 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71653&oldid=71647 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* See also */ cat
12:09:18 <esowiki> [[Rhoam Ultimate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71654&oldid=71638 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* See Also */ cats
12:09:30 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71655&oldid=71639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* See Also */ cats
12:10:14 -!- BWBellairs has joined.
12:14:35 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:14:58 <esowiki> [[Number Factory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71656&oldid=54026 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Computational Class */ link
12:22:33 -!- tromp has joined.
13:24:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:29:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Factory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71657&oldid=56204 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) unsigned
14:05:19 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
14:07:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:29:52 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
14:48:31 <orbitaldecay> morning all
14:48:44 -!- imode has joined.
15:02:41 -!- craigo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:05:58 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:20:05 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:21:53 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
15:35:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:40:41 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
15:43:42 -!- kevinalh has joined.
15:53:04 -!- Cale has joined.
16:13:06 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:13:14 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:31:27 -!- tromp has joined.
17:03:17 <zzo38> Do you like this idea?
17:33:56 -!- kspalaiologos has joined.
17:41:52 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:43:23 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
17:45:32 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:56:55 -!- tromp has joined.
18:05:17 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:07:25 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:10:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:11:24 -!- kevinalh has joined.
18:20:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71658&oldid=71626 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2186) /* 2 */
18:28:54 -!- rain1 has joined.
18:29:11 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3442) Created page with "'''FROM HERE TO THERE''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== Each line has the following syntax (lines can be separated by <code>"\n", "\r\n", "\n ",..."
18:29:15 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71660&oldid=71658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2410) /* 2 */
18:30:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71661&oldid=71642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* F */ + [[FROM HERE TO THERE]]
18:31:24 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71662&oldid=71579 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Languages */
18:31:27 -!- tromp has joined.
18:32:38 -!- PSDW has joined.
18:32:43 -!- PSDW has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:32:52 -!- PSDW has joined.
18:34:17 <PSDW> [ 7 2 3 * 1 8 902345
18:34:17 <j-bot> PSDW: 7 16 2707035
18:34:28 <PSDW> 1234567890 ^ 12345678990
18:34:40 <PSDW> [ quit
18:34:40 <j-bot> PSDW: |value error: quit
18:34:54 <PSDW> [ 1234567890 ^ 12345678990
18:34:54 <j-bot> PSDW: _
18:34:59 <PSDW> [ _
18:35:00 <j-bot> PSDW: _
18:35:36 <PSDW> [ 1 + 4 == 2 + 3
18:35:36 <j-bot> PSDW: 1
18:36:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:37:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71663&oldid=71578 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+136) /* FROM HERE TO THERE */
18:38:54 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71664&oldid=71659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Computational class] */ typo
18:48:18 -!- tromp has joined.
18:49:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:54:26 <PSDW> [ 12345 ^ 675
18:54:26 <j-bot> PSDW: _
18:54:31 <PSDW> [ 12345
18:54:31 <j-bot> PSDW: 12345
18:54:35 <PSDW> [ 1234567890
18:54:35 <j-bot> PSDW: 1234567890
18:54:38 <PSDW> [ 12081248139759817359
18:54:38 <j-bot> PSDW: 1.20812e19
18:54:44 <PSDW> [ max
18:54:44 <j-bot> PSDW: |value error: max
18:54:51 <PSDW> [ _14242415135135153125
18:54:51 <j-bot> PSDW: _1.42424e19
18:54:58 <PSDW> [ 1424124.124e2
18:54:58 <j-bot> PSDW: 1.42412e8
18:55:53 -!- PSDW has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:57:06 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:00:32 -!- spruit11 has joined.
19:01:13 -!- kevinalh has joined.
19:04:30 <esowiki> [[42]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71665&oldid=71257 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* Implications / Speculation verging on the mystical */ typofix
19:05:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71666&oldid=71539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-97)
19:06:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71667&oldid=71666 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68)
19:06:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71668&oldid=71667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* A /* B */ C */
19:15:30 -!- tromp has joined.
19:27:52 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:31:59 -!- imode has joined.
19:44:59 -!- tromp has joined.
19:47:41 <ArthurStrong> what is this
19:50:22 <shachaf> `? this
19:50:25 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
19:50:46 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like this?
19:51:08 * ArthurStrong likes the attitude of this channel
19:53:47 -!- zseri has joined.
19:56:43 <zzo38> If I say I like this, then they are lying, but if I say I do not like this, then I will have to delete it. Therefore, I don't know.
19:56:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:57:54 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: sounds like Richard Smullyan's puzzle
19:59:10 <zzo38> (Well, either that, or I am nobody.)
20:01:44 <shachaf> Is it mandatory to delete things you don't like?
20:02:33 <zzo38> No, actually is probably better to keep it in case one person likes this, but, they say that nobody likes this, and if that is true then there isn't a point.
20:16:35 -!- shikhin has changed nick to {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}.
20:16:43 -!- {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} has changed nick to shikhin.
20:17:56 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
20:19:53 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:27:56 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:35:33 -!- tromp has joined.
20:36:19 -!- zseri has joined.
20:38:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:38:36 -!- tromp has joined.
20:41:35 <arseniiv_> there is a point, actually in this line there are nine points over each of “i” letters (silly, they’re called dots, you’d say, but but but but)
20:41:39 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
20:47:28 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
20:47:48 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
20:47:57 -!- zseri has joined.
20:48:28 <pikhq> Deletion's hard
20:49:08 <shachaf> From B-trees? That's annoyingly true.
20:49:16 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:50:24 <pikhq> Data structures get easier if you only have to support adding things. Pity everything's finite.
20:51:35 <shachaf> One trick you can do is not rebalance your B-trees on deletion.
20:51:46 <shachaf> Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
20:53:33 -!- Antebrationist8 has joined.
20:54:06 -!- Antebrationist has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:54:15 <Antebrationist8> I've completed the initialization of the Minsky machine, with 5 pointers.
20:55:21 <Antebrationist8> zzo38, is two registers enough for turing completeness?
20:55:30 <zzo38> Antebrationist8: Yes
20:55:38 <Antebrationist8> How so?
20:56:26 <zzo38> I don't know all of the details, but yes it is enough (although one is insufficient).
20:57:10 <shachaf> You can use two registers to simulate a stack, and you can use two registers to simulate four registers.
20:57:30 <Antebrationist8> Ah, okay. That sounds turing complete.
21:00:09 -!- tromp has joined.
21:00:34 <Antebrationist8> Wikipedia has a proof.
21:05:40 <Antebrationist8> Why is a Minsky machine a finite-state automaton?
21:07:10 <zzo38> It is easy to see that one register is insufficient.
21:07:36 <Antebrationist8> Yes, but why is a Minsky machine a finite-state automaton if the counters have an infinite number of values?
21:07:46 <zzo38> I don't know?
21:11:30 -!- aloril_ has joined.
21:12:11 <imode> Antebrationist8: a turing machine is also a finite state automaton.
21:12:22 <Antebrationist8> ?
21:12:27 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:12:32 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:13:05 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
21:13:38 <imode> so, finite automata aren't automatically in one computational class just because they use finite state automata. what matters is what data structure is paired with your finite state automaton.
21:14:47 <imode> you can pair a state machine with nothing and get what you'd expect: you're only able to store the current state. if you attach a tape, and wire up the transitions to be tape conditions + actions, it becomes a turing machine.
21:15:14 <imode> finite automata are the backbone of control flow. they do not determine how powerful a particular automaton can be. the structure they manipulate does that.
21:16:16 <imode> does that make sense?
21:18:09 <shachaf> jix: whoa, you're a SAT solvulator?
21:18:16 <shachaf> solvulater alligator
21:26:24 <b_jonas> `? solvulator
21:26:25 <HackEso> solvulator? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:26:26 <b_jonas> `? SAT solvulator
21:26:27 <HackEso> SAT solvulator? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:28:28 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri).
21:28:38 -!- zseri has joined.
21:36:38 <Antebrationist8> imode, that makes perfect sense. Thank you.
21:36:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:38:00 <imode> no problem.
21:42:43 -!- tromp has joined.
22:15:16 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:17:18 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
22:18:11 -!- Antebrationist8 has quit (Quit: Connection closed).
22:19:32 -!- zseri has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:21:16 -!- zseri has joined.
22:26:38 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:33:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:43:47 <orbitaldecay> Does anyone know of a bf variant already recorded that keeps track of an "indirection level". E.g. { increases indirection by one and } decreases indirection by one, so + becomes {>} and - becomes {<}. Same number of commands, but more expressive power.
22:45:07 <int-e> hmm, [{]
22:50:42 <orbitaldecay> yeah, I thought about that too
22:51:55 -!- tromp has joined.
22:52:04 <int-e> orbitaldecay: also what does } do when the level is already 0 :)
22:52:45 <orbitaldecay> haven't thought that far ahead :)
22:52:47 <zzo38> Presumably, nothing, I suppose
22:52:54 <int-e> orbitaldecay: Anyway, it doesn't look familiar to me, for what it's worth. (I have not made a study of brainfuck derivatives.)
22:53:23 <orbitaldecay> I hate adding to bf derivatives because there is such a wealth of them it's hard to believe these ideas haven't already been explored
22:53:50 <orbitaldecay> but like, 95% of them just add redundant commands or are substitutions
22:54:04 <int-e> It's time for a brainfuck derivative ontology :P
22:54:32 <orbitaldecay> I've thought about undergoing the herculanian task of organizing them, but geez
22:54:38 <orbitaldecay> maybe next time I'm out of work
22:54:41 <zzo38> Yes, then you can see if one is done or not.
22:56:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:56:29 <orbitaldecay> And totally off topic, I just learned that "gay tail" has a completely different meaning in the world of dogs
22:57:31 <orbitaldecay> http://www.vetstreet.com/dr-marty-becker/my-dog-has-a-gay-tail-what-does-this-mean
22:57:49 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:00:10 <int-e> That one could also feature in a spy movie.
23:01:17 <int-e> "As long as it’s wagging, I’m happy. And you should be, too."
23:01:44 <orbitaldecay> hahaha
23:02:49 <orbitaldecay> I really like this indirection idea. You could wrap a normal bf program in {} and have a memory mapped data pointer
23:04:47 <pikhq> How many BF derivatives even are there? Way the fuck too many, at least, but
23:05:16 <orbitaldecay> yeah, way too many
23:07:00 <int-e> pikhq: infinitely many, or close enough that it makes no difference
23:07:27 <shachaf> I've heard of derivatives of regular languages.
23:07:34 <shachaf> Maybe that extends to programming languages?
23:07:51 <orbitaldecay> if that's the case, brainfuck is like the latin of programming languages
23:07:56 <orbitaldecay> millions of little bastardizations
23:08:37 <int-e> shachaf: s/regular//
23:09:05 <int-e> (the point being that it's really an operation on any set of words)
23:10:16 <int-e> It's even relevant for context-free languages, cf. Greibach normal form.
23:12:39 <shachaf> I knew it was more general than regular languages but I wasn't sure how much.
23:12:48 <shachaf> But also if I just said "languages" it would be ambiguous.
23:12:49 <int-e> @metar lowi
23:12:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 032250Z AUTO 11003KT 070V140 9999 OVC070 09/03 Q1019
23:13:16 <shachaf> OK, I see, it's a pretty simple operation.
23:13:48 <int-e> shachaf: Maybe the ambiguity would've made it better? I'm not sure I would've found the alternative meaning ("formal languages" in addition to "programming languages") though... so maybe not.
23:14:08 <shachaf> Why is this called a derivative?
23:15:31 <int-e> I'm not sure. Maybe if you treat words as monomials over a ring you get something similar?
23:21:56 <shachaf> Hmm, looking at how the derivative of a regular expression is computed I guess I can see some similarity.
23:22:48 <pikhq> I feel like there's a difference between "an excessive finite number" and "actually infinite" :)
23:23:50 -!- craigo_ has joined.
23:29:23 -!- tromp has joined.
23:30:58 <int-e> Hmm, the name seems to be due to Brzozowski (probably) and as far as I can see he didn't motivate the name...
23:30:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
23:31:28 <int-e> pikhq: an inaccessible natural number is infinite for all intents and purposes ;)
23:31:49 <pikhq> My math degree compels me to disagree.
23:32:15 <shachaf> What's the disagreement?
23:32:25 <int-e> (I think an inaccessible natural number is necessarily a non-standard natural number, and those *are* infinite)
23:32:59 <pikhq> humf
23:33:02 * int-e is dancing on a thin wire.
23:33:29 <pikhq> I'm not sure those really count as "natural numbers" unless you're using a very specialized and unusual definition thereof
23:33:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:33:48 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
23:34:07 <int-e> A natrual number is an element of a model of the Peano axioms.
23:34:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:34:43 <int-e> (With induction as an axiom schema to make it first order and allow non-standard models :P)
23:35:07 <int-e> pikhq: I think I *can* weasel my way out of this!
23:35:17 <zzo38> As far as I can see the Peano axioms don't have any "inaccessible" natural numbers, since it seems to require that all numbers are reachable
23:35:45 <pikhq> Not if I don't accept your definitions as being commonly-accepted or immediately useful or applicable!
23:36:13 <int-e> zzo38: Well, there's a difference between consistency and omega-consistency...
23:36:36 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, I know, although I fail to see how that is relevant.
23:36:52 <int-e> pikhq: Oh but all I have to demonstrate is that *I* am working with an--ahem--reasonable set of definitions that support my ideas.
23:37:20 <pikhq> Y'know, generally mathematics doesn't work as a debate format.
23:37:42 <int-e> zzo38: It means that the Peano axioms (at least in their first-order logic formulation) are not as strong as you believe.
23:37:56 <pikhq> It's more about working with an already-agreed-upon set of axioms and determining what can be derived from them. :)
23:38:01 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:38:08 -!- atehwa has joined.
23:38:12 <int-e> pikhq: We're close enough to the foundations to be open to debate.
23:38:28 <zzo38> int-e: O, OK
23:38:38 <shachaf> For what it's worth I read int-e's first sentence that way.
23:38:54 <int-e> pikhq: To my mind, the saving grace of math is not that there is no debate... it is that most of mathematics is detached from these foundational matters.
23:38:54 <shachaf> I mean, I figured "inaccessible" was probably talking about non-standard models.
23:39:22 <pikhq> shachaf: I mean, it *would* have to be.
23:40:14 <pikhq> mostly I'm rejecting the use of a non-standard model as being applicable at all :D
23:40:27 <int-e> pikhq: Where's the fun in that?
23:40:33 <pikhq> I am reasonably sure that the number of Brainfuck derivatives that exists is a 100% bog-standard natural, alas
23:40:38 <shachaf> int-e: But how do you feel about Lawvere theories?
23:40:40 * pikhq shrugs
23:40:47 <pikhq> It's Brainfuck derivatives, they're not fun. :P
23:41:04 <shachaf> A bog-standard natural is either zero or the successor of a bog-standard natural.
23:41:35 <shachaf> What was that set theory that had some sort of predicate like that?
23:41:39 <int-e> pikhq: I'm just arguing in my free time. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k )
23:41:49 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71669&oldid=71664 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) /* Values of y */
23:42:10 <pikhq> I suppose I can't dispute that.
23:43:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Charlie0 * New user account
23:43:37 <int-e> pikhq: I might act differently if this was ##math... though I probably wouldn't. This is too much fun :)
23:43:49 <pikhq> hehe :)
23:44:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, isn't that how it is work?
23:44:34 <pikhq> Full disclosure, my degree is in applied math specifically; waaay more concerned with the naturals and reals than I am more interesting number systems :P
23:45:03 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't remember the details about this.
23:45:25 <shachaf> Something like ZF, but with an extra predicate -- maybe for things called "standard sets" -- that could only be used in particular ways
23:46:11 <shachaf> Oh, I think it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_set_theory
23:49:18 <int-e> pikhq: On a different level, I'm not sure that the mathematical model of natural numbers is applicable to the number of Brainfuck derivatives... because that would mean that we would have to draw a line between languages that are mere Brainfuck derivatives and those that stand on their own, and we'd probably also have to produce a complete list of candidate languages. In practice that adds a...
23:49:24 <int-e> ...degree of uncertainty and malleability that makes the number not mathematically well-defined. I'm honestly not sure which branch of philosophy such discussions belong to...
23:49:45 <pikhq> Ontology, I dare say.
23:50:25 <shachaf> Ohnology.
23:50:34 <pikhq> I mean yeah, basically
23:51:04 <int-e> Oh, that is a good start.
23:52:03 <pikhq> Alas, that's a branch of philosophy I haven't much studied.
23:54:01 -!- Charlie0 has joined.
23:54:12 <Charlie0> How in heavens do you update the Introductions page?
23:54:27 <Charlie0> I follow every single step but it still won't let me
23:54:32 <pikhq> 🤷🏻‍♀️
23:55:16 <Charlie0> Editing Esolang:Introduce yourself (section)Error: This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: require new users to introduce
23:55:17 <Charlie0> themselves
23:55:20 <Charlie0> ???
23:56:09 * pikhq has like one page on the wiki to her name from 14 years ago
23:56:14 <pikhq> Can't help ya there, sorry
←2020-05-02 2020-05-03 2020-05-04→ ↑2020 ↑all