←2020-05-06 2020-05-07 2020-05-08→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:01:02 <Antebrationist> Could someone please write the reverse of this message?
00:01:49 <b_jonas> Antebrationist: ask HackEso or j-bot, they do such services
00:02:01 <Antebrationist> It's a joke.
00:02:04 <Antebrationist> https://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP
00:04:19 <zzo38> Can we make up a new card game based on the esoteric computer programming and the other stuff?
00:05:14 <Antebrationist> Maybe.
00:05:39 <Antebrationist> Do you mean like "make a turing complete card game" or "make a card game where all the cards are esolangs" or both?
00:05:51 <imode> Antebrationist: Snoitcurtsni raelcnu, desrever niarb mets.
00:06:13 <imode> Pleh, I'm deppart ni na CRI yrotcaf!
00:07:24 <Antebrationist> Oh no.
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00:21:29 <Antebrationist> imode, have you been reading XKCD?
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00:23:55 <imode> yuh.
00:27:02 <Antebrationist> It's a parody of the XKCD 327 hovertext.
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00:28:59 <zzo38> I am not sure what I mean. I just mean that if you can try, then you can try to use TeXnicard so that we will have more testing with it, at least.
00:30:52 <b_jonas> Antebrationist: which is of course just a worse repeat of https://xkcd.com/10/
00:32:02 <zzo38> Since, I am working on TeXnicard, and if we can make up any cards with it (whether new card games or existing ones), then the testing can be done and the features can be improved, etc.
00:32:16 <zzo38> Do you like to play mahjong?
00:33:09 <zzo38> Do you like to play dark mahjong, or Washizu mahjong, or any of those other variants?
00:33:32 <Antebrationist> No. How does Texnicard work?
00:34:09 <zzo38> TeXnicard is a program I wrote for managing and printing custom cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering, or your own card games too.
00:34:21 <Antebrationist> Okay.
00:34:27 <zzo38> There is a Fossil repository at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui
00:34:55 <zzo38> If you have any questions, then please tell me so that I can write in the frequently ask questions section.
00:36:04 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71891&oldid=71888 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+178) /* Memory model */
00:37:05 <zzo38> The software is not complete yet, but hopefully other people who are interested in it can help, too. Also, there is enough to do many things with it so far, anyways, and I documented all of its functions as much as I thought to do so; hopefully there isn't something missing in the documentation.
00:37:18 <Antebrationist> Where is the documentation?
00:39:30 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71892&oldid=71890 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
00:41:19 <zzo38> Select "files"; all of the file names with ".doc" on the end are documentation.
00:41:24 <Antebrationist> Okay.
00:42:49 <zzo38> You can also look at the templates if you want to see examples of how it is working. Both of those templates are ones I am using.
00:43:34 <zzo38> An example output from the "magic-html" template is at http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ and there also links to the card database file that was exported in this way.
00:45:37 <zzo38> (If you have Fossil on your computer, then you can clone the repository too, in case you want a local copy of the repository. This includes the wiki and tickets too.)
00:49:17 <zzo38> Please tell me if something is unclear or confusing or incomplete, in order that I can correct it.
00:49:49 <Antebrationist> Okay.
00:51:43 <zzo38> Do you know SQL and/or PostScript programming?
00:52:08 <Antebrationist> I know a little SQL.
00:54:28 <zzo38> It helps to know SQL and PostScript programming to program templates for TeXnicard.
00:54:47 <Antebrationist> Okay.
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01:11:13 <imode> a token-oriented thue would be a neat idea. with numbers and strings as symbols, arithmetic, logical and comparison operators...
01:11:33 <zzo38> Yes, that is my idea too.
01:13:03 <imode> control flow would be interesting. given a formatted list of tokens representing a list of numbers, how would you sum an array.
01:14:18 <imode> you'd extract a number from the array, but you'd need a placeholder for that particular number... maybe the rule system could just detect a special token and say "this stands for any number" or something.
01:14:53 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought.
01:16:59 <imode> : sum [ <number> : sum <number> [ ; ... : sum <number> [ <number> : <number> <number> + sum [ ; ... : sum [ <number> ] : <number> ; ... : sum [ ] : ;
01:17:51 <imode> syntax is : <pattern> : <replacement> ;
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01:33:09 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/
01:33:10 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale kmc
01:35:52 <kmc> hehehe
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01:38:23 <shachaf> come on
01:38:54 <pikhq> :3 kitty
01:39:26 <b_jonas> Rum Tum Tugger
01:39:31 <b_jonas> `? cat
01:39:33 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
01:40:12 <shachaf> `slbd pbflist//$d
01:40:18 <HackEso> pbflist//echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ Sgeo \ quintopia \ ion \ b_jonas \ Cale
01:40:49 <shachaf> oops, didn't mean to ping everyone
01:41:11 <b_jonas> don't worry, you pinged only the same people that I already pinged
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01:42:45 <pikhq> byechaf?
01:43:08 * pikhq shrugs
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02:12:55 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71893&oldid=71798 * D * (+131)
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02:13:52 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71894&oldid=71893 * D * (+129)
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02:17:50 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71895&oldid=71894 * D * (+99)
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02:19:17 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71896&oldid=71895 * D * (+156)
02:38:45 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71897&oldid=71896 * D * (+654)
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03:17:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71898&oldid=71746 * Salpynx * (+789) reply to Orby
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04:54:08 <zzo38> I read that apparently BitBitJump was actually invented during the seventies.
04:55:32 <imode> fascinating, do you have a source?
04:56:23 <zzo38> https://esoteric.codes/blog/don-woods (unfortunately it doesn't seem to have any anchors)
04:59:03 <imode> huh.
04:59:06 <imode> neat
05:05:03 <zzo38> How should this be mentioned in esolang wiki?
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06:33:40 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+13154) brain dump, to be reviewed and edited later
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09:03:46 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71900&oldid=66687 * D * (+73) /* External resources */
09:04:26 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71901&oldid=71900 * D * (+38)
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11:03:46 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71902&oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+3263) /* Further claims */ high level Python -> Python examples, with arbitrary re-encoding
11:04:57 <rain1> hiya
11:07:13 <salpynx> Hi
11:08:48 <salpynx> I'm loitering to discuss simple-translation ideas with Orby, and whomever else is interested
11:12:46 <rain1> cool!
11:13:36 <rain1> i am interested in it too
11:14:01 <salpynx> I just wrote a character-by-character zip file to python translator that reconstructs the zipped python source file functionality from the resulting generated (different) python code to test an idea about encoding. It makes me laugh, but I think there's an interesting point in there somewhere.
11:14:28 <rain1> I don't understand
11:14:34 <rain1> zip -> python
11:15:08 <rain1> is it on any zip or specific ips?
11:15:11 <rain1> zips*
11:16:02 <rain1> please explain it more
11:16:12 <salpynx> I zip some python source code, and claim that is some kind of encoded source, then perform a simple-translation on the zip-file, symbol by symbol, into python, which will produce the equivalent result of the file I zipped
11:16:26 <rain1> I see
11:17:58 <rain1> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture#Examples_using_a_high_level_language
11:18:00 <salpynx> it's actually quite trivial, but I think it illustrates a point I was exploring that arbitrarily re-encoding language still enables it to be simple-translate to another (or itself)
11:18:29 <rain1> i get what you are saying but doesn't this include a prefix string as well as translating each character
11:18:45 <rain1> I think that we need to differentiate between simple translation that does and doesn't include prefix,suffix strings
11:18:50 <rain1> because those can contain interpreters
11:18:55 <rain1> what do you think?
11:19:46 <salpynx> it's a suffix string. and the construction I was trying to justify, which should be able to work in an absolute worst case scenario, relies on just that suffix
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11:20:18 <salpynx> being an interpreter (in my python example using the builtin `exec()`)
11:23:04 <salpynx> I was trying to form an argument that the empty-string is part of every alphabet set, so should be a valid symbol to translate. I get that it sounds like cheating, but I think it is reasonable to make a formal statement about alphabets being sets which contain the empty-string. I believe that is standard in set theory
11:23:11 <rain1> Maybe the distinction isn't so important though, because it may be possible t ohack around it using techniques similar to polyglot programs
11:23:30 <rain1> every symbol could map to PREFIX[symbol]POSTFIX
11:23:51 <rain1> where PREFIX is something like "interpret the following string" and POSTFIXPREFIX is basically a comment
11:24:01 <salpynx> Yeah, I think a similar trick can be done in Python without the suffix trick, but not in one line like I did :)
11:27:39 <salpynx> I guess I'm trying to re-brand "just adding a suffix" as not a special cheating case, but as a valid symbol substitution for the empty-string or (End-Of-File) symbol that is part of every formal alphabet set. I need to see if anyone buys that spin
11:28:17 <rain1> I think it's important, I think we need a name for each version
11:33:15 <salpynx> I'm still working on getting my ideas straight, that page on the wiki was my attempt at getting the core of them out there. Now I've done that I can finish reading Orby's modifications to the simple-translation page
11:33:54 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71903&oldid=71897 * D * (+0) /* External Links */
11:34:25 <salpynx> I'm trying to find a good source for the standard definition of a 'concatenative' programming language. Is Python considered 'concatenative'?
11:37:38 <salpynx> that's probably a dumb question, I know it's not. I'm really trying to figure out a term for something like Python which can be split into smaller sub-units that can stand alone as complete programs in their own right. I want to term that concatenative.
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11:38:14 <wib_jonas> Wait, Fabrice Bellard now has a bigfloat library? Why didn't anyone tell me that? https://bellard.org/libbf/
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13:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71904&oldid=71833 * Salpynx * (+835) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */ RBF -> PF -> Python
13:20:39 <orbitaldecay> Naturally I just missed salpynx
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13:56:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71905&oldid=71898 * Orby * (+322) /* Picofuck */
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19:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71924&oldid=71836 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* Languages */
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19:58:26 <esowiki> [[Acrostic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71928 * Mercerenies * (+7707) Acrostic: The crossword-based programming language
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21:18:12 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: we meet at last!
21:19:26 <salpynx> Hi! I just saw we missed each other by 10mins earlier :)
21:19:38 <orbitaldecay> Ha, yeah it was unfortunate
21:19:56 <orbitaldecay> Okay, so what do you think of the definition of simple translation as I have currently worded it?
21:20:26 <orbitaldecay> It doesn't explicitly tie the semantics of A and B, but there is an implied semantic interpretation of B according to the translation table
21:20:49 <orbitaldecay> I thought it was a better definition for the purposes of minimization
21:22:13 <salpynx> It seems good to me, it's the way I have been thinking about the problem.
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21:23:22 <orbitaldecay> Good. I think it captures the essence of the idea without needing to worry about isomorphisms between machine models and other silly problems
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21:23:52 <orbitaldecay> I think it also reduces some aspects of the problem to a string game
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21:23:57 <salpynx> I had a moment of doubt when I thought there was some extra requirements on how the two translation tables had to be related to each other, but I think now the requirement is only that the tables need to exist independently?
21:24:16 <orbitaldecay> Define "need to exist independently"
21:24:52 <salpynx> I have a feeling that one way simple-translations can exist, i.e. one table can't be formed.
21:25:19 <orbitaldecay> Definitely, but "one way" simple translations also include things like trivial encodings
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21:25:30 <orbitaldecay> e.g. encoding brainfuck in binary and calling it a two command language
21:25:45 <orbitaldecay> + is 000, - is 001, etc.
21:26:20 <salpynx> i.e Fractran -> RBF should be possible because of TC, but RBF -> Fractran is not possible as a simple-translation because Fractran is not divisible into programmatic sub-units
21:27:01 <orbitaldecay> yeah, there is some sort of equivalence that is required by simple translation that is more specific than computational class
21:27:15 <salpynx> Also Deadfish -> BF is a possible simple-translation, because BF is more powerful than Deadfish, but BF -> Deadfish is not possible since Deadfish lis sub-TC
21:28:00 <orbitaldecay> I don't think "one way" simple translations are very interesting because I don't think they actually preserve anything useful
21:28:42 <orbitaldecay> I should say "one table simple translations"
21:28:58 <orbitaldecay> because under the current definition A can be a ST of B, but B not an ST of A
21:29:03 <salpynx> So I think the strict requirement that a simple translation has to be bi-directional is too much, but it is certainly an interesting case. Examining why translations can't be bi-directional is also interesting
21:29:35 <int-e> Oh scroll. Did you define "simple"?
21:30:02 <salpynx> not really :)
21:30:11 <int-e> I'd expect "effective" = "computable" there.
21:30:40 <int-e> Or perhaps a restriction of that.
21:30:42 <orbitaldecay> Well, if we don't have the strict requirement then PF -> RBF is just + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100
21:31:10 <orbitaldecay> no need to define 0 and 1 in terms of rbf at all
21:33:01 <int-e> (Fix any at most TC formalism and let the translation use that formalism. It could be as simple as a finite state transducer.)
21:33:07 <salpynx> hmm, I see your point, if a 2 way translation is possible, a one way translation is not very interesting or useful.
21:33:39 <int-e> But usually the 1-way translations are easier to come up with.
21:34:10 <int-e> Typically you have translations A -> B and B -> A that do not compose to the identity.
21:34:28 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, the 1-way translations are very easy to come up with but I fear that they don't carry much meaning
21:34:44 <orbitaldecay> int-e: no, not identity, but "eta-equivalent" in some sense
21:34:54 <orbitaldecay> to borrow that term
21:35:25 <int-e> Hmm, observationally equivalent in some sense?
21:35:34 <orbitaldecay> programs do the same thing
21:35:39 <int-e> (eta-reduction is something very specific in my mind)
21:35:51 <orbitaldecay> am I remembering the definition of eta equivalent correctly?
21:36:13 <int-e> \x. M x --> A when x is not free in M
21:36:24 <int-e> (too lazy to find the lambda, so \ is a lambda)
21:36:36 <int-e> Ooph
21:36:42 <int-e> that A is an M.
21:37:26 <int-e> (I changed my mind about using A or M half-way through typing this... I should know better.)
21:37:36 <salpynx> Hang on though, if your one way PF -> RBF translation is + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100 , that's perfectly valid. Due to the nature of PF and RBF, I claim that a translation the other way is definitely possible,
21:37:36 <orbitaldecay> well, what I mean is that if you convert A -> B using table (1) then B -> A using table (2) then the final program should be equivalent to the original program in terms of what it actually does
21:38:06 <orbitaldecay> If you can find it, I'd love to see it :)
21:38:07 <int-e> orbitaldecay: usually when you have bijective translations it means the two languages are almost the same.
21:38:10 <salpynx> you have just made the RBF -> PF translation harder to come up with, by transferring the complexity to that direction
21:38:53 <int-e> So the while meaningful (in that you explain how exactly the languages correspond to each other), the translation will probably also be very boring.
21:39:06 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: maybe? I don't know
21:39:36 <orbitaldecay> int-e: See the nanofuck and reversible bitfuck translations, the translation is actually very interesting
21:39:38 <int-e> And I'm sure you can construct pairs of languages that contradict these ideas... emphasis on "construct".
21:41:36 <orbitaldecay> So, the whole motivation behind this "simple translation" idea, is to effectively define exactly what a minimization is. The source and destination languages are definitely almost the same
21:42:39 <orbitaldecay> But without requiring both tables, it is trivial to come up with two command minimizations of any language which is not very interesting
21:43:54 <salpynx> It's interesting because I am coming at this from a different angle, not related to minimisation, I was trying to find a way to translate code from one language to another using simply Godel numerings, so performing valid code translation without needing to pay any attention to semantics
21:44:58 <orbitaldecay> yes, I think there are bigger applications here than just minimization
21:44:59 <salpynx> the simple translation tables are a way to handle the semantic equivalence robustly to them perform a 'simple' operation to convert between two langauges
21:46:28 <orbitaldecay> I think the fact that you are approaching this from a different angle is very good. I think you're seeing things I'm not.
21:47:31 <salpynx> I think the idea of a 1 way simple translation is valid, but it's not a creative choice thing, either a 2-way translation exists between a language pair, or a simple translation is only possible in one direction. If a 2-way translation is possible, and one direction is trivial, the other will potentially be complex.
21:48:19 <salpynx> trivial bf substitutions are trivial, but that's just how they are, the model captures the reality
21:49:08 <orbitaldecay> agreed. Did you see what I wrote on what ais523 called "generalized simple translations" on the page?
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21:49:48 <orbitaldecay> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture method section
21:52:32 <salpynx> I caught some of ais523's thought from the IRC logs, but I haven't checked back over all of them. I need to do that
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21:53:13 <orbitaldecay> yeah, he (she? they?) had some excellent insights
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21:54:44 <salpynx> My idea of the empty-string symbol started life as an EOF character, but I thought that was a bit to ASCII based, and assuming the existence of 'files' was not very general either. I thought the empty-string symbol was more general and had an established meaning when dealign with alphabets and symbols in a mathematical sense
21:55:46 <orbitaldecay> Well, I think the empty-string symbol specifically needs to be a NOP and it doesn't really make sense to translate it into something with any semantic value
21:55:58 <orbitaldecay> because in theory you can insert it anywhere
21:56:45 <orbitaldecay> I don't think the idea of α and ω as start and end markers is too out there
21:57:19 <orbitaldecay> because interpreters already implicitly deal with these concepts
21:57:34 <salpynx> I was trying to handle languages like unary and Lenguage and similar joke-like encoding langauges where I think the empty-string as end of source code has to be meaningful in any iterprerter. SIlly and extreme examples, but they are interesting for encoding in some sense
21:59:22 <orbitaldecay> If we treat the code string as an algebraic structure, then the empty-string has a very specific meaning that is not equivalent to eof I think
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22:00:10 <salpynx> On the LHS though I don't think you can read an empty-string between symbols, since there will be infinitely many of them between any two symbols, so reading will never terminate. I though to model it the interpreter is asking "Give me the next symbol", and the answer is a symbol from an alphabet set, and formally ε has to be a valid response to
22:00:11 <salpynx> that qn
22:01:42 <orbitaldecay> 1. What does the interpreter do if it encounters that symbol mid stream, 2. How does that differ from EOF? The empty string is typically the identity, which can be inserted anywhere in theory
22:03:33 <orbitaldecay> From a monoid perspective, εa = aε = a
22:03:41 <salpynx> I guess my argument goes that because for something like Unary, ε (or EOF / EOF like) is _required_ semantically, for RBF and Python it should at least be permissible as a symbol, because we are trying to generalise source encoding
22:04:32 <orbitaldecay> I agree that EOF is an explicit concept here that is worth modeling, I just don't think it's the identity / empty string
22:04:46 <orbitaldecay> I think it's a distinct symbol in the language
22:05:13 <orbitaldecay> which is why I proposed using ω
22:05:30 <salpynx> that's why I posed the question / response "What is the next symbol?" In an encoded source we read from, the empty string will _never_ be encountered mid stream... I feel like there is a way to formalise this better, but I'm not sure how
22:07:04 <orbitaldecay> I see what you're saying, but I don't think "empty-string" is necessarily the answer to "What is the next symbol?" at EOF
22:07:28 <orbitaldecay> it breaks the monoid structure
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22:08:14 <salpynx> so ε can appear on the RHS as a monoid identity as you say, εa = aε = a , but on the LHS it looks like it's treated differently.. but it's still consistent. I think I need someone who knows more about monoids than me to back me up, or explain why that's fundamentally wrong :)
22:08:50 <orbitaldecay> I agree, I am not an expert on monoids either. What's your take int-e? You're a math guy.
22:10:04 <int-e> Well, mathematically there's no depate at all here... a = aε is just as valid as aε = a. (equality is symmetric, among other things)
22:10:58 <orbitaldecay> Do you think it makes sense to say that EOF is equivalent to ε?
22:11:00 <salpynx> what about ε as an end-of-string marker -- can that definintion coexist with εa = aε = a ?
22:11:23 <int-e> However, when using equations for *rewriting* (e.g. to simplify expressions), you'll *orient* equations. This is typically indicated by an arrow. And then you want aε -> a, because a -> aε doesn't terminate.
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22:11:44 <int-e> Well no, that's not an end-of-string marker.
22:11:58 <int-e> ε is just the unit of a monoid here.
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22:12:29 <orbitaldecay> Does it make sense at all to introduce specific symbols that denote the begining and end of a string from a monoid perspective?
22:12:43 <int-e> If you are in a context where ε is an end-of-string marker, those equations make no sense. But people tend to use a different symbol then... for example, $.
22:13:49 <orbitaldecay> I had proposed using α and ω as symbols to denote the beginning and end of programs
22:15:22 <orbitaldecay> In some sense it seems like an EOF makes a lot of sense. Interpreters implicitly deal with this concept.
22:15:35 <orbitaldecay> either as null terminators or whatever
22:15:57 <salpynx> εaε + εbε = εabε which sort of has implied ε as end of string markers. You only encounter it explicitly if you are reading LTR and reach end of string?
22:16:54 <orbitaldecay> but εaε + εbε = εabε = aεb too
22:17:33 <orbitaldecay> and aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb for that matter
22:18:34 <orbitaldecay> I hope you are not taking offense to my objections, I just want us both to get to the heart of the matter
22:18:58 <salpynx> can't you always add and subtract ε from anywhere, so even if you don't write a final ε, I can just claim it is still there, and the end of your string?
22:19:34 <int-e> huh.
22:19:54 <orbitaldecay> yes, but I don't think that it carries any meaning in that case. If ab = aεb then does the interpreter stop after a? if not, why does it stop when encountering ε in abε?
22:20:29 <int-e> Yes, ab = aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb in a monoid. Why is that a problem? Nobody in their right mind would actually write the latter for the former.
22:20:59 <int-e> But I lack context... I don't have the patience to read through everything you wrote above.
22:21:02 <salpynx> no, no offense, I'm not 100% sure of my formulation, I think the EOF / empty-string question would be good to sort out. I thought ε was a neater and equivalent way of combining and generalising the meanings, but maybe they are distinct. I would like to understand (and learn) too
22:21:53 <orbitaldecay> Okay, glad about no offense, I can tell we're both excited. int-e I think the heart of the question is: does it make sense to use ε as eof, and if not, why not
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22:30:56 <salpynx> int-e: (trying to summarise the important context) We are wanting to deal with 'program source code', made up of symbols from an alphabet (a set, a monoid?), there's possibly two things we're doing with them 1) coming up with "translations" from one alphabet to another, and 2) formulating abstract machines to interpret them symbol-by-symbol
22:32:23 <int-e> I still think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_transducer may be relevant (as a very simple model of computation that in particular encompasses simple substitutions of strings by other strings)
22:32:28 <salpynx> is it reasonable to have ε appear on the LHS of a translation to represent the end-of-string to the source translating to some non-empty string of symbols
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22:35:02 <int-e> I'd only use ε to represent the empty string (unit of the monoid). That's how the formal language people generally do it... and the rewriting people... and the presentation theory people (who usually call it 1)...
22:35:56 <int-e> So if you can expand the empty string, ε -> ab, then it makes sense on a left-hand side of a rewrite rule. Otherwise it doesn't.
22:35:59 <salpynx> ... I'm wondering if I'm trying to shoe-horn something that makes sense for the 2) usage above into 1), which may not be appropriate. Also, we're talking about a specific "translation" concept that may be subtly different from the traditional "substitution" use in re-writing, (but maybe not...)
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22:37:27 <int-e> (That rule would allow you to rewrite cd = cεd to cabd. The equality holds because of the monoid structure of the objects (most likely strings) that we're working with)
22:38:39 <int-e> So maybe that's your confusion? Separating the rewrite rules from the implicit equalities that we can use between rewriting steps? I'm not sure... I've added quite a bit of my own interpretation to the picture, so I may be quite far from what you want.
22:40:52 <salpynx> Thanks, I understand "cd = cεd to cabd", and I think that breaks what I was trying to do with ε on the LHS, so I'll do some more reading (incl. Finite-state transducers) and see if I can formulate what I'm trying to do better.
22:44:25 <orbitaldecay> I'll be available to chat, but not watching IRC. Mention me if anything comes up.
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22:46:13 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71940 * Tetratrary * (+4639) Created page with "'''Alluvium''' is a programming language. There are only two data types in Alluvium: numbers and streams. Every number in Alluvium is a non-negative integer. The size of a n..."
22:46:15 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: I'm going to think on this more. I don't feel a beginning of source α is at all necessary , but that an ω is in at least some cases, although it would be better to avoid it when possible.
22:46:58 <salpynx> figuring out why I think that is going to take me some more time :)
22:52:43 <salpynx> int-e: thanks for the Finite-state transducer link, that's a new concept for me and sounds very much like what we're trying to do. I'll read up on it before trying anything new.
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23:00:27 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71941&oldid=71923 * Tetratrary * (+47)
23:01:23 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71942&oldid=71940 * Tetratrary * (-270)
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23:10:49 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: I think the eof marker makes a lot of sense but I agree that avoiding it implies something stronger than allowing it. I'll check out the finite-state transducer link as well.
23:11:58 <orbitaldecay> Wow, this is remarkably close to what we're talking about
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