00:00:40 <imode> it's definitely not a pretty language, but you can do some interesting things in it.
00:00:55 <imode> for example, you can define what `if` and `if/else` are.
00:01:03 <orbitaldecay> Nice, hopping in the car but will read shortly. Here's what I'm working on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Orby/Term_rewriting_metalanguage
00:01:10 <imode> been reading that.
00:02:44 <imode> if is just `def [true if] [rapply] def [false if] [rdrop]`
00:03:08 <imode> if/else is `def [true if/else] [rapply rdrop rswap] def [false if/else] [rapply rdrop]`
00:05:12 <imode> it's not satisfying because you still have all those pre-defined things in the way. I guess I just like stuff like Thue more because you have no assumptions other than "I will replace this thing with this other thing at random".
00:05:50 <imode> out of chaos on a 1D line, you can enforce order.
00:16:05 <orbitaldecay> I hate to be a bother, but could you post it somewhere else? I really want to read what you're working on but hatebin in timing out for me.
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00:30:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:(1) Grace sent you a message]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72830 * JonoCode9374 * (+223) Created page with "Yeah thanks a lot. My browser thinks I've got one notification now, when I don't. ~~~~ ;P"
00:31:29 <imode> https://pastebin.com/raw/dcYx4u1i
00:31:38 <imode> weird that hatebin is timing out.
00:34:53 <imode> I think the problem is that there's way too many assumptions baked into the interpreter here.
00:36:43 <imode> it's not really a "rewriting language" if you aren't utilizing the rewriting part of it any further than base cases.
00:38:19 <b_jonas> I don't see spruit's language as a "term rewriting language" either, even though he claims it's a term rewriting language
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00:51:04 <imode> it's not satisfying to write in a language with pre-baked assumptions. it's more fun to build those things.
00:54:30 <orbitaldecay> imode: What you have there reminds me a lot of concatenative combinators
00:55:27 <imode> yeah. it kinda just popped out.
00:55:29 <orbitaldecay> Have you read the paper by Brent Kirby? I think you'd find use for it here
00:55:55 <imode> Concatenative Calculus?
00:56:05 <imode> theory of concatenative combinators, I take it.
00:56:23 <imode> yeah, I've been all around the concatenative scene.
00:57:46 <imode> it's an interesting idea. the language (and interpreter) has left and right-handed versions of all of the combinators (dup swap drop quote cat call).
00:58:07 <orbitaldecay> It seems to me like what you need is a good basis to work with
00:58:14 <imode> it just doesn't strike me as satisfying.
00:58:27 <imode> you pre-suppose things and quoted lists of things.
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00:59:28 <orbitaldecay> And you'd prefer to build those lists out of some other primitive?
01:00:35 <imode> you distinguish between two kinds of "symbols": compound ones that form lists, and individual ones, that do work on the symbols to the left and right.
01:01:44 <orbitaldecay> I think what you''re calling symbol I would call term?
01:02:20 <imode> can't be sure, I don't know what you'd call a term. to me, a term is, essentially, just a tree.
01:02:58 <orbitaldecay> I'd call a term something you can define with one line of bnf
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01:34:50 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72831 * UltimateProGrammer * (+1540) Add everything
01:41:27 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72832&oldid=72831 * UltimateProGrammer * (+99) Add cats
01:45:41 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72833&oldid=72832 * UltimateProGrammer * (+120) Added IO
01:47:56 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72834&oldid=72833 * UltimateProGrammer * (+55) Added example
01:55:10 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72835&oldid=72834 * UltimateProGrammer * (+35) Fixed grammar and specified better
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02:11:59 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72836&oldid=72835 * UltimateProGrammer * (+146) Added divisible by 3 example WIP
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05:01:43 <zzo38> How to make global variables in unnamed unions in C?
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05:20:17 <imode> zzo38: you want a union as a global variable?
05:27:14 <zzo38> Well, I want a unnamed union as a global variable. GNU C supports unnamed structs and unions inside of other structs and unions.
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05:43:49 <imode> I think you can just do it the same way you declare an unnamed struct as a global variable. assuming you don't want to name the type.
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05:50:49 <zzo38> One consideration to make in TeXnicard is kerning/ligatures between accented characters (if the precomposed character isn't already in the font). I think TeX does not attempt it at all, although I have a bit different idea.
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05:54:56 <zzo38> My idea is that ligatures between accented characters are still disabled, although kerns are sometimes acceptable. A positive kern always works; a negative kern will only be used if the height and depth of the characters involved is such that the unaccented character will not move closer to the accent mark if the height and depth of the unaccented character does not reach the position of the accent mark.
05:55:17 <zzo38> Does this seem reasonable enough?
05:57:52 <zzo38> (I also have ideas about how to do precomposed accented characters, which might or might not have associated glyphs; if they don't, they will be decomposed when it is time to print them.)
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09:36:50 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
09:41:40 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0xdc
09:44:02 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0110
09:44:06 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0210
09:44:09 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0310
09:45:16 <int-e> mov %rsp,%cr3 sounds adventerous
09:46:54 <shachaf> I had it in my HackEso /msg window from a while ago. Not sure what was going on there.
09:47:07 <int-e> are those 3 all valid?
09:47:35 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0010
09:48:01 <shachaf> https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/mov-1 says "0F 22 /r MOV CR0–CR7, r64"
09:50:23 <HackEso> 0: 44 0f 22 c0 mov %rax,%cr8
09:51:05 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0300
09:51:51 <shachaf> Oh, that makes sense, actually.
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09:52:07 <shachaf> I saw a different instruction listed for CR8 and I was, like, whoa, dude, but it's just extended with a REX bit as usual.
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09:55:16 <wib_jonas> zzo38 re global variables in unnamed unions in C => you can't. nor can you make function-local variables in unnamed union as the top level. I looked that up once. the workaround, as you'd expect, is to use a named union.
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09:56:11 <shachaf> This is some sneaky C preprocessor trickery: https://gist.github.com/pkhuong/8e575dcade519d42436a302e9c8a5844#file-test-c
09:56:48 <shachaf> I didn't think you could do that.
09:58:00 <wib_jonas> zzo38 re ligatures on accented characters => for latin and greek scripts, in natural languages we just precomposed characters for every possible accented combination, even when it's 138 or so Vietnamese letters.
09:58:59 <wib_jonas> that's unless you want to write stuff that only goes into linguists writing about phonetics, with accented characters that you'd only put in a dictionary or scholarly article, in which case they're screwed and we don't care.
10:00:00 <wib_jonas> There's still some hackery with sets of accented letters that are considered the same unicode character but have a different appearance or different case folding rules depending on which language it's used for.
10:01:59 <wib_jonas> These are tricky, ideally you treat them as glyph variants for the same character that have a default glyph that depends on the language, but they cause annoyance because you have to define extra APIs that you only ever use if you typeset vietnamese or turkish or serbian/macedonian cyrillic words.
10:02:54 <wib_jonas> The serbian/macedonian thing may have been a mistake IMO; with the turkish you're screwed no matter what you do; and I don't have an opinion about vietnamese.
10:15:49 <Mysteryhunter> https://twitter.com/MysteryNewsTV/status/1264861721023438848
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10:20:19 <int-e> Mysteryhunter: that seems to be unironic, so you have the wrong channel
10:20:33 <int-e> `relcome Mysteryhunter
10:20:35 <HackEso> Mysteryhunter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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10:52:46 <wib_jonas> does EVERYONE have to invent their own representation for the enum type that can represent one of the IEEE 754 rounding modes? x86 uses 0=nearest, 1=down, 2=up, 3=zero; MMIX rA register uses 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=up, 3=down, but the Z argument of instructions uses 1=nearest, 2=up, 3=down, 4=zero; the MPFR library uses 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=up,
10:52:47 <wib_jonas> 3=down, 4=away from zero, 5=faithful; Bellard's libraries use 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=down, 3=up, 4=C round, 5=away from zero, 6=faithful.
10:53:54 <int-e> . o O ( round to zero is the easiest to implement )
10:53:56 <wib_jonas> why didn't people just copy whatever the earliest representation was, such as the 80287, at least for the four standard modes?
10:54:09 <int-e> Note: *to*, not *towards*.
10:55:19 <int-e> now to figure out what "faithful" is... round to even on a tie?
10:55:39 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, I know. nearest is actually round to nearest with ties to even; down is round towards minus infinity; up is round towards plus infinity; zero is round towards zero;
10:56:20 <wib_jonas> int-e: faithful is non-deterministically round towards plus infinity or towards minus infinity, depending on the input values
10:56:54 <wib_jonas> it's a weird optimization that may or may not be useful in some cases, especially for transcendent functions
10:56:55 <int-e> +1 with probability <fractional part>
10:57:16 <int-e> somthing like that that's correct in the expected value?
10:58:08 <wib_jonas> C round is actually round to nearest but ties away from zero, this is used for only one fucking legacy case, the "round" function in C, which is a function that nobody uses or should use, but it was in K&R so we can't get rid of it
10:59:15 <wib_jonas> int-e: no, not correct in the expected value, it's nondeterministic in the sense that it returns whichever is convenient to optimize the function globally (for every possible input argument)
10:59:23 <wib_jonas> it doesn't try to be correct in expected value
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11:09:27 <wib_jonas> and then there's one more possible rounding mode not represented here, MIX rounding, which means round to nearest, but round ties to even unless the floating point exponent base is divisible by 4, in which case round to odd instead.
11:11:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baidicoot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72837 * OsmineYT * (+111) Created page with "== Swedway == This is pain. -- ~~~~"
11:11:45 <wib_jonas> but this is also one of the legacy modes that don't come up anymore, because everyone uses floating point with exponent base of either 2 or 10, in which case it's just the normal round to nearest with ties to even mode.
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11:30:01 <wib_jonas> the ARMv8 floating point control register FPCR apparently uses 0=nearest, 1=up, 2=down, 3=zero, the same as the MMIX control register rA.
11:35:18 <int-e> @check \ä -> ä == ()
11:37:42 <moony> wib_jonas: I wonder if that's a coincidence or not
11:38:21 <wib_jonas> moony: there are only so many ways you can sanely encode these four modes to two bits
11:38:45 <wib_jonas> what I don't understand is where Bellard's code got that representation
11:39:02 <wib_jonas> although wait, that part of the code doesn't originate from Bellard
11:39:10 <wib_jonas> who's the original author, let me check
11:40:14 <wib_jonas> ah, wait, this gets more complicated
11:44:14 <Mysteryhunter> hey man do you also have this problem with some guys in IRC which makes me just going nuts
11:44:45 <wib_jonas> no, apparently the small softfp is by Bellard, and it uses 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=down, 3=up, and this is also what Bellard's libbf uses (with extra modes); but the larger qemu softfloat by John R. Hauser, which if I understand is derived from the smaller one, uses 0=nearest, 1=down, 2=up, 3=zero, 4=C round, which is the same as x86's encoding, so
11:45:10 <wib_jonas> it still doesn't explain where Bellard got those values from
11:45:48 <Mysteryhunter> like dumb people trying to provocate me or insulting me or such things
11:46:29 <moony> Mysteryhunter: i think this is the wrong channel for that kind of discussion :p
11:48:00 <wib_jonas> there are also mutually incompatible single-letter abbreviations: N sometimes means nearest, sometimes means down (as in towards Negative infinity)
11:51:25 <wib_jonas> I think I'll avoid single-letter abbreviations
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11:52:54 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72838 * Hakerh400 * (+5594) +[[Parentheses only]]
11:52:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72839&oldid=72822 * Hakerh400 * (+23) +[[Parentheses only]]
11:52:59 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72840&oldid=72823 * Hakerh400 * (+23) +[[Parentheses only]]
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12:00:54 <wib_jonas> seriously, this is crazy. I've seen small enums that were encoded in two incompatible ways, and larger enums (like errno or signals or unix system calls) encoded in multiple ways, but this enum with four values mapped to 0..3 in three ways takes the cake
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12:19:28 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72841&oldid=72838 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) cat
12:19:36 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72842&oldid=72841 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Interpreters */
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13:13:24 <ais523> wib_jonas: a while back, there was a situation where someone was trying to sell a commercial derivative of some GPL'ed code, and they had (as legally required) released the source, so I tried to get it to compile but the toolchain was insane
13:13:36 <ais523> I almost managed to do so, but with the issue that I couldn't link in libm without everything breaking
13:13:43 <ais523> so instead, I reimplemented all the libm functions it was using
13:13:57 <ais523> one of them was round; I replaced round(x) with (int)(x+0.5)
13:15:30 <wib_jonas> I guess it doesn't matter for this
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13:16:13 <rain1> do you want a problem
13:16:38 <rain1> put 3*n balls in box A. there are 3 boxes. in step k you must move k balls to another box.
13:16:47 <ais523> which probably isn't quite mathematically perfect but should be close enough
13:16:48 <rain1> by step n you can have n balls in each box
13:17:02 <ais523> wib_jonas: 1, but indeed it doesn't matter much
13:17:18 <ais523> 3 would be relevant in that if the build instructions were insufficient, the derivative would be illegal
13:17:22 <wib_jonas> there's a GPL1? I thought they numbered it from 2
13:17:37 <ais523> there was, it isn't used any more, it's really buggy
13:17:46 <ais523> and I'm not sure there was a single standardised version of it
13:17:56 <ais523> but rather lots of tweaked versions, a little like MIT and BSD nowadays
13:18:02 <Arcorann_> There's at least one Tetris clone licensed under GPL1, back when it was new
13:20:02 <wib_jonas> what I'd like is an MIT-like license, that is, just a sticky disclaimer of warranties, but with the special property that where it allows anyone to redistribute identical or derived versions, it explicitly says "perpetual worldwide" or words to such effect.
13:20:33 <wib_jonas> I'm uneasy by the licences not stating those explicitly, I'm worried that it will bite *someone* *somewhere* eventually
13:21:24 <moony> ais523: doesn't the x+0.5 method of round have trouble with negatives?
13:21:43 <ais523> moony: ah right, I think it does
13:21:50 <ais523> e.g. -2.2 would round to -1 which is obviously wrong
13:22:00 <wib_jonas> moony: yes, and also with numbers larger than an int, but presumably that didn't matter in the particular source code file that ais edited
13:22:02 <ais523> but the number in question was always positive
13:23:38 <moony> also, on a different note: Texas Instruments is pulling support for assembly programs on the TI-84 Plus
13:23:52 <moony> new versions of the OS will no longer support ASM programs
13:23:56 <wib_jonas> moony: what exactly would "pulling support" mean?
13:24:03 <moony> wib_jonas: they no longer run.
13:24:26 <moony> they're removing the functionality entirely
13:24:49 <wib_jonas> you can't make them run at all? like, you have to root your calculator before you can even technically run one, as opposed to they just aren't willing to give help and documentation and tell you to run them at your own risk?
13:25:02 <moony> You have to roll back the OS or use a different OS, yes.
13:25:44 <ais523> by asm do you mean actual asm, or do you mean machine code?
13:25:55 <wib_jonas> is there a money-back guarantee with this, where you can get your money back if you claim that you bought the calculator because you wanted to run machine code programs too and get updates?
13:26:05 <moony> ais523: machine code. The official OS has no assembler.
13:26:17 <moony> wib_jonas: I haven't a clue
13:26:43 <moony> at least the security keys for the OS have been an open secret for a long time now
13:26:54 <moony> so "rooting" the device isn't very hard
13:27:24 <moony> they claim they did this to prevent cheating, but imo it doesn't really change anything at all
13:33:14 <rain1> does anyone want to play nim?
13:33:22 <ais523> nim is a solved game, isn't it?
13:33:38 <ais523> A:3 B:1 C:2 is I believe the correct solution there
13:33:51 <ais523> regardless of whether you're playing "all-zeroes wins" or "all-zeroes loses"
13:34:01 <ais523> OK, now I need to know the victory condition to play my next move
13:34:31 <ais523> if all-zeroes wins, I play A:1 B:1 C:0
13:35:49 <ais523> I feel like knowing the solution to a solved game is the sort of skill that could come in handy if you could persuade other people to play it for money, or the like
13:36:11 <rain1> i was surprised you knew a winning move regardless of win condition
13:36:59 <ais523> it only matters at the point when the winning move is to reduce the board to some number of 1s and some number of 0s
13:37:19 <ais523> at the time you do that, you're reducing a 2 or higher (otherwise the board would be in the some-number-of-1s-some-number-of-0s situation already)
13:37:31 <ais523> so depending the win condition you reduce it to either a 0 or a 1 to produce an odd or an even number of 1s
13:37:50 <ais523> * depending on the win condition
13:38:17 <ais523> in all the previous moves, the win condition doesn't matter because if you give the opponent the opportunity to reduce to just 1s and 0s you've lost anyway
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13:46:23 <wib_jonas> I think unqualified Num means the game where all zeroes wins, and there's some fancy name for the one where all zeroes loses
13:47:57 <wib_jonas> also I've read the solution for all zeroes loses once, but I didn't really remember it, so I couldn't have given the winning moves for that for certain
13:48:01 <ais523> it's "misere" with an accent, but I forget which accent and which letter it goes on
13:48:06 <ais523> (although the first e looks like a plausible place)
13:48:41 <ais523> "misère", I just looked it up
13:49:04 <ais523> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mis%C3%A8re
13:49:10 <ais523> apparently the term is more general than just Nim
13:49:25 <ais523> "2. In which a player unable to move wins."
13:49:42 <ais523> I wasn't expecting to see a definition so precisely applicable in a general-purpose dictionary
13:50:59 <wib_jonas> well, wiktionary might not be a typical dictionary for such technical terms
13:52:26 <fizzie> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mis%C3%A8re just has the noun.
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13:55:00 <ais523> I've long thought that in chess, being stalemated should count as a win (this is more interesting than the variant where being stalemated counts as a loss)
13:55:06 <ais523> presumably, that's technically misère chess
13:55:31 <zzo38> ais523: I have seen that idea before, I think.
13:55:52 <ais523> also è is such a pain to type, the grave accent is typed on this layout as altgr-# and because it's a UK keyboard, # is three keys to the right of L, way beyond my normal typing position
14:09:16 <zzo38> wib_jonas: Well, I am not using Unicode, so I have neither the problems nor the benefits of it. Instead, my idea is an extension of the font metric file; each font declares its own precomposed characters (if any).
14:10:19 <zzo38> If you specify a base and accent separately, it will select the precomposed character instead if it is present; if there is no glyph for a precomposed character, it will automatically be decomposed for display (whether the precomposed character was entered explicitly or whether it was automatically converted into the precomposed character).
14:11:03 <wib_jonas> zzo38: sure, but that doesn't change much of what you need here, except when "not using Unicode" means a legacy system like an old text mode video card or printer that can only have a very limited number of precomposed glyphs
14:11:05 <zzo38> But what I mentioned before about ligatures and kerns was for the case where there is no precomposed variant in the font.
14:12:21 <zzo38> (Specifically, that ligatures are always disabled, positive kerns are always enabled, and negative kerns are sometimes enabled or sometimes disabled depending on the height of the adjacent characters.)
14:18:58 <zzo38> I have not actually tried this, so I don't know if this output looks reasonable and whether it is better or worse than what TeX does, but do you know?
14:21:02 <wib_jonas> I don't know, because I think non-precomposed accents don't really come up, outside of math mode, but math mode has very different rules for kerning anyway
14:23:46 <zzo38> The Computer Modern fonts have no precomposed accents, and TeX doesn't have the ability to automatically select a precomposed character when an accent is specified anyways (unless you enter the precomposed character explicitly, which is probably what you would do if you are writing a document in a language other than English, anyways).
14:28:18 <wib_jonas> zzo38: yes, precomposing the accents is implemented in TeX by LaTeX packages, but you usually enter the precomposed character in some encoding, which is also implemented in TeX by some LaTeX packages
14:29:17 <wib_jonas> precomposed characters are necessary both for kerning and for hyphenation
14:30:01 <zzo38> Yes, I did just think of hyphenation, when you mentioned LaTeX packages
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14:31:49 <wib_jonas> implemented by some combination of LaTeX core, and the fontenc, babel, and inputenc LaTeX packages, but I don't know more specifically
14:32:51 <zzo38> I probably do not need to implement hyphenation in TeXnicard (do any card games need it?), although of course the user can still use precomposed accents if they are using a suitable font.
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14:33:23 <ais523> I can imagine that card games that wanted a large font size might want hyphenation
14:33:33 <ais523> because when using a large font size there isn't much space on the card
14:34:00 <wib_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. does TeXnicard want to remain specific to card games, or are you planning to widen its purpose?
14:34:15 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I suppose that is possible, maybe
14:34:59 <zzo38> wib_jonas: If the purpose is widened, it would probably still only be used for producing decks of cards, even if the cards are not used in a game.
14:35:15 <zzo38> (It isn't intended to be used for typesetting documents.)
14:35:15 <wib_jonas> zzo38: are you even sure that there isn't some obscure M:tG card that uses hyphenation?
14:35:38 <zzo38> wib_jonas: No, although if you know of one, please mention it.
14:35:40 <ais523> if there is it's probably from Alpha or some similarly early set
14:36:27 <wib_jonas> zzo38: https://scryfall.com/card/unh/107/ though you won't find that hyphenation point automatically
14:36:48 <ais523> wow, Alpha's font size is ridiculously variable
14:37:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yoel * New user account
14:39:27 <ais523> Lure in Alpha is hyphenated
14:39:35 <HackEso> Lure \ 1GG \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so. \ A-U, B-U, U-U, RV-U, 4E-U, IA-U, 5E-U, 6E-U, MM-U, 7E-U, 8ED-U, CHK-U, 10E-U, M12-U, IMA-U \ \ Lure of Prey \ 2GG \ Instant \ Cast this spell only if an opponent cast a creature spell this turn. \ You may put a green creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. \ MI-R \ \ Lurebound Scarecrow \ 3 \ Artifact Creature -- Scarecrow
14:39:56 <ais523> also its wording in Alpha is so much more complicated than the Oracle text :-)
14:40:12 <ais523> https://scryfall.com/card/lea/211/lure
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14:40:43 <zzo38> wib_jonas: Yes, OK, well probably at least at first, I wouldn't implement any hyphenation, but I don't know about in future (but of course someone else can contribute an implementation if they need that feature somehow). Although the unusual formatting in Un-sets is unlikely to be able to be typeset automatically by any program I think (although TeXnicard might still be capable of making the card database).
14:41:25 <ais523> looks like the hyphens stayed until fourth edition
14:42:08 <wib_jonas> ais523: yeah, it has hyphenation even in revised, which means I might have even seen a hyphenated revised card somewhere (not Lure specifically)
14:45:15 <zzo38> I think some writers don't like hyphenation, anyways
14:46:19 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72843&oldid=72836 * UltimateProGrammer * (+793) Added FizzBuzz Example and Optional Commands
14:47:43 <zzo38> Or maybe I could just add support for manually specified hyphens like the \discretionary command in TeX. I found a implementation of the TeX hyphenation in PostScript, so I suppose if someone really wants hyphenation in TeXnicard, they can adapt that PostScript program for use with TeXnicard.
14:48:19 <wib_jonas> it's possible that *modern* M:tG cards don't use hyphenation though, and so it might not be required to support hyphenation if you're making a program to typeset new cards
14:48:46 <ais523> I think TeXnicard isn't meant to be specific to M:tG? just to games in general that are made out of cards with rules on them?
14:48:59 <ais523> (not necessarily even TCGs)
14:49:04 <zzo38> ais523: That is correct.
14:49:57 <wib_jonas> sure, M:tG is just the collectible card game that I'm the most familiar with
14:50:31 <ais523> I'm probably more familiar with Android: Netrunner at this point
14:50:48 <ais523> although I haven't played it much recently bcause the online site isn't very friendly to network problems
14:53:19 <wib_jonas> https://scryfall.com/card/3ed/80/sirens-call another uncommon from Revised that has hyphenation
14:55:49 <zzo38> One of the hyphens there (in "non-wall") is probably explicit, at least.
14:57:10 <wib_jonas> zzo38, ais523: here's a modern hyphenation: https://scryfall.com/card/iko/34/de/blitzsturm-capridor
14:58:13 <ais523> wib_jonas: that's a hard hyphen, not a soft hyphen
14:58:34 <wib_jonas> ais523: no it's not, not inside Kampfschaden
14:58:49 <int-e> Mysteryhunter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone
14:59:29 <Mysteryhunter> u.wanna.tell.me.who.has.as.desktop.wallpaper.all.timezones.anything.about.timezones?
15:00:38 <zzo38> The first hyphen seems to be a soft hyphen, the second one hard (based on the text to the right of the picture of the card; I don't know the German words)
15:01:00 <zzo38> Mysteryhunter: Some German word presumably (I don't know what it means). But, what aren't you writing spaces?
15:01:14 <wib_jonas> ais523: compare to https://scryfall.com/card/grn/204/de/tajic-klinge-der-legion where Kampfschaden is not hyphenated, and that's also a recent card so the spelling probably hasn't changed
15:02:45 <wib_jonas> similarly https://scryfall.com/card/m20/132/de/chandras-feuerspucker doesn't hyphenate it
15:02:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72844&oldid=72770 * Yoel * (+185)
15:03:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72845&oldid=54802 * Yoel * (+471) /* Converting to Roman numerals */ new section
15:03:33 <zzo38> Mysteryhunter: O, OK, "something like fight damage" makes sense in context.
15:03:35 <Mysteryhunter> yea.there.coffee.and.this.was.energydrink.with.the.curreent.keyboard
15:04:01 <fungot> int-e: so read isn't a function. vs. explicit cps does not necessarily rely on the properties of atoms fall out of fashion as opposed to informal.
15:04:26 <Mysteryhunter> https://twitter.com/MysteryNewsTV/status/1264861721023438848
15:05:18 <zzo38> Corona beer is not related to corona virus, anyways, though.
15:05:32 <int-e> But I guess there's always /ignore.
15:06:46 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72846&oldid=72649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-144) "not proven TC" followed directly by "not TC but BSM"
15:07:26 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72847&oldid=72846 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Counter-argument */
15:09:46 <zzo38> Yes, and some people like that beer but some people don't like the Corona beer.
15:09:50 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72848&oldid=72843 * UltimateProGrammer * (+156) Added better unicode support
15:09:56 <moony> Mysteryhunter: I think you're in the wrong place. This isn't a chat channel.
15:10:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72849&oldid=72813 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+266)
15:10:46 <Mysteryhunter> so.i'm.a.little.tipsy?(right.word).from.the.one.corona.and.few.drams.of.the.second
15:11:04 <Mysteryhunter> ok.with.the.next.connect.i.leave.got.this.channel.out.of.my.list
15:11:14 <Mysteryhunter> but.till.then.we.can.at.least.have.a.good.time.or.not?
15:11:17 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam%E2%80%93Warburton_automaton
15:11:36 <moony> Mysteryhunter: you can do /part to leave. Also, I think people here are more interested in discussing computing.
15:11:59 <moony> Freenode is lacking on discussion channels.
15:12:03 <esowiki> [[Jot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72850&oldid=63797 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External resources */ cat
15:12:05 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72851&oldid=72848 * UltimateProGrammer * (+3) fixed grammar
15:12:19 <Mysteryhunter> yes.as.i.said.with.the.next.connection.to.freenode.i.wont.be.in.this.channel.nomore.got.it.out.of.my.list.because.of.what.you.was.sayin
15:12:51 <rain1> The beginnings of automata go back to a conversation Ulam had with Stanislaw Mazur in a coffee house in Lwów Poland when Ulam was twenty in 1929.[11] Ulam worked with John von Neumann during the war years when they became good friends and discussed cellular automaton. Von Neumann’s used these ideas in his concept of a universal constructor and the digital computer. Ulam focussed on biological and
15:12:57 <rain1> ‘crystal like’ patterns publishing a sketch of the growth of a square based cell structure using a simple rule in 1962
15:14:07 <zzo38> rain1: O, I didn't know that.
15:16:34 <zzo38> Mysteryhunter: Do you put timezones in your desktop wallpaper? I don't know of anyone who does; I don't need to deal with timezones that much
15:17:26 <ais523> if I click on the clock on my taskbar-equivalent, it shows times in London, New York, Los Angeles, and UTC
15:17:39 <ais523> I configured it that way to make it easier to understand times stated by Americans
15:17:57 <zzo38> ais523: OK, that makes sense
15:18:50 <zzo38> If I needed such a thing I would probably just make a shell csript which displays times in different timezones
15:20:00 <Mysteryhunter> this.girl.here.is.von.california.he's.from.india.he.from.arabia
15:21:04 <zzo38> On the IRC I can usually see what timezone someone is (if I need that information, which I usually don't) using the TIME client command
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15:22:53 <zzo38> The Ulam-Warburton automaton is one I have seen and used before, although I didn't know it was called that until today.
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15:53:03 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72852&oldid=72842 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Computation */ Update the specification
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16:01:15 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72853&oldid=72828 * Orby * (+448)
16:01:36 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72854&oldid=72853 * Orby * (+2) /* More thoughts */
16:05:56 <kspalaiologos> I'm planning to implement one for asm2bf, and I've even got the master Brainfuck programmer to aid me in writing microcode
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16:24:46 <ais523> when someone wrote an FPU for INTERCAL, it was based on IEEE float notation, but without denormals, infinities, and similar weird sorts of float
16:25:05 <ais523> that seems like a sensible place to start, potentially
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16:50:36 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72855&oldid=72852 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Computation */
16:51:50 <esowiki> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72856&oldid=44374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Interpreters */ cat
16:52:08 <esowiki> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72857&oldid=72856 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) style
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17:03:40 <imode> I see someone was here to hear me ask about the parentheses thing.
17:05:36 <int-e> fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/ seems to be having trouble
17:06:41 <fizzie> I really need to properly debug that thing. All I can tell is that it's got something to do with the stalker mode, and *appears* to be a bug in the civetweb server's websocket support, but it's entirely possible that I'm just using it wrong.
17:08:03 <fizzie> I've restarted it, and it's working again for me. For a little while, anyway.
17:15:38 <fizzie> Here's a random question -- what do you call C++ header files? I've always done .cc for sources, and just used .h for headers, but I'm getting a little tired of adding "// Local Variables:\n// mode: c++\n// End:\n" at the end of every such file in order for Emacs to realize they need c++-mode.
17:15:50 <fizzie> Maybe I should go with .hh then.
17:16:35 <fizzie> I'd need to switch using .cpp for the sources for that, because .cc / .hpp would be just silly.
17:17:18 <imode> I haven't heard of people using .cc.
17:17:52 <imode> I take that back, I think I've seen some projects using that.
17:19:38 <fizzie> Google C++ style uses .cc with plain .h, although I think I adopted that before I knew.
17:20:32 * int-e is using .cc and .h, has considered .hh.
17:21:05 <fizzie> Someone must've probably data-mined GitHub to figure out the relative popularity of each extension.
17:21:15 <int-e> .cpp reminds me of the C preprocessor.
17:22:17 <fizzie> The ones I've heard of are .cpp, .cc, .cxx, .c++ and .C. The last isn't particularly friendly to case-insensitive (esp. non-case-preserving) filesystems.
17:22:50 <int-e> I imagine .c++ also causes trouble on some file systems
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17:27:11 <zzo38> I have mostly seen .cpp, with .h for the header files.
17:28:29 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72858&oldid=72855 * Hakerh400 * (-181) /* Computation */ Group A must have at least two elements at that point, so that sentence was redundant
17:29:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: I call them .h except when I add a new header to a project that already has a filename convention for this
17:30:03 <int-e> no, .hi is taken for Haskell interface files ;)
17:32:17 <zzo38> GCC accepts .cc, .cp, .cxx, .cpp, .CPP, .c++, and .C.
17:33:21 <arseniiv> <int-e> .cpp reminds me of the C preprocessor. => . o O ( C’goheaderomorphic preprocessomorphism )
17:33:31 <zzo38> I don't know, but it isn't listed in the man page
17:35:04 <zzo38> (For header files, the extension is irrelevant unless you want to compile the header files alone, which GCC does implement.)
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17:45:19 <arseniiv> my friend suggested .c which is a three-character extension ending with two `U+2064 INVISIBLE PLUS`es
17:47:21 <rain1> i checked U+2064, it's real
17:48:27 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_zmZ23grXE
17:48:42 <fizzie> It also appears to accept .hh, .H, .hp, .hxx, .hpp, .HPP, .h++ and .tcc as C++-specific header extensions.
17:48:53 <arseniiv> rain1: of course it’s real, duh. We live in U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES :D
17:49:45 <fizzie> `quote INVISIBLE TIMES
17:49:46 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
17:50:05 <arseniiv> and now he suggested .c⧺ (U+29FA DOUBLE PLUS)
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17:51:24 <fizzie> .c‡ might also be an option.
17:52:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: if you want to write a floating point unit, look at https://bellard.org/softfp/ , which contains the original softfp library by Bellard as well as the larger qemu softfloat library that emulates almost enough operations to be used in qemu for the rare non-hardware-accelerated floating point case
17:53:09 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: plus obviously look at TAOCP chapter 4
17:53:17 <kspalaiologos> I've got a better idea on implementing my floating point stuff
17:53:30 <arseniiv> fizzie: ‡ isn’t that quite a double dagger to shoot oneself in the leg with
17:53:33 <kspalaiologos> IEEE754 and such are the worst thing to implement in Brainfuck
17:53:47 <kspalaiologos> my system will be simply based on fractions, mostly on performance / size / simplicity ratio
17:54:00 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr28DwXeyu0
17:54:02 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: for that I can just say that I wouldn't want to implement anything in brainfuck
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17:54:24 <b_jonas> and if implementing IEEE754 is hard, that is just another extra evidence for that
17:54:34 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, well, you won't implement, while I'm willing to
17:54:49 <b_jonas> ok, I'm just giving a hint
17:54:49 <kspalaiologos> and so far IEEE754 is the worst way to approach this problem
17:55:00 <b_jonas> I'm not saying that you should use that library as is
17:55:12 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: the best floating point is a fixed point :?
17:55:17 <rain1> http://www.ventrella.com/Clusters/
17:55:37 <kspalaiologos> but it's quite hard to write performant routines for that
17:58:56 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: oh, have you also heard about posit arithmetic and something like that? I think I asked about them here but now I absolutely don’t remember what the opinion on their usefulness or novelty was
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18:14:04 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72859&oldid=65448 * Gamer * (-195)
18:14:40 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72860&oldid=72859 * Gamer * (+88)
18:15:58 <arseniiv> rain1: I saw this interesting idea at CodeParade’s channel too but it seems underdeveloped for me so far. You can get many behaviors that way, but I think not as many as one’d want. Also I’m afraid numeric errors may have unwanted effects on the simulation when doing it with different time steps(?)
18:16:19 <rain1> yeah i think that's a valid concern
18:16:35 <rain1> it's less deep than cellular automata, because they are more exact
18:17:15 <arseniiv> also have anybody seen CA on a random(ish) tesselations of a plane? I think the idea is old but I haven’t seen its implementations (I think)
18:17:48 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72861&oldid=69683 * Gamer * (-31) /* Computational class */
18:19:59 <arseniiv> <rain1> it's less deep than cellular automata, because they are more exact => OTOH I think it would be interesting to watch a particle or cellular automaton which uses a controlled randomness, something like temperature in simulated annealing. For example particles could appear and vanish out of nowhere, or cell states change; maybe not all kinds of particles and not all kinds of states being inflicted
18:21:57 <arseniiv> it reminds me my few experiments with a random and… unlearned neural net which I used to make stereo sounds (by taking the output from two randomly preselected neurons), which for the sake of fun was slowly mutated (via adding random values to its weight matrix) with a specified rate
18:23:03 <arseniiv> if someone is even interested, here are several interesting results (a small part of those I generated, and even those were manually generated so in principle there could be much more interesting pieces)
18:23:44 <arseniiv> https://freesound.org/people/arseniiv/packs/22686/
18:26:39 <arseniiv> if I only would come up with a simple way to randomize a weight matrix in much more interesting ways than just independent uniform variates, then maybe interesting sounds would come in abundance (for some extent)
18:27:31 <arseniiv> (I’d be very glad to hear something if someone will come up with more interesting results!)
18:31:03 <arseniiv> oh, I forgot to warn that these sounds are pretty harsh
18:31:33 <arseniiv> hopefully that’s expected of sounds by an untrained neural net
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18:37:10 <arseniiv> main sources of harshness there are probably strong distortion due to tanh and the sample rate, as cyclic processes with frequencies only a small integer divisor less than the Nyquist frequency are expected to be very common there
18:38:58 <imode> that particle automaton is pretty impressive but ultimately not robust enough for what traditional CAs are intended for.
18:45:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72862&oldid=72845 * Yoel * (-25) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
18:45:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72863&oldid=72862 * Yoel * (+0) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
19:22:49 <esowiki> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72864&oldid=72776 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Hello, World! */
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19:46:23 <esowiki> [[Hev]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72867&oldid=10346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* External resources */ update link
19:52:04 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72868&oldid=72786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Loop while no input program */
19:54:51 <esowiki> [[Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72869&oldid=68971 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9)
20:00:20 <esowiki> [[User:Marinus/Unreadable Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72870&oldid=18597 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8)
20:05:11 <esowiki> [[Pluso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72871&oldid=58304 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* Ruby */ cats
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20:17:20 <HackEso> olist 1203: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:18:28 <esowiki> [[Morsefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72873&oldid=65155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+98) cats
20:21:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Myth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72874&oldid=52169 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) unsigned
20:26:51 <esowiki> [[MNNBFSL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72875&oldid=41697 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Burlesque */ deadlink
20:32:48 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72876&oldid=58524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) fix link
20:36:32 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72877&oldid=71804 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104)
20:36:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72878&oldid=72877 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-104) Blanked the page
20:37:34 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72879&oldid=72025 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Computational class */ cat
20:40:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72880&oldid=72773 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53)
20:42:40 <esowiki> [[Minimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72881&oldid=62327 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* External resources */ cats (it was created in 2009, not 2010)
20:44:37 <esowiki> [[Enigma-2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72882&oldid=65888 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) cats
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20:48:43 <esowiki> [[Dd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72883&oldid=69301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4)
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20:54:34 <esowiki> [[BFI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72884&oldid=15590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* External resources */ cat
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21:22:52 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72885&oldid=72851 * UltimateProGrammer * (+28) Added joke language cat
21:26:09 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72886&oldid=72645 * UltimateProGrammer * (+67) Add spaghetti script
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22:07:43 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72887&oldid=72885 * UltimateProGrammer * (+10) Specified that functions must be positive
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22:40:52 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72888&oldid=72691 * Digital Hunter * (+379) /* The Language */
22:42:58 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72889&oldid=72888 * Digital Hunter * (+163) /* If Statements */ just a note
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23:30:11 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72890&oldid=72574 * Digital Hunter * (+593) /* Implementations */ Added an entry for Surtic.
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23:42:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nispenispe * New user account
23:49:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72891&oldid=72844 * Nispenispe * (+192) Did the thing. I think
23:49:27 <esowiki> [[Var'aq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72892&oldid=46923 * Nispenispe * (-4) Reocities is offline. Oocities is the latest geocities mirror site.