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00:44:49 <esowiki> [[Proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73270&oldid=16530 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Setting variables */ cats
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02:50:20 <zzo38> Does Google Groups have cross-posting? I suspect that maybe it doesn't.
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04:07:05 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73271 * Simplemaker * (+3062) LS Basic is a dialect of BASIC which interprets sums of letters.
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04:09:26 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73272&oldid=73271 * Simplemaker * (+72) /* Arithmetic */
04:10:22 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73273&oldid=73272 * Simplemaker * (+97)
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04:11:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73274&oldid=73215 * Simplemaker * (+15) /* L */
04:16:03 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73275&oldid=73273 * Simplemaker * (+198)
04:18:03 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73276&oldid=73275 * Simplemaker * (-2) /* Obfuscated Version */
04:21:09 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73277&oldid=73276 * Simplemaker * (+794)
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05:51:29 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73278&oldid=73238 * Shaman * (+3) /* Description */
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05:57:58 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73279&oldid=73278 * Shaman * (+312)
06:01:24 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73280&oldid=73279 * Shaman * (+53) /* Description */
06:03:09 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73281&oldid=73280 * Shaman * (-4)
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06:15:50 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73282&oldid=73281 * Yoel * (+93)
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06:17:35 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73283&oldid=73282 * Yoel * (+21) /* See also */
06:26:08 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73284&oldid=73188 * Yoel * (+176)
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06:54:43 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73285 * Yoel * (+5479) Created page with "A '''Markov algorithm''', names after the Soviet mathematician Andrey Markov, Jr., is a string rewriting system that uses replacement rules to operate on a string of symbols...."
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07:12:31 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73286&oldid=73285 * Yoel * (-27)
07:21:39 <esowiki> [[Markov algorithm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73287&oldid=73286 * B jonas * (+10) /* See also */
07:24:15 <b_jonas> @tell arseniiv Unless an antipodan volunteers, you're the #esoteric Official Eclipse Observer for tonight (2020-06-05), on account of everyone else is too much to the west
07:25:22 <esowiki> [[1.1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73288&oldid=69605 * B jonas * (+21)
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08:16:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73289&oldid=73237 * Yoel * (+5)
08:30:43 <oren> is it possible to express the julia set or the mandelbrot set in heraldic blazon?
08:35:10 <oren> It would be easy to blazon the sierpinski carpet
08:40:46 <cpressey> I don't know but if you turn the Mandelbrot set on its side it looks a little like an entire heraldic achievement :)
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09:38:29 <wib_jonas> oren: hmm, is there a standard fractal recursion extension for heraldic blazon already, perhaps because there are coats of arms that mutually contain a small copy of each other?
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09:52:20 <fungot> int-e: it's the truth, which i think is the best way
09:55:09 <Taneb> wib_jonas: mise en abyme?
09:56:06 <wib_jonas> Taneb: I tried to web search for recursive coats of arms and found that phrase, but apparently it just means that a section in the middle of a coat of arms is a different coat of arms, and haven't found an actually infinitely recursive example
09:58:43 <int-e> fungot: does this channel weird you out sometimes as well?
09:58:43 <fungot> int-e: that blogger also ircs on qemu if you want
09:58:58 <int-e> fungot: I'll take that as a yes.
09:58:58 <fungot> int-e: fnord/ fnord/ fnord and have scheme render it for you"
09:59:15 <int-e> fungot: Well, that's not very supportive.
09:59:15 <fungot> int-e: here is my error: error: attempt to apply non-procedure ' 2' 50 years ago)
10:00:28 <int-e> Hmm, I thought the quota was 5 messages. Maybe I had one earlier and nobody talked to fungot in the meantime.
10:02:00 <wib_jonas> fungot: Brahms's "Hungarian dances" consists of how many tracks, which track is the most popular, why are the tracks with the low indexes the best, and is that deceptive false advertising like when you put the more fresh fruit on the top of the pile?
10:02:00 <fungot> wib_jonas: 1 cakeprophet: ps
10:02:26 <wib_jonas> int-e: there, now you have one more
10:03:01 <int-e> thanks, I don't know where I'd be without the resident psychotherapist :P
10:04:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
10:05:20 <HackEso> 1246) <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong <fungot> int-e: yes, i know
10:06:52 <wib_jonas> nah, the "yes, i know" is an example of fungot's spambot style that I often see on irc or forums, the sort of statement that a bot could post basically anywhere. that's why I try not to react in chat when new people enter and say only something like "hi", nothing specifically relevant to the current topic or the topic of the chat room
10:06:52 <fungot> wib_jonas: i was wondering about that for now, evoli? or perhaps garbage? i
10:08:04 <wib_jonas> but fungot does often manage to give replies that do seem relevant to our topics, and those are the quotable ones that I enjoy. plus a different class of weird utterances that do seem like they come from a messed up chatbot yet are intrinsically funny for some reason.
10:08:04 <fungot> wib_jonas: you can access them by position. i wonder if i should connect it there. :-p help would be welcome :)
10:12:03 <wib_jonas> ``` quote 1323 # this one, for example, is good because fungot's reply is directly relevant to the previous sentences in a way that seems to requires deep understanding
10:12:03 <fungot> wib_jonas: apparently ms also invented multiple level undo/ redo mechanism by which to extend it with support for concurrency.) didn't take much effort to come up with a nice beginner interactive environment.
10:12:07 <HackEso> 1323) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
10:13:56 <wib_jonas> ``` quote 1194 # here's a worse example: it is a good joke, but not one that's particularly high context, the same reply could apply to many statements
10:13:57 <HackEso> 1194) <olsner> fungot: what do you do to get rid of information you no longer need? <fungot> olsner: emacs lisp for a while
10:14:45 <wib_jonas> shachaf: I said "new people". when they're already someone I've met I may react, because it's much less likely that they're a chatbot
10:15:23 <shachaf> I didn't see that message. I was only saying hi.
10:18:28 * wib_jonas looks up the guide at https://xkcd.com/222/
10:20:12 <shachaf> I wrote a small library for argument parsing in C.
10:29:43 <shachaf> wib_jonas: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/mop/mop.h
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10:39:38 <shachaf> Yes, it's not earth-shattering, but maybe nicer to use than getopt_long.
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14:24:32 <cpressey> I had this idea. ∀ is an abbreviation for a (possibly infinite) sequence of ∧'s, and ∃ is an abbreviation for a (possibly infinite) sequence of ∨'s, right? But ∧ and ∨ are just 2 of the 16 possible binary logical connectives. So there are at least 14 other possible quantifiers! But not all connectives are commutative like ∧ and ∨ are. For any of the non-commutative connectives, you'd need to
14:24:33 <cpressey> make it work on an ordered structure somehow.
14:25:18 <cpressey> But if you're OK with that, then the → quantifier looks to me as if it represents... mathematical induction... ?
14:46:59 <cpressey> The ↔ quantifier is commutative; if we notate it as [↔] then [↔]x.p(x) is equivalent to (∀x.p(x)) ∨ (∀x.¬p(x)) I think
14:49:06 <cpressey> The ⊕ connective (XOR) is also commutative. But, hmm. Maybe that's not enough.
14:53:13 <cpressey> It needs to be idempotent, is that it?
14:57:01 <cpressey> "Idempotent" isn't quite the right word, maybe "monotonic" is better.
15:00:49 <esowiki> [[Nutes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73290&oldid=73283 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) rm redlink
15:02:24 <arseniiv> cpressey: hm interesting but I
15:03:08 <arseniiv> …but I’m afraid there are strong no-go results re. this idea. For example I don’t think → qualifies
15:03:41 <arseniiv> I think first, the operation should be associative, and this denies us → and ↔
15:04:57 <arseniiv> associativity is absolutely needed when we want to define an operation on nonempty lists from an operation on pairs, likewise we need a neutral element to define the operation on empty lists
15:05:50 <arseniiv> hm also I hadn’t thought about operations on circular lists, it would be interesting, but that’s for another conversation
15:12:15 <arseniiv> now, why could ⊕ be a bad choice?.. hm at first it seems why not: it’s associative and has 0 as neutral element, all nice. Though it may be the case idempotence you named is after all the right restriction to add. It means it doesn’t matter how many times we accidentally count the same element in the underlying set, which is quite natural, though for example Σ doesn’t treat its domain that way. On the other hand it doesn’t tr
15:12:16 <arseniiv> eat it that way because usually we sum not over a set, but over a function’s range, which shouldn’t be considered a mere set then, as it allows taking any value a specific number of times, which a mere set doesn’t distinguish
15:12:51 <zzo38> shachaf: I think a problem with that is that it incorrectly outputs non-ASCII characters without checking the locale.
15:17:21 <arseniiv> one can also see that ¬∀ and ¬∃ can’t arise in such a way from some operation, pity. Now we see why ∀ and ∃ have their own symbols but ¬∀ and ∄ have at the best part derivative ones
15:20:28 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73291&oldid=68227 * Simplemaker * (+5) /* Copying values */
15:21:17 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73292&oldid=73291 * Simplemaker * (+7) /* Copying values */
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15:31:59 <cpressey> arseniiv: Oh gosh, is ↔ not associative? I think of it as "equals, except for truth values", and since = is associative... OK, I'll have to think about this more.
15:32:39 <cpressey> Well, ok, no, = isn't associative, we just use it in an abuse of notation where it looks associative: a = b = c
15:33:11 <cpressey> I managed to confuse that with transitive because of that
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15:37:48 <arseniiv> cpressey: that’s no big deal, though a long time ago when I tried to get myself into logic, I got confused by one book where due to a clumsy explanation of a ≡ b ≡ c ≡ … notation I thought that’s the same as ((a ≡ b) ≡ c) ≡ …
15:40:14 <arseniiv> hmmm I have a decent question about computational geometry of tesselations but I don’t know how to state it in brief to not confuse anyone more than necessary
15:56:04 <arseniiv> let’s say it this way: there are a couple of polygonal “prototype tiles” and a (finite) polygonal tesselation seed which is ultimately a set of “concrete tiles” glued to each other. We are to glue a prototype to the seed along an oriented edge of each of them. To do that, we find an euclidean transformation mapping that edge in the prototype to the edge in the seed, and applying that transformation to the prototype, getting a
15:56:05 <arseniiv> new concrete tile. Using floating point arithmetic, this operation adds inaccuracies to the seed’s vertices more and more as we glue new tiles into it. But an ideal tesselation seed is a rigid construction, so there should be a way to recalculate vertices in all the concrete tiles for them to regain some accuracy. Which is the question; what do I have to do to do this?
15:58:43 <arseniiv> why this arises at all: I’m afraid if one makes a core in a form of big thin annulus, then there may be problems filling it inside, let alone there may be a problem closing the annulus in the first place
15:59:11 <cpressey> arseniiv: Can you represent each tile as a composition of the series of euclidean transformations that led up to it?
15:59:28 <arseniiv> or any other state when you glue tiles each time to the new tiles, so the error would accumulate
16:00:01 <arseniiv> but the error would accumulate anyway, wouldn’t it?
16:00:35 <arseniiv> maybe even more hm, though I’m not sure
16:01:15 <cpressey> Well, if the transformations themselves involve floating point, then yes, error would accumulate there, but could you represent them exactly somehow, with algebraic numbers?
16:01:39 <arseniiv> (storing already transformed points seems more useful for computing e. g. edge lengths and angles)
16:01:42 <cpressey> And only introduce floating point, and its error, at the end
16:03:00 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah, I thought about “constructible numbers” like Q[√2][√(5+√2)] but they need much space and the algorithms are quite complex
16:03:34 <arseniiv> I realized only today one can use rigidity of the construction
16:05:36 <arseniiv> oh, also if you’re accidentally interested in numbers of that form, I’ll try to dig out an article with the algorithms
16:06:01 <arseniiv> I rewrote them in Mathematica so my code is unhelpful even to me as of now
16:06:18 <arseniiv> I didn’t even comment it as needed
16:06:45 <arseniiv> (I even don’t remember if it’s complete and working as it should, lol)
16:07:22 <cpressey> I know very little about computational geometry but your question was very similar to a discussion I remember having with someone many, many years ago.
16:07:41 <arseniiv> ah, I didn’t tell that I tried to prototype the thing a year or something ago, and then left it for a while, only yesterday to remember about why not again
16:08:22 <arseniiv> cpressey: interesting! what you talked about?
16:12:21 <cpressey> I think it was about animating a rotating cube, rotating it a small amount on each frame, and the person I was talking to was worried that floating point error on each frame would accumulate
16:14:33 <cpressey> Long before we had GPUs to do all this stuff for us :)
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16:17:26 <arseniiv> cpressey: interesting but that has some merit even now, as multiplying quaternions is better than multiplying rotation matrices
16:18:02 <arseniiv> like, there is an obvious sensible way to normalize a quaternion and not a simple one to “orthogonalize” a matrix
16:18:40 <arseniiv> I mean, quite easlily allow, vs. the matrices
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16:29:03 <arseniiv> though in applying a quaternion to a vector, one should be considerate and use an optimized procedure, not just make usual quaternion multiplication, which would be quite costly
16:29:03 <arseniiv> ah, and also for rotating many vectors in bunch, it’s better to convert q. to a matrix and use the latter, so matrices are useful at the end
16:29:03 <arseniiv> okay I spam the channel with googlable stuff sorry, though that’s a pretty neat stuff, I can’t get over it even if I don’t write 3D applications almost at all
16:29:03 <arseniiv> (and I intended to add a bit about logarithms, but IRC was wise to shut me out)
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16:30:24 <arseniiv> I didn’t know about an eclipse at all, is it lunar? I’ll go look
16:31:34 <arseniiv> though I have no good observation erm places, there are trees blocking the way the Moon usually is at that time
16:36:29 <arseniiv> b_jonas: en.wikipedia says “It will be visible in most parts of Europe (except northern Scandinavia)”, well-well!
16:36:53 <arseniiv> also Stellarium doesn’t show any dimming, meh, do I want to see that kind of eclipse
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16:46:14 <zzo38> I have Swiss Ephemeris in my computer, so I can make the calculation of when and where is the eclipse. Do you have that or other ephemeris software?
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17:48:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, if you want to output UTF-8 in the error message, you should probably first check the locale to ensure that it is UTF-8, and to output ASCII instead otherwise. (You could store those substrings in global variables, and initialize them based on the locale.)
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18:39:22 <olsner> heh, argument pa*r*sing, I read "a library for argument passing in C"
18:47:19 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73293&oldid=73277 * Simplemaker * (+83)
19:03:59 <esowiki> [[Klon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73294&oldid=33133 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+152) cats + reorder sections
19:05:32 <esowiki> [[DOG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73295&oldid=23278 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) bold title
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19:37:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73296&oldid=73243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2)
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20:21:04 <esowiki> [[LS Basic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73297&oldid=73293 * Simplemaker * (+10) /* See Also */
20:25:41 <esowiki> [[Dumbf*ck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73298&oldid=44185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3)
20:32:42 <zzo38> I read the Wikipedia article about microtypography. I seem to remember someone mentioned that DVI is not compatible with microtypography, but actually it is capable of all of the things listed there, without needing any specials; the only exception is changing the widths of fonts, when you are not using a fixed set of font widths and instead allow a continuous range; this is the only thing of those that DVI doesn't do (although in my e
20:33:07 <esowiki> [[PESOIX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73299&oldid=41869 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
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21:08:07 <rain1> I will check it out about microtypography
21:10:04 <arseniiv> <zzo38> I have Swiss Ephemeris in my computer, so I can make the calculation of when and where is the eclipse. Do you have that or other ephemeris software? => when I had Celestia installed, I think there was a thing to prognose eclispes at several solar system bodies (and on Earth), but now I don’t use Celestia
21:11:55 <int-e> I think it's "prognosticate".
21:12:26 <int-e> (Or just "predict")
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21:14:54 <shachaf> What do you think of the argument-parser-o-matic 16,000?
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21:15:13 <shachaf> Should I introduce more macros to make it less verbose and more magic?
21:15:21 <shachaf> Or get rid of macros entirely?
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21:28:08 <int-e> . o O ( Amazing insight. )
21:28:23 <imode> big shocker that one.
21:28:53 <int-e> arseniiv: I actually looked it up.
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21:30:11 <int-e> Sometuimes the verb is derived from the noun and not the other way around, and this is one such case.
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21:31:02 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, I believe you though I wanted to write “prognosize” still, as it came to my mind first :D
21:31:20 <arseniiv> > C16 from Medieval Latin prognōsticāre “to predict” => eh
21:31:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:39: error: lexical error at character 't'
21:31:43 <arseniiv> oh sorry poor lambdabot I always forget about that
21:32:12 <arseniiv> @botsnack -- does that affect anything and are comments parsed in here?
21:32:18 <int-e> arseniiv: A good indicator is that if there was a two or three syllable synonym for "predict", we'd see it more often. :)
21:33:21 <arseniiv> the joke is, “predict” didn’t come to my mind that time :′( for an obscure reason
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21:37:44 <arseniiv> I worry a bit that my oral speech may be degrading. Either I just speak not as much as needed, or it’s interference of much reading in English, or me noting it eagerly when it’s not actually that bad, especially when I sleep not enough before that day, or it’s really first signs of something
21:38:44 <arseniiv> compared to that, writing (at least not in English, where I still often need a dictionary to help with something) seems more or less normal
21:39:10 <arseniiv> my syntax is as heavy-handed as always, at least. No more, no less
21:40:25 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I told you what I thought of it, at least. Well, part of it. You might add more macros if it can make the compiled program smaller and more efficient by doing so.
21:40:59 <shachaf> zzo38: I could stop using «» and use '' instead, but I'm only targeting systems that use UTF-8.
21:42:16 <shachaf> The macros are supposed to make it more convenient, not more efficient.
21:46:49 <zzo38> Yes, the macros should make it more convenient, but should not make it too much less efficient by doing so.
21:52:30 <int-e> arseniiv: heavy-handed, hmm. "It is with a heavy hand that I type these words."
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21:54:40 <arseniiv_> of course the reality is not that interesting, I just forgot to rename myself before restarting the router
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21:56:22 <int-e> not anymore, now you're identified to services.
21:56:58 <arseniiv> I’m a proper impostor with a proper documentation, duh
21:57:13 <arseniiv> it wouldn’t suit me otherwise!
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21:59:18 <fizzie> . o O (What sort of things are postposterous things?)
21:59:20 <arseniiv> ah, that word I remember still
22:07:10 <arseniiv> tried to find that article about arithmetic in Q[…][…]… and as it was prognosticated, I hadn’t find it. There are just too many items and any sensible keyword resulted in failure. At least I’m not committed to use this arithmetic anyway, but it’d be nice to re-read about it, sigh
22:19:14 <int-e> arseniiv: those ... are mysterious
22:21:35 * int-e is not fluent in Unicode.
22:21:39 <arseniiv> I thought those … were a textual ellipsis
22:21:50 <int-e> Sure, but what do they stand for?
22:22:39 <int-e> There are numerous things you could put there.
22:22:50 <int-e> Possibly some quotients as well.
22:24:10 <arseniiv> ah, yes, something like that, but in this case all that mess denotes a field defined inductively: either that (ordered) field is Q or it is F[√s] for F being that kind of field, s ∈ F, is positive and not a square
22:24:44 <int-e> So... some specific algebraic numbers.
22:24:47 <arseniiv> so we just add some square roots in succession
22:25:47 <arseniiv> yeah, s > 0 and not a square, I was to brief
22:26:24 <arseniiv> now I’m making famous native-speaker typos, danb
22:26:30 <int-e> Hmm, is that exciting in anyway... I guess the inverses need work.
22:27:29 <arseniiv> finding inverses is not hard, it’s just like in C or like what is done to 1/(5 + 7√3) to get rid of the radical in the denominator
22:27:35 <int-e> And if you have many square roots, the question of FFT-like speedups arises as well, hrm. Not a clue :)
22:28:16 <int-e> Ah you want to close Q under field operations and sqrt().
22:28:27 <int-e> (of non-negative numbers.)
22:28:43 <int-e> Is this for geometry?
22:29:06 <arseniiv> also this arithmetic is very space-inefficient, so one needs to find representations in Q[…]… with as few brackets as possible, for each new result. Or it would result in a gigabytes of numbers
22:29:47 <arseniiv> it’s one of the ways to make tesselation-y computations work for sure
22:30:52 <arseniiv> I’ll push my luck with usual floating point, trying to come up with a way to recalculate point coordinates to make them more accurate each time that’s relevant
22:32:54 <arseniiv> as a conected tesselation chunk is rigid, increasing accuracy almost up to floating-point precision should be possible
22:33:13 <arseniiv> I presume in a way like those summation algorithms
22:34:01 <arseniiv> and, as that idea needs some sleeping on, bye
22:34:30 <int-e> . z Z ( good night )
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23:10:55 <imode> ah, the weekend is upon us.
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23:30:45 <imode> I've resolved to do a couple of things. one: build a minimum viable cycle rewriting system in C. two: build a compiler that compiles pseudo-assembly language into cycle rewriting rules. three: extend the C system to support built-in rules for I/O.
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