←2020-08-07 2020-08-08 2020-08-09→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:04:30 <zzo38> What are you thinking of my "World Trap" card?
00:05:16 <shachaf> Man. How come writing programs with UIs is a completely ridiculous endeavor these days?
00:05:45 <shachaf> It's so bad. There are five platforms you need to target and they're all trying to maximize lock-in by having incompatible APIs for everything.
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00:06:08 <shachaf> They don't even want you to use the same language, because apparently we're in the 1950s and high-level cross-platform languages haven't been invented yet.
00:08:46 <zzo38> Depending what you are writing, you could use some VM code, such as Z-machine code or Glulx code; that is why Infocom invented the Z-machine code, for their Zork game.
00:09:09 <zzo38> You might also be able to use SDL for some stuff, maybe.
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00:38:10 <fizzie> shachaf: I was doing some "classic iOS" ObjC things recently, and it was kind of interesting, that whole NeXTSTEPpy object feel and the Interface Builder and stuff.
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00:38:27 <fizzie> Although AIUI that's kind of obsolete with Swift and SwiftUI and declarative UIs, which seems like a bit of a shame.
00:38:32 <shachaf> fizzie: that's called "classic" now? Is Objective-C deprecated?
00:38:55 <shachaf> I don't get it. I want to write my program in one language, which I get to choose, and I want to compile it to all the different target platforms.
00:39:24 <shachaf> I don't want a Swift-only or Java-only or .NET-only or JavaScript-only or C++-only library as the basic thing the platform provides. That just seems absurd.
00:39:26 <fizzie> I don't know about "deprecated", but I think it's not definitely "the new thing".
00:40:15 <fizzie> Swift is to Objective-C what Kotlin is to Java, or that's the impression I got.
00:40:39 <shachaf> Swift sounds like an OKish language to me.
00:41:05 <shachaf> But I'm not going to write my program, which needs to be efficient and cross-platform, in Swift. That's just silly.
00:41:09 <fizzie> "Even better, you don’t even need to type semi-colons."
00:41:27 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd highlight that as a big selling point on the very top of https://developer.apple.com/swift/ though.
00:41:43 <fizzie> I don't think the semi-colons were the problem.
00:41:52 <zzo38> Objective-C is a superset of C, I think, so you can write everything else except the UI in C, I think.
00:42:47 <shachaf> I don't really want to write my UI six times.
00:43:05 <fizzie> No, see, you get six software development teams who each write the UI once.
00:43:15 <shachaf> Six: Mac OS, iOS, Android, Windows, Linux, web.
00:43:36 <fizzie> Mac OS and iOS are converging a little, aren't they?
00:44:18 <fizzie> Sort of outside my field of view, but that's what it felt like. Or at least they were already much closer than Android and [anything else].
00:44:44 <shachaf> Well, maybe. Writing a different UI for desktop and mobile actually does make some sense.
00:45:30 <fizzie> Well, you know... "Qt is the fastest and smartest way to produce industry-leading software that users love."
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00:45:39 <shachaf> I don't really want to use C++, though.
00:45:52 <shachaf> Qt might be one fo the most reasonable answers? But that doesn't seem great.
00:46:13 <fizzie> I think I remember Nokia's Linux phones were kind of heavily banking on Qt.
00:48:09 <zzo38> What you will do, it might depend what program you are writing, too.
00:48:47 <shachaf> I would write my own UI code, except for a few things that make it tricky.
00:49:04 <shachaf> The main things are: Rendering text, and handling text in general; accessibility.
00:49:07 <zzo38> What program are you trying to write?
00:49:53 <shachaf> Nothing at the moment. I gave up on some programs I was trying to write.
00:50:03 <shachaf> Even the idea of making a simple GUI program is kind of daunting, though.
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00:50:42 <zzo38> I generally write command line programs instead, since many thing we don't need the GUI.
00:53:16 <zzo38> But sometimes you might be able to use SDL or something like that
00:53:31 <zzo38> (Although, SDL doesn't handle text)
00:54:04 <zzo38> But, even with rendering/handling text, it still depend what stuff you need to do, since different applications require different text handling.
00:55:06 <shachaf> All applications require the same text handling: They must render "Professional Octopus of the World" in 12pt Arial.
00:57:22 <zzo38> No, that isn't quite correct. Even if needs to render arbitrary text, it might not need 12pt Arial, and even if it is, it can depend on if the render is on the screen or printer, too.
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01:34:59 <zzo38> There is then consideration of kerning, ligatures, line breaking, etc, depending on what is needed.
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02:15:47 <zzo38> Also, how much is twelve points depend on the application too. Some programs use 1/72 inch, and some use 1/72.27 inch. The PostScript documentation specifically says that 1/72 inch isn't a point, but it is approximately equal to one point (it doesn't give an exact number of how much is one point).
02:16:47 <zzo38> So, I will suggest to call 1/72.27 inch a "small point" and 1/72 inch a "big point", I suppose.
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02:17:28 <shachaf> A smoint and a boint, for short.
02:18:33 <zzo38> O, OK.
02:22:21 <shachaf> Do you know how solvers for forall-exists kinds of problems work?
02:22:53 <shachaf> I mean Σ_2 or Π_2, I guess.
02:23:04 <shachaf> How much harder is it than SAT?
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03:57:19 <Antebrationist> Are there any programming KOTH competitions running currently?
03:59:53 <imode> bobbeh
04:00:26 <Antebrationist> Programming?
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04:12:14 <zzo38> I don't know what is "KOTH competitions"
04:13:03 <Antebrationist> Competitions where user-submitted programs battle it out, to be King of the Hill (KotH)
04:13:19 <zzo38> O, OK
04:19:40 <Antebrationist> There was one on here a while back, that orbitaldecay ran, as a brainfuck competition, but no more have occurred since.
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04:24:56 <zzo38> Yes, there was one before, but I don't know if it is at this time, now.
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04:30:11 <zzo38> Did you want any other programming languages with it?
04:30:40 <Antebrationist> Any programming language will do, but I'd prefer esolangs.
04:30:59 <Antebrationist> Oh, zzo, I finished proving Eldritch TC a while ago.
04:32:14 <zzo38> OK. You should add a esolang wiki article about Eldritch then.
04:32:34 <Antebrationist> I don't think that it is sufficiently notable to be on the wiki.
04:35:10 <zzo38> OK, although I think esolang wiki doesn't require so much notability as Wikipedia does.
04:35:59 <Antebrationist> Eldritch bears many similarities to existing languages, such as Befunge, though I didn't even know about them before you mentioned it. For this reason I won't post it.
04:36:33 <zzo38> OK, if you do not want to post, is OK
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07:05:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, writing UI programs sucks these days. other people have noticed that too.
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11:52:07 <int-e> fungot: do your bridges work on the first try?
11:52:07 <fungot> int-e: so far no mime types" http://srfi.schemers.org/ srfi-27/ is that once the basics are working, and stuff like that
11:56:12 <fizzie> application/x-broken-bridge
11:57:12 <fizzie> Why do I feel like I saw a funny MIME type just recently? No recollection what it could've been.
11:58:18 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe it was the 'application/vnd.PHE-COVID19.v1+json' content type used by the UK COVID-19 data API, but that's not especially funny, just maybe oddly specific.
12:06:25 <int-e> fizzie: I'm playing https://www.gog.com/game/bridge_constructor
12:07:23 <int-e> And I'm finding that the addition of sloped bridges made this much more fun.
12:07:45 <fizzie> I played a little bit of Poly Bridge (1) recently, which that looks quite similar to.
12:09:06 <int-e> Yeah there are a number of clones of the original (I think) Bridge Builder
12:10:25 <fizzie> Looks like there's also a Bridge Constructor / Portal crossover game.
12:10:43 <int-e> I don't know how they compare, the Bridge Constructor franchise is the only one I've played.
12:14:39 <int-e> I've tried that one too (gog has a promo bundle with three variants including that one, https://www.gog.com/promo/20200806_launch_promo_bridge_constructor)
12:16:21 <int-e> They have portals, they have accelerating goo and bouncing goo, they have turrets, they have switches and companion cubes... they may be overdoing it a little, but it's still enjoyable. I kind of miss the budget constraints actually.
12:16:42 <fizzie> I'm kind of unhappy that I only have the Android version of Poly Bridge (had some expiring Play Store credits to lose, at it was on sale for something like £0.99), and the small-touchscreen user experience really isn't quite the same as having a monitor and a mouse.
12:16:44 <int-e> (They still display a cost, so you /can/ minimize that.)
12:17:30 <fizzie> It runs okay on Chrome OS's Android app support, and you can click on buttons with the mouse, but none of the actual bridge parts deign to be interacted with the mouse.
12:17:30 <int-e> The portals mean that you have cars going vertically, and also can be used to flip car directions... some levels have you cross the car's own path.
12:17:41 <int-e> So, yeah, it's cute.
12:17:42 <fizzie> (Presumably the code is specific to "touch" events on those.)
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12:21:54 <int-e> But the sloping really got me... instead of connecting start and end in a straight line you get to do things like http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bbslope.jpg (partial bridge, I removed the supporting structures, from a (the?) christmas themed level set)
12:32:36 <int-e> I wonder how many civil engineers this game has ruined. "I can make this bridge at half the cost, you just have to be careful when driving on it."
12:38:55 <Arcorann> I still remember Armadillo Run, has anyone else heard of that?
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12:42:50 <int-e> hmm, not I
12:47:12 <fizzie> No. I do remember the TIM games though.
12:49:35 <int-e> hit the fish bowl with the rocket so that the cat chases the mouse to the switch...
12:49:49 <int-e> TIM was great.
12:50:53 <fizzie> Much like bridge-building, the best parts (for me, anyway) are the ridiculous almost certainly unintended "somehow, it all worked" solutions.
12:51:12 <fizzie> https://classicreload.com/sites/default/files/styles/game_image/public/dosx-the-incredible-machine-screenshot.png
12:52:41 <fizzie> It's funny how the magnifying glass can magically focus light exactly on the flammable object, no matter what the orientation, as long as it's roughly the right way round.
12:52:56 <fizzie> Must have some control circuitry and optics in it.
12:55:32 <int-e> Nah, it's just Maxwell's demon directing the photons, violating the laws of thermodynamics.
12:58:15 * int-e is trying to figure out which elements are *missing* from the title screen. Amazingly there is quite a few... hamster wheel, generator, motor, dynamite, candle, rocket, tennis ball, basket ball, all the steel parts... I'm almost certain I'm forgetting something, there were just too many things.
12:59:01 <fizzie> The bellows.
13:03:09 <fizzie> Oh, and a bouncy trampoline.
13:03:37 <int-e> Oh the the trampoline...
13:03:41 <fizzie> https://the-incredible-machine.fandom.com/wiki/The_Incredible_Machine_(game)/Parts of course someone's made a list
13:04:01 <int-e> Those things were annoying, so much fiddling to find a good placement.
13:04:43 <int-e> I mean sure, that's basically the whole game, but trampolines actually stood out in that regard.
13:06:56 <int-e> Oh the monkey, how did I forget the monkey.
13:07:24 <int-e> It's easily the most adorable thing in the whole game.
13:08:34 <int-e> And I didn't know about the special parts.
13:13:54 <int-e> One cute idea in the medieval bridge constructor is that it makes non-working bridges a feature: you lure enemies onto a bridge and let them plummet to their death. It has to collapse at the right moment for this to work.
13:16:15 <rain1> https://www.mdpi.com/2073-8994/7/3/1289/htm
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14:57:29 <esowiki> [[MailBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76522&oldid=57701 * LegionMammal978 * (+777) added interpreter link and TC proof
15:23:53 <fizzie> I didn't know about the special parts either.
15:27:08 <int-e> look at this nice load distribution... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/load.jpg (bridgebuilder, possible spoiler for one wood only train bridge)
15:27:15 <int-e> s/builder/constructor/
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16:46:29 <rain1> did you like this link about computing with tangles?
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17:05:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76523&oldid=68139 * LegionMammal978 * (+239) /* Invalid submissions */
17:22:29 <fizzie> Hmm, I didn't remember TIM being this clunky when it comes to the interface though. Wonder if that's just DOSBox acting up.
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18:30:45 <int-e> I remember 320x200 being an acceptable graphics resolution ;)
18:31:29 <zzo38> Depending how many things you need to display, maybe it is.
18:32:07 <int-e> (the idea ist that the resolution and smoothness of, say, mouse movements, are related)
18:38:22 <zzo38> Yes, that it is
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18:57:36 <esowiki> [[Brotlipython]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76524 * Osmarks * (+1424) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Brotlipython |paradigms=multiparadigm |author=[[User:Osmarks|osmarks]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |class=:Category:Turing complete|Turing complet..."
19:00:50 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76525&oldid=76506 * Osmarks * (+68)
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19:10:09 <b_jonas> I just visited a small museum in Budapest in which the best part is a small and cheap but well-composed representattive selection of digital computers, from the first many-cupboard vacuum tube machines up to recent enough stuff that they won't have a time gap when they later try to expand it. The 80s and 90s home microcomputer era in the middle is the most interesting, because it has a mixture of models
19:10:15 <b_jonas> imported from West Europe and ones produced locally.
19:11:51 <b_jonas> There were a few pocket calculators, only Eastern ones, but of course the best ones of those are clones of calculators from the West. The two programmables on display are http://www.rskey.org/CMS/index.php/7?manufacturer=H%EDrad%E1stechnika&model=PTK-1023 and http://www.rskey.org/CMS/index.php/7?manufacturer=H%EDrad%E1stechnika&model=PTK-1072
19:12:53 <b_jonas> While the collection is good, the labels are terrible. With the digital computers, where I had some foreknowledge to be able to recognize stuff, but in general, there are barely any labels from which you could find out anything about objects you're not familiar with.
19:13:30 <b_jonas> for reference: https://www.mmkm.hu/hu/kiallitasaink/a-muszaki-tanulmanytar-allando-kiallitasa Magyar Muszaki es Kozlekedesi Muzeum, a Muszaki Tanulmanytar allando kiallitasa, 11. kerulet Lagymanyosi hid labanal.
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20:14:06 <zzo38> Maybe my new format for a printing document file (like PDF and DjVu) can be called "PDQ", since it is a alternative of PDF. One of the parts of this project would be to write a complete specification, another part would be to write a Ghostscript driver to target it, and the other part is to write the viewer software.
20:19:14 <zzo38> The full specification should be available in a plain text format, so that you do not require an implementation to already exist in order to read it.
20:38:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Suspicious Garbage * New user account
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20:46:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76526&oldid=76518 * Suspicious Garbage * (+242) /* Introductions */
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←2020-08-07 2020-08-08 2020-08-09→ ↑2020 ↑all