←2020-08-08 2020-08-09 2020-08-10→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:24:00 <hhhhh> hello. does anyone here know much about golfscript? im slightly confused about how arrays work. for example, how would i take an array on the stack and increment its 3rd value by 1?
00:24:24 <ais523> I know a bit about GolfScript but not much
00:24:33 <ais523> it has many fewer builtins than you'd expect from a golfing language
00:25:21 <ais523> but in most cases, arrays in golfing languages are treated as a single object, rather than being modified
00:25:38 <ais523> so the operation you want, you should think of as "replace this array with a copy in which the third value is incremented"
00:25:59 <hhhhh> i see. how would one go about doing so?
00:26:45 <zzo38> GolfScript is one of the older ones though I think; there are many newer ones with more commands
00:27:07 <hhhhh> for an array of length 3, [0,1,2 1+]? that seems really ungolflike.
00:27:07 <ais523> I'm trying to find a good builtin to use
00:27:23 <hhhhh> [0,1,2,1+] oops
00:27:38 <hhhhh> zzo38 any good examples?
00:28:25 <ais523> actually this is a hard operation in most golfing languages I think
00:28:35 <hhhhh> strange.
00:29:02 <hhhhh> i was thinking of doing so because im trying to find a nice esolang to implement an esolang interpreter in#
00:29:05 <zzo38> hhhhh: Well, there are many, actually; there may be a list or category on esolang wiki (and if not, maybe there should be? Discuss and figure it out, I suppose)
00:29:28 <ais523> in Jelly it would be something like 1+$3¦
00:29:31 <hhhhh> and i need to store a direction, a PC and the program itself, i was thinking of doing that in an array
00:29:38 <hhhhh> jelly seems complicated, ive looked at it
00:29:57 <ais523> yep, https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8/99QW8X40LL///9HG@oY6RjrmOiYxgIA
00:30:14 <ais523> only ¦ is really weird and unintuitive, and that's still a lot longer than you'd expect
00:30:22 <hhhhh> what is "$3¦"?
00:32:06 <ais523> ¦ is a quick that combines two code fragments
00:32:19 <ais523> the first fragment is 1+ which adds 1 to things
00:32:30 <ais523> although, I should just have used the increment builtin, ‘
00:32:38 <ais523> the second fragment is 3 which is the array index to affect
00:32:54 <hhhhh> whats $
00:32:59 <ais523> and ¦ operates on an array only at certain indexes (although it does this by operating on the whole of the array)
00:33:18 <ais523> $ is a grouping command that effectively puts the previous two code fragments into a group, like putting parentheses around them
00:33:28 <ais523> and also indicates that they take one argument (in this case, an array)
00:33:53 <ais523> we need to group them because otherwise ¦ will operate on + and 3, not on 1+ and 3
00:34:08 <ais523> if I replace 1+ with the builtin, the $ isn't needed: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8//9RwwzjQ8v@//8fbahjpGOsY6JjGgsA
00:34:29 <hhhhh> why is the ¦ needed?
00:34:46 <hhhhh> oh, nvm.
00:35:22 <hhhhh> so (chain) (number) ¦ executes (chain) on array index (number)?
00:35:27 <ais523> right
00:35:36 <hhhhh> hm neat.
00:35:47 <ais523> except it doesn't, what it actually does is to execute the chain on the entire array, then put all the indexes other than the listed one back to what they were
00:35:54 <ais523> this might be a bug
00:36:03 <hhhhh> yes that does seem strange
00:36:44 <ais523> it comes to the same result in most cases, but when it doesn't it can be very confusing
00:39:18 <ais523> in Brachylog, the best I can do is to rotate the element to the start, increment it, then rotate the array back into order: https://tio.run/##SypKTM6ozMlPN/r//1HbrkdNTdqPmhpPbXjUthvI/v8/2lDHSMdYx0THVMcs9n8UAA
00:39:37 <hhhhh> hmm, unicode characters
00:39:40 <ais523> `! brachylog [1,2,3,4,5,6]↺₂+₁ʰ↻₂w
00:39:43 <hhhhh> do they count as a single byte for golfing purposes
00:39:44 <HackEso> ​[1,2,4,4,5,6] \ true.
00:40:06 <ais523> it isn't Unicode, most modern golfing languages make use of their own character sets with 256 different characters
00:40:15 <ais523> they aren't encoded as Unicode, but they are encoded as a single byte each
00:40:40 <hhhhh> okay. so if i make a golfing language it should only have up to 256 characters?
00:41:02 <ais523> the number of characters used should be a power of 2, using 256 different characters is nicely usable because you can have one byte per character
00:41:20 <ais523> but if, say, you only use 16 different characters then you can fit in two per byte, which halves the length of your code
00:41:41 <zzo38> Well, in this case they are all characters which are present in Unicode; I don't know if some uses characters which are not present in Unicode, although I do not expect so; there may be some whose Unicode representation is ambiguous, though, possibly
00:41:44 <ais523> most people use 256 though, or rather, they have 256 but don't use all of them (which makes their code somewhat suboptimal)
00:42:06 <ais523> zzo38: yes, it's common to use characters that all exist in Unicode, but to use a non-Unicode encoding for them
00:42:45 <ais523> this isn't always the case, e.g. Mathematica uses one character that isn't in Unicode (and when encoded as Unicode, encodes it to a private-use character), although it isn't a golfing language despite sometimes being used as one
00:43:02 <zzo38> What character is that?
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00:44:09 <ais523> it's a sort of lambda-like operator, according to the source I got it from it looks quite similar to ↦
00:44:32 <ais523> (but Mathematica treats it as a distinct character )
00:44:34 <ais523> `unidecode 
00:44:36 <HackEso> ​[U+F4A1 - No such unicode character name in database]
00:45:11 <hhhhh> very great language design
00:45:18 <ais523> if you ask Mathematica to save in a Unicode encoding then decode it using a different program, it becomes the private use character U+F4A1
00:46:24 <ais523> Jelly's character set was chosen to be typable on at least one pre-existing keyboard layout, without use of a compose key
00:47:08 <zzo38> O, OK, so that is what it is.
00:47:52 <ais523> I've had enough problems in Jelly with the distinction between Đ and Ð
00:47:55 <ais523> `unidecode Đ
00:48:02 <ais523> `unidecode Ð
00:48:04 <HackEso> ​[U+00D0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ETH]
00:48:42 <ais523> U+00D0 is in Jelly's character set, U+0110 isn't, and it's easy to accidentally type the wrong one and have the UTF-8 to Jelly convertor produce an invalid program as a result
00:48:47 <ais523> (it doesn't even error…)
00:49:13 <ais523> the lowercase forms are đ and ð respectively, which is why they're different characters
00:49:51 <zzo38> Presumably the converter should convert both U+0110 and U+00D0 into the same Jelly character code, when you are using input in Unicode, to avoid such a problem. (When converting into Unicode, you would only do U+00D0 out and not U+0110, I suppose)
00:49:53 <ais523> I can't distinguish the uppercases in the font I'm using, though
00:50:01 <zzo38> Which would be better, I think.
00:50:06 <ais523> zzo38: I agree
00:51:12 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76527&oldid=76446 * RocketRace * (+52) Jumpey
00:51:43 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76528&oldid=76527 * RocketRace * (+2) /* Control flow operations */
00:52:59 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76529&oldid=76528 * RocketRace * (+92) /* Surreal literals */
00:53:42 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76530&oldid=76529 * RocketRace * (+17) /* Stack operations */
00:54:17 <zzo38> (The font I have does not seem to distinguish those two characters either, it look like to me)
00:54:36 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76531&oldid=76530 * RocketRace * (-17) /* Stack operations */
00:55:07 <esowiki> [[Varsig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76532&oldid=20557 * LegionMammal978 * (+224) added interpreter link and categories
00:55:19 <hhhhh> https://tio.run/##S85KzP3/v1BdQb9aKcrV3y8kPMTDzd/NM9gz2NXV089TKcbIRtlIv1b1/39/P1eFkHB/hRCPIFcICyTi5h8apBDsGQEA CJam is cool
00:56:28 <ais523> I'm not very experienced with CJam, but it's basically best thought of as GolfScript 2
00:56:39 <ais523> it's very similar to GolfScript but has a much better set of builtins
00:57:14 <hhhhh> yeah, i thought it was pretty crazy that golfscript had you type entire english words like "do", "while", "if"...
00:59:38 <ais523> one of the things I like least about Brachylog is that it supports multiple-character variable names
01:00:15 <hhhhh> does it require them?
01:00:18 <ais523> from my perspective, it is unlikely that you will need more than 26 generic variables in a golfing language program (in fact, needing more than 2 is rare)
01:00:24 <ais523> no, single-character variable names are allowed
01:00:37 <ais523> but, it means that syntax consisting of two consecutive letters can't be used for another purpose
01:00:37 <hhhhh> how is it a bad thing to support things that arent required to be used?
01:00:40 <hhhhh> oh, i see.
01:01:05 <ais523> a good compromise would be to require multiple-character variable names to all start with the same letter
01:01:11 <ais523> e.g. Z
01:01:42 <ais523> then any of the other 25 variables could be used for syntax where concatenating them meant something (the obvious meaning in Brachylog is to have an implicit "and" between them)
01:01:42 <hhhhh> imagine not having 676 variables in your esolang. how terrible.
01:02:07 <ais523> this only becomes less space-efficient than the original when you have 53 or more variables
01:02:20 <ais523> and even using 3 is a bit of a stretch
01:02:41 <ais523> (most golfing languages have very concise ways to deal with temporaries)
01:03:00 <ais523> Jelly has only one variable for the entire program, which feels a bit restrictive sometimes, but it's rarely an issue in practice
01:04:55 <hhhhh> fair enough
01:05:22 <ais523> most programs don't use it
01:05:28 <hhhhh> i need to make an esolang interpreter where the PC has direction, so storing the program, the PC and its direction would be probably good for what i need to do
01:05:55 <ais523> (I have suggested that Jelly should have a global *dictionary*; this would allow you to simulate arbitrary many global variables if you needed them by using one key per variable, and would also be useful for other purposes)
01:07:20 <hhhhh> huh, no built in base conversion in cjam?
01:07:58 <ais523> people have gotten better at making golfing languages over time
01:08:28 <hhhhh> time to find "cjam but actually utilizing the 256 character limit slightly more"
01:08:33 <ais523> I think the best way to make one is to look at existing golfing languages to see which builtins you need, but come up with something innovative in terms of encoding or control flow or data flow
01:09:10 <hhhhh> well, id be quite happy with just cjam+extra builtins like base conversion, really
01:09:19 <zzo38> Does Jelly have any dictionary object at all? Also, if you were to extend it, how to do?
01:10:04 <hhhhh> ah cjam does have base conversion i missed it oops
01:10:38 <zzo38> I started writing a new specification of a golf programming language too, but it is not finish yet.
01:11:13 <ais523> zzo38: it has some support for interpreting an array of key-values pairs as though it were a dictionary
01:11:46 <ais523> but probably doesn't have any actual dictionaries (unless you can somehow jailbreak the interpreter into running arbitrary Python)
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02:41:21 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76533&oldid=76233 * DanielCristofani * (+198) /* Examples */
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03:46:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Two]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76534 * Caenbe * (+1351) Created talk page with attempt at a rigorous def.
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05:04:28 <esowiki> [[Bit~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76535&oldid=63897 * Bangyen * (+103)
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05:10:32 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76536&oldid=76482 * Bangyen * (+126) /* Implementations */
05:14:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:MAWP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76537 * JonoCode9374 * (+278) Created page with "= Negative Numbers = I used to be able to. Now I can't. <!-- This is so sad, Alexa play despacito --> How do I do it? ~~~~"
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12:26:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Penisscript]] to [[PenisScript]]: fix capitalization
12:39:19 <b_jonas> "I can't distinguish the uppercases in the font I'm using, though" => I can distinguish icelandic Eth and serbian Dje but that's because it's in my terminal font and I specifically want all common non-space chars distinguishable even if that makes one of them ugly
12:43:45 <b_jonas> so the icelandic Eth has a slanted stroke
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14:24:17 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76541&oldid=76001 * Orisphera * (+241)
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16:07:20 <esowiki> [[Divzeros]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76542&oldid=20843 * LegionMammal978 * (+196) added interpreter link and categories
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17:40:22 <int-e> Btw, annoyances... why does https://github.com/ (coming there without a cookie) give me a prominent signup dialog, but no direct way of logging in? That requires an extra click...
17:41:27 <int-e> (Rhetorical question, I think I know why. I don't think it's a *good* reason.)
17:41:31 <int-e> `? device
17:41:34 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
17:41:35 <int-e> (related)
17:43:43 <myname> logging into bitbucket is horrible as well
17:44:30 <int-e> I forgot. I removed the bitbucket account that I once had.
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17:47:25 <int-e> The best part of that was the final paragraph here: http://sprunge.us/OWUWYH
17:53:18 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76543&oldid=75792 * DmilkaSTD * (-23)
17:56:12 <esowiki> [[Qu 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76544&oldid=75492 * DmilkaSTD * (+6)
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18:03:41 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76545&oldid=76543 * DmilkaSTD * (-85)
18:04:26 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76546&oldid=75158 * DmilkaSTD * (-55) removed the first warning
18:07:19 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76547&oldid=75008 * DmilkaSTD * (+26)
18:10:27 <esowiki> [[XPML17]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76548&oldid=50647 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) +stub
18:15:07 <fizzie> "Oh, I heard it through the grapefruit / Oh, I'm just about to lose my mind" makes equally much sense as the actual lyrics.
18:16:03 <esowiki> [[Anarchysm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76549&oldid=75798 * DmilkaSTD * (-27) -uncomputable category
18:19:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Flv * New user account
18:20:42 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76550&oldid=76545 * DmilkaSTD * (+111)
18:23:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76551&oldid=76526 * Flv * (+96) /* Introductions */
18:24:16 <esowiki> [[User:Flv]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76552 * Flv * (+127) Created page with "hello ! i am currently studying esolangs in general ! for a talk ! i have been involved in the creation of the esolang fleuve."
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19:45:48 <esowiki> [[Trueclone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76553 * DmilkaSTD * (+2515) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''Trueclone''' is an esoteric language designed to make [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_code Spaghetti code]. == trueclone == * trueclone uses goto st..."
19:46:38 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76554&oldid=76550 * DmilkaSTD * (-24)
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20:36:23 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76555&oldid=76483 * Bangyen * (+63)
20:52:44 <esowiki> [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76556&oldid=53084 * LegionMammal978 * (+189) added interpreter link and categories
21:00:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:BytFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76557 * Bangyen * (+280) Created page with "==Questions== * <code></code> and <code></code> move both pointers, correct? * Which bit is the first bit? * Are cells still unsigned? * Is the tape still right unbounde..."
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21:01:23 <Davenz> accidenti,ne cercavo una in italiano!
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21:32:14 <flv> hello ! does anyone have links/resources related to esoteric interpreters ? def: an unusual interpreter that can be used on any language. i have been googling but most things I find are about esoteric language interpreters, and not general interpreters... does this make sense ? thanks !
21:48:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76558 * Bangyen * (+257) Created page with "==Questions== * If the data string is only output once the program terminates, doesn't that mean that the truth machine never outputs anything when the input is <code>1</code>..."
21:50:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76559&oldid=76558 * Bangyen * (+97)
21:56:58 <b_jonas> flv: there's no interpreter that can interpret any language. that's literally impossible.
21:57:39 <flv> i mean, yes, but also, it depends what you mean by interpreter ?
21:58:18 <b_jonas> elanamirellam: also we know he's in a place with no good wired internet suppliers, so maybe you can guess location from that
22:01:10 <b_jonas> And I assume amazon.de and amazon.nl and amazon.fr doesn't have enough computer parts that ship there too
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22:17:14 <esowiki> [[User:AlvinBalvin321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76560&oldid=76335 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+0)
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23:15:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iah * New user account
23:19:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76561&oldid=76551 * Iah * (+91)
23:20:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76562&oldid=76561 * Iah * (+0)
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