←2020-08-09 2020-08-10 2020-08-11→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:37:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76563&oldid=76559 * Bangyen * (+82)
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01:04:33 <b_jonas> I wonder how many significantly different media types there are for which a language can be optimized, for how many of them has an entirely new language unrelated to any previously existed language or an entirely new script ever get created, and whether there are esoteric possibilities there waiting for us.
01:05:16 <zzo38> Can you give any examples?
01:06:45 <b_jonas> For writing, there are forms of writing optimized for writing in soft clay that may later be burned to hard, carving in hard stone, carving in wood, writing on paper with ink, on paper with typewriter, on paper with traditional professional metal press, on paper with digital graphics-capable monocolored printer,
01:07:59 <zzo38> OK. Yes, there are, but I don't know if other media than what you mentioned.
01:08:02 <b_jonas> on paper with digital graphics-capable multicolored printer, punched on paper with a hand-operated stylus and read tactile, punched on paper by more complicated means and read tactile, formed from bended neon lights;
01:08:40 <zzo38> O, yes, although often neon lights don't use a different alphabet, just a different style
01:09:03 <b_jonas> for sign languages there's ordinary sign languages, variants optimized for signing mostly or completely one-handed, and more tactile versions for communications to blind-deaf;
01:09:36 <b_jonas> from spoken there's ordinary speech, whispering, shouting, whistling, humming, and maybe some musical instruments.
01:09:48 <zzo38> Somehow I thought you only meant writing at first, but yes, there is that too.
01:10:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, for most of these I can only think of examples that are just modified variants of others, which is for practical reasons of not having to learn too many different languages or forms of writing.
01:11:52 <b_jonas> Oh, and there's optimized for speech in a noisy environment, for which we have the English-based language used in air traffic communication.
01:12:08 <b_jonas> There's probably a lot of untapped esoteric potential.
01:12:12 <zzo38> Ah, yes.
01:12:18 <flv> b_jonas: in my thoughts, I am envisioning interpreters as an artistic interpretation of a program, like in a drama. e.g. let's say, i was to write an interpreter that reads only fully-formed words in English that are part of the program ? does this make sense ?
01:13:03 <flv> this interpreter could work with any given program, no matter which language it was written it. it's just that it's not a very useful interpretation...!
01:13:43 <b_jonas> flv: I don't really understand. How is it still an interpreter for that language if it doesn't execute the program?
01:14:27 <b_jonas> Well, I'll have to sleep on this and try to think of the best untapped esoteric potential.
01:15:17 <b_jonas> Esolangers have already invented a lot of strange esolangs that use weird types of media of course, probably popularized a lot by Piet.
01:15:17 <flv> b_jonas: I mean, you could then write something to execute the code that follows the interpretation
01:16:29 <b_jonas> Also, I should start a list of interesting esolangs on my esowiki userpage, with short spoilery descriptions, because many esolang names are easy to forget even if you remember what the language does.
01:17:02 <flv> b_jonas: e.g. associate each English word with a certain binary number and call it a day ?
01:19:15 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Efghij is my favorite esoteric media type for esolangs
01:22:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, make such a list including descriptions; I might like to see too (and maybe I forgot, too)
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01:58:20 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76564&oldid=63648 * Ais523 * (-29) /* Implementations */ unpipe link
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02:16:31 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76565&oldid=50841 * LegionMammal978 * (-6) fixed title
02:16:42 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76566&oldid=76565 * LegionMammal978 * (+1)
02:16:57 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76567&oldid=76566 * LegionMammal978 * (+2)
02:17:33 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76568&oldid=76567 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) I should really use the preview
02:32:28 <zzo38> I suppose other possibilities may include multi-peoples hand signs, hand signs with flags, non-humans signs/writing/speech, computer displays (both low and high resolutions can be considered, and both mono and colours), air writing with smoke (or magic, if you want to consider stuff other than actual stuff), speech with especially short or long durations, etc.
02:33:08 <zzo38> (I also think I read somewhere about different languages being different due to the different acoustics of the environment, such as how many trees there are, etc)
02:34:09 <zzo38> (Actually, in the case of computer displays, still or animation can be another possibility.)
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07:28:20 <zzo38> O, I suppose another possible media with writing might be writing with chalk.
07:29:26 <zzo38> And, I suppose another possible variant for sign language might be by feet.
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07:53:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Swc * New user account
07:58:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76569&oldid=76562 * Swc * (+245)
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08:07:35 <arseniiv> hello
08:25:10 <esowiki> [[Tru]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76570 * Swc * (+5405) Created page with "'''Tru''' is an esoteric programming language of brackets using prefix-free code, designed by [[User:Swc]]. The language runtime has two built-in stacks. The instructions to..."
08:26:00 <esowiki> [[User:Swc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76571 * Swc * (+36) Created page with "True programmers program in [[Tru]]."
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08:27:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76572&oldid=76510 * Swc * (+10)
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13:39:36 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76573&oldid=76505 * Razetime * (+331) /* Example Programs */
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13:55:28 <wib_jonas> zzo38: well, I've known the non-esoteric possibility that I want: I'd like a good family of sans-serif fonts with a consistent look for text including mathematical formulas, optimized for slides with the contemporary mid-resolution LCD projectors.
13:57:09 <wib_jonas> The CM and other mathematical fonts are serif fonts, and optimized for printing on paper, rather than viewing from a distance on a projected screen, so they're not ideal, but there don't seem to be good quality sans serif mathematical fonts that qualify.
13:57:48 <wib_jonas> So there's a gap between handwritten mathematics (either overhead projector slides or whiteboard or chalkboard) and printed on paper that should be filled.
13:58:09 <wib_jonas> Ideally I should make such a font set, but learning to make good fonts and making good fonts takes a ton of times.
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14:03:09 <fizzie> wib_jonas: I don't know if it's any good really, but https://github.com/firamath/firamath is meant for your use case as far as I can tell. (The showcase images are clearly beamer slides.)
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14:04:34 <wib_jonas> fizzie: that looks at least interesting, thank you
14:06:06 <fizzie> I think that's probably the thing I landed on when I made some slides in beamer for a course I was TA for, and I think I got there by going through https://tug.org/FontCatalogue/mathfonts.html and looking for anything without serifs. There's a few other candidates on the list too, though the vast majority are serif fonts.
14:06:32 <int-e> . o O ( "A lot of times", of course, alludes to the multitude of newspapers called "___ Times", some of which commissioned their own fonts. )
14:07:02 <int-e> s/lot/ton/, sorry.
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14:50:55 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> Ideally I should make such a font set, but learning to make good fonts and making good fonts takes a ton of times. => also there seem to be no font creating software which is comfortable to work with, in drawing and editing glyphs. AFAIU people just edit in some other software and then import, but I see a lot of problem with this approach and at least it’s problematic for me to make a routine. I can’t even make a font for a conscript w
14:50:55 <arseniiv> ith ink-looking glyphs in Inkscape from an image with layers a layer for a glyph each
14:53:07 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: that is certainly part of the software
14:54:27 <wib_jonas> more realistically, I should update my fecupboard20 font with more characters, and better images for some of the existing characters. the ASCII parts are stable and haven't needed a change for years, I've been using it in terminals in my home machine a lot, but there are characters missing and ones that are ugly.
14:55:15 <wib_jonas> also I started a tiny bitmap font, and for that I actually collected a decent list of characters that I want, so I can start from that list to add characters to fecupboard.
14:56:04 <wib_jonas> the tiny font is variable pitch
14:58:31 <arseniiv> what are the uses for tiny bitmap fonts nowadays aside from oldskooly games with big pixel graphics?
14:59:15 <arseniiv> hm FontForge’s website looks like the software got a revamp some time ago?..
14:59:26 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: mostly just esoteric uses, yes, but it's also that a bitmap font is easier and faster to make than a graymap font, even though I could use a graymap font and it would look better
14:59:54 <wib_jonas> although some people want to use tiny font in some hardware like led displays or magnetic displays
15:00:13 <wib_jonas> there are a lot of led displays that are only 8 pixels tall, and that's really limiting
15:01:07 <wib_jonas> some are actually double height, so a pixel is made of two leds and is approx twice as high as wide, but the two leds don't seem to be individually controlled. but these double height ones are used mostly for advertising
15:01:40 <wib_jonas> but I'm making an even smaller font, one that's only 6 pixel tall, with 1 pixel ascender and 1 pixel descender
15:01:56 <fizzie> TI calculators are a good use case for tiny bitmap fonts.
15:03:22 <wib_jonas> as for 8 pixel tall fonts, or 8 pixel tall with 8 pixels of gap, those were useful for games running on old hardware with small ROM and not too capable graphics chip, like NES, SNES, Game Boy, GBC
15:03:31 <wib_jonas> I meen small ROM on the game cartridge
15:04:17 <wib_jonas> on SNES and GBC a few games even used 8 px tall and 4 px wide fonts for their English version, with the CPU copying two characters into one tile definition dynamically as it prints text
15:05:22 <wib_jonas> I was quite surprised when I first saw that, because displaying such text seems impossible on that hardware at first. I think I've only seen two games that does this, IIRC Earthbound and GBC Pokemon TCG but there might be more
15:06:17 <wib_jonas> but a lot of games use 8x8px fonts, or 8x8px fonts with an empty row between that is sometimes used for dakuten, the arch-example being GB Pokemon red/blue
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15:13:50 <arseniiv> I made a couple of small pixel fonts myself in Fontstruct :D though that was a while ago and my goal of wide codepoint coverage wasn’t quite reached at all
15:34:43 <fizzie> The only font I've ever done is the one for https://zem.fi/rfk86/ which is a 4x6 cell with mostly 3x5 characters. But that definitely didn't aspire to (or need) high codepoint coverage. I think I just drew it in Gimp with the grid set to 4x6 pixels, into an image with a couple of 64x48 pixel (16x8=128 character) layers.
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16:15:23 <FireFly> I cam across https://dwarffortresswiki.org/Tileset_repository a while ago which has some really tiny bitmap fonts
16:16:14 <FireFly> I also have an incomplete list of sub-8x8 bitmap fonts that I can locate in a bit
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16:39:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76574&oldid=76557 * DmilkaSTD * (+217)
16:39:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76575&oldid=76574 * DmilkaSTD * (-38)
16:40:22 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76576&oldid=75007 * DmilkaSTD * (-10)
16:41:06 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76577&oldid=76576 * DmilkaSTD * (+42)
16:42:54 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76578&oldid=76554 * DmilkaSTD * (-1)
16:51:44 <FireFly> https://up.firefly.nu/tmp/fontlist.note.html has some assorted tiny bitmap fonts
16:53:46 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76579&oldid=76578 * DmilkaSTD * (-13)
16:54:02 <FireFly> for whatever reason I've always enjoyed really tiny bitmap fonts (both studying and making them)
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17:04:59 <esowiki> [[Trueclone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76580&oldid=76553 * DmilkaSTD * (+172) +Categories
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17:18:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I didn't claim that I'd have wide codepoint coverage. I'd only have slightly more than in fecupboard20, but some of those few characters are important to me.
17:19:48 <b_jonas> `? fonts
17:19:50 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
17:20:10 <b_jonas> we might need to convert this to a page on the esolang wiki, even though it's not really esolang-related
17:20:14 <b_jonas> because it's getting long
17:21:50 <FireFly> could have it as a userpage somewhere
17:22:46 <int-e> more fun with bridges, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/wobbly.jpg
17:23:06 <int-e> (it doesn't look like much but it was really cheap!)
17:23:39 <b_jonas> int-e: which bridge builder game is that?
17:23:52 <myname> i miss armadillo run
17:24:10 <myname> awesome physics game, would love an android port
17:25:26 <b_jonas> and are those orange road sections orange because they're stretched?
17:25:48 <myname> color should be the stress on each segment
17:27:34 <b_jonas> ok, then those road segments are probably stretched
17:27:43 <int-e> b_jonas: Bridge Constructor Medieval
17:29:23 <int-e> I don't know how the Bridge Constructor franchise compares to Polybridge. It's obviously a bit smoother and more diverse (if you count the various spinoffs) than the original Bridge Builder.
17:29:25 <b_jonas> medieval? so those are supposed to be wooden beams, not steel?
17:31:21 <int-e> the colors indicate stress... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/wobblyc.jpg is the construction without stress indication.
17:31:35 <int-e> and this is under Linux, the graphics may not be perfect.
17:34:42 <b_jonas> hehe, [[///]] is not parsed as a link to the /// language on the wiki, you have to write eg. [[:///]]
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17:53:46 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76581&oldid=70006 * B jonas * (+675) start Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs
17:56:16 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76582&oldid=76581 * B jonas * (+64) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
17:57:09 <arseniiv> b_jonas: Funciton?
17:58:13 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76583&oldid=76582 * B jonas * (+34)
18:06:58 <esowiki> [[ZeptoBasic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76584&oldid=57785 * DmilkaSTD * (+4) grammar++
18:09:06 <zzo38> Did you try making up fonts with METAFONT?
18:10:59 <esowiki> [[Category:ICFP contest]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76585&oldid=73618 * B jonas * (+91)
18:14:21 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76586&oldid=76583 * B jonas * (+897)
18:14:44 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no sorry, I don't much like Funciton
18:15:23 <b_jonas> I don't usually talk about that because people don't keep inventing variants or using it for everything like for brainfuck
18:15:32 <b_jonas> but it's just not a language I like. no specific reason.
18:16:05 <b_jonas> but Funciton was a featured language, so it's already two clicks from the front page I think
18:16:12 <b_jonas> one click
18:16:21 <b_jonas> "Previously featured: Funciton · Brainfuck · Deadfish · Emmental · more…"
18:16:49 <b_jonas> so no need to advertise it more. I could mention Intercal.
18:17:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, but I have made a few simple illustrations with metapost,
18:18:15 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but it's just not a language I like. no specific reason. => ah. I understand
18:19:25 <b_jonas> it's not even that it's a two-dimensional language, I'm fine with fungeoids if they're not misused, and I have some ideas for a two-dimensional functional language that is more like funciton than befunge in semantics, but I haven't managed to put together a sane combination yet
18:20:03 <b_jonas> I have some very specific ideas about the basic syntax, but I might have to split this to multiple different languages semantics-wise depending on how user-defined functions are defined and called
18:20:27 <b_jonas> I haven't really tried to work much on this yet
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18:21:22 <b_jonas> it's just an idea that I think has to be done because there doesn't yet seem to be an esolang like that, but it isn't too esoteric, and I don't mind too much if someone else does it well first
18:23:41 <b_jonas> it's just a silly 2D syntax for an ordinary imperative or functional language (there may have to be two or three different versions depending) where variables are encoded not with names, not implicitly with pointless programming, not with stack indexes, but with columns in the source code
18:24:34 <b_jonas> it translates both ways into some ordinary programming language with plain syntax, it's not some actually interesting and unique idea like Consumer Society
18:39:46 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76587&oldid=76568 * DmilkaSTD * (-12)
18:43:14 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76588&oldid=76579 * DmilkaSTD * (+63)
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21:27:41 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76589&oldid=75712 * Qwertyu63 * (+75) /* Links */
21:27:51 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76590&oldid=76589 * Qwertyu63 * (+1) /* Links */
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21:38:07 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76591&oldid=76590 * Qwertyu63 * (+160) /* Example code */
21:38:45 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76592&oldid=76591 * Qwertyu63 * (+16) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
21:40:19 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76593&oldid=76592 * Qwertyu63 * (-13) /* Truth Machine */
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