←2020-09-02 2020-09-03 2020-09-04→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:06:32 <b_jonas> zeb finds screw attack
00:06:39 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel
00:14:31 <spruit11> I made a profile of a bintrees benchmark: https://pastebin.com/tLEpdApj
00:15:16 <zzo38> Different kind of thing good for a different purpose of programming language, depending what DSL you are making, I think.
00:17:49 <spruit11> Yah. I won't claim you should always choose this as a solution. And certainly not at the moment. But could be nice.
00:19:58 <zzo38> Yes, maybe sometimes; I don't know.
00:21:41 <spruit11> Yah, ah well, dreams. THere's a good chance I'll declare it beta, shelf it, and sit on it for another year. It isn't supposed to be work.
00:25:27 <zzo38> Sometimes I just invent my own DSL for the specific use of something, and other times won't need a DSL, due to something else being available, etc.
00:26:44 <b_jonas> GG
00:26:56 <spruit11> Dunno. I do recommend anyone Lua/Lisp/Python over Egel at the moment. But the last time I tried to compare Egel to Python, the latter ran out of stack space after 900 recursive calls.
00:27:13 <spruit11> So, there just might be a case. Sluggish, but robust.
00:28:49 <b_jonas> grapple below croc, bombs at croc, high jump at croc!
00:28:59 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel still
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00:33:26 <imode> b_jonas: sgdq or something? I see super metroid.
00:33:55 <b_jonas> imode: not SGDQ, that has ended already
00:34:17 <b_jonas> but yes, super metroid
00:34:44 <imode> is there a super metroid race I don't know about.
00:37:36 <b_jonas> imode: an exhibition match of super metroid randomizer accessible (SMRAT) between the winners of the two brackets of the tournament
00:37:45 <b_jonas> on twitch channel Speedrunnersarena
00:37:52 <b_jonas> third match of best of five starting soon
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00:49:44 <zzo38> Recently, for doing some calculations I am using JavaScript code. Know that you can write something like const {abs,max,min,sqrt}=Math; in order to put some functions in the scope to avoid needing the prefix each time. (For some reason, I only thought to start doing that recently.)
00:50:25 <zzo38> Also, specifically in Node.js, you can write something like: module.exports[require("util").inspect.custom]=()=>`documentation goes here` in case you want documentation displayed when a module is imported into the REPL.
00:50:43 <spruit11> Yah, I believe JS is a pretty good language.
00:51:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: a lot of languages allow that. in C++, using std::abs; using std::min; using std::max; using std::sqrt; in python it's from math import sqrt; (the other three are in the prelude); etc
00:51:35 <zzo38> Yes. There are some features I dislike (such as automatic semicolon insertion), but it is mostly good, I think.
00:51:42 <b_jonas> you can pull in symbols from other packages in rust too
00:52:24 <b_jonas> SPEEED
00:54:37 <spruit11> The only thing I don't like about JS is the amount of typing you need to do sometimes. But I'll wager they already fixed that.
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00:56:07 <spruit11> Right, JS has lambdas.
00:58:18 <zzo38> It is good some of the newer things they have added, such as typed arrays, arrow functions, generator functions, and integers.
00:59:11 <spruit11> Heh. https://z-pattern-matching.github.io/
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01:08:26 <zzo38> But I think I read that the implementation of integers requires the left and right operands of many operators to be of the same type (floating or integers); I think that it should not be required for the bit shifting operators (using the type of the left operand as the result type in these cases, instead). Also, last time I checked, there wasn't functions for ctz and popcount and stuff like that.
01:13:16 <spruit11> More food for thought. I am gonna play mtg now.
01:13:19 <spruit11> o/
01:25:47 <zzo38> They are adding new things to JavaScript, but I think some improvements could be made to some other programming languages too, including PostScript, such as alpha transparency, auto-allocation (e.g. when you want to read a line of unknown length from a file), FFI, better string handling, shebang line, Z buffering, etc.
01:28:46 <zzo38> What cards are you playing?
01:30:04 <spruit11> This was a bit boring. I didn't have a nice Boros deck at the moment so I played Red Aggro to just get the dailies out of the way.
01:31:36 <spruit11> I don't know Postscript well but I thought it is doing its job?
01:32:23 <zzo38> It is, although it could do better, like C and JavaScript and whatever are being improved to do better too.
01:32:44 <int-e> Meh, no word about the sole * in the August Ponder This solution :-/ I was really hoping to learn something.
01:33:33 <zzo38> (One problem is the readline command; you have to allocate the string yourself to store the result, and if it is too short for the text of the line to fit, then it is an error; I suggest making it so that if you put null instead of a string, it will allocate a string of the correct size automatically.)
01:33:51 <spruit11> I think I played most the memes of current standard though. Normally I like janky decks.
01:35:21 <int-e> (Or at least be disappointed by something like "they used a 10k CPU cluster for a week to exhaust all possibilities")
01:35:30 <spruit11> Hmm, I guess postscript still 'suffers' from being designed for far less capable printers instead of the monstrosities we have now.
01:36:11 <spruit11> Usually that is a good thing, though.
01:37:14 <zzo38> spruit11: Well, I am using PostScript on computers, not on printers, for one thing. For printers, you might as well use something like PCL, perhaps. I use PostScript as a programming language and think it is not as good as a document format or protocol, because there are other formats for doing that, which are better.
01:37:50 <spruit11> Why not? Stack machines are great for this kind of stuff?
01:37:51 <zzo38> (The result is also not necessarily even going to be a printed page; it might be a PNG file or something like that.)
01:39:16 <zzo38> spruit11: While it does work, it seems too excessive for a protocol or document format.
01:42:28 <zzo38> (For a document format, there is PDF, although I think even for that, PDF is really messy)
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01:46:13 <spruit11> Dunno. I like small concatenative languages for their simplicity but I wouldn't want to program in them. Probably couldn't.
01:46:30 <spruit11> And speed. I appreciate speed.
01:49:15 <zzo38> Well, some people do program in PostScript (actually, I think I read that the inventor of INTERCAL programs in PostScript, too, when they want to do graphics, since PostScript is a good programming language for doing vector graphics).
01:53:36 <spruit11> Stack languages are great if you want to send lots of instructions to some abstract machine with high throughput. That's about the only thing I picked up from looking at them. They're just so simple.
01:53:48 <spruit11> And nicely regular. I like that too.
01:57:44 <zzo38> Do you like to play any D&D or GURPS or similar games? Also, do you like to make up any custom Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:59:35 <spruit11> I am way more boring than that!
02:00:33 <spruit11> No, I mostly spend my time reading up on philosophy, cs, and watching Hollywood crap.
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04:18:00 <Cale> Waaaaait, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is neither a Spirit nor a Dragon
04:20:21 <shachaf> Are you sure?
04:20:28 <shachaf> Based on the art it looks like both.
04:22:45 <Cale> Types: Legendary Planeswalker — Ugin
04:23:04 <int-e> It's a planeswalker? Are there any planeswalkers with creature types?
04:23:17 <zzo38> Well, the card isn't a Spirit or Dragon, but perhaps the art is
04:23:23 * int-e never learned properly about planeswalkers.
04:23:54 <Cale> Yeah, I don't think there are any planeswalkers with creature types
04:24:09 <zzo38> int-e: Refer to rule 306 to learn about how the planeswalkers is working.
04:24:17 <int-e> It can still be a dragon in spirit, even if it can't be one on technical grounds.
04:24:38 <zzo38> I think that they don't make any planeswalker cards with other types, although it is possible to make such a card that is also a tribal or creature, and then it can have creature types.
04:24:50 <int-e> zzo38: But I also don't really care to learn properly about planeswalkers.
04:25:54 <zzo38> O, OK. Although, if you want to learn how is the game working for whatever reason, then you should learn about all of the rules of the game.
04:28:08 <shachaf> Gideon, Champion of Justice can have creature types.
04:28:12 <shachaf> Although they aren't printed on the card.
04:28:48 <shachaf> I suppose any planeswalker can be turned into a creature.
04:29:33 <Cale> Can something which is not a creature have a creature type, and if so, will it retain that creature type if it becomes a creature?
04:29:45 <zzo38> Yes, any permanent could, some change themself and some are changed by other effects.
04:32:06 <zzo38> Cale: I think it can include a creature type in the type line of its text, but unless it is a creature or tribal, it won't have those subtypes, and they won't be retained unless an effect says that permanent becomes "an artifact creature" or changes it into a creature "in addition to its other types".
04:33:16 <zzo38> (It is not entirely clear though if it can retain subtypes due purely to its initial text. But I think not, since subtypes are a continuous property (a characteristic).)
04:34:07 <shachaf> What about e.g. https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373559 ?
04:34:24 <shachaf> Nylea, God of the Hunt, and the other Thorax gods.
04:34:26 <shachaf> Theros?
04:34:52 <Cale> So if, for example Ugin, The Spirit Dragon was printed with Spirit Dragon in its type line, it wouldn't count towards the number of Dragons you control.
04:35:07 <zzo38> Cale: Yes, I believe so.
04:37:05 <zzo38> (unless something changed it into a artifact creature)
04:37:45 <Cale> right
04:39:01 <zzo38> (Although, it is the Oracle text that counts anyways, rather than printed text, although cards are normally printed with the Oracle text of the time when they were printed. But I did read about one exception, where it was printed with Oracle text from the future instead.)
04:39:53 <shachaf> Usually when I get cards they're printed with Oracle text from the past.
04:46:31 <int-e> "oracle text from the future"... so they went forth and back on a change, I guess.
04:46:55 <int-e> Or perhaps it was a deliberate un-card prank.
04:47:13 <int-e> As for the rules I guess I stopped caring about 13 years ago.
04:48:34 <shachaf> I imagine it's from Future Sight.
04:48:44 <shachaf> Maybe https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?multiverseid=136151 ?
04:49:04 <shachaf> I don't know if that was on the Oracle text before it went into the rules or not.
04:49:22 <int-e> They still had mana burn then.
04:50:28 <shachaf> Did they have damage go on the stack?
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04:51:43 <zzo38> Do you mean combat damage on the stack? That was the case at one time, in sixth edition, but they removed that now; the rules work differently.
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04:52:50 <int-e> shachaf: yes.
04:54:57 <int-e> no battlefield either, an explicit out-of-play zone for phasing, blah...
05:01:00 <shachaf> I'm glad they took blah out
05:01:03 <shachaf> What a terrible rule.
05:02:23 <int-e> blah.
05:03:41 <int-e> `rot13 blah
05:03:42 <HackEso> oynu
05:03:53 <int-e> (quite pronouncible)
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08:17:14 <b_jonas> Cale: vehicles are printed with creature types, but they only become creatures when you use their "crew" ability to animate them, and then they have those creature types
08:21:40 <b_jonas> Cale: yes, but these days planeswalkers could barely be printed with creature types anymore even if wizards wanted to, because "Legendary Planeswalker - Liliana" takes up most of the type line. the best you could do is a planeswalker with a short planeswalker type and a very short creature type, or a very short planeswalker type and a short creature type, or a changeling ability in the text box. and if
08:21:47 <b_jonas> you tried that, you couldn't reprint that planeswalker in a core set, because those have longer expansion symbols.
08:22:23 <b_jonas> "Legendary Planeswalker Creature - Spirit Dragon Ugin" is right out, and so is "Legendary Artifact Vehicle Planeswalker - Argo Ship"
08:26:18 <b_jonas> even "Legendary Planeswalker - Cat Ajani" is too long for a core set, it could only fit in a set with a normal-sized expansion symbol. although they renamed one creature type to shorter: Hound to Dog.
08:39:46 <Cale> b_jonas: Just gotta keep decreasing the font size until you need a magnifying glass to read it :D
08:40:59 <Cale> "Legendary Enchantment Creature - God"
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09:34:32 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77183&oldid=76811 * Orisphera * (-19) /* General Ideas */
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12:18:57 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77184&oldid=76452 * TwilightSparkle * (+1) /* Equality */
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12:41:45 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77185&oldid=77184 * TwilightSparkle * (+197) /* Medium */
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12:55:08 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77186&oldid=76791 * TwilightSparkle * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */
12:59:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Andrew's Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77187&oldid=77167 * Tetrapyronia * (+16)
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14:08:21 <wib_jonas> could we somehow rename "minute" as in the unit of time that's 60 seconds? we have trouble abbreviating it because both "m" or "mn" can stand for either minute or month (yet at least one system uses "m" to abbreviate one and "mn" to abbreviate the other), and even "min" has problems because it already very often stands for "minimum". but I don't
14:08:21 <wib_jonas> know what the best solution could be.
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14:16:35 <FireFly> "min" is a good enough suffix for minute for me
14:16:50 <FireFly> of course, we could just use SI prefixes and seconds \o/
14:17:45 <FireFly> instead of 5 min you just specify 3hs
14:20:23 <FireFly> wib_jonas: but don't worry, UK manages to use 'm' as shorthand for both metres and miles in road signage
14:27:07 <wib_jonas> FireFly: hehe
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14:28:49 <Taneb> I want to rename the kilogram to something that doesn't have a prefix in it because I don't understand why the SI base unit has a size prefix
14:31:31 <FireFly> reasonable, arguably the gram should be the base unit
14:31:47 <cpressey> wib_jonas: how about sexagintisecond (Latin) or hexecontasecond (Greek)
14:32:02 <cpressey> or, uh, shastisecond (Sanskrit)
14:32:42 <wib_jonas> road signs get *some* excuses from the usual rules because they have to limit the amount of text to remain readable. here, most road signs give distances in kilometers but don't have the unit explicitly written out, with three exceptions.
14:33:20 <cpressey> What gets me is that an hour is nicely divisible by 3 (thank you, Ancient Babylonians) but we never exploit this by saying anything like "It's a third to 11"
14:33:51 <wib_jonas> short distances are usually given in meter, and those use "m" as the unit, so "500 m" is very common on the freeway in context of the second warning of an upcoming exit. small white road signs that give a distance or length below another road sign do explicitly say "km" eg.
14:33:51 <wib_jonas> "https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/M2_aut%C3%B3p%C3%A1lya%2C_kosdi_%C3%BAt_h%C3%ADdja.jpg" . finally speed limit signs use km/h as the unit, and old ones have an explicit "km" (in small letters) to hint at that, but these days the new style without any mention of the unit is more common.
14:35:11 <wib_jonas> cpressey: well some things are quantized to multiples of 5 minutes, but yes, 20 minutes is never used as the unit
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14:39:12 <wib_jonas> info page for that image is "https://commons.wikimedia.org/?curid=79510556"
14:43:41 <FireFly> wib_jonas: sure, we omit unit for the usual km distance signs too, and use explicit 'm' for shorter distances
14:44:29 <FireFly> I would mind it less tbh if UK signage just omitted unit altogther for long mile distances :p but if you use a unit, at least use a unique one
14:49:45 <wib_jonas> a unique one like ounce!
15:50:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77188 * Tetrapyronia * (+247) /* Random Number Generator */ new section
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16:04:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77189&oldid=77188 * Tetrapyronia * (+270)
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17:18:32 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77190&oldid=75045 * Lebster * (-4) /* Hello World */
17:19:16 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77191&oldid=77064 * Lebster * (-101) /* StupidStackLanguage */
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18:09:52 <zzo38> If you need to abbreviate both metres and miles in the road sign maybe you should write "mi" for miles, and "m" for metres, then.
18:14:43 <arseniiv> . o O ( min = milliinch )
18:18:52 <zzo38> I think that a inch isn't a SI unit and so their abbreviations should not include SI prefixes.
18:22:21 <kmc> milliinch is a common unit but usually called "mil" or "thou" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch
18:22:34 <kmc> i would say that "mil" is a worse name than milliinch but "thou" is a better one
18:23:10 <arseniiv> zzo38: why not? It’s just that SI prescribes that any, or almost any feasible SI unit should be able to used with SI prefixes, but I’d think it’s not concerned with denying anything outside its scope
18:23:43 <arseniiv> how long art thou o child of inch
18:23:56 <zzo38> arseniiv: I am not denying using SI prefixes on units that are not SI units, but I do deny to use SI prefixes in their abbreviations.
18:24:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: does liter and bar count as SI units? how about bytes and bits?
18:24:53 <b_jonas> and bauds, while we're there
18:24:54 <arseniiv> I’d think denying for some extent would be reasonable indeed but not too strongly
18:25:22 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, I suppose so.
18:25:23 <arseniiv> bits I think are somewhere in SI, though we’re probably need a reference now
18:26:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know, although I think that some are "close enough", although bytes are often abbreviated using binary prefixes rather than SI prefixes anyways
18:26:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: also how about kiloponds, millimeters of mercury, kilocalories? those are definitely not SI units
18:27:17 <zzo38> Well, yes it isn't SI units, but at least millimetres of mercury and kilocalories have common abbreviations, which happen to match those of SI units
18:28:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pipythonmc * New user account
18:28:56 <b_jonas> a liter is 10**(-3) m^3, a bar is 10**5 Pa, so they're at least powers of ten multiples of SI units. a kilopond is slightly less than 10 newton, a millimeter of mercury is around 133 pascal, and a kilocalory is around 4200 joule, but they're derived from the SI units kilogram and meter indirectly.
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18:29:57 <zzo38> (I am only saying that you should not generally add SI prefixes to non-SI units in abbreviations; in some cases they already do do such a thing commonly enough. I suppose you could also treat "mil" as an abbreviation for "milliinch".)
18:30:36 <b_jonas> as for SI prefixes, I would prefer if people would stick to stricter rules about the ones that aren't powers of 1000, that is centi, deci, deka, hecto, and effectively consider them depreciated and no longer productive prefixes, using them only when there's established practice using a specific prefixed unit for a domain.
18:31:22 <zzo38> For litres, I think "mL" is a common abbreviation, as is "L", and for bar, I think "mbar" is common, and for calories, "kCal".
18:32:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77192&oldid=77171 * Pipythonmc * (+199) /* Introductions */
18:32:32 <zzo38> I think the ones that aren't powers of 1000 can be useful in some cases, such as maybe they should use myriahertz for the AM radio numbers (some old radio receivers do, but I have never seen them call this unit "myriahertz")
18:32:35 <b_jonas> for milliliter, "ml" is the normal abbreviation, but "mL" and m with a loopy l are sometimes used on products
18:32:44 <b_jonas> and yes, "mbar" is common
18:33:17 <b_jonas> "mbar" is used by engineers, which I know becuase I work with them on a project where they have pressure sensors and we display some perssures in mbar
18:34:24 <esowiki> [[User:Pipythonmc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77193 * Pipythonmc * (+171) Created page with "Hi! I'm a new user planning on making a 2D snake based language (a bit similar to ><> but with a different instruction pointer system) I'll update this page if I remember."
18:36:18 <b_jonas> I don't have any experience about the milliinches and stuff, those are used in North America but not here, so I only meet those units on the internet
18:37:22 <zzo38> I also don't like "tonne", I think is confusing with "ton", a suitable word instead of "tonne" should be "megagram"
18:37:26 <arseniiv> I heard inches are usually divided by powers of two
18:37:45 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, usually, although not always.
18:38:41 <zzo38> A IBM flowchart template I have includes inches in eighths, tenths, twelfths, and fifteenths. It also includes centimetres.
18:39:40 <arseniiv> zzo38: fifteenth, wow!
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18:43:07 <Hooloovo0> I think those are used in scale drawings; those triangular architectural rulers have some pretty wonky ratios on them
18:45:24 <Hooloovo0> in machine shops it's fairly common to speak of hundreths or thousandths of an inch - I've got a very nice machinists ruler with 1/32, 1/64, 1/50 and 1/100 scales
18:46:27 <Hooloovo0> for hertz, I've seen kilo/megacycles, but not myria
19:05:04 <kmc> what about kilomegacycles
19:05:07 <kmc> abbreviated kmc
19:07:25 <kmc> I have seen an old (published 1950) circuit diagram with "µµf" for pF
19:07:36 <kmc> i put it on a shirt. it's pretty esoteric https://i.imgur.com/szTRnRL.png
19:10:41 <zzo38> Shouldn't the abbreviation for "mega" being "M" rather than "m"? Also, I think that you should not put multiple prefixes, isn't it? Also, I have seen "cycles per second" but not not abbreviations like that (other than "cps")
19:11:37 <zzo38> kmc: O, I did not see such thing like that before, but now I did.
19:11:47 <zzo38> What is it a circuit diagram for?
19:16:34 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_per_second
19:16:35 <kmc> Hz was officially introduced in 1960
19:16:57 <kmc> kc and Mc were common abbreviations before that
19:18:08 <fizzie> I've read a book that used "millimicrometer", but it was very non-technical fiction, and I think intended more to evoke a sense of a very short distance rather than to describe a physical thing.
19:18:29 <kmc> whch book? sounds familiar
19:19:03 <fizzie> One of Donald E. Westlake's "Dortmunder" series, as it happens.
19:19:17 <Hooloovo0> I'd have guessed some kind of classic sci-fi
19:19:23 <zzo38> I have used the term "decimicron" to describe the default DVI units, and have later seen that some others have done the same.
19:19:46 <kmc> i think millimicrometer or millimicron were actually used in engineering prior to 1960 which is also the year when nano- was introduced
19:19:56 <kmc> https://themetricmaven.com/realm-of-measure/
19:20:33 <fizzie> "Around them hummed thousands—no, millions—of silent conversations, whistling and whispering through the cables; unfaithful husbands making assignations all unknowingly a millimicrometer away from their all-unknowing faithless wives; business deals being closed an eyelash distance from the unsuspecting subjects who’d be ruined by them; truth and lies flashing along cheek by jowl in parallel lanes,
19:20:39 <fizzie> never meeting; love and business, play and torment, hope and the end of hope all spun together inside the cables from the teeming telephones of Manhattan."
19:20:47 <fizzie> (They're hiding underground in a tunnel used for telephone cables and suchlike.)
19:21:34 <kmc> zzo38: the circuit is a 5-state ring counter. every time a pulse is presented on the "pulse bus" the next triode / neon bulb will start to conduct and the previous one shuts off
19:21:40 <fizzie> (From 1983, so not old enough to predate the nano- prefix.)
19:21:45 <kmc> it's from this book http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/era/High_Speed_Computing_Devices_1950.pdf
19:22:07 <zzo38> Have you seen "decimicron" used anywhere else?
19:22:44 <fizzie> The Lensman series of classic sci-fi probably had some wonky units. It definitely used "kilocycles" and so on in place of Hertz.
19:24:32 <fizzie> Oh, it has a "millimicrosecond" too.
19:28:57 <kmc> zzo38: I don't think so
19:29:10 <fizzie> Not for distance, but IIRC, the default time unit in one speech processing toolkit is 100 ns (to give a better-than-1µs precision while still allowing a 32-bit offset to represent durations up to a typical speech utterance, I think), and I think they might've called it decimicrosecond somewhere.
19:29:47 <Hooloovo0> iirc some old computer or something used microfortnights for delays
19:30:22 <Hooloovo0> the kind of delays that were "about a second, but we don't really know how fast our clock is running yet"
19:30:47 <zzo38> Yes, I have read that too
19:31:21 <fizzie> Though I'm not finding any matches for decimicrosecond in that context, so maybe they just called it a "100 ns unit".
19:32:11 <kmc> the Linux kernel famously uses "jiffies" as a time unit
19:32:54 <kmc> which is a configurable and platform-dependent unit
19:33:16 <b_jonas> kmc: does it still really? I thought that's mostly obsolate, and only appears in some obsolete interfaces.
19:33:21 <kmc> yeah, perhaps
19:33:29 * kmc is amused by microfortnights
19:33:33 <Hooloovo0> I think it still means "the system timer interrupt"
19:33:42 <Hooloovo0> well, the rate of ti
19:33:57 <b_jonas> there's a lot of compatibility of course, including user interfaces that used to be jiffies back when a jiffy had a single concrete value, but later were kept as just whatever that value is regardless of what jiffies are.
19:34:01 <kmc> but is there still a regular system timer interrupt
19:34:21 <kmc> I thought they moved to a tickless system where the kernel figures out before sleeping when the next event it will need to wake for is
19:34:31 <fizzie> Way back when I still cared about building a kernel, they were already introducing config flags for that sort of stuff.
19:34:41 <kmc> there are still scheduler timeslice units and such but not an interrupt that always fires regularly
19:34:42 <Hooloovo0> I'm unsure, but I know it's in the config file
19:36:29 <fizzie> CONFIG_NO_HZ, right.
19:36:41 <b_jonas> kmc: it figures out how much to sleep, but people want stupid low-latency UIs that react to their mouse movements in a <insert very small number> nanoseconds, and claim that they can see the difference, so on some systems we keep interrupting processes very often regardless that that slows down everything because a lot of cpu state, including the L1 cache and the L2 cache, keeps trampled when we switch
19:36:45 <Hooloovo0> yeah, looks like it
19:36:47 <b_jonas> between processes, when the CPU could perform well if you just let each process keep computing for a longer time.
19:36:55 <fizzie> (Haven't been following that at all.)
19:37:04 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure if that's an option on old/weird architectures
19:37:21 <b_jonas> kmc: I think some of the change was brought about when most kernels became SMP-capable. back in the old days, non-SMP kernels were the norm, because few people had more than one CPU core.
19:37:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77194&oldid=77189 * SunnyMoon * (+513) They do not work. :(
19:38:05 <b_jonas> but frankly I don't know much about the details. I'm a user programmer, not a kernel programmer, I don't care too much about the internals of the kernel.
19:40:43 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77195&oldid=77172 * SunnyMoon * (-18) I think people get confused here.
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20:43:24 <esowiki> [[LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77196&oldid=75886 * Amakukha * (-21) doesn't seem to based on APL
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20:47:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77197&oldid=23290 * Amakukha * (+365) /* Not APL-like */ new section
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22:27:26 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77198 * Zero * (+1649) ByteByteFork is ByteByteJump with multithreading
22:29:52 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77199&oldid=77198 * Zero * (+84)
22:31:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77200&oldid=77156 * Zero * (+19)
22:32:59 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77201&oldid=77199 * Zero * (+4)
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22:39:39 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77202&oldid=77201 * Zero * (+9)
22:40:17 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77203&oldid=77202 * Zero * (+17)
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22:54:43 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77204&oldid=77203 * Zero * (+2)
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23:30:28 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77206&oldid=77174 * Camto * (+92) Add #
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