←2020-09-09 2020-09-10 2020-09-11→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:14:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, so which side are you on? are you trying to activate the tower more easily, or avoid the owner of the tower activiating it against you?
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00:52:54 <zzo38> b_jonas: Trying to prevent them from activating it, possibly by damaging it instead.
00:59:21 <zzo38> (I don't know what is the effect of activating the tower, but I do not want to risk it.)
01:01:07 <zzo38> Also, the lord of this tower seems to be able to react to things faster than is possible, almost like he can predict them before it happens; e.g. if someone shoots a crossbow at him from behind, he will move out of the way just in time.
01:09:49 <b_jonas> hmm. so divination magic or, worse, Time Stop.
01:10:07 <b_jonas> or some even more powerful time travel magic
01:10:13 <b_jonas> that doesn't sound good
01:13:45 <b_jonas> if you find out that it is time travel, you might want to try to tell the Lord that every time he travels time to save someone, he dooms someone in the alternate universe he time traveled away from, as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBkBS4O3yvY or https://qntm.org/imperfect
01:52:54 <zzo38> I am not even sure that it is a spell (although it does seem to be a magic power, or maybe psychic; I doubt it is a scientific power). I would guess (although have not actually seen it yet, and just heard what has been reported), they could predict anything one second ahead of time, which is enough time to dodge any attack; explosions can only partally be dodged.
01:56:14 <zzo38> GURPS does have rules for traveling to alternate universes/timelines, both with technology and with spells and psychic powers.
01:57:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: ooh! in that case you need the swerving stunner, a spell whose projectile that can change direction in the air once, and is disguised as an ordinary stunning spell, specifically used against opponents with lightning fast reflexes who normally dodge all attacks, since they have to commit to the dodge like a football goalie. (it's a plot point in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality)
02:01:09 <zzo38> O, good point. (I don't know so much about football though, and neither of my characters, nor as far as I know anyone else in our party, has a Sports (Football) skill.)
02:09:49 <zzo38> I did have some other ideas too, though, such as tricking them into dodging so the attack hits something behind them on purpose, tricking them into dodging into some kind of trap, etc.
02:10:11 <b_jonas> somehow I think of
02:10:15 <b_jonas> `card-by-name trap runner
02:10:17 <HackEso> Trap Runner \ 2WW \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/3 \ {T}: Target unblocked attacking creature becomes blocked. Activate this ability only during combat after blockers are declared. (This ability works on creatures that can't be blocked.) \ MM-U
02:11:09 <b_jonas> you said "next in GURPS game", does that confrontation has to happen in a few in-game days? because it might be hard to track down an obscure spell like that in that time.
02:12:18 <zzo38> Probably it does have to happen in a few in-game days (or maybe even in less than 24 hours); it certainly has to happen before we go back to England (or anywhere else in Europe).
02:12:50 <zzo38> However, there may be solutions not involving magic, and I may be able to use a magic scroll (each of which is usable only once).
02:20:35 <zzo38> These scrolls include: the ability to transform into an elemental creature (quadruped) for a minimum of 1 hour and a maximum of 12 hours; a precognition that is usable only once; an illusionary sound for up to three minutes; the ability to speak to plants for five minutes; an insubstantial projection for up to 10 hours; and the ability to summon up to three small items (which either you could reasonably own, or is inexpensive and widely
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02:29:39 <kmc> can you also speak with fungi?
02:29:51 <zzo38> O, actually there are a few more: to mess up someone's magic powers for three minutes (the target must be touched); the ability to create nearly any item with a mass up to five pounds and lasting ten minutes; a wall lasting for ten seconds, created up to ten yards away; and two scrolls which themself can be used as melee weapons: one knocks back the target several yards if it hits; one causes significant damage with incendiary fragmenta
02:30:31 <zzo38> kmc: I do not think so; fungi are not plants, but a separate classification.
02:31:26 <kmc> that's true
02:31:42 <kmc> a fungus could destroy a wood tower very well, although not quickly, but if it were a magic fungus it might be quick
02:32:21 <fizzie> kmc: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6227805/ "We propose that fungi Basidiomycetes can be used as computing devices: --"
02:33:05 <kmc> I think the ability to talk to fungi would be a good magical power, since they can cover a large area underground, and could probably tell you useful things like the presence/absence of certain chemicals or creatures
02:33:58 <zzo38> Somehow, GURPS doesn't have a "Speak With Fungi" power. But, I think you are right it can be a useful power to have.
02:34:27 <kmc> fizzie: that is neat
02:34:52 <fizzie> kmc: The "Application domains" section is almost what you just said. :)
02:35:04 <fizzie> (Ran into that paper when trying to look up the Fungal Computers Inc. "Computers that grow on you" slogan, which I've got permanently bouncing around inside my head.)
02:35:19 <kmc> :D
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06:15:00 <zzo38> One idea is to make them some sort of zugzwang or halbzugzwang, rather than by using magic powers.
06:17:06 <zzo38> (Or to do that using magic powers.)
06:25:46 <shachaf> Or use sorcery instead of magic, or perhaps witchcraft.
06:29:19 <int-e> which craft?
06:34:56 <shachaf> The craft with the power.
06:45:42 <zzo38> Depending what you mean by "sorcery"
06:48:51 <shachaf> I mean you have to cast it during a main phase when there's nothing on the stack.
06:51:10 <zzo38> Yes, in Magic: the Gathering (I thought of that too), but the game I was mentioning isn't Magic: the Gathering.
06:52:17 <shachaf> But doesn't sorcery work the same way in the real world?
06:54:38 <zzo38> Real world? I wasn't discussing the real world, though.
06:58:57 <myname> i'm interested, how does sorcery work in the real world?
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07:01:06 <zzo38> Wikipedia just says "Sorcery may refer to: Magic (supernatural) [...] Witchcraft [...] Maleficium (sorcery), a form of evil magic [...] Magic in fiction [...]"
07:02:38 <shachaf> Oh, I must've meant maleficium.
07:03:01 <shachaf> The truth is that I didn't really mean anything. I was just naming synonyms for magic.
07:04:37 <int-e> mmm conjuring up synonyms
07:04:58 <zzo38> Sometimes the term "sorcery" may refer to a specific convention of using magic, in some systems, for example.
07:17:22 <shachaf> For example the convention where you cast it during your main phase when the stack is empty?
07:23:38 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, yes.
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08:37:23 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77415 * Zero * (+1235) Created page with "'''DigitDigitJump''' is a derivative of [[BitBitJump]]. The VM operates on a string which contains digits and space characters. Addresses are expressed in base 10, and space-..."
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08:46:32 <cpressey> Good morning.
08:49:12 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77416&oldid=77415 * Zero * (+153)
08:49:39 <cpressey> I'm writing a compiler in Haskell. Uncharacteristically, I'm willingly using monads in it. However, (a) the only monad I'm using (outside the parser) is Either, and (b) I'm avoiding do-notation as much as I can.
08:50:04 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77417&oldid=77416 * Zero * (+25)
08:50:21 <int-e> odd.
09:07:21 <shachaf> What about (r ->)? I bet you're using that one.
09:08:25 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77418&oldid=77417 * Zero * (+163)
09:08:44 <cpressey> Yeah. I'm also using lists. I'm not using them as monads though.
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09:12:43 <cpressey> Whereas with the Eithers I'm using >=> extensively.
09:31:11 <rain1> msolglu
09:34:03 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77419&oldid=77418 * Zero * (+155)
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10:39:56 <cpressey> splay3 p1 p2 p3 f = p1 >>= (\a -> p2 >>= (\b -> p3 >>= (\c -> return $ f a b c))) -- see, isn't that so much nicer than do-notation?
10:40:32 <cpressey> Especially when f is just a type constructor or something. It's all pointfree and stuff.
10:42:02 <fizzie> @pl splay3 p1 p2 p3 f = p1 >>= (\a -> p2 >>= (\b -> p3 >>= (\c -> return $ f a b c)))
10:42:02 <lambdabot> splay3 = (. ((. ((. (((return .) .) .)) . (.) . (.) . (>>=))) . (.) . (.) . (>>=))) . (.) . (.) . (>>=)
10:42:08 <fizzie> Wouldn't that be much more elegant?
10:43:44 <cpressey> Admittedly yes
10:47:08 <cpressey> (For some value of "elegant")
10:54:45 <arseniiv> a while ago, a friend suggested that in a mathematical conlang we had a few ideas about, an empty set should be pronounced [ø]
10:56:20 <arseniiv> (though there were too few ideas to make a proof of concept, unfortunately, but this one idea is eso I think)
10:57:50 <arseniiv> there is one downside as otherwise ø might have been used in much more contexts and this designation constrained it much
11:17:51 <cpressey> I think most mathematical formulae would end up being rather awkward to pronounce no matter what phonology you assign to the symbols
11:41:45 <cpressey> "minus bee, plus or minus square root of, bee squared minus four ay see, all over two ay"
11:44:50 <cpressey> @pl qf a b c = (-1 * b + sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a)
11:44:51 <lambdabot> qf = ap (flip . ((flip . (((/) . negate) .)) .) . liftM2 (.) (+) . ((sqrt .) .) . flip ((.) . (-) . join (*)) . (*) . (4 *)) (2 *)
11:48:35 <rain1> hey
11:50:10 <cpressey> hi rain1
11:50:39 <rain1> I can explain the answer to my question
11:51:09 <rain1> I was interested in "Tot" being harder than "Halt". Definitions: Halt is the ability to tell if a turing machine halts. Tot is the ability to tell if a turing machine halts on all inputs.
11:51:46 <rain1> Using Halting oracles you can construct an infinite sequence of classes of hardness. TMs, TMs + Halt oracle, TMs + Halt1 oracle (they can tell if the level below halts), ...
11:52:10 <rain1> Halt lives on the second level, Tot lives on the 3rd
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11:53:48 <rain1> The thing we need to use to prove this is the arithmetic hierarchy
11:54:08 <rain1> I don't fully get this stuff yet
11:54:15 <rain1> but Sigma_2 and Pi_2 are two parts of the 3rd level
11:54:58 <rain1> they corresponds to sets defined by computable relations phi, like this: x is in the set iff Pi_2 is forall y, exists z, phi(x,y,z)
11:55:16 <rain1> and Sigma_2 is sets x is in the set iff Sigma_2 is exists y, forall z, phi(x,y,z)
11:55:58 <rain1> Now we can show that O'' is Sigma_2 complete, O''-complement is Pi_2 complete
11:56:22 <rain1> and Tot is Pi_2 complete
11:56:33 <rain1> the proofs of these are quite neat but i wont get into the details
11:56:42 <rain1> O'' is something to do with level 3?
11:57:01 <rain1> So there are some aspects of this I need to clarify but roughly speaking that is how its done
11:57:35 <rain1> I'm not sure how Sigma/Pi relate to decidable/semideciable/co-semidecidable sets
11:58:50 <rain1> also 2 interesting facts I picked up on this journey: there are partial computable functions that cannot be extended to total computable ones. There's degrees of undecidability between level0 (TMs) and TMs+Halt
11:58:57 <rain1> they are called "low degrees"
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12:09:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77420&oldid=77419 * Zero * (+257)
12:40:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77421&oldid=77197 * Amakukha * (+280) /* What version of LYaPAS are these symbols from? */ new section
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13:03:58 <cpressey> rain1: That there are partial computable functions that cannot be extended to total computable functions seems intuitive to me at least (the "missing parts" are not computable so how would one possibly "fix" them computably)
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13:10:44 <cpressey> The low degrees, I've heard of, but I don't remember anything about them
13:17:29 <cpressey> Vague recollection that the halting problem itself is low. Briefly looking at "Low basis theorem" on Wikipedia suggests that is the case.
13:20:36 <cpressey> And that there are "PA degrees" below the HP but it's unclear to me what they signify exactly.
13:35:05 <rain1> interesting stuffo n wiki
13:37:40 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77422&oldid=77420 * Zero * (-85)
13:39:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77423&oldid=77422 * Zero * (+57)
13:42:31 <b_jonas> cpressey: yes, any turing-complete function should be like that
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14:40:10 <kritixilithos> rain1: what is O'' ?
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14:40:41 <rain1> i will need to go over definitions a bit more
14:40:56 <rain1> but i think it's the set of sets which are turing equivalent to the 2nd halting problem
14:41:49 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: Ő
14:42:39 <kritixilithos> the proof isn't yours? where is it from then?
14:42:45 <b_jonas> as in a replacement for "Ő" when you can't type it for technical reasons back in the 2000s
14:43:59 <kritixilithos> b_jonas: i can't tell if you are being facetious or not
14:46:00 <b_jonas> lI am facetious
15:19:33 <rain1> https://risingentropy.com/the-arithmetic-hierarchy-and-computability/
15:22:44 <rain1> The Busy Beaver numbers are an example of a Δ2 set.
15:24:30 <rain1> In fact, the Busy Beaver numbers are even better than Δ2; they’re Π1, co-recursively enumerable
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15:37:30 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77424&oldid=77423 * Zero * (+6)
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15:44:10 <b_jonas> "a complete inventory of some items is available" hehe
15:48:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77425&oldid=77424 * Zero * (+28)
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16:09:09 <kritixilithos> looks like a cool blog, nice find
16:14:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77426 * Tetrapyronia * (+410) /* Brainf**k Translation */ new section
16:39:54 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77427&oldid=77350 * SunnyMoon * (-5) Wait, how?
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17:18:39 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77428&oldid=77427 * SunnyMoon * (-5) There is an infinite stack of inputs!
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19:22:33 <b_jonas> `ftoc 390
19:22:35 <HackEso> 390.00°F = 198.89°C
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20:56:38 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77429 * Woofmao * (+5384) Created page
21:08:44 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77430&oldid=77429 * Woofmao * (-3) typo
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21:52:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77431&oldid=77426 * Tetrapyronia * (-11)
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22:09:12 <b_jonas> `card-by-name mana cylix
22:09:13 <HackEso> Mana Cylix \ 1 \ Artifact \ {1}, {T}: Add one mana of any color. \ PS-U, CON-C
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23:04:10 <spruit11> Heh.
23:04:25 <spruit11> `card-by-name Teferi
23:04:25 <HackEso> Teferi's Care \ 2W \ Enchantment \ {W}, Sacrifice an enchantment: Destroy target enchantment. \ {3}{U}{U}: Counter target enchantment spell. \ IN-U \ \ Teferi's Curse \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant artifact or creature \ Enchanted permanent has phasing. (It phases in or out before its controller untaps during each of their untap steps. While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist.) \ MI-C \ \ Teferi's Drake \ 2U \ Cre
23:05:02 <spruit11> `card-by-name Shock
23:05:06 <HackEso> Shock \ R \ Instant \ Shock deals 2 damage to any target. \ ST-C, 6E-C, S00-C, 7E-C, ONS-C, 8ED-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, M12-C, M14-C, AER-C, DDN-C \ \ Shock Troops \ 3R \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/2 \ Sacrifice Shock Troops: It deals 2 damage to any target. \ MM-C, 8ED-C \ \ Shocker \ 1R \ Creature -- Insect \ 1/1 \ Whenever Shocker deals damage to a player, that player discards all the cards in their hand, then draws that many cards. \ TE-R \
23:05:28 <spruit11> `card-by-name Bolt
23:05:29 <HackEso> Bolt of Keranos \ 1RR \ Sorcery \ Bolt of Keranos deals 3 damage to any target. Scry 1. (Look at the top card of your library. You may put that card on the bottom of your library.) \ BNG-C \ \ Boltwing Marauder \ 3BR \ Creature -- Dragon \ 5/4 \ Flying \ Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, target creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn. \ DTK-R
23:05:41 <shachaf> `card-by-name Blightning
23:05:42 <HackEso> Blightning \ 1BR \ Sorcery \ Blightning deals 3 damage to target player or planeswalker. That player or that planeswalker's controller discards two cards. \ ALA-C, A25-U, DDK-C
23:05:48 <spruit11> `card-by-name Lightning Bolt
23:05:49 <HackEso> Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to any target. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, E01-U, A25-U, MED-C, PD2-C
23:07:29 <spruit11> Reading up on cmake. Unhappy. Did towers of Hanoi instead. https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/hanoi.eg
23:07:40 <spruit11> I'll get it right, somehow.
23:08:34 <shachaf> Is cmake good? Every time I need to use it it seems pretty unpleasant.
23:09:00 <spruit11> I have no clue. I know I want weird things from it so, no idea.
23:09:26 <spruit11> But people don't seem to like my makefile solution, and I was hoping for something portable.
23:14:18 <shachaf> How portable?
23:15:09 <b_jonas> spruit11: now you have two problems
23:15:12 <spruit11> Linuxes and maybe MacOs.
23:16:19 <spruit11> FreeBSD too, I guess.
23:16:28 <spruit11> Or uh BSDs.
23:18:45 <shachaf> Not Windows?
23:19:12 <shachaf> That seems relatively easy because all those systems are nearly the same.
23:19:19 <shachaf> You can use a shell script.
23:19:25 <spruit11> Nah. Not yet, anyway. If I magically somehow attract some users maybe.
23:19:41 <spruit11> I use make and two shell scripts at the moment.
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23:51:54 <zzo38> What I do is including the shell scripts for compiling at the top of each C code file.
23:58:44 <spruit11> That is the one way to go!
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